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Base paper

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  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
    Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively different sides. As the laid
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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      Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the
      opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively
      different sides. As the laid side is not VERY laid, the felt side is
      very near to completely smooth... that's what makes it so interesting
      and useful for so any purposes. The laid side shows the form's
      "ripples"(oh dear, I must get hold of my paper maker and ask him all
      the right words - do you understand what I mean by "ripples" and "felt
      side"?) in both directions as contrary to the Ingres that is rough but
      not much rippled. The 100gms-version feels much thinner than the 100gms
      Ingres because of an extra calandering.

      Susanne Krause
    • irisnevins
      Laid shows lines, vellum finish is smooth. I think ripples means the lines? I like the Ingres, but would use it for pre 1810 or so reproductions. I am leaning
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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        Laid shows lines, vellum finish is smooth. I think ripples means the lines?
        I like the Ingres, but would use it for pre 1810 or so reproductions. I am
        leaning towards Permalin for the usual 1820's and later style papers. They
        were smooth and polished....which can nowadays be done by hand if the
        bookbinder wishes. I never do it for anyone though, too much hard work!
        Sometimes I do my own with a flat agate burnisher and a little parafin to
        make it glide. Still not a shine like the later Victorian machine
        calendared papers.

        Iris Nevins



        Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
        >Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the
        opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively
        different sides. As the laid side is not VERY laid, the felt side is
        very near to completely smooth... that's what makes it so interesting
        and useful for so any purposes. The laid side shows the form's
        "ripples"(oh dear, I must get hold of my paper maker and ask him all
        the right words - do you understand what I mean by "ripples" and "felt
        side"?) in both directions as contrary to the Ingres that is rough but
        not much rippled. The 100gms-version feels much thinner than the 100gms
        Ingres because of an extra calandering.

        Susanne Krause<
      • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
        Yes, we re talking about the same things. I m using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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          Yes, we're talking about the same things.
          I'm using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and
          chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most 18th century match nicely
          with the smooth side of Natural Line or the 90gms vellum I'm using for
          most 19th century patterns. Alas, there are not many customers for hand
          made base paper, it's so great to work with for me as well as for the
          restorer or bookbinder, and it looks even greater.
          I don't do the polishing for my customers either. It's backbreaking
          work to do by hand, it was even a bore for those poor things who had to
          do it with the hanging stones of old. I recommend beeswax when I'm
          asked, it protects and can be adjusted to every degree of sheen. And
          every customer who has done it knows why I'm not accepting commissions
          for waxing.

          Susanne Krause
        • irisnevins
          Same for me....do you use regular beeswax or a certain product? Do you just buff with a cloth or actually burnish? I have great handheld burnishers for this,
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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            Same for me....do you use regular beeswax or a certain product? Do you just
            buff with a cloth or actually burnish? I have great handheld burnishers for
            this, but haven't managed to put them on the website yet. So little time,
            so much to do.
            Iris Nevins


            Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            >
            Yes, we're talking about the same things.
            I'm using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and
            chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most 18th century match nicely
            with the smooth side of Natural Line or the 90gms vellum I'm using for
            most 19th century patterns. Alas, there are not many customers for hand
            made base paper, it's so great to work with for me as well as for the
            restorer or bookbinder, and it looks even greater.
            I don't do the polishing for my customers either. It's backbreaking
            work to do by hand, it was even a bore for those poor things who had to
            do it with the hanging stones of old. I recommend beeswax when I'm
            asked, it protects and can be adjusted to every degree of sheen. And
            every customer who has done it knows why I'm not accepting commissions
            for waxing.

            Susanne Krause






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            Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:54:26 -0000
            Subject: [Marbling] Base paper
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            <
          • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
            To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I be= lieve):I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 14 7:59 AM
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              To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I be=
              lieve):

              I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on eve=
              nly but make a
              cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factory =
              and my supplier
              are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has any=
              one had the
              same results with a new lot?

              Susanne Krause
            • irisnevins
              Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it marbled just fine. Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 14 10:11 AM
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                Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it
                marbled just fine.
                Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
                Iris Nevins

                Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >
                To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I
                be=
                lieve):

                I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
                eve=
                nly but make a
                cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factory
                =
                and my supplier
                are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has
                any=
                one had the
                same results with a new lot?

                Susanne Krause<
              • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface, otherwise= they behave like they did before. It s the sprinkled ones I m having the problems
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 15 4:06 AM
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                  No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface, otherwise=
                  they behave
                  like they did before. It's the sprinkled ones I'm having the problems with,=
                  these paints
                  need very little binding medium and penetrate the base paper much deeper th=
                  an the
                  coloured paste for paste paper does. It's the "normal" laid version, one si=
                  de a bit smoother
                  than the other.
                  Oh well, it probably means I'll have to do what I have always tried to avoi=
                  d: having two
                  standard base papers instead of one.

                  Susanne Krause

                  --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                  > Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it
                  > marbled just fine.
                  > Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
                  > Iris Nevins
                  >
                  > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I
                  > be=
                  > lieve):
                  >
                  > I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
                  > eve=
                  > nly but make a
                  > cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factor=
                  y
                  > =
                  > and my supplier
                  > are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has
                  > any=
                  > one had the
                  > same results with a new lot?
                  >
                  > Susanne Krause<
                • irisnevins
                  Susanne......I suspect that paper makers, like commercial paint makers....the formula varies from one batch to the next due to laxness, I saw this over and
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 15 4:46 AM
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                    Susanne......I suspect that paper makers, like commercial paint
                    makers....the formula varies from one batch to the next due to laxness, I
                    saw this over and over in the gouaches I started originally marbling with.
                    When people , much to my surprise, started wanting to buy my papers back in
                    1978, I had to have consistency.....needed to be able to copy my own
                    papers. I would get tubes, particulary the red, and one batch would sink
                    without oxgall, the next would spread to pink and squeeze the other colors
                    to the bottom without any oxgall at all. I called Windsor Newton numerous
                    times and they insisted there was no change. I think maybe the workers
                    don't measure the ingredients accurately, but it is more haphazard at
                    times. So the only solution was to make a decades long study (at this
                    point) of marbling paint making.

                    I would try and talk further to Hahnemuelle. My distributor here, Atlantic
                    Papers, has guaranteed that if the papers ever don't work they will take
                    them back and have a chat with the makers. I will always request a test
                    sheet from the current batches these days before order thousands of sheets.
                    I am not so concerned about wasting money as I am about being able to
                    work!

                    Iris Nevins


                    Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface,
                    otherwise=
                    they behave
                    like they did before. It's the sprinkled ones I'm having the problems
                    with,=
                    these paints
                    need very little binding medium and penetrate the base paper much deeper
                    th=
                    an the
                    coloured paste for paste paper does. It's the "normal" laid version, one
                    si=
                    de a bit smoother
                    than the other.
                    Oh well, it probably means I'll have to do what I have always tried to
                    avoi=
                    d: having two
                    standard base papers instead of one.

                    Susanne Krause
                    <
                  • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                    I have been working with this particular sort as my standard since about 19= 95, I have survived all chemical changes of those years (pH etc.) without undue
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 15 11:34 AM
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                      I have been working with this particular sort as my standard since about 19=
                      95, I have
                      survived all chemical changes of those years (pH etc.) without undue troubl=
                      e. I looks like
                      this time I'm for it.
                      I suppose that, while the ingredients have not changed - Hahnemühle is cert=
                      ified and
                      therefore under surveillance, so major changes do not have much chance to p=
                      ass
                      unnoticed - minor changes within a certain limit are possible, and no one e=
                      xcept
                      decorated paper makers takes notice.

                      It has nothing to do with the paints, I think. They came from my own stock =
                      and look, smell
                      feel the same as always. No frost, no heat, no pests, dry and dark storage =
                      place.

                      The Kongress paper is unknown to me, at least by that name.

                      What seems an interesting explanation to me is that they have made the pape=
                      r machine
                      run quicker (suggested by another of my suppliers). That could indeed make =
                      the fibres
                      distribute unevenly, and every sq-cm of the paper receives less pressure du=
                      ring
                      calandering. It would fit with what I see.

                      Susanne Krause
                    • mpmh60201
                      Jake: I haven t heard of Kongress either. Perhaps you mean Ingres, made by Hahnemuhle? Milena
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 15 3:28 PM
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                        Jake:
                        I haven't heard of Kongress either. Perhaps you mean Ingres,
                        made by Hahnemuhle?
                        Milena
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