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[Marbling] Base paper

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  • irisnevins
    Thanks Susanne, I think rather than bother you with shipping I will call back the distributor here. I think if they carry the Ingres they must have the natural
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 15, 2003
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      Thanks Susanne, I think rather than bother you with shipping I will call
      back the distributor here. I think if they carry the Ingres they must have
      the natural too....is "velin" vellum here? Is it a smooth paper?

      Thanks,
      I.Nevins

      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      >
      Hi Iris - would you like samples of the Hahnemühle Natural Line I
      already told Joan Ajala (well, in public) about? Cheaper than the
      Hahnemühle Ingres - I'm paying Euro 253 for 2000 sheets 50/70cm - and a
      nice alternative, as it has two different surfaces, one of them very
      near to velin (very useful for working from historical models) and the
      other one slightly laid with the form's structure to be seen mote than
      with the Ingres. It works with pigments on carregheen, that's been
      expertly tested.

      Susanne Krause<
    • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
      Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively different sides. As the laid
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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        Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the
        opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively
        different sides. As the laid side is not VERY laid, the felt side is
        very near to completely smooth... that's what makes it so interesting
        and useful for so any purposes. The laid side shows the form's
        "ripples"(oh dear, I must get hold of my paper maker and ask him all
        the right words - do you understand what I mean by "ripples" and "felt
        side"?) in both directions as contrary to the Ingres that is rough but
        not much rippled. The 100gms-version feels much thinner than the 100gms
        Ingres because of an extra calandering.

        Susanne Krause
      • irisnevins
        Laid shows lines, vellum finish is smooth. I think ripples means the lines? I like the Ingres, but would use it for pre 1810 or so reproductions. I am leaning
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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          Laid shows lines, vellum finish is smooth. I think ripples means the lines?
          I like the Ingres, but would use it for pre 1810 or so reproductions. I am
          leaning towards Permalin for the usual 1820's and later style papers. They
          were smooth and polished....which can nowadays be done by hand if the
          bookbinder wishes. I never do it for anyone though, too much hard work!
          Sometimes I do my own with a flat agate burnisher and a little parafin to
          make it glide. Still not a shine like the later Victorian machine
          calendared papers.

          Iris Nevins



          Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          >Yes, I think velin could be the same as vellum, if vellum is the
          opposite of laid. The Natural Line paper has two distinctively
          different sides. As the laid side is not VERY laid, the felt side is
          very near to completely smooth... that's what makes it so interesting
          and useful for so any purposes. The laid side shows the form's
          "ripples"(oh dear, I must get hold of my paper maker and ask him all
          the right words - do you understand what I mean by "ripples" and "felt
          side"?) in both directions as contrary to the Ingres that is rough but
          not much rippled. The 100gms-version feels much thinner than the 100gms
          Ingres because of an extra calandering.

          Susanne Krause<
        • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
          Yes, we re talking about the same things. I m using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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            Yes, we're talking about the same things.
            I'm using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and
            chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most 18th century match nicely
            with the smooth side of Natural Line or the 90gms vellum I'm using for
            most 19th century patterns. Alas, there are not many customers for hand
            made base paper, it's so great to work with for me as well as for the
            restorer or bookbinder, and it looks even greater.
            I don't do the polishing for my customers either. It's backbreaking
            work to do by hand, it was even a bore for those poor things who had to
            do it with the hanging stones of old. I recommend beeswax when I'm
            asked, it protects and can be adjusted to every degree of sheen. And
            every customer who has done it knows why I'm not accepting commissions
            for waxing.

            Susanne Krause
          • irisnevins
            Same for me....do you use regular beeswax or a certain product? Do you just buff with a cloth or actually burnish? I have great handheld burnishers for this,
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 16, 2003
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              Same for me....do you use regular beeswax or a certain product? Do you just
              buff with a cloth or actually burnish? I have great handheld burnishers for
              this, but haven't managed to put them on the website yet. So little time,
              so much to do.
              Iris Nevins


              Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              >
              Yes, we're talking about the same things.
              I'm using the Ingres almost exclusively for the inside of cupboards and
              chests from 1840/1850 or thereabouts. Most 18th century match nicely
              with the smooth side of Natural Line or the 90gms vellum I'm using for
              most 19th century patterns. Alas, there are not many customers for hand
              made base paper, it's so great to work with for me as well as for the
              restorer or bookbinder, and it looks even greater.
              I don't do the polishing for my customers either. It's backbreaking
              work to do by hand, it was even a bore for those poor things who had to
              do it with the hanging stones of old. I recommend beeswax when I'm
              asked, it protects and can be adjusted to every degree of sheen. And
              every customer who has done it knows why I'm not accepting commissions
              for waxing.

              Susanne Krause






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              Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 12:54:26 -0000
              Subject: [Marbling] Base paper
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              <
            • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
              To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I be= lieve):I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 14, 2004
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                To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I be=
                lieve):

                I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on eve=
                nly but make a
                cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factory =
                and my supplier
                are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has any=
                one had the
                same results with a new lot?

                Susanne Krause
              • irisnevins
                Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it marbled just fine. Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 14, 2004
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                  Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it
                  marbled just fine.
                  Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
                  Iris Nevins

                  Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I
                  be=
                  lieve):

                  I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
                  eve=
                  nly but make a
                  cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factory
                  =
                  and my supplier
                  are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has
                  any=
                  one had the
                  same results with a new lot?

                  Susanne Krause<
                • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                  No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface, otherwise= they behave like they did before. It s the sprinkled ones I m having the problems
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                    No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface, otherwise=
                    they behave
                    like they did before. It's the sprinkled ones I'm having the problems with,=
                    these paints
                    need very little binding medium and penetrate the base paper much deeper th=
                    an the
                    coloured paste for paste paper does. It's the "normal" laid version, one si=
                    de a bit smoother
                    than the other.
                    Oh well, it probably means I'll have to do what I have always tried to avoi=
                    d: having two
                    standard base papers instead of one.

                    Susanne Krause

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, irisnevins <irisnevins@c...> wrote:
                    > Is that for paste paper.....I just sampled a new lot of NaturText and it
                    > marbled just fine.
                    > Hmmmmm, better not be more paper trouble. Is it a smooth paper?
                    > Iris Nevins
                    >
                    > Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > To those among you who use Hahnemühle Natural Line (Natural Tex in US, I
                    > be=
                    > lieve):
                    >
                    > I am having an ugly problem with the last lot; paints cannot brushed on
                    > eve=
                    > nly but make a
                    > cloudy, "boggy" appearance. The surface is dull and flat. Both the factor=
                    y
                    > =
                    > and my supplier
                    > are searching for reasons, while claiming nothing has been changed. Has
                    > any=
                    > one had the
                    > same results with a new lot?
                    >
                    > Susanne Krause<
                  • irisnevins
                    Susanne......I suspect that paper makers, like commercial paint makers....the formula varies from one batch to the next due to laxness, I saw this over and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                      Susanne......I suspect that paper makers, like commercial paint
                      makers....the formula varies from one batch to the next due to laxness, I
                      saw this over and over in the gouaches I started originally marbling with.
                      When people , much to my surprise, started wanting to buy my papers back in
                      1978, I had to have consistency.....needed to be able to copy my own
                      papers. I would get tubes, particulary the red, and one batch would sink
                      without oxgall, the next would spread to pink and squeeze the other colors
                      to the bottom without any oxgall at all. I called Windsor Newton numerous
                      times and they insisted there was no change. I think maybe the workers
                      don't measure the ingredients accurately, but it is more haphazard at
                      times. So the only solution was to make a decades long study (at this
                      point) of marbling paint making.

                      I would try and talk further to Hahnemuelle. My distributor here, Atlantic
                      Papers, has guaranteed that if the papers ever don't work they will take
                      them back and have a chat with the makers. I will always request a test
                      sheet from the current batches these days before order thousands of sheets.
                      I am not so concerned about wasting money as I am about being able to
                      work!

                      Iris Nevins


                      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      No, the paste paper sheets are just a bit rougher on the surface,
                      otherwise=
                      they behave
                      like they did before. It's the sprinkled ones I'm having the problems
                      with,=
                      these paints
                      need very little binding medium and penetrate the base paper much deeper
                      th=
                      an the
                      coloured paste for paste paper does. It's the "normal" laid version, one
                      si=
                      de a bit smoother
                      than the other.
                      Oh well, it probably means I'll have to do what I have always tried to
                      avoi=
                      d: having two
                      standard base papers instead of one.

                      Susanne Krause
                      <
                    • hamburgerbuntpapier_de
                      I have been working with this particular sort as my standard since about 19= 95, I have survived all chemical changes of those years (pH etc.) without undue
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                        I have been working with this particular sort as my standard since about 19=
                        95, I have
                        survived all chemical changes of those years (pH etc.) without undue troubl=
                        e. I looks like
                        this time I'm for it.
                        I suppose that, while the ingredients have not changed - Hahnemühle is cert=
                        ified and
                        therefore under surveillance, so major changes do not have much chance to p=
                        ass
                        unnoticed - minor changes within a certain limit are possible, and no one e=
                        xcept
                        decorated paper makers takes notice.

                        It has nothing to do with the paints, I think. They came from my own stock =
                        and look, smell
                        feel the same as always. No frost, no heat, no pests, dry and dark storage =
                        place.

                        The Kongress paper is unknown to me, at least by that name.

                        What seems an interesting explanation to me is that they have made the pape=
                        r machine
                        run quicker (suggested by another of my suppliers). That could indeed make =
                        the fibres
                        distribute unevenly, and every sq-cm of the paper receives less pressure du=
                        ring
                        calandering. It would fit with what I see.

                        Susanne Krause
                      • mpmh60201
                        Jake: I haven t heard of Kongress either. Perhaps you mean Ingres, made by Hahnemuhle? Milena
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 15, 2004
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                          Jake:
                          I haven't heard of Kongress either. Perhaps you mean Ingres,
                          made by Hahnemuhle?
                          Milena
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