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re. message #1805

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  • mpmh60201
    Would be interested in comments on the site mentioned. Seems this has all been said, shown, etc., before. Perhaps this person does not know this??? There are
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 1, 2003
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      Would be interested in comments on the site mentioned.
      Seems this has all been said, shown, etc., before. Perhaps this
      person does not know this??? There are masterful books out
      there on traditional Turkish marbling! However, the site does
      open a little window for the novice to peak in. And I certainly
      agree...the words "Traditional Turkish Marbling" have been
      abused far too long by authors and marblers alike!

      However, I take offense to the statement that using alum is not
      marbling. Perhaps not traditional Turksih marbling, but far
      superior in results for exceptional marbled images that surpass
      what the old masters attempted with minimal materials. We all
      learn from the masters, then branch out to create our own work.
      That is what being an "ARTIST" is all about.
    • Tevfik Alparslan BABAOGLU
      If you read the English home page of www.geleneksel-ebru.com , you can see that I DON T CLAIM TO SAY ANYTHING NEW. Your manner in addressing a person without
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 18, 2003
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        If you read the English home page of www.geleneksel-ebru.com , you
        can see that I DON'T CLAIM TO SAY ANYTHING NEW. Your manner in
        addressing a person without using his name but just simply
        saying "this person" seems to me a little bit inappropriate. When I
        was in England in 70's, we used to address people by using "Mr/Mrs"
        etc.

        The books on Traditional Turkish Marbling you mention tell nothing
        about the tradition (This is true if we assume that I know my
        tradition better than you do)

        From your statement " using alum is not marbling. Perhaps not
        traditional Turksih marbling" below, I understand that you accept the
        existence of a traditional Turkish Mrbling". If this is true, why are
        you so aggressive on the people who try to keep their tradition ?

        As you clearly understood, "using alum is not marbling" has been used
        for traditional Turkish Marbling.

        You can create your own style noone can object this but please don't
        shadow on the people who try to perform this art according to their
        tradition.

        I am trying to understand the reason for your aggressiveness on this
        matter but cannot find an answer.

        I will write an answer to your letter


        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "mpmh60201" <milena@i...> wrote:
        > Would be interested in comments on the site mentioned.
        > Seems this has all been said, shown, etc., before. Perhaps this
        > person does not know this??? There are masterful books out
        > there on traditional Turkish marbling! However, the site does
        > open a little window for the novice to peak in. And I certainly
        > agree...the words "Traditional Turkish Marbling" have been
        > abused far too long by authors and marblers alike!
        >
        > However, I take offense to the statement that using alum is not
        > marbling. Perhaps not traditional Turksih marbling, but far
        > superior in results for exceptional marbled images that surpass
        > what the old masters attempted with minimal materials. We all
        > learn from the masters, then branch out to create our own work.
        > That is what being an "ARTIST" is all about.
      • Tevfik Alparslan BABAOGLU
        Hi everybody, I am sorry for taking your time but I felt to clarify some points in message no. 1806 In her mail, Mrs.Hughes comments on www.geleneksel-ebru.com
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 19, 2003
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          Hi everybody,

          I am sorry for taking your time but I felt to clarify some points in
          message no. 1806

          In her mail, Mrs.Hughes comments on www.geleneksel-ebru.com and says
          that "Seems this has all been said, shown, etc., before. Perhaps this
          person does not know this???"

          Although I don't claim to say anything new, there are a couple of
          things which should have attracted her attention but somehow she
          missed out ( perhaps she didn't like to see them ).

          1. There is a miniature in the gallery, "Cem Sultan" which has been
          made by marbling a single paper 9 times using 9 different stencils. I
          will be very pleased if someone, especially Mrs.Hughes as an
          authority and ARTIST (She writes this word in upper case letters !!! )

          2. In the gallery, there is a battal ebru made by using 23 carat
          real gold. I would again be very pleased if someone could name me an
          example of an ebru made by using gold which shines ! ! !

          3. I remember people discussing how to make Tiger's Eye in this
          platform couple of months ago. In the gallery of www.geleneksel-
          ebru.com , you can see an example of a Tiger's Eye uploaded there a
          year ago.

          4. The details of the calligraphies give an idea of the excellency
          of the stencil technique used but she doesn't comment on them.

          In her mail, Mrs. Hughes says "There are masterful books out
          there on traditional Turkish marbling! However, the site does
          open a little window for the novice to peak in."

          For her to be able to say that, she must know the tradition in
          Turkish Marbling. I have been an apprentice of late Mustafa DUZGUNMAN
          for the last 5 years of his life and received a certificate signed by
          him exhibited in www.geleneksel-ebru.com which gives me the right,
          according to our tradition, to perform and teach TRADITIONAL TURKISH
          MARBLING. I challenge Mrs.Hughes to discuss the Turkish tradition in
          marbling ! ! !

          The books on Traditional Turkish Marbling she mentions give
          information like shish kebap or sushi served in a Traditional
          American Restaurant, nothing more Turkish ! ! !

          In turkish Tradition, alum is NOT used and the words "using alum is
          not marbling" are direct translation of the Turkish content and didn't
          mean to address the western technique. As a marbler who also use the
          western technique from time to time I am sorry for the misleading
          translation.

          I don't agree with the statement "far superior in results for
          exceptional marbled images that surpass . . ." and I insist that if
          one is able to very accurately adjust the amount of ox gall in the
          dyes, he/she creates images with the same resolution as if alum is
          used.

          Thanks for your time and patience if you reached this line.

          Friendly regards,

          Alparslan BABAOGLU
        • Tevfik Alparslan BABAOGLU
          The paragraph no.1 should be read as : 1. There is a miniature in the gallery, Cem Sultan which has been made by marbling a single paper 9 times using 9
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 19, 2003
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            The paragraph no.1 should be read as :

            1. There is a miniature in the gallery, "Cem Sultan" which has been
            made by marbling a single paper 9 times using 9 different stencils. I
            will be very pleased if someone, especially Mrs.Hughes as an
            authority and ARTIST (She writes this word in upper case letters !!! )
            name me an example of a miniature made with 9 stencils either Daccan
            or contemporary.

            Sorry for the inconvenience ! ! !

            Alparslan
          • mpmh60201
            I never stated that I was an authority on marbling. I have very little knowledge on true historic tradition, because so much has been distorted over the
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 21, 2003
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              I never stated that I was an authority on marbling.
              I have very little knowledge on "true" historic tradition, because
              so much has been distorted over the centuries. Jake Benson
              made strong mention of this at our marbling conference in 2002.
              What I do know is that I have been a full time professional
              ARTIST for over forty years (that is, I earn my living this way),
              using marbling enhancement twenty of those years. If I'm an
              aurthority on anything...it is my own artwork of which I have true
              knowledge.

              I respect tradition, yet feel the need not to follow in past
              footsteps. My work comes from my soul, not a book or instructor.
              (By the way, I exhibited with Mustafa Duzgunman twice in the
              USA, as his equal, not as a student.)
            • J Dolphin
              For Tevfik and Milena---I am certainly glad we have a world wide web out here where you can both enlighten and challenge each other--to go forward in the ways
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 21, 2003
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                For Tevfik and Milena---I am certainly glad we have a world wide web out
                here where you can both enlighten and challenge each other--to go forward in
                the ways of marbling. I appreciate both your points of view as I am certain
                other readers on the list also do. Obviously you have differences that may
                not be resolved or perhaps you both find a bridge to build towards greater
                understanding of each other's work.
                Jill

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "mpmh60201" <milena@...>
                To: <Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 7:46 PM
                Subject: [Marbling] Re: Sorry a correction ! ! !


                > I never stated that I was an authority on marbling.
                > I have very little knowledge on "true" historic tradition, because
                > so much has been distorted over the centuries. Jake Benson
                > made strong mention of this at our marbling conference in 2002.
                > What I do know is that I have been a full time professional
                > ARTIST for over forty years (that is, I earn my living this way),
                > using marbling enhancement twenty of those years. If I'm an
                > aurthority on anything...it is my own artwork of which I have true
                > knowledge.
                >
                > I respect tradition, yet feel the need not to follow in past
                > footsteps. My work comes from my soul, not a book or instructor.
                > (By the way, I exhibited with Mustafa Duzgunman twice in the
                > USA, as his equal, not as a student.)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Carol Scott
                Maybe we marblers should all reflect on what we do, and its importance to ourselves and to others, presently and in the future. My opinion about my own
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 21, 2003
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                  Maybe we marblers should all reflect on what we do, and its importance
                  to ourselves and to others, presently and in the future. My opinion
                  about my own marbling, is that I get a lot of enjoyment making
                  "decorative papers", and seeing incremental improvements in both
                  technique and end result. However I am aware that we humans have been
                  on earth, but a split second compared, to the existence of the universe.
                  Quite frankly I doubt my marbling will matter in another 100 years, let
                  alone in another 20 billion years. So lets enjoy what we do, and
                  appreciate what others bring to marbling whether its ebru marbling,
                  nontraditional marbling, or marbling with shaving cream.



                  Carol Scott



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: mpmh60201 [mailto:milena@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2003 6:47 PM
                  To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Marbling] Re: Sorry a correction ! ! !



                  I never stated that I was an authority on marbling.
                  I have very little knowledge on "true" historic tradition, because
                  so much has been distorted over the centuries. Jake Benson
                  made strong mention of this at our marbling conference in 2002.
                  What I do know is that I have been a full time professional
                  ARTIST for over forty years (that is, I earn my living this way),
                  using marbling enhancement twenty of those years. If I'm an
                  aurthority on anything...it is my own artwork of which I have true
                  knowledge.

                  I respect tradition, yet feel the need not to follow in past
                  footsteps. My work comes from my soul, not a book or instructor.
                  (By the way, I exhibited with Mustafa Duzgunman twice in the
                  USA, as his equal, not as a student.)










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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • T.Alparslan BABAOGLU
                  You have written your comments in such a way that people who read them would think that you are an authority on ebru and its tradition. I am glad to hear that
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 22, 2003
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                    You have written your comments in such a way that people who read them would
                    think that you are an authority on ebru and its tradition.
                    I am glad to hear that you are not an authority on traditional Turkish ebru
                    but respect tradition.

                    Having your work exhibitied in the USA with the work of Mustafa DUZGUNMAN
                    does NOT mean any equality with him. Mustafa DUZGUNMAN hasn't even passed
                    from the Anatolian side to the European side of Istanbul for the last 15
                    years of his life. Your work may have been exhibited side by side with his
                    work which have been brought to the States by anybody. People who bought his
                    ebrus exhibited them all around the world without his knowledge and approval
                    for years. That does NOT mean you are his equal.
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: mpmh60201 [mailto:milena@...]
                    Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 2:47 AM
                    To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Marbling] Re: Sorry a correction ! ! !


                    I never stated that I was an authority on marbling.
                    I have very little knowledge on "true" historic tradition, because
                    so much has been distorted over the centuries. Jake Benson
                    made strong mention of this at our marbling conference in 2002.
                    What I do know is that I have been a full time professional
                    ARTIST for over forty years (that is, I earn my living this way),
                    using marbling enhancement twenty of those years. If I'm an
                    aurthority on anything...it is my own artwork of which I have true
                    knowledge.

                    I respect tradition, yet feel the need not to follow in past
                    footsteps. My work comes from my soul, not a book or instructor.
                    (By the way, I exhibited with Mustafa Duzgunman twice in the
                    USA, as his equal, not as a student.)






                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    ADVERTISEMENT




                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • irisnevins
                    Great idea.....room for everyone. Personally, I am a split personality.....many of you know I am a die-hard traditionalist in regard to historical
                    Message 9 of 9 , Aug 22, 2003
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                      Great idea.....room for everyone. Personally, I am a split
                      personality.....many of you know I am a die-hard traditionalist in regard
                      to historical bookbinding papers. I respect all traditions, am in awe of
                      the Turkish techniques and marbling, which according the histories was the
                      basis for the later bookpapers. The early manuals on bookbinding and
                      marbling, from the 1700's and into the 1800's do not often mention alum.
                      They also do not often mention even rinsing a paper. I have gotten "it" in
                      regards to my paint manufacture, to where they do not need rinsing if
                      worked with properly. I have had other marblers tell me I cannot do that
                      and it is wrong, yet every year teach my students this technique. And the
                      papers last and last....I have seen no deterioration from not rinsing in
                      decades old papers. I do weaken my alum solution though I must
                      admit.....maybe half the usual amount in most cases. Summertime seems to
                      demand a little more for some reason. So many times I have been told I am
                      wrong, but it works for me.

                      But on the other hand, the other part of my marbling personality...
                      believes traditions evolve.....we can move on and find things that work
                      better or are easier to use, and give the same results. For example, I get
                      the best stormont patterns using a half full squeeze bottle instead of the
                      traditional whisk or brush. I do not understand why, but suspect that you
                      can shake air into the paint while applying color. So i do it this way now.
                      Do I forget the old manuals that say to knock your brush on a rod? No, I
                      always remember where things came from.

                      The alum free paper I have yet to conquer! How I would LOVE to skip this
                      step!!!! None of us revel in the joys of aluming! I suspect the ability to
                      not use alum has much to do with the way the paints are made from the
                      pigments, the color adjustment etc. maybe the paper is a factor, I do not
                      know enough about the traditional Turkish techniques to even guess. I am
                      howvwer in awe of them. I would love to learn, everything from step one
                      with raw pigments. Someday when I have more time and can stop being a
                      "human marbling machine" I would love to study these techniques deeply. For
                      now I must focus on production papers, not art, as a means to live, though
                      I do the occasional art piece for fun or for gifts.....that I love.

                      Many would say the production papers are art. I think of them more as
                      artifact, a useful object to embellish the book. They are beautiful
                      individually and a s a historic pattern of course, but after you've hit
                      over 100 of the same paper on a day you are a little burnt out, I am not at
                      the tray thinking about the beauty of my creations by any means, or even
                      thinking of myself as an artist, those times I am more a technician. There
                      is great satisfaction in being a good technician though, pattern matching,
                      even your own work is very difficult as many of you know. But I feel
                      blessed, very lucky, to have totally accidentally fallen into this line of
                      work 25+ years ago. I have met many wonderful people from many different
                      places and respect all their work. Our differences make it so much more
                      interesting....and I just want to know everything about all of it!

                      Iris Nevins
                      (PS...news of the upcoming art exhibit will be posted at website,
                      www.marblingpaper.com.....hope the locals will come to the opening 11/7)


                      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      >Maybe we marblers should all reflect on what we do, and its importance
                      to ourselves and to others, presently and in the future. My opinion
                      about my own marbling, is that I get a lot of enjoyment making
                      "decorative papers", and seeing incremental improvements in both
                      technique and end result. However I am aware that we humans have been
                      on earth, but a split second compared, to the existence of the universe.
                      Quite frankly I doubt my marbling will matter in another 100 years, let
                      alone in another 20 billion years. So lets enjoy what we do, and
                      appreciate what others bring to marbling whether its ebru marbling,
                      nontraditional marbling, or marbling with shaving cream.<
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