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alum

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  • Marjorie Priser
    Can some one tell me about alum. The instructions that I have for marbling with Liquitex acrylics indicates that alum from the grocery is quite OK. ...
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 24, 2000
      Can some one tell me about alum. The instructions that I have for marbling
      with Liquitex acrylics indicates that alum from the grocery is quite OK.
      >From what I can understand, others do not recommend that TYPE of alum. What
      exactly is the difference AND what does that difference produce in effect on
      the paper?
      THANKS in advance for any help with this question.
      Marge Priser
      http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~kosco
    • John Ang
      This is not a question about alum, but since Liquitex acrylic was mentioned, I wonder who has experience using Liquitex acrylics with regards to paper
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 26, 2000
        This is not a question about alum, but since Liquitex acrylic was
        mentioned, I wonder who has experience using Liquitex acrylics with
        regards to paper marbling. I tried to use Liquitex for marbling but
        the colors seem to end up being pale. I use Liqutex that comes in jar
        form (medium viscocity).

        I suspect I did not shake the bottle well enough. Should I open the
        jar top and throughly stir the acrylic (so that the binder and
        pigment are throughly mixed) or shake the bottle longer? Or maybe the
        pale color came from adding too much water and Liquitex flow-aid.

        Maybe should I abandon Liquitex altogether and try other arcylic or
        fabric paint such as Setasilk etc. Anyone has experience using
        Setasilk by Phoebe or Maruba fabric paint.


        > Can some one tell me about alum. The instructions that I have for
        marbling
        > with Liquitex acrylics indicates that alum from the grocery is
        quite OK.
      • irisnevins
        thanks Vi..... Guess next week s experiment will be to see if increasing alum helps....now Don made a case I believe for alum being a preservative, not a
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 16 5:04 AM
          thanks Vi.....

          Guess next week's experiment will be to see if increasing alum helps....now
          Don made a case I believe for alum being a preservative, not a destroyer of
          papers as I recall.....before anyone gets worried about the evils of alum.
          Do you remember exactly what he had found? As memory serves me (likely not
          well due to eating alum!) at the Baltimore gathering he said the papers
          that had been alumed outlived the ones that had not...but I forget why.
          Some say it rots fabric.

          more unknowns, eh? fun....NOT!
          Iris

          Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
          >Hi Iris

          Don't throw out your stock of Classic laid and linen. This problem of
          buffering is one I have been dealing with for ages, and have come up with a

          few strategies. Leave the paper open to the air for a while. I have a
          theory that when opened, the paper absorbs some of the impurities in the
          atmosphere which seem not to be detrimental to the marbling process.

          When I opened a pack of linen (not classic) the colours simply would not
          hold on the surface. When I tried it again a couple of months later, it
          was definitely better, though not perfect. The dark ridge of colour along
          the bottom of the paper is something I get quite often. This pack of linen

          also left a white deposit on the surface. Iris, I know its a pain, but
          when I have paper that reacts this way, I wipe over the surface of the
          paper with a dry cloth before I lay it down. This step removes the loose
          substance (which I believe absorbs the colour thus preventing it from
          adhering to the paper surface underneath) from the surface of the
          paper. And because this is a dust, perhaps a mask is necessary.

          A few years ago, Don Guyot was in despair over a pack of Crane's distaff
          linen he had bought and had colours running off. I brought some back to
          Australia with me, and had no trouble marbling it. When I was there on a
          later visit I did a test for him. Alummed the paper, left it for half an
          hour, then marbled it. Great! We alummed another couple of sheets, went
          out for lunch, and when we came back marbled those sheets. Colour washed
          off in patches. He kept the pack and marbled the sheets sooner after
          alumming.

          Different coloured papers also react differently. I had some papers tested

          recently for their pH. Grey Oxford was much more acid than Ivory
          Oxford. I have a pH pen and check the acidity of papers, which gives me a
          guide as to how I should deal with them - ie like marbling them sooner
          after alumming. I don't always sponge papers. However, on papers that
          throw a white substance, I think sponging them can contribute to the uneven

          distribution of colour on the sheet. Alumming by laying down (as you would

          paper on the size) on the alum solution, gives a more even result with the
          alumming, but also a more even result when the colour washes off!! It is
          for this reason that I wipe them over with a cloth.

          Another suggestion is to slightly increase the strength of the alum. I
          agree with your comments about acidity. A slightly acid paper works
          infinitely better than one which is heavily buffered. It is a bit like
          everything else these days. You have to wonder sometimes if the baby is
          being thrown out with the bathwater.

          Calcium carbonate and alum are definitely not compatible. Another
          buffering material is AKD alkylketenedimer (sp.?) composition of which is
          unknown, but almost certainly contains calcium carbonate.

          I realize with the production marbling you do, it is an inconvenience to
          have to make adjustments to a routine you have developed. I wish I could
          give you a magic solution. Guess I am prepared to make the adjustments
          since I do not do production marbling.

          Incidentally, the Classic linen you kindly gave me after the Gathering,
          marbles beautifully. It has been tucked in my paper shelf for a year!

          Best
          Vi<
        • gretchen vansant
          It does Rot Fabric.... irisnevins wrote:thanks Vi..... Guess next week s experiment will be to see if increasing alum helps....now
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 16 9:43 AM
            It does Rot Fabric....

            irisnevins <irisnevins@...> wrote:thanks Vi.....

            Guess next week's experiment will be to see if increasing alum helps....now
            Don made a case I believe for alum being a preservative, not a destroyer of
            papers as I recall.....before anyone gets worried about the evils of alum.
            Do you remember exactly what he had found? As memory serves me (likely not
            well due to eating alum!) at the Baltimore gathering he said the papers
            that had been alumed outlived the ones that had not...but I forget why.
            Some say it rots fabric.

            more unknowns, eh? fun....NOT!
            Iris

            Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
            >Hi Iris

            Don't throw out your stock of Classic laid and linen. This problem of
            buffering is one I have been dealing with for ages, and have come up with a

            few strategies. Leave the paper open to the air for a while. I have a
            theory that when opened, the paper absorbs some of the impurities in the
            atmosphere which seem not to be detrimental to the marbling process.

            When I opened a pack of linen (not classic) the colours simply would not
            hold on the surface. When I tried it again a couple of months later, it
            was definitely better, though not perfect. The dark ridge of colour along
            the bottom of the paper is something I get quite often. This pack of linen

            also left a white deposit on the surface. Iris, I know its a pain, but
            when I have paper that reacts this way, I wipe over the surface of the
            paper with a dry cloth before I lay it down. This step removes the loose
            substance (which I believe absorbs the colour thus preventing it from
            adhering to the paper surface underneath) from the surface of the
            paper. And because this is a dust, perhaps a mask is necessary.

            A few years ago, Don Guyot was in despair over a pack of Crane's distaff
            linen he had bought and had colours running off. I brought some back to
            Australia with me, and had no trouble marbling it. When I was there on a
            later visit I did a test for him. Alummed the paper, left it for half an
            hour, then marbled it. Great! We alummed another couple of sheets, went
            out for lunch, and when we came back marbled those sheets. Colour washed
            off in patches. He kept the pack and marbled the sheets sooner after
            alumming.

            Different coloured papers also react differently. I had some papers tested

            recently for their pH. Grey Oxford was much more acid than Ivory
            Oxford. I have a pH pen and check the acidity of papers, which gives me a
            guide as to how I should deal with them - ie like marbling them sooner
            after alumming. I don't always sponge papers. However, on papers that
            throw a white substance, I think sponging them can contribute to the uneven

            distribution of colour on the sheet. Alumming by laying down (as you would

            paper on the size) on the alum solution, gives a more even result with the
            alumming, but also a more even result when the colour washes off!! It is
            for this reason that I wipe them over with a cloth.

            Another suggestion is to slightly increase the strength of the alum. I
            agree with your comments about acidity. A slightly acid paper works
            infinitely better than one which is heavily buffered. It is a bit like
            everything else these days. You have to wonder sometimes if the baby is
            being thrown out with the bathwater.

            Calcium carbonate and alum are definitely not compatible. Another
            buffering material is AKD alkylketenedimer (sp.?) composition of which is
            unknown, but almost certainly contains calcium carbonate.

            I realize with the production marbling you do, it is an inconvenience to
            have to make adjustments to a routine you have developed. I wish I could
            give you a magic solution. Guess I am prepared to make the adjustments
            since I do not do production marbling.

            Incidentally, the Classic linen you kindly gave me after the Gathering,
            marbles beautifully. It has been tucked in my paper shelf for a year!

            Best
            Vi<


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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Franklyn Smith
            What Don said is that the aluminum in the alum (aluminum sulphate, magnesium aluminum sulphate or potassium aluminum suplphate, never ammonium sulphate which
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 17 4:48 AM
              What Don said is that the aluminum in the alum (aluminum sulphate,
              magnesium aluminum sulphate or potassium aluminum suplphate, never
              ammonium sulphate which has no aluminum - but I am sure you know all
              that) combines with the glychocolic acid in the oxgall to form aluminum
              glycolate which is benign and that any free alum has been washed off in
              washing the paper. It is the free alum which deteriorates the paper.

              I do sponge the alum (as taught by Don) because I want the minimum
              possible to be absorbed by the paper. If you dip or soak paper in the
              alum solution they absorb much more than with sponging.

              With the alum rosin sizing which was so destructive of paper, the rosin
              was the major destructive element.

              Are you adding the alum to boiling water, in which case there is almost
              no time while it is in the form of crystals? I dilute after it is
              dissolved in the boiling water (again as taught by Don).

              Shelagh Smith

              -----Original Message-----
              From: irisnevins [mailto:IrisNevins@...]
              Sent: September 16, 2003 8:04 AM
              To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Marbling] alum


              thanks Vi.....

              Guess next week's experiment will be to see if increasing alum
              helps....now Don made a case I believe for alum being a preservative,
              not a destroyer of papers as I recall.....before anyone gets worried
              about the evils of alum. Do you remember exactly what he had found? As
              memory serves me (likely not well due to eating alum!) at the Baltimore
              gathering he said the papers that had been alumed outlived the ones that
              had not...but I forget why. Some say it rots fabric.

              more unknowns, eh? fun....NOT!
              Iris

              Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
              >Hi Iris

              Don't throw out your stock of Classic laid and linen. This problem of
              buffering is one I have been dealing with for ages, and have come up
              with a

              few strategies. Leave the paper open to the air for a while. I have a
              theory that when opened, the paper absorbs some of the impurities in the

              atmosphere which seem not to be detrimental to the marbling process.

              When I opened a pack of linen (not classic) the colours simply would
              not
              hold on the surface. When I tried it again a couple of months later, it

              was definitely better, though not perfect. The dark ridge of colour
              along
              the bottom of the paper is something I get quite often. This pack of
              linen

              also left a white deposit on the surface. Iris, I know its a pain, but
              when I have paper that reacts this way, I wipe over the surface of the
              paper with a dry cloth before I lay it down. This step removes the
              loose
              substance (which I believe absorbs the colour thus preventing it from
              adhering to the paper surface underneath) from the surface of the
              paper. And because this is a dust, perhaps a mask is necessary.

              A few years ago, Don Guyot was in despair over a pack of Crane's distaff

              linen he had bought and had colours running off. I brought some back to

              Australia with me, and had no trouble marbling it. When I was there on
              a
              later visit I did a test for him. Alummed the paper, left it for half
              an
              hour, then marbled it. Great! We alummed another couple of sheets,
              went
              out for lunch, and when we came back marbled those sheets. Colour
              washed
              off in patches. He kept the pack and marbled the sheets sooner after
              alumming.

              Different coloured papers also react differently. I had some papers
              tested

              recently for their pH. Grey Oxford was much more acid than Ivory
              Oxford. I have a pH pen and check the acidity of papers, which gives me
              a
              guide as to how I should deal with them - ie like marbling them sooner
              after alumming. I don't always sponge papers. However, on papers that
              throw a white substance, I think sponging them can contribute to the
              uneven

              distribution of colour on the sheet. Alumming by laying down (as you
              would

              paper on the size) on the alum solution, gives a more even result with
              the
              alumming, but also a more even result when the colour washes off!! It
              is
              for this reason that I wipe them over with a cloth.

              Another suggestion is to slightly increase the strength of the alum. I
              agree with your comments about acidity. A slightly acid paper works
              infinitely better than one which is heavily buffered. It is a bit like
              everything else these days. You have to wonder sometimes if the baby is

              being thrown out with the bathwater.

              Calcium carbonate and alum are definitely not compatible. Another
              buffering material is AKD alkylketenedimer (sp.?) composition of which
              is
              unknown, but almost certainly contains calcium carbonate.

              I realize with the production marbling you do, it is an inconvenience to

              have to make adjustments to a routine you have developed. I wish I
              could
              give you a magic solution. Guess I am prepared to make the adjustments
              since I do not do production marbling.

              Incidentally, the Classic linen you kindly gave me after the Gathering,
              marbles beautifully. It has been tucked in my paper shelf for a year!

              Best
              Vi<





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            • irisnevins
              Thanks...shall file this....I sponge lightly and quickly....to soak or sponge with soppy sponge creates too many buckles to deal with anyway. As far as I know
              Message 6 of 19 , Sep 17 5:07 AM
                Thanks...shall file this....I sponge lightly and quickly....to soak or
                sponge with soppy sponge creates too many buckles to deal with anyway.

                As far as I know isn't rosin still extensively used as a sizing?
                Iris Nevins

                Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                >
                What Don said is that the aluminum in the alum (aluminum sulphate,
                magnesium aluminum sulphate or potassium aluminum suplphate, never
                ammonium sulphate which has no aluminum - but I am sure you know all
                that) combines with the glychocolic acid in the oxgall to form aluminum
                glycolate which is benign and that any free alum has been washed off in
                washing the paper. It is the free alum which deteriorates the paper.

                I do sponge the alum (as taught by Don) because I want the minimum
                possible to be absorbed by the paper. If you dip or soak paper in the
                alum solution they absorb much more than with sponging.

                With the alum rosin sizing which was so destructive of paper, the rosin
                was the major destructive element.

                Are you adding the alum to boiling water, in which case there is almost
                no time while it is in the form of crystals? I dilute after it is
                dissolved in the boiling water (again as taught by Don).

                Shelagh Smith<
              • V. Wilson
                Hi Shelagh I do not recall Don ever advocating boiling water - quite the opposite in fact. That was one of the advantages of using alum sulfate as it could be
                Message 7 of 19 , Sep 17 5:10 AM
                  Hi Shelagh

                  I do not recall Don ever advocating boiling water - quite the opposite in
                  fact. That was one of the advantages of using alum sulfate as it could be
                  dissolved in cold water.

                  Notes from his Baltimore lecture state:

                  "Aluminum sulfate emerges as the alum of choice for marbling paper because
                  of its solubility; because of its having neither ammonia nor potassium
                  associated with it; because a weaker solution of it will do as well as a
                  stronger solution of the other two; and because a weaker solution of an
                  acidic material is to be preferred when the material contacts paper. In
                  fact, six level tablespoons of aluminum sulfate crystals dissolved in one
                  gallon of ordinary tap water, at room temperature, will produce an
                  adequately strong solution of alum. This alum will facilitate the needed
                  reaction with the oxgall without leaving behind either a lot of impurities
                  (ammonia and potassium, which incidentally have to go somewhere, perhaps
                  into the size, thus spoiling it early?) or hundreds of small deposits of
                  reacted (i.e. acidic) alum which are difficult to remove without subjecting
                  the paper to harmfully hot water."

                  This was the benchmark Don used but different water supplies and the
                  current issue of buffered paper may mean an increase in alum strength for
                  some marblers.

                  Vi W

                  At 07:48 AM 17/09/2003 -0400, you wrote:
                  >What Don said is that the aluminum in the alum (aluminum sulphate,
                  >magnesium aluminum sulphate or potassium aluminum suplphate, never
                  >ammonium sulphate which has no aluminum - but I am sure you know all
                  >that) combines with the glychocolic acid in the oxgall to form aluminum
                  >glycolate which is benign and that any free alum has been washed off in
                  >washing the paper. It is the free alum which deteriorates the paper.
                  >
                  >I do sponge the alum (as taught by Don) because I want the minimum
                  >possible to be absorbed by the paper. If you dip or soak paper in the
                  >alum solution they absorb much more than with sponging.
                  >
                  >With the alum rosin sizing which was so destructive of paper, the rosin
                  >was the major destructive element.
                  >
                  >Are you adding the alum to boiling water, in which case there is almost
                  >no time while it is in the form of crystals? I dilute after it is
                  >dissolved in the boiling water (again as taught by Don).
                  >
                  >Shelagh Smith
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: irisnevins [mailto:IrisNevins@...]
                  >Sent: September 16, 2003 8:04 AM
                  >To: INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [Marbling] alum
                  >
                  >
                  >thanks Vi.....
                  >
                  >Guess next week's experiment will be to see if increasing alum
                  >helps....now Don made a case I believe for alum being a preservative,
                  >not a destroyer of papers as I recall.....before anyone gets worried
                  >about the evils of alum. Do you remember exactly what he had found? As
                  >memory serves me (likely not well due to eating alum!) at the Baltimore
                  >gathering he said the papers that had been alumed outlived the ones that
                  >had not...but I forget why. Some say it rots fabric.
                  >
                  >more unknowns, eh? fun....NOT!
                  >Iris
                  >
                  >Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Hi Iris
                  >
                  >Don't throw out your stock of Classic laid and linen. This problem of
                  >buffering is one I have been dealing with for ages, and have come up
                  >with a
                  >
                  >few strategies. Leave the paper open to the air for a while. I have a
                  >theory that when opened, the paper absorbs some of the impurities in the
                  >
                  >atmosphere which seem not to be detrimental to the marbling process.
                  >
                  > When I opened a pack of linen (not classic) the colours simply would
                  >not
                  >hold on the surface. When I tried it again a couple of months later, it
                  >
                  >was definitely better, though not perfect. The dark ridge of colour
                  >along
                  >the bottom of the paper is something I get quite often. This pack of
                  >linen
                  >
                  >also left a white deposit on the surface. Iris, I know its a pain, but
                  >when I have paper that reacts this way, I wipe over the surface of the
                  >paper with a dry cloth before I lay it down. This step removes the
                  >loose
                  >substance (which I believe absorbs the colour thus preventing it from
                  >adhering to the paper surface underneath) from the surface of the
                  >paper. And because this is a dust, perhaps a mask is necessary.
                  >
                  >A few years ago, Don Guyot was in despair over a pack of Crane's distaff
                  >
                  >linen he had bought and had colours running off. I brought some back to
                  >
                  >Australia with me, and had no trouble marbling it. When I was there on
                  >a
                  >later visit I did a test for him. Alummed the paper, left it for half
                  >an
                  >hour, then marbled it. Great! We alummed another couple of sheets,
                  >went
                  >out for lunch, and when we came back marbled those sheets. Colour
                  >washed
                  >off in patches. He kept the pack and marbled the sheets sooner after
                  >alumming.
                  >
                  >Different coloured papers also react differently. I had some papers
                  >tested
                  >
                  >recently for their pH. Grey Oxford was much more acid than Ivory
                  >Oxford. I have a pH pen and check the acidity of papers, which gives me
                  >a
                  >guide as to how I should deal with them - ie like marbling them sooner
                  >after alumming. I don't always sponge papers. However, on papers that
                  >throw a white substance, I think sponging them can contribute to the
                  >uneven
                  >
                  >distribution of colour on the sheet. Alumming by laying down (as you
                  >would
                  >
                  >paper on the size) on the alum solution, gives a more even result with
                  >the
                  >alumming, but also a more even result when the colour washes off!! It
                  >is
                  >for this reason that I wipe them over with a cloth.
                  >
                  >Another suggestion is to slightly increase the strength of the alum. I
                  >agree with your comments about acidity. A slightly acid paper works
                  >infinitely better than one which is heavily buffered. It is a bit like
                  >everything else these days. You have to wonder sometimes if the baby is
                  >
                  >being thrown out with the bathwater.
                  >
                  >Calcium carbonate and alum are definitely not compatible. Another
                  >buffering material is AKD alkylketenedimer (sp.?) composition of which
                  >is
                  >unknown, but almost certainly contains calcium carbonate.
                  >
                  >I realize with the production marbling you do, it is an inconvenience to
                  >
                  >have to make adjustments to a routine you have developed. I wish I
                  >could
                  >give you a magic solution. Guess I am prepared to make the adjustments
                  >since I do not do production marbling.
                  >
                  >Incidentally, the Classic linen you kindly gave me after the Gathering,
                  >marbles beautifully. It has been tucked in my paper shelf for a year!
                  >
                  >Best
                  >Vi<
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • mpmh60201
                  Don does mention Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate in his Ink & Gall article on Alum and its Use in Paper Marbling Part II (Spring 1988), in Table Two: Solubility of
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 17 10:12 AM
                    Don does mention Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate in his Ink &
                    Gall article on "Alum and its Use in Paper Marbling Part II"
                    (Spring 1988), in Table Two: Solubility of Alum Compounds.
                    His speech at the Baltimore gathering was taken from these
                    articles, so anyone fortunate enough to have subscribed the
                    famous I & G Journals can look up this interesting info.
                    I learned from Mr. Guyot as well when he taught a class in
                    Chicago way back when...!
                  • irisnevins
                    Thanks...who wrote this? Wish everyone would sign their name! Shall see where the I&G s are packed! iris nevins Message text written by
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 17 11:03 AM
                      Thanks...who wrote this? Wish everyone would sign their name! Shall see
                      where the I&G's are packed!
                      iris nevins

                      Message text written by INTERNET:Marbling@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      Don does mention Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate in his Ink &
                      Gall article on "Alum and its Use in Paper Marbling Part II"
                      (Spring 1988), in Table Two: Solubility of Alum Compounds.
                      His speech at the Baltimore gathering was taken from these
                      articles, so anyone fortunate enough to have subscribed the
                      famous I & G Journals can look up this interesting info.
                      I learned from Mr. Guyot as well when he taught a class in
                      Chicago way back when...!
                      <
                    • V. Wilson
                      Iris, the message was from Milena. If you can t find your journals, let me know and I will fax/email you a copy Vi ... [Non-text portions of this message have
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 17 4:52 PM
                        Iris, the message was from Milena. If you can't find your journals, let me
                        know and I will fax/email you a copy

                        Vi

                        At 04:03 AM 18/09/2003, you wrote:
                        >Thanks...who wrote this? Wish everyone would sign their name! Shall see
                        >where the I&G's are packed!
                        >iris nevins
                        >
                        >
                        >13d466.jpg
                        >
                        >
                        >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                        ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • irisnevins
                        I would stick to aluminum sulphate or aluminum potassium sulphate. They are best for marbling, Iris Nevins
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 29, 2003
                          I would stick to aluminum sulphate or aluminum potassium sulphate. They
                          are best for marbling,
                          Iris Nevins
                        • celinat05
                          Dears , Can you say how much alun a have to use for marbling papers? I tried many kinds of combination , but unfortenly I din^t had succefully. I appreciate
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 6, 2005
                            Dears ,
                            Can you say how much alun a have to use for marbling papers? I
                            tried many kinds of combination , but unfortenly I din^t had succefully.
                            I appreciate if you answer as soon as possible.
                            Sinceralys,...
                          • blynnekelly
                            Hi Everybody, I am new to marbling and am stumped by the whole alum thing. I was experimenting with Masa paper and got some stunning results right away. Then I
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 29, 2006
                              Hi Everybody, I am new to marbling and am stumped by the whole alum
                              thing. I was experimenting with Masa paper and got some stunning
                              results right away. Then I decided to read a book and follow the rules
                              and put alum on the paper first. Now the paint won't stick to the
                              paper!!! I thought alum was supposed to make the paint stick. I bought
                              the powdered alum at Daniel Smith Art Supply and mixed it 1 Tablspoon:
                              1 cup water. I heated it up a little until it was blended, then
                              painted it on the paper.
                              I used a carrageenan gel base and also am having one heck of a time
                              keeping my colors from sinking. I have "The Ultimate Marbling
                              Handbook" by Diane Maurer-Mathison and have read it.
                              Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
                              Lynne
                            • irisnevins
                              you need to let the alum dry to at least damp, never use it wet, the paints will come off. What paper do you use that needs no alum. I presume you must be
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 29, 2006
                                you need to let the alum dry to at least damp, never use it wet, the paints will come off.

                                What paper do you use that needs no alum. I presume you must be using acrylics? They sometimes stick without alum. If not, we'd love to know what materials you use.

                                iris nevins
                                www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: blynnekelly<mailto:blynnekelly@...>
                                To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:56 AM
                                Subject: [Marbling] alum


                                Hi Everybody, I am new to marbling and am stumped by the whole alum
                                thing. I was experimenting with Masa paper and got some stunning
                                results right away. Then I decided to read a book and follow the rules
                                and put alum on the paper first. Now the paint won't stick to the
                                paper!!! I thought alum was supposed to make the paint stick. I bought
                                the powdered alum at Daniel Smith Art Supply and mixed it 1 Tablspoon:
                                1 cup water. I heated it up a little until it was blended, then
                                painted it on the paper.
                                I used a carrageenan gel base and also am having one heck of a time
                                keeping my colors from sinking. I have "The Ultimate Marbling
                                Handbook" by Diane Maurer-Mathison and have read it.
                                Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
                                Lynne






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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • dkmaurer1@aol.com
                                Lynne, I have never marbled Masa, but believe it is an absorbant paper, which would explain why you achieved an image without alum. Many absorbant papers will
                                Message 15 of 19 , Mar 29, 2006
                                  Lynne,

                                  I have never marbled Masa, but believe it is an absorbant paper, which would
                                  explain why you achieved an image without alum. Many absorbant papers will
                                  yield a rather soft and slightly blurred
                                  image without any alum mordant. If Masa is also an acid-free paper, and I
                                  believe it is, that too could explain why the alum did not work for you. A
                                  calcium coated paper ( which renders the paper acid free) will repel the alum and
                                  then the color. I don't have time to reply to your questions in print, but if
                                  you have really read my book and are following the instructions to a T, I'd be
                                  happy to speak with you via telephone. Try me between 4 and 6 EST today at
                                  814-422-8651.

                                  Best,
                                  Diane
                                  www.dianemaurer.com


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • John Goode
                                  You may have the wrong type of alum. Try another source from a marbling supplier like colophon or Diane Maurer. Good Luck JBG ... [Non-text portions of this
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Mar 29, 2006
                                    You may have the wrong type of alum.
                                    Try another source from a marbling supplier like colophon or Diane Maurer.
                                    Good Luck JBG


                                    On 3/29/06, blynnekelly <blynnekelly@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Everybody, I am new to marbling and am stumped by the whole alum
                                    > thing. I was experimenting with Masa paper and got some stunning
                                    > results right away. Then I decided to read a book and follow the rules
                                    > and put alum on the paper first. Now the paint won't stick to the
                                    > paper!!! I thought alum was supposed to make the paint stick. I bought
                                    > the powdered alum at Daniel Smith Art Supply and mixed it 1 Tablspoon:
                                    > 1 cup water. I heated it up a little until it was blended, then
                                    > painted it on the paper.
                                    > I used a carrageenan gel base and also am having one heck of a time
                                    > keeping my colors from sinking. I have "The Ultimate Marbling
                                    > Handbook" by Diane Maurer-Mathison and have read it.
                                    > Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
                                    > Lynne
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • irisnevins
                                    true...should be aluminum sulphate or aluminum potassium sulphate. iris nevins www.marblingpaper.com ... From: John
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Mar 29, 2006
                                      true...should be aluminum sulphate or aluminum potassium sulphate.

                                      iris nevins
                                      www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: John Goode<mailto:watermarktile@...>
                                      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 2:16 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Marbling] alum


                                      You may have the wrong type of alum.
                                      Try another source from a marbling supplier like colophon or Diane Maurer.
                                      Good Luck JBG


                                      On 3/29/06, blynnekelly <blynnekelly@...<mailto:blynnekelly@...>> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Everybody, I am new to marbling and am stumped by the whole alum
                                      > thing. I was experimenting with Masa paper and got some stunning
                                      > results right away. Then I decided to read a book and follow the rules
                                      > and put alum on the paper first. Now the paint won't stick to the
                                      > paper!!! I thought alum was supposed to make the paint stick. I bought
                                      > the powdered alum at Daniel Smith Art Supply and mixed it 1 Tablspoon:
                                      > 1 cup water. I heated it up a little until it was blended, then
                                      > painted it on the paper.
                                      > I used a carrageenan gel base and also am having one heck of a time
                                      > keeping my colors from sinking. I have "The Ultimate Marbling
                                      > Handbook" by Diane Maurer-Mathison and have read it.
                                      > Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
                                      > Lynne
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • hhumler
                                      a question for the more chemist minded - when aluminng large quantities of something, for instance scarves or paper, can anyone definitively say that the alum
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 8, 2006
                                        a question for the more chemist minded - when aluminng large quantities of something, for
                                        instance scarves or paper, can anyone definitively say that the alum solution that was full
                                        strength when one started the aluming process is still full strength at the end of aluming
                                        these items. In other words, does the product being alumed draw off the alum and at the
                                        end perhaps the last sheet of paper or scarf does not get as much alum on it as did the first
                                        item?
                                        Just trying to figure out why some scarves/paper come out more pastel than others.
                                        Granted it could be the amount of paint thrown on the methy cel or carrageenan, but perhaps
                                        there id another explanaion....
                                      • irisnevins
                                        I don t think the later solution is less weak. It may cloud a bit from paper sludge absobed by the sponge you keep dipping in, but I have never had any alum
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 8, 2006
                                          I don't think the later solution is less weak. It may cloud a bit from "paper sludge" absobed by the sponge you keep dipping in, but I have never had any alum weakening, except in cases where you marble "damp" and if it sits too long, especially in hot humid weather, the alum seems to go a bit weak, all the way to totally ineffective.

                                          After nearly three decades of marbling I concluded, at least for myself, the best and easiest way to deal with paper and alum is to alum ahead, as much as I want, hundreds of sheets if I want, and to alum in 55% humidity or less, and to also store the papers in the same humidity (after line drying overnight and flattening under boards). I have experimented on papers kept for many years this way and the alum is still good.

                                          As for fabric, I would do the same, though I wouldn't keep the fabric once alumed for years....allegedly the alum can corrode the fabric. It has never seemed to corrode any paper though. I use half strength alum on fabric and it works fine.

                                          iris nevins
                                          http://marblingpaper.com<http://marblingpaper.com/>
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: hhumler<mailto:hhumler@...>
                                          To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Saturday, July 08, 2006 6:58 AM
                                          Subject: [Marbling] alum


                                          a question for the more chemist minded - when aluminng large quantities of something, for
                                          instance scarves or paper, can anyone definitively say that the alum solution that was full
                                          strength when one started the aluming process is still full strength at the end of aluming
                                          these items. In other words, does the product being alumed draw off the alum and at the
                                          end perhaps the last sheet of paper or scarf does not get as much alum on it as did the first
                                          item?
                                          Just trying to figure out why some scarves/paper come out more pastel than others.
                                          Granted it could be the amount of paint thrown on the methy cel or carrageenan, but perhaps
                                          there id another explanaion....







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