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Re: [Marbling] paint rinses off

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  • Geri Burgert
    In addition to Madronewood s previous questions, I would also like to ask one: I, too, am searching for a source for inexpensive paper for marbling. I need
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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      In addition to Madronewood's previous questions, I would also like to ask one:

      I, too, am searching for a source for inexpensive paper for marbling. I need something fairly thin because I hope to use the marbled paper to package homemade scented soaps. Help?

      TIA, Geri



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ann Lederer
      You might want to try galen berry s web site for ordering materials.... juliepoulton wrote:Thanks to Iris for all the advice and
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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        You might want to try galen berry's web site for ordering materials....
        juliepoulton <madronewood@...> wrote:Thanks to Iris for all the advice and info!

        Now I have more questions.

        None of my paints sunk, but I will dilute further and avoid the gold.
        Plus I will get that charcoal paper.

        Where do you get papers from and what do you get? My interests would
        be to make (small) wrapping papers, cards, or paper to cover a box.
        Also, does stationery usually work? (like those blank cards they sell
        in art stores?)

        How can I tell how much carrageenan to add to my hard h2o?

        Yes, I am using alum from the grocery store! Not sure where else to
        get it in this rural town, but I will order some real stuff for next
        time. One person sent me a direct email saying that I don't need to
        alum if I am using acrylics. Anyone else have comments on this?

        Thanks
        -madronewood



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      • IrisNevins
        Wrong alum. wrong paper......no wonder. Ceramcoat is generally OK if you pick the right colors, and I can t say now what they are....forgot long ago. Round
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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          Wrong alum. wrong paper......no wonder. Ceramcoat is generally OK if you
          pick the right colors, and I can't say now what they are....forgot long
          ago.

          Round your tablespoons of carrageenan instead of level. Very easy.

          IrisNevins
          www.marblingpaper.com
        • IrisNevins
          If you need just small sheets, Strathmore writing paper is good from stationary store. I use Classic laid or Classic Linen and you have to buy cartons of at
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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            If you need just small sheets, Strathmore writing paper is good from
            stationary store.

            I use Classic laid or Classic Linen and you have to buy cartons of at least
            1,000. Look up PAPER in your LOCAL yellow pages. They have local
            distributors all over.

            Iris Nevins
            www.marblingpaper.com
          • IrisNevins
            PS....I sell alum, as do other suppliers. On many acrylics you do not need alum much of the time...it is different for each kind. Marbling paint is not
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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              PS....I sell alum, as do other suppliers.

              On many acrylics you do not need alum much of the time...it is different
              for each kind. Marbling "paint" is not generic. Each brand will work very
              differently.

              IrisNevins
              www.marblingpaper.com
            • susaglenn
              Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50% GAC 900 and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part of the Ceramcoat paint.
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50% GAC 900
                and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part of
                the Ceramcoat paint. You might want to thin all of your paints down
                to 1 part paint and 3 parts of the 50-50 mix. It is up to you. I
                think that I was marbling on colored fabric when I was using the 33%
                paint mix and if you are marbling on white paper, the 25% paint may
                work just fine and be easier.

                Susa Glenn


                --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "susaglenn" <sglenn@c...> wrote:
                > Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on fabric.
                I
                > used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium)
                and
                > 1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
                > makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of the
                > size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to
                some
                > paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
                > hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
                > (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright Red,
                > Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several.
                The
                > red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues
                glom
                > from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't remember
                > which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually, their
                > gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was great
                > with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed my
                > paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.
                >
                > This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size so
                > there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to keep
                the
                > paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let
                the
                > last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I
                guess
                > you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to
                the
                > pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint and
                > falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the paint
                > spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can
                actually
                > balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully
                with
                > this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to other
                > paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric medium,
                but
                > it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
                > heavier.
                >
                > Good luck! Susa Glenn
                >
                > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton" <madronewood@a...>
                > wrote:
                > > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do
                > > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
                > haven't
                > > been
                > > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because I
                > have
                > > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling with
                me!
                > >
                > > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right off
                the
                > > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
                > before
                > > I
                > > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not stick
                to
                > > the
                > > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick, even
                > > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
                > >
                > > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
                > papers
                > > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
                > > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too
                much
                > > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank
                spaces),
                > > or
                > > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
                > >
                > > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
                > printer
                > > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper be
                the
                > > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
                > could
                > > get at a Ben Franklin store?
                > >
                > > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
                > >
                > > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix the
                > > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a couple
                > drops
                > > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this
                cause
                > a
                > > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
                > >
                > > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I
                tried
                > to
                > > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at least
                > 12
                > > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface. any
                > > tips?
                > >
                > > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it ok to
                > > "fill
                > > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page, then
                > make
                > > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each time?
                > >
                > > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the paint
                to
                > > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
                > >
                > > Thanks in advance,
                > > madronewood
              • del stubbs
                Now a question about GAC 900....a week ago I talked with a tech person at Golden paints asking specifically what all the GAC s were for (there is everything
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  Now a question about GAC 900....a week ago I talked with a tech person
                  at Golden paints asking specifically what all the "GAC's" were for
                  (there is everything from GAC 100-900. He told me that the GAC 900 was
                  for fabric only, and not to use it for paper (he knew I was marbling -
                  and he is a marbler himself...). The reason he said not to use the 900
                  on paper was that it needs heat to really set the paint when it is mixed
                  with the 900......but it sounds as though some of you are using the 900
                  on paper successfully? I'm always interested in hearing "the rest of
                  the story" - and pros and cons.

                  Also - another perspective on ceramcoat......when my husband and I
                  started marbling 10 years ago or so - we bought ceramcoat paints,
                  because they were an inexpensive way to explore a new craft. We used
                  them on carageenan, and never had much trouble with them (after we got
                  through the marbling "initiation" phases......!) We were able to get
                  some very good results with Ceramcoat, and still use them sometimes. We
                  have switched, for the most part, to Golden fluid acrylics - and I find
                  that there is a definite difference in quality and "performance" between
                  the 2 brand names. My observations when comparing the two - Ceramcoat
                  paint is not as dense color as Golden - the pigments in ceramcoat paint
                  don't seem to be ground as fine - there is more "contamination" in
                  Ceramcoat (ie. chunks of pigment).....and Ceramcoat "spreadabilty"
                  varies significantly. Mary-Celine Thouin (Stubbs)

                  susaglenn wrote:

                  > Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50% GAC 900
                  > and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part of
                  > the Ceramcoat paint. You might want to thin all of your paints down
                  > to 1 part paint and 3 parts of the 50-50 mix. It is up to you. I
                  > think that I was marbling on colored fabric when I was using the 33%
                  > paint mix and if you are marbling on white paper, the 25% paint may
                  > work just fine and be easier.
                  >
                  > Susa Glenn
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "susaglenn" <sglenn@c...> wrote:
                  > > Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on fabric.
                  > I
                  > > used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium)
                  > and
                  > > 1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
                  > > makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of the
                  > > size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to
                  > some
                  > > paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
                  > > hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
                  > > (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright Red,
                  > > Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several.
                  > The
                  > > red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues
                  > glom
                  > > from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't remember
                  > > which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually, their
                  > > gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was great
                  > > with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed my
                  > > paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.
                  > >
                  > > This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size so
                  > > there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to keep
                  > the
                  > > paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let
                  > the
                  > > last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I
                  > guess
                  > > you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to
                  > the
                  > > pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint and
                  > > falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the paint
                  > > spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can
                  > actually
                  > > balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully
                  > with
                  > > this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to other
                  > > paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric medium,
                  > but
                  > > it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
                  > > heavier.
                  > >
                  > > Good luck! Susa Glenn
                  > >
                  > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton" <madronewood@a...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do
                  > > > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
                  > > haven't
                  > > > been
                  > > > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because I
                  > > have
                  > > > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling with
                  > me!
                  > > >
                  > > > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right off
                  > the
                  > > > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
                  > > before
                  > > > I
                  > > > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not stick
                  > to
                  > > > the
                  > > > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick, even
                  > > > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
                  > > >
                  > > > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
                  > > papers
                  > > > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
                  > > > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too
                  > much
                  > > > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank
                  > spaces),
                  > > > or
                  > > > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
                  > > >
                  > > > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
                  > > printer
                  > > > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper be
                  > the
                  > > > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
                  > > could
                  > > > get at a Ben Franklin store?
                  > > >
                  > > > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
                  > > >
                  > > > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix the
                  > > > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a couple
                  > > drops
                  > > > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this
                  > cause
                  > > a
                  > > > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
                  > > >
                  > > > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I
                  > tried
                  > > to
                  > > > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at least
                  > > 12
                  > > > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface. any
                  > > > tips?
                  > > >
                  > > > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it ok to
                  > > > "fill
                  > > > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page, then
                  > > make
                  > > > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each time?
                  > > >
                  > > > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the paint
                  > to
                  > > > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks in advance,
                  > > > madronewood
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  ADVERTISEMENT


                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • susaglenn
                  I agree with all you ve said & I too use Golden Fluids now. The advantage that I see for a beginner to use Ceramcoat is that even though the pigment load is
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    I agree with all you've said & I too use Golden Fluids now. The
                    advantage that I see for a beginner to use Ceramcoat is that even
                    though the pigment load is MUCH lower and there's sometimes some
                    glop that needs to be strained out and the paint needs to be stirred
                    up because it has separated from sitting on the shelf for who knows
                    how long, Ceramcoat will give you nice thread quality and won't
                    shatter so easily like the Golden fluids. There's something in there
                    that makes it smooth & easier to work with.

                    On the question about not using GAC 900 on paper: The GAC 900 has to
                    be heat set so the fabric will be washable. If you don't plan to
                    wash your marbled paper you don't need to heat set it. The alum on
                    the paper is going to hold the pigment to the paper fibers. I really
                    don't see why you couldn't use the 900 if you wanted to unless it
                    messes up the archival quality of the paper.

                    The alcohol that I use also helps with pigment problems as it acts
                    as a solvent.

                    Susa Glenn

                    --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, del stubbs <mdstubbs@p...> wrote:
                    > Now a question about GAC 900....a week ago I talked with a tech
                    person
                    > at Golden paints asking specifically what all the "GAC's" were for
                    > (there is everything from GAC 100-900. He told me that the GAC
                    900 was
                    > for fabric only, and not to use it for paper (he knew I was
                    marbling -
                    > and he is a marbler himself...). The reason he said not to use
                    the 900
                    > on paper was that it needs heat to really set the paint when it is
                    mixed
                    > with the 900......but it sounds as though some of you are using
                    the 900
                    > on paper successfully? I'm always interested in hearing "the rest
                    of
                    > the story" - and pros and cons.
                    >
                    > Also - another perspective on ceramcoat......when my husband and I
                    > started marbling 10 years ago or so - we bought ceramcoat paints,
                    > because they were an inexpensive way to explore a new craft. We
                    used
                    > them on carageenan, and never had much trouble with them (after we
                    got
                    > through the marbling "initiation" phases......!) We were able to
                    get
                    > some very good results with Ceramcoat, and still use them
                    sometimes. We
                    > have switched, for the most part, to Golden fluid acrylics - and I
                    find
                    > that there is a definite difference in quality and "performance"
                    between
                    > the 2 brand names. My observations when comparing the two -
                    Ceramcoat
                    > paint is not as dense color as Golden - the pigments in ceramcoat
                    paint
                    > don't seem to be ground as fine - there is more "contamination" in
                    > Ceramcoat (ie. chunks of pigment).....and Ceramcoat "spreadabilty"
                    > varies significantly. Mary-Celine Thouin (Stubbs)
                    >
                    > susaglenn wrote:
                    >
                    > > Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50%
                    GAC 900
                    > > and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part
                    of
                    > > the Ceramcoat paint. You might want to thin all of your paints
                    down
                    > > to 1 part paint and 3 parts of the 50-50 mix. It is up to you. I
                    > > think that I was marbling on colored fabric when I was using the
                    33%
                    > > paint mix and if you are marbling on white paper, the 25% paint
                    may
                    > > work just fine and be easier.
                    > >
                    > > Susa Glenn
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "susaglenn" <sglenn@c...> wrote:
                    > > > Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on
                    fabric.
                    > > I
                    > > > used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium)
                    > > and
                    > > > 1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
                    > > > makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of
                    the
                    > > > size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to
                    > > some
                    > > > paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
                    > > > hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
                    > > > (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright
                    Red,
                    > > > Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several.
                    > > The
                    > > > red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues
                    > > glom
                    > > > from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't
                    remember
                    > > > which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually,
                    their
                    > > > gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was
                    great
                    > > > with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed
                    my
                    > > > paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.
                    > > >
                    > > > This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size
                    so
                    > > > there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to
                    keep
                    > > the
                    > > > paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let
                    > > the
                    > > > last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I
                    > > guess
                    > > > you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to
                    > > the
                    > > > pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint
                    and
                    > > > falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the
                    paint
                    > > > spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can
                    > > actually
                    > > > balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully
                    > > with
                    > > > this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to
                    other
                    > > > paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric
                    medium,
                    > > but
                    > > > it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
                    > > > heavier.
                    > > >
                    > > > Good luck! Susa Glenn
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton"
                    <madronewood@a...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions.
                    I do
                    > > > > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
                    > > > haven't
                    > > > > been
                    > > > > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because
                    I
                    > > > have
                    > > > > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling
                    with
                    > > me!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right
                    off
                    > > the
                    > > > > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
                    > > > before
                    > > > > I
                    > > > > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not
                    stick
                    > > to
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick,
                    even
                    > > > > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
                    > > > papers
                    > > > > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
                    > > > > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too
                    > > much
                    > > > > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank
                    > > spaces),
                    > > > > or
                    > > > > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
                    > > > printer
                    > > > > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper
                    be
                    > > the
                    > > > > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
                    > > > could
                    > > > > get at a Ben Franklin store?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix
                    the
                    > > > > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a
                    couple
                    > > > drops
                    > > > > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this
                    > > cause
                    > > > a
                    > > > > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I
                    > > tried
                    > > > to
                    > > > > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at
                    least
                    > > > 12
                    > > > > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface.
                    any
                    > > > > tips?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it
                    ok to
                    > > > > "fill
                    > > > > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page,
                    then
                    > > > make
                    > > > > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each
                    time?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the
                    paint
                    > > to
                    > > > > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks in advance,
                    > > > > madronewood
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
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