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paint rinses off

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  • juliepoulton
    Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but haven t been able to figure some
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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      Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do
      have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but haven't
      been
      able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because I have
      a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling with me!

      The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right off the
      paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper before
      I
      even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not stick to
      the
      paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick, even
      diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)

      The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my papers
      (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
      concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too much
      paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank spaces),
      or
      if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).

      My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used printer
      paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper be the
      problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I could
      get at a Ben Franklin store?

      I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.

      I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix the
      carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a couple drops
      of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this cause a
      problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?

      I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I tried to
      clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at least 12
      strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface. any
      tips?

      I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it ok to
      "fill
      in" the empty space with more paint after making one page, then make
      another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each time?

      Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the paint to
      stick to the papers, I will be happy!

      Thanks in advance,
      madronewood
    • irisnevins
      Ceramcoat....... Too thick will run off or sink in the tray. otherwise some are OK, thin with 3X water. so pour in 1/4 cup into measure and fill up with
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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        Ceramcoat....... Too thick will run off or sink in the tray. otherwise
        some are OK, thin with 3X water. so pour in 1/4 cup into measure and fill
        up with water. That's how I have used it. Their gold stinks for marbling.
        Also, their colors do not marble consistently....some sink no matter how
        much dispersant, others spread OK alone. Not made for marbling though.

        The papers may be sized with a size that repels color.....many are.
        Strathmore charcoal, Canson are papers that work. some computer paper does
        some doesn't. You have to test them. Most art/craft store papers don't work
        well.

        Hard water......not a big problem, though some say it is. My water is the
        hardest in creation....the only thing is to dilute the paint with DISTILLED
        water just in case some of the minerals affect the paint (only should be a
        little) The only thing I find about hard water is that you may need
        slightly more carrageenan powder for the size. That's it.

        Alum sounds ok....I hope you are not using the junk from grocery or drug
        stores. Use Aluminum Potassium sulphate or Aluminum sulphate only. You may
        also be marbling too soon after aluming....the papers need to sit under a
        board until the "wet puddles" are gone. any wet spots will not hold paint.

        You need to skime everytime. There is always a bit that sinks, but looks
        near the surface....don't worry you can't clean it anyway.

        Iris Nevins
      • susaglenn
        Hi, I ve used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on fabric. I used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium) and 1/3 alcohol (70%). The
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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          Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on fabric. I
          used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium) and
          1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
          makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of the
          size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to some
          paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
          hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
          (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright Red,
          Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several. The
          red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues glom
          from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't remember
          which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually, their
          gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was great
          with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed my
          paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.

          This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size so
          there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to keep the
          paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let the
          last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I guess
          you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to the
          pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint and
          falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the paint
          spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can actually
          balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully with
          this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to other
          paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric medium, but
          it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
          heavier.

          Good luck! Susa Glenn

          --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton" <madronewood@a...>
          wrote:
          > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do
          > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
          haven't
          > been
          > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because I
          have
          > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling with me!
          >
          > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right off the
          > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
          before
          > I
          > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not stick to
          > the
          > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick, even
          > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
          >
          > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
          papers
          > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
          > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too much
          > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank spaces),
          > or
          > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
          >
          > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
          printer
          > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper be the
          > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
          could
          > get at a Ben Franklin store?
          >
          > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
          >
          > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix the
          > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a couple
          drops
          > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this cause
          a
          > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
          >
          > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I tried
          to
          > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at least
          12
          > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface. any
          > tips?
          >
          > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it ok to
          > "fill
          > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page, then
          make
          > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each time?
          >
          > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the paint to
          > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
          >
          > Thanks in advance,
          > madronewood
        • juliepoulton
          Thanks to Iris for all the advice and info! Now I have more questions. None of my paints sunk, but I will dilute further and avoid the gold. Plus I will get
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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            Thanks to Iris for all the advice and info!

            Now I have more questions.

            None of my paints sunk, but I will dilute further and avoid the gold.
            Plus I will get that charcoal paper.

            Where do you get papers from and what do you get? My interests would
            be to make (small) wrapping papers, cards, or paper to cover a box.
            Also, does stationery usually work? (like those blank cards they sell
            in art stores?)

            How can I tell how much carrageenan to add to my hard h2o?

            Yes, I am using alum from the grocery store! Not sure where else to
            get it in this rural town, but I will order some real stuff for next
            time. One person sent me a direct email saying that I don't need to
            alum if I am using acrylics. Anyone else have comments on this?

            Thanks
            -madronewood
          • Geri Burgert
            In addition to Madronewood s previous questions, I would also like to ask one: I, too, am searching for a source for inexpensive paper for marbling. I need
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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              In addition to Madronewood's previous questions, I would also like to ask one:

              I, too, am searching for a source for inexpensive paper for marbling. I need something fairly thin because I hope to use the marbled paper to package homemade scented soaps. Help?

              TIA, Geri



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ann Lederer
              You might want to try galen berry s web site for ordering materials.... juliepoulton wrote:Thanks to Iris for all the advice and
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                You might want to try galen berry's web site for ordering materials....
                juliepoulton <madronewood@...> wrote:Thanks to Iris for all the advice and info!

                Now I have more questions.

                None of my paints sunk, but I will dilute further and avoid the gold.
                Plus I will get that charcoal paper.

                Where do you get papers from and what do you get? My interests would
                be to make (small) wrapping papers, cards, or paper to cover a box.
                Also, does stationery usually work? (like those blank cards they sell
                in art stores?)

                How can I tell how much carrageenan to add to my hard h2o?

                Yes, I am using alum from the grocery store! Not sure where else to
                get it in this rural town, but I will order some real stuff for next
                time. One person sent me a direct email saying that I don't need to
                alum if I am using acrylics. Anyone else have comments on this?

                Thanks
                -madronewood



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              • IrisNevins
                Wrong alum. wrong paper......no wonder. Ceramcoat is generally OK if you pick the right colors, and I can t say now what they are....forgot long ago. Round
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                  Wrong alum. wrong paper......no wonder. Ceramcoat is generally OK if you
                  pick the right colors, and I can't say now what they are....forgot long
                  ago.

                  Round your tablespoons of carrageenan instead of level. Very easy.

                  IrisNevins
                  www.marblingpaper.com
                • IrisNevins
                  If you need just small sheets, Strathmore writing paper is good from stationary store. I use Classic laid or Classic Linen and you have to buy cartons of at
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                    If you need just small sheets, Strathmore writing paper is good from
                    stationary store.

                    I use Classic laid or Classic Linen and you have to buy cartons of at least
                    1,000. Look up PAPER in your LOCAL yellow pages. They have local
                    distributors all over.

                    Iris Nevins
                    www.marblingpaper.com
                  • IrisNevins
                    PS....I sell alum, as do other suppliers. On many acrylics you do not need alum much of the time...it is different for each kind. Marbling paint is not
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                      PS....I sell alum, as do other suppliers.

                      On many acrylics you do not need alum much of the time...it is different
                      for each kind. Marbling "paint" is not generic. Each brand will work very
                      differently.

                      IrisNevins
                      www.marblingpaper.com
                    • susaglenn
                      Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50% GAC 900 and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part of the Ceramcoat paint.
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                        Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50% GAC 900
                        and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part of
                        the Ceramcoat paint. You might want to thin all of your paints down
                        to 1 part paint and 3 parts of the 50-50 mix. It is up to you. I
                        think that I was marbling on colored fabric when I was using the 33%
                        paint mix and if you are marbling on white paper, the 25% paint may
                        work just fine and be easier.

                        Susa Glenn


                        --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "susaglenn" <sglenn@c...> wrote:
                        > Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on fabric.
                        I
                        > used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium)
                        and
                        > 1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
                        > makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of the
                        > size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to
                        some
                        > paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
                        > hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
                        > (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright Red,
                        > Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several.
                        The
                        > red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues
                        glom
                        > from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't remember
                        > which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually, their
                        > gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was great
                        > with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed my
                        > paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.
                        >
                        > This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size so
                        > there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to keep
                        the
                        > paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let
                        the
                        > last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I
                        guess
                        > you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to
                        the
                        > pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint and
                        > falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the paint
                        > spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can
                        actually
                        > balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully
                        with
                        > this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to other
                        > paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric medium,
                        but
                        > it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
                        > heavier.
                        >
                        > Good luck! Susa Glenn
                        >
                        > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton" <madronewood@a...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do
                        > > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
                        > haven't
                        > > been
                        > > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because I
                        > have
                        > > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling with
                        me!
                        > >
                        > > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right off
                        the
                        > > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
                        > before
                        > > I
                        > > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not stick
                        to
                        > > the
                        > > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick, even
                        > > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
                        > >
                        > > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
                        > papers
                        > > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
                        > > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too
                        much
                        > > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank
                        spaces),
                        > > or
                        > > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
                        > >
                        > > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
                        > printer
                        > > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper be
                        the
                        > > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
                        > could
                        > > get at a Ben Franklin store?
                        > >
                        > > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
                        > >
                        > > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix the
                        > > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a couple
                        > drops
                        > > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this
                        cause
                        > a
                        > > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
                        > >
                        > > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I
                        tried
                        > to
                        > > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at least
                        > 12
                        > > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface. any
                        > > tips?
                        > >
                        > > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it ok to
                        > > "fill
                        > > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page, then
                        > make
                        > > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each time?
                        > >
                        > > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the paint
                        to
                        > > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
                        > >
                        > > Thanks in advance,
                        > > madronewood
                      • del stubbs
                        Now a question about GAC 900....a week ago I talked with a tech person at Golden paints asking specifically what all the GAC s were for (there is everything
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                          Now a question about GAC 900....a week ago I talked with a tech person
                          at Golden paints asking specifically what all the "GAC's" were for
                          (there is everything from GAC 100-900. He told me that the GAC 900 was
                          for fabric only, and not to use it for paper (he knew I was marbling -
                          and he is a marbler himself...). The reason he said not to use the 900
                          on paper was that it needs heat to really set the paint when it is mixed
                          with the 900......but it sounds as though some of you are using the 900
                          on paper successfully? I'm always interested in hearing "the rest of
                          the story" - and pros and cons.

                          Also - another perspective on ceramcoat......when my husband and I
                          started marbling 10 years ago or so - we bought ceramcoat paints,
                          because they were an inexpensive way to explore a new craft. We used
                          them on carageenan, and never had much trouble with them (after we got
                          through the marbling "initiation" phases......!) We were able to get
                          some very good results with Ceramcoat, and still use them sometimes. We
                          have switched, for the most part, to Golden fluid acrylics - and I find
                          that there is a definite difference in quality and "performance" between
                          the 2 brand names. My observations when comparing the two - Ceramcoat
                          paint is not as dense color as Golden - the pigments in ceramcoat paint
                          don't seem to be ground as fine - there is more "contamination" in
                          Ceramcoat (ie. chunks of pigment).....and Ceramcoat "spreadabilty"
                          varies significantly. Mary-Celine Thouin (Stubbs)

                          susaglenn wrote:

                          > Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50% GAC 900
                          > and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part of
                          > the Ceramcoat paint. You might want to thin all of your paints down
                          > to 1 part paint and 3 parts of the 50-50 mix. It is up to you. I
                          > think that I was marbling on colored fabric when I was using the 33%
                          > paint mix and if you are marbling on white paper, the 25% paint may
                          > work just fine and be easier.
                          >
                          > Susa Glenn
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "susaglenn" <sglenn@c...> wrote:
                          > > Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on fabric.
                          > I
                          > > used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium)
                          > and
                          > > 1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
                          > > makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of the
                          > > size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to
                          > some
                          > > paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
                          > > hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
                          > > (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright Red,
                          > > Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several.
                          > The
                          > > red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues
                          > glom
                          > > from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't remember
                          > > which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually, their
                          > > gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was great
                          > > with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed my
                          > > paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.
                          > >
                          > > This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size so
                          > > there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to keep
                          > the
                          > > paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let
                          > the
                          > > last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I
                          > guess
                          > > you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to
                          > the
                          > > pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint and
                          > > falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the paint
                          > > spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can
                          > actually
                          > > balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully
                          > with
                          > > this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to other
                          > > paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric medium,
                          > but
                          > > it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
                          > > heavier.
                          > >
                          > > Good luck! Susa Glenn
                          > >
                          > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton" <madronewood@a...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions. I do
                          > > > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
                          > > haven't
                          > > > been
                          > > > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because I
                          > > have
                          > > > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling with
                          > me!
                          > > >
                          > > > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right off
                          > the
                          > > > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
                          > > before
                          > > > I
                          > > > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not stick
                          > to
                          > > > the
                          > > > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick, even
                          > > > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
                          > > >
                          > > > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
                          > > papers
                          > > > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
                          > > > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too
                          > much
                          > > > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank
                          > spaces),
                          > > > or
                          > > > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
                          > > >
                          > > > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
                          > > printer
                          > > > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper be
                          > the
                          > > > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
                          > > could
                          > > > get at a Ben Franklin store?
                          > > >
                          > > > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
                          > > >
                          > > > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix the
                          > > > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a couple
                          > > drops
                          > > > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this
                          > cause
                          > > a
                          > > > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
                          > > >
                          > > > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I
                          > tried
                          > > to
                          > > > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at least
                          > > 12
                          > > > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface. any
                          > > > tips?
                          > > >
                          > > > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it ok to
                          > > > "fill
                          > > > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page, then
                          > > make
                          > > > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each time?
                          > > >
                          > > > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the paint
                          > to
                          > > > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks in advance,
                          > > > madronewood
                          >
                          >
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                        • susaglenn
                          I agree with all you ve said & I too use Golden Fluids now. The advantage that I see for a beginner to use Ceramcoat is that even though the pigment load is
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 5, 2003
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                            I agree with all you've said & I too use Golden Fluids now. The
                            advantage that I see for a beginner to use Ceramcoat is that even
                            though the pigment load is MUCH lower and there's sometimes some
                            glop that needs to be strained out and the paint needs to be stirred
                            up because it has separated from sitting on the shelf for who knows
                            how long, Ceramcoat will give you nice thread quality and won't
                            shatter so easily like the Golden fluids. There's something in there
                            that makes it smooth & easier to work with.

                            On the question about not using GAC 900 on paper: The GAC 900 has to
                            be heat set so the fabric will be washable. If you don't plan to
                            wash your marbled paper you don't need to heat set it. The alum on
                            the paper is going to hold the pigment to the paper fibers. I really
                            don't see why you couldn't use the 900 if you wanted to unless it
                            messes up the archival quality of the paper.

                            The alcohol that I use also helps with pigment problems as it acts
                            as a solvent.

                            Susa Glenn

                            --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, del stubbs <mdstubbs@p...> wrote:
                            > Now a question about GAC 900....a week ago I talked with a tech
                            person
                            > at Golden paints asking specifically what all the "GAC's" were for
                            > (there is everything from GAC 100-900. He told me that the GAC
                            900 was
                            > for fabric only, and not to use it for paper (he knew I was
                            marbling -
                            > and he is a marbler himself...). The reason he said not to use
                            the 900
                            > on paper was that it needs heat to really set the paint when it is
                            mixed
                            > with the 900......but it sounds as though some of you are using
                            the 900
                            > on paper successfully? I'm always interested in hearing "the rest
                            of
                            > the story" - and pros and cons.
                            >
                            > Also - another perspective on ceramcoat......when my husband and I
                            > started marbling 10 years ago or so - we bought ceramcoat paints,
                            > because they were an inexpensive way to explore a new craft. We
                            used
                            > them on carageenan, and never had much trouble with them (after we
                            got
                            > through the marbling "initiation" phases......!) We were able to
                            get
                            > some very good results with Ceramcoat, and still use them
                            sometimes. We
                            > have switched, for the most part, to Golden fluid acrylics - and I
                            find
                            > that there is a definite difference in quality and "performance"
                            between
                            > the 2 brand names. My observations when comparing the two -
                            Ceramcoat
                            > paint is not as dense color as Golden - the pigments in ceramcoat
                            paint
                            > don't seem to be ground as fine - there is more "contamination" in
                            > Ceramcoat (ie. chunks of pigment).....and Ceramcoat "spreadabilty"
                            > varies significantly. Mary-Celine Thouin (Stubbs)
                            >
                            > susaglenn wrote:
                            >
                            > > Let me fine tune the suggested formula below: Start with 50%
                            GAC 900
                            > > and 50% alcohol (70%). Try using 2 parts of this mix with 1 part
                            of
                            > > the Ceramcoat paint. You might want to thin all of your paints
                            down
                            > > to 1 part paint and 3 parts of the 50-50 mix. It is up to you. I
                            > > think that I was marbling on colored fabric when I was using the
                            33%
                            > > paint mix and if you are marbling on white paper, the 25% paint
                            may
                            > > work just fine and be easier.
                            > >
                            > > Susa Glenn
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "susaglenn" <sglenn@c...> wrote:
                            > > > Hi, I've used Ceramcoat paints with some good successes on
                            fabric.
                            > > I
                            > > > used 1/3 Ceramcoat, 1/3 Golden Acrylics GAC 900 (fabric medium)
                            > > and
                            > > > 1/3 alcohol (70%). The alcohol is a double sided issue here. It
                            > > > makes the acrylic paint pigment moil around on the surface of
                            the
                            > > > size when dropped so it doesn't sink and it also will react to
                            > > some
                            > > > paint pigments so that the mixture gloms in the jar and is a
                            > > > hopeless mess. I think the paint tech people said that organic
                            > > > (inorganic?) pigments react to alcohol. Try Ceramcoat Bright
                            Red,
                            > > > Bright Yellow, and now I've forgotten which blue. Test several.
                            > > The
                            > > > red blues are very agressive on their spread & the green blues
                            > > glom
                            > > > from the alcohol. I finally got one to work, I just can't
                            remember
                            > > > which. Their white is nice. Their black is nice. Actually,
                            their
                            > > > gold (Emperor's Gold, not the others) worked very well, was
                            great
                            > > > with the alcohol, & printed on white paper. Amazing. I alumed
                            my
                            > > > paper; I've forgotten the alum strength.
                            > > >
                            > > > This mix takes longer to fully expand when dropped on the size
                            so
                            > > > there were times that I would cover my tray for a minute to
                            keep
                            > > the
                            > > > paint from drying & give the spread more time. As long as I let
                            > > the
                            > > > last paint spread, I could stack up more paint on the size. I
                            > > guess
                            > > > you could use distilled water instead, but then you are back to
                            > > the
                            > > > pigment staying in the center of the expanding circle of paint
                            and
                            > > > falling through to the bottom. The Golden GAC 900 makes the
                            paint
                            > > > spread and makes it more agressive on its spread so you can
                            > > actually
                            > > > balance your paints with it. I have marbled paper successfully
                            > > with
                            > > > this mix, but I mainly work on fabric and I've moved on to
                            other
                            > > > paint concoctions now. I think that Delta makes a fabric
                            medium,
                            > > but
                            > > > it doesn't work the same as the Golden GAC 900; it is thicker,
                            > > > heavier.
                            > > >
                            > > > Good luck! Susa Glenn
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "juliepoulton"
                            <madronewood@a...>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > > Hi! I am brand new to marbling, so I have lots of questions.
                            I do
                            > > > > have a book and I have read several websites on marbling but
                            > > > haven't
                            > > > > been
                            > > > > able to figure some things out. I am a bit desperate because
                            I
                            > > > have
                            > > > > a group of friends coming over Weds. night to do marbling
                            with
                            > > me!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The main problem I am having is the paint is rinsing right
                            off
                            > > the
                            > > > > paper. In fact, on my last one, it began to run off the paper
                            > > > before
                            > > > > I
                            > > > > even began to rinse it. And the gold paint I used did not
                            stick
                            > > to
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > paper at all! ( Though I will say the gold is quite thick,
                            even
                            > > > > diluted, so I guess it needs more dilution.)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The book I have says the problem may lie with something in my
                            > > > papers
                            > > > > (but this is happening with 3 different papers), with my alum
                            > > > > concentration(I used 1 T alum to 1 cup H2O), with having too
                            > > much
                            > > > > paint (it was a little thin and there were even some blank
                            > > spaces),
                            > > > > or
                            > > > > if my paper was too damp (was almost dry).
                            > > > >
                            > > > > My choice of papers may leave something to be desired. I used
                            > > > printer
                            > > > > paper, watercolor paper, and drawing paper. Could the paper
                            be
                            > > the
                            > > > > problem? Any suggestions for what type of appropriate paper I
                            > > > could
                            > > > > get at a Ben Franklin store?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am using carrageenan, and Delta Ceramcoat acrylic paints.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I have very hard tap water, so used distilled water to mix
                            the
                            > > > > carrageenan and to dilute my acrylic paints. However, a
                            couple
                            > > > drops
                            > > > > of hard water may have gotten in some paint colors. Can this
                            > > cause
                            > > > a
                            > > > > problem? Also, can I rinse with hard water at the end?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I am having a hard time cleaning the surface of the bath. I
                            > > tried
                            > > > to
                            > > > > clean it with 4" strips of newspaper. I must have used at
                            least
                            > > > 12
                            > > > > strips, but can't seem to get all the paint off the surface.
                            any
                            > > > > tips?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I have a vat that is too big for my 8.5 X 11 papers. Is it
                            ok to
                            > > > > "fill
                            > > > > in" the empty space with more paint after making one page,
                            then
                            > > > make
                            > > > > another page, or does the surface have to be cleaned each
                            time?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Ok, that's a lot of questions!! But if I can just get the
                            paint
                            > > to
                            > > > > stick to the papers, I will be happy!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks in advance,
                            > > > > madronewood
                            > >
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