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5231Re: Hello.

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  • Jake Benson
    Apr 14, 2009
      Thanks, Antonio,

      Just to note that I remain suspicious that the "marbled" paper mentioned in any of these documents is really a floating color technique. Obviously, the first method is a kind of pulp marbling, similar to what I mentioned, but using different fibers. Does he relate any further info on the second method, other than it having five colors? If it is attributed to someone making pulp marbling, it seems logical that it was a method related to 雲紙 yun zhi/kumogami

      Finally, there is considerable debate surrounding just what 流沙箋 "liu sha jian" or "Drifting sand paper", and whether it is a process similar to coul or an actual method of floating color. The character 'liu" is interpreted to mean "Flow", "Drift", and even "Float", and the same character is pronounced "naga" in Japanese, and is the second character found in the word for 墨流し suminagashi.

      Yet the name alone is not enough to say for certain. A description of the process is required, and I understand that the Wen Fang Si Pu neither mentions specifically floating colors, nor laying a paper over the top of them to capture the design. Is liu sha paper a kind of 電rizzled-slurrypaper, similar to what the French call coul The reference to scattering and gathering colors can be accomplished in methods of coul

      So, is the method described one in which colors are floated on a liquid surface, which is the common definition for what constitutes 杜arbled papertoday? In any case, I am not aware that any paper made with floating colors made in China has ever been discovered to confirm whether this is the case.

      Dr. Francis Richard, in his book Les Splendeurs Persane, suggested that Islamic marbled papers may have developed from a kind of coulmethd that can be observed in manuscripts from the late 14th and 15th centuries. Islamic art historian Sheila Blair subsequently described this in a paper she presented on Islamic Decorative papers as a kind of "proto-marbling". So, could we consider that Liu sha paper may be an ancestor to marbled paper, but it is not necessarily a floating color method at all?

      Jake Benson


      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, Antonio V駘ez Celem� <ANVECE@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Jake:
      >
      > Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the bark of the white mulberry tree of Kuon-Chow. Ipert tells that this is the first marbled paper known but the method remains quite dark, in his own words. He has found another dates for Hsia-Chieng: 502-549. And also the book "The callygrapher marks" written by Chang Yen Yuan during the T'ang Dinasty (618-907) speak about Hsia-Cheng telling he made excellent marbled paper in five colours, as Ipert tells.
      >
      > The next notice is about the famous "liu sha chien" cited on "The paper genealogy" Xth century, a true marbling method as this book describe it, always following Ipert.
      >
      > But on Ipert I havent found any comment on a book or scroll from the 700s.
      >
      > I hope this helps.
      >
      > Antonio
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Jake Benson
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:22 AM
      > Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > HI Iris,
      >
      > I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.
      >
      > Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yn dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.
      >
      > This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.
      >
      > Here is one image from Japan:
      >
      > http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/kaiseidou/img10353767798.jpeg
      >
      > A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:
      >
      > http://www.kakimori.jp/images/img_collections_052.jpg
      >
      > A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)
      >
      > http://bunka.nii.ac.jp/SearchDetail.do?heritageId=38251
      >
      > An article about it in Jaanus online:
      >
      > http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/u/uchigumori.htm
      >
      > As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:
      >
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Marbling/message/3529
      >
      > Jake Benson
      >
      > --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
      > >
      > > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
      > >
      > > Iris Nevins
      > > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/>
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@>
      > > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
      > > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
      > >
      > >
      > > Dear Iris,
      > > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
      > > package, did you receive it?
      > > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
      > > in one of your letters.
      > > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
      > > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
      > > Thanks,
      > > Feridun Ozgoren
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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