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5230Re: [Marbling] Re: Hello.

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  • irisnevins
    Apr 14, 2009
      Great history from both of you, thanks! Admittedly my day got crazy as it often does and I totally forgot about it all!
      Iris Nevins
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Antonio Vélez Celemín<mailto:ANVECE@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:00 AM
      Subject: Re: [Marbling] Re: Hello.

      Hello Jake:

      Ipert speak about a paper manufacturer named Hsia-Chieng (713-741) who made the first marbled paper with wild hemp from the West Mountain and the bark of the white mulberry tree of Kuon-Chow. Ipert tells that this is the first marbled paper known but the method remains quite dark, in his own words. He has found another dates for Hsia-Chieng: 502-549. And also the book "The callygrapher marks" written by Chang Yen Yuan during the T'ang Dinasty (618-907) speak about Hsia-Cheng telling he made excellent marbled paper in five colours, as Ipert tells.

      The next notice is about the famous "liu sha chien" cited on "The paper genealogy" Xth century, a true marbling method as this book describe it, always following Ipert.

      But on Ipert I havent found any comment on a book or scroll from the 700s.

      I hope this helps.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Jake Benson
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 6:22 AM
      Subject: [Marbling] Re: Hello.

      HI Iris,

      I think that Doizy & Ipert wrote about the discovery of a scroll or book decorated a kind of pulp-marbling technique, not a floating color method that we consider "marbling" today. My copy of their book is packed, so I will have to check later, (unless someone else has it at hand and can provide the answer). If I recall correctly, Stephane learned of it when he went to China.

      Richard Wolfe doesn't mention it, nor does Dr. Tsien in his extensive book on Chinese paper, though he does mention in passing on page 77 that one of the 10 kinds of colored papers made in Sichuan in the T'ang dynasty was called "light clouds", citing a 14th c Yüan dynasty text entitled Chien Chih Phu (also entitled Shu Chien Phu) but he does not provide the actual characters for the name, nor the process. He makes no other mention of this technique.

      This kind of decorative paper features a pattern made by pouring a colored pulp fiber over a natural one, and shaking it carefully, resulting in a kind of "flocked" (is that the best adjective?) pulp paper. In Japan, this is called 雲紙 "kumogami" (the characters would be pronounced "yun zhi" in Chinese). It is also called uchigumori 打曇 in Japan.

      Here is one image from Japan:


      A tanzaku panel made from this kind of paper:


      A leaf from a Kamakura period scroll (the thumbnail is at the bottom, click on it, and then click on twice more to see the enlarged image)


      An article about it in Jaanus online:


      As an aside, a few years ago, I described a manuscript in Spencer Collection in the NY Public Library that features a cover made from sheet of paper decorated with both kumogami and suminagashi. It is a very interesting piece to look at. Here's my original message about it:


      Jake Benson

      --- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, "irisnevins" <irisnevins@...> wrote:
      > Hi Feridun... yes to the first question, thanks, and as for the scroll, I have heard it mentioned many times, and forgot the details, I will try to find out more. Maybe someone here with a better memory can add something.
      > I recall reading or hearing about the Indian stencil paintings being the earliest example of marbling in the 900s until the scroll was discovered from 700s in China.
      > Iris Nevins
      > www.marblingpaper.com<http://www.marblingpaper.com/<http://www.marblingpaper.com%3chttp//www.marblingpaper.com/>>
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren>@...>
      > To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com%3Cmailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>>
      > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 1:42 AM
      > Subject: [Marbling] Hello.
      > Dear Iris,
      > First a bussines question. I had sent the check the same day I received the
      > package, did you receive it?
      > Second 's an ebru question. You mentioned a marbled Chinese scroll from 700s
      > in one of your letters.
      > Did you see any picture of it, if you did can you tell if it is done by
      > marbling as we know, or, would it be some other paper decorating technique?
      > Thanks,
      > Feridun Ozgoren
      > ------------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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