5073Re: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
- Mar 5, 2009I do prefer to buy it, but now am intrigued about papermaking!
Still, I am sure I will buy it. Raising prices does scare off my customers though and if I buy a $4.00 sheet I need to raise accordingly. I cut it very close on materials as it is.
Another issue here, is the fear of cadmium red becoming unavailable down the line. My first supplier stopped carrying it due to legal issues, though it is legal, anyone can sue anyone for anything and they had some troubles, so quit handling cadmiums. Another supplier I went to said they were stopping too. I stopped selling the cads myself out of fear of whatever, I can't handle legal fees just to win because it's legal. I will use it for my own use however, and have thankfully found a different red that works, most did not and I was going crazy with that alongside the paper issues...but am still testing it. Anyway I bought out a lot of their cad red at great expense, enough to last my lifetime of marbling. If I must do that with paper, I will do what I need to in order to keep working. When that runs out, then think about papermaking if need be!
----- Original Message -----
From: Susanne Krause<mailto:studio@...>
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 6:35 AM
Subject: [Marbling] Re: more marbling and handmade paper
you have put it more or less in a nutshell.
One thing is bothering me though, that's (predictably) the monetary side of things. You're right of course basically, it really doesn't make a difference whether a sheet is 0,10 or 0,20 or 0,25. You just buy what is best for your purposes and don't give it another thought.
Now my standard papers are ca. 0,20 Euro per sheet of 50 x 70 cm or about 20 x 27.5 inches, 90 gsm, bought by the 1000. Hand made of the same size is 4,00 Euros upwards bought by the 100. Now imagine a library ordering several hundred sheets per pattern per year and do your sums.
Be better off by making my own paper? Not in 20 years. Looking into it, most emphatically yes. Setting up? Just as emphatically no. Too much time. Too much money. Even more back breaking work than now (I started yoga in the 70ies and have kept it up more or less daily, and moreover excersize three to four times a week!). Less time for making decorated papers. I'll leave the base papers to the specialists.
--- In Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>, leech541@... wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> It goes without saying that we're all a little crazy or we wouldn't be at
> this website in the first place. That's what I love about us!
> I've been following this stream trying to figure out where to wade in, and
> now it seems to have become a raging river. I will touch on as many points that
> have been brought up as I can, and hope to contribute something useful.
> Thanks to Melinda and Oz for pulling me into the water! But where to begin?
> First I have to state my belief that there is no such thing as "good" or
> "bad" paper. There are only more or less appropriate uses for any given piece of
> paper. And that includes handmade papers. All papers are not created equal.
> Having said that, I realize I won't be able to avoid speaking in
> generalities, and you will have to take everything I say with a grain of salt. One has to
> test this all for oneself. What happens in your own studio is between you
> and the universe. The very fact that any of us can marble at all seems to, at
> times, defy logic, no?
> A little background: I've been making paper since 1978 and marbling since
> 1986. Like Iris and a lot of you, I've tried many different art forms: painting,
> welding, bronze casting, glass blowing, woodworking, musical instrument
> building. Also just about every form of printmaking there is, from potato
> printing to huge commercial offset, and that includes 30 years of letterpress
> printing. I honestly can't say how many sheets of paper that I've made or where
> they have all gone. I gave up counting at around 10,000 sheets, and that was
> in the mid-80's. As it is, I only have a small stack of my own paper right
> now. I've also collected handmade papers from all over the world, and traveled a
> bit to learn how they are made made. In a lot of ways, I came to the book
> arts as a refugee from the rest of the art scene.
> I think where this conversation started was the matter of calcium carbonate
> in papers. This has come up to the group before and I will agree that many
> commercial papers that are buffered with it just "don't work" for marbling. But
> I add plenty of calcium carbonate to my own papers and they still marble
> just fine. I don't think it's ONLY the calcium that it is the problem. It's how
> it is combined with other chemistry and processes. (Is that vague enough?!)
> I also have experience with mills changing formulae and having a paper that
> marbled just great suddenly become useless. That happened with Strathmore 500
> charcoal papers in the 90's. (I fully realize that some of you might be
> using that now and not having any problems with it - that's just the nature of
> marbling. What works for one artist might not work for another.) Presently my
> paper of choice for marbling is Arches Text. It comes in both laid and wove
> and white and cream. For me, it marbles like a dream. And guess what. It's
> I don't go through the huge amount of paper that Iris does, but I do buy 50
> - 100 sheets at a time every couple of months. I have to ask the question of
> why is it so important to save a little money on a sheet of paper? Doesn't
> that just cheapen what we are offering? If the cost of everything else keeps
> going up, why can't or shouldn't our cost be passed on too? If I have to pay
> even a dollar more for a sheet of paper, then I'll charge a dollar more for it
> after it's marbled. Commercial printers are notorious for cutting their our
> throats by underbidding a job, and I hate to see marblers doing it too. I know
> the argument that re-sellers won't buy the papers if the price goes up, but
> I think that creates the expectation that marbled papers need to be cheap.
> And they shouldn't be. Not all marbled papers are created equal either.
> Sure, some might be worth five dollars a sheet, but some are worth five hundred.
> I don't know how to tackle the subject of marblers making their own paper. I
> would suggest that if you are just getting started, read everything you can
> find about handmade paper. Start with Dard Hunter. If you aren't overwhelmed
> by the complexities and varieties of papermaking after reading him, proceed
> with caution. It is true that you can have fun and get started in your kitchen
> with inexpensive equipment, but the costs will escalate dramatically as you
> get more serious. And speaking of getting serious, you should seriously take
> up yoga and learn how to lift and bend properly. (Did I mention I've also had
> 2 back surgeries?) And before you take on any big commissions, make sure you
> can, and really do, want to make a couple thousand identical sheets. There
> is a good reason why a "good" sheet of handmade paper (18 x 24 inches or so)
> costs 5 - 10 dollars a sheet. If you think that is too much then you don't
> understand paper.
> If you are going to make paper for other people, find out how it is to be
> used. A paper that is used to wrap bookboards will be different than a paper
> used for endsheets, which will be different than paper that will be printed on.
> And if it is to be printed on, a paper used for letterpress will be
> different from a paper for litho, which will be different than a paper used for
> silkscreen, which will be different for a paper used for calligraphy, which will
> be different than a paper used for watercolor, which will be different than a
> paper used for....
> But if you are making paper only for yourself, then you can experiment and
> learn all this on your own time and own dime. And if you live long enough and
> don't break you back it will really make for an interesting life. And you meet
> a lot of great people!
> Well, It's getting late, and I'd like to get some sleep before going off to
> my other job. Good luck!
> **************Need a job? Find employment help in your area.
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