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2635Re: [Marbling] Hello.

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  • IRIS NEVINS
    Dec 24, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks so much! I wondered.....

      Oh it would be wonderful to not have to worry about alum at all!

      Thanks....
      Happy Holidays to you and Nan

      Iris
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Feridun Ozgoren<mailto:feridun.ozgoren@...>
      To: Marbling@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Marbling@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 3:53 PM
      Subject: [Marbling] Hello.



      Dear Iris,



      "Does buffering make a difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for
      marbling even with alum?". Buffering prevents the paper from absorbing alum.
      Therefore paints do not stick to the paper.

      "I wonder if the traditional earth paints will hold on ANY paper without
      alum?"

      I don't think so. There are so many types of buffering on with varying
      degrees of strenght. I think, depending on the materials used and the
      strenght of buffering will make difference in the absorbency of the paper.

      A strong buffering on the surface will create a thicker and stronger barrier
      between the pigment and the fiber of the paper. As you know very well there
      are other variables effecting the adherence of the pigment molecules to the
      paper one uses. Chemical structure of the pigments, binder used in making
      the colors, strenght of the alum, whether alum was added to the paper pulp
      in pruduction (this question was originally raised by Jake), thickness of
      the size, etc. Ochers and sienas (oxides in general) you mention certainly
      has a property which makes them more adherent, even without alum. But no red
      ocher or siena will produce bright red as you mention.

      Whether to use alum or not mostly depend on what type of ebru you make. For
      a single ebru application, and in most cases (where brilliant colors
      desired), an absorbent paper would work just fine without alum. But in
      multiple ebru applications like marbled pictures and caligraphic panels alum
      is a must.

      You are right when you say you need alum to be able to reproduce 19. century
      papers, I think by then alum was in use extensively, in Europe any way.

      As to the statement "if the balance between the thickness of the liquid and
      the amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the
      quality of the resulting ebru is always the same whether the paper is
      treated with alum or not", I disagree totally with the phrase "always the
      same". Yes, the balance between the thickness of the size and the colors is
      extremly important one and Turkish marblers really mastered the technique,
      but stating that whether you use alum or not results will be the same
      indicates that alum has no function and plays no role at all. We know this
      is not the case.



      Actually I studied the web site mentioned. As for now I will just say that
      writing history should be responsibly different from telling stories.



      Best wishes,

      Feridun Ozgoren









      _____

      From: IRIS NEVINS [mailto:irisnevins@...]
      Sent: Friday, December 24, 2004 9:10 AM
      To: Marbling Group
      Subject: [Marbling] question for Jake?



      Jake.........or maybe Feridun too.....I wonder if the traditional earth
      paints will hold on ANY paper without alum? Or is it just fairly absorbent,
      non buffered paper used in traditional Ebru? Does buffering make a
      difference etc. as it has ruined many papers for marbling even with alum?

      I have success marbling with ochres and lamp black for example, without
      alum, but not on all paper. It works on my Ingres pretty well sans alum, it
      is very soft and absorbs color well. No such luck on smoother papers, though
      better than other pigments. Is there a good deep true red to be found that
      is an earth pigment though? Needing no alum? Red ochre is the closest I can
      use without alum, but it is not red enough for much of my work.

      I don't think I am an "inexperienced marbler", though it is a never ending
      learning process and in that sense there are of course things I am not
      experienced in yet, sometimes I think a whole lifetime is not enough to
      learn it all ....and it is surely humbling many times! Still I need
      alum.....mainly because of having to use so much red because I need to be
      able to reproduce those 19th century papers (as close as possible
      anyway.....and never good enough for my obsessive compulsive perfectionistic
      personality!). I have never been able to make a cadmium red stay on the
      paper without alum.

      I loved this Ebru site.....thanks for the English version Milena....it's a
      keeper!

      Iris Nevins

      <<<<Another important characteristic of traditional Turkish ebru is that the
      papers used are never treated with alum or anything else and the ebru paper
      is stripped off the marbling tray such that no unnecessary size is left on
      the paper. Ready to use gouache, acrylic or natural whatever dye is used, if
      the balance between the thickness of the liquid and the amount of water and
      ox-gall in the dyes is properly achieved, the quality of the resulting ebru
      is always the same whether the paper is treated with alum or not. The paper
      has to be washed off to clean the remaining size on the paper if the paper
      is treated with alum prior to marbling. This results in a huge amount of
      waste of size. Treating the paper with alum is a method used by
      inexperienced marblers to get rid of the need of accurately adjusting the
      amount of water and ox-gall in the dyes. For the reasons given above, the
      ebru paper is never treated with alum in traditional Turkish ebru.>>>>>>

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