Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Cross

Expand Messages
  • rinsamkenya
    Dear John Sir I have already Said that veneration of Cross did not originate in early church during the time of Apostles! I have gone through varius articles
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 15, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear John Sir
      I have already Said that veneration of Cross did not originate in early church during the time of Apostles! I have gone through varius articles written by Malankara orthodox church writers in this issue/ subject and our tradition of Veneration of Cross started after the recovery of Cross(The Cross on which Jesus was crucified)by the Roman Emperor and his mother and after the construction of "Cross Church" by the emperor near Jerusalem in A.D.336
      What St.Paul mentioned "Cross" in the epistles of Galatians and Philippines are misquoted by church fathers for the use of veneration of Cross in Church.Cross is not a heavenly reality at all! Crucification was a capital punishment followed by Romans before Christ and continued until 3rd centuary after Christ, for persecuting Christians!After emperor Constantine became Christian persecution of Christians by crucification were stopped!
      Cross is not the image of God whereby He created men(human beings)!what you have been trying to staten for sometimes in varius MoSC forums regarding the Image/Likeness of God are also totally misconception, baseless/illogic and unreasonable!In the Book of revelation the heavenly realities are described whereby no sign or emblem of Cross is neither represented/ appeared or described!
      Cross is a tool/instrument used for crucification by Romans!To Jesus it became an altar of his Sacrifice for the redumption of souls out of sin!
      Jesus Christ also used a Donkey/Colt during his triumphant entry into Jesusalem prior to his passion and crucification!are you going to eaxalt donkey like cross?The Cross has got a place like the Brass/bronze serpant/snake that Moses raised in the Desert(numbers 21:9/John 3:14)!When Jesus told his disciples that "if any one wants to come with me ,he must forget self,carry his Cross,and follow me"(mathew16:24) is this literally mean that everybody to make a cross(wooden cross) and follow him?
      I am not dangling with bible verses as alleged by yourselves.I have gone through the subject issue of Veneration of Cross and been
      in touch with many teachers and writers of MOSC regarding this,up to now they failed to give me a proper or valid explaination regarding the veneration of Cross!

      Thomas Samuel


      --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, ES John <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear All,
      > "Cross is our Glory(Gal:614):-in this verse St.Paul Says that entire
      > world system and all its glory is in opposition to the God ,is dead or
      > destroyed in its power to attract him>it has no influence  or power
      > over St.Paul.He is dead to the desires and attractions of world for he
      > serves his sole master Christ!  Cross is Glory when you understand its
      > real quoted here in  and not figurative or emblematic sense that you
      > described The enemies of Cross (Philip 3:18-19):-Philip 3:18 refers to those who
      > made captive to deitary laws, Circumcision and disciplene!The enemies
      > of Cross are Judaizers of worldly people in General!They are
      > worshippers of themselves or their belly and are consumed with earthly
      > things!your comment here  is illogic and unreasonable!"
      >
      > We are all dangling with some biblical verses that have different connotations and meanings in tune with certain contexts. Flowery language and figurative usages have some limitations which don't display the literal meanings and truths. An ensembling knowledge of the relevant portions should be the ultimate aim of scriptural studies. We all have limitations in our perceptions of Heavenly realities that have revealed to us through some spiritual luminaries. As their visions are revelations, it is our duty to follow what they say because no scientific data or critical analysis won't be given there. They all are commandments that appear in parables, allegories, aphorisms, etc and our duty is to obey them. Adam, the first recipient of the of the commandment, was not given the implications of the commandment. If he had obeyed it, no detrimental consequences, so also Saul the first king of Israel.
      >
      >
      > Veneration of the cross and bowing at the foot of the cross is one of them, though the reasons are not given there. When we analyse the reasons, the salient fact of the image and likeness of the cross comes to the forefront. It is the symbolic worship of Jesus' passions of the Calvary sacrifice. If it is the representation of the agony of Jesus, it is indirectly the pain of the Holy Trinity who is inseparable, Jn.10: 30. Therefore, the prostration of the cross is not an idol worship but an inevitable form of the worship of the Triune God. Just like in the military, don't question but obey is the duty of the believer. When people thrust that God is Spirit, we are forced to prove that God has human image and likeness, making man as a demi-God as the responsibility of the Creator, Ps.8. Animals are not asked to worship God because they are not made in the image and likeness of God, despite they have legs and hands. They were also not asked against eating
      > any fruits in Eden garden. But when God wants us to worship Him, know that we are of His image and likeness, the cross-shaped. God created man with His hands, whereas the fauna and flora are the outcome of His utterance. If God is ineffable and unutterable, don't try to prove that God is Spirit on the basis of some fragmentary verses. An ensemble of all correlated verses are to be taken into account for arriving at a reasonable conclusion, Is.34: 16.
      >
      > E.S.John, Australia
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • rinsamkenya
      Dear Jose My answer to you response and comments are included in reply to comments by E.S. John!the verses supporting the veneration cross given by yourselves
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 15, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Jose
        My answer to you response and comments are included in reply to comments by E.S. John!the verses supporting the veneration cross given by yourselves or by orthodox tradition are irrevelant and this pratice of veneration began in church only after A.D.336!
        regards
        Thomas Samuel
        --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Sirs,
        > What I have written is the way we orthodox venerate the cross . It is
        > our faith and it is supported by appropriate Bible verses . If you
        > respect the cross , it actually means you respect t the one who was
        > crucified on it. All our bishops and churches are carrying the cross as
        > an emblem.. It signifies Christianity and the church belongs to Christ.
        >
        > I cant see any flowery language here . I have not misquoted or misled. I
        > have said what is the orthodox faith.
        >
        > Jose
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Samuel
        > <rinsamkenya@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Josethank you for comments!however take the real sense of Cross
        > or its real meaning What you quoted are not considered as supportive to
        > your claims regarding the" cross"Before being crucified on Cross Jesus
        > Christ took his 'Cross" on real life!From his birth to death as a human
        > being he was bearing the cross!bearing the cross means forget
        > the"Self"and this means being God, Jesus became like one of us!(Philip
        > 2:5-8).Here in these verses underline the meaning of Cross!
        > > Cross is our Glory(Gal:614):-in this verse St.Paul Says that entire
        > world system and all its glory is in opposition to the God ,is dead or
        > destroyed in its power to attract him>it has no influence or power over
        > St.Paul.He is dead to the desires and attractions of world for he serves
        > his sole master Christ! Cross is Glory when you understand its real
        > quoted here in and not figurative or emblematic sense that you
        > described
        > > The enemies of Cross (Philip 3:18-19):-Philip 3:18 refers to those who
        > made captive to deitary laws, Circumcision and disciplene!The enemies of
        > Cross are Judaizers of worldly people in General!They are worshippers of
        > themselves or their belly and are consumed with earthly things!your
        > comment here is illogic and unreasonable!It
        > > Cross is Blessingful(genesis 48:3)When Abraham was blessed by the Lord
        > there were no emblematic sign of Cross!When Jacob was blessing the sons
        > of Joseph he was speaking about (1) his vision of God at Bethel(luz)
        > secondly he (jacob) elevates his two grandsons staus to the status of
        > Ruben and Simeon !This was resulted in the two tribes of Ephraim and
        > Manessaih inheriting the promised land of canan ,one sixth of the
        > territory!This double portion of inheritance represents that Joseph was
        > designated to the "first born" in place of Ruben!(1corinth 5:1-2)the
        > history says/reveals that Ephramites become one of the leading tribes
        > with Joshua guiding the people into the promised land >but Ephramites
        > are later rejected by God in favour of Judah(psalms 78:67-71)Thirdly
        > Jacob recalls the death of Joseph's mother Rachel !These three
        > things are not representing the Cross of Jesus! please study/read
        > carefully the verses in scriptures1
        > > In the book of Revelation we read about many OT symbolic items such
        > asGolden Censor ,Lamp and Incense in heaven however we cannot see
        > anything like cross!When the angel of God imprisioned satan (devil) he
        > was using the Key and chain (rev.20:1-3).
        > > The Cross was used as a tool or instrument for death punishment by
        > Romans before Christ and after Christ until 3rd Centuary!
        > they(romans)used to crucify slaves and noncitizens of Roman empire for
        > captal punishment!Please verify your comments in the light of Gospel of
        > Christ!
        > >
        > > Thomas Samuel
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • ES John
        Dear Mr.Thomas Samuel, I am not dangling with bible verses as alleged by yourselves.I have gone through the subject issue of Veneration of Cross and been  in
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 15, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Mr.Thomas Samuel,
          I am not dangling with bible verses as alleged by yourselves.I have
          gone through the subject issue of Veneration of Cross and been  in touch with many teachers and writers of MOSC regarding this,up to
          now they failed to give me a proper or valid explaination regarding the
          veneration of Cross!"

          Kindly get out of the stereotyped and classical explanations that have been given from time to time by certain intellectual head weights.  Look for the additional dimensions that are hidden in the observations or revelations of church Fathers. I had given explanations of this image and likeness, form and reflection of God, as indicated by Gregory of Nysa. New reflections of the same revelations appear on the surface in tune with the cultural and moral changes of the society. For Example, women's ordination. Delve deep into the mysteries and learn the new pearls hidden there.

          "I have already Said that veneration of Cross did not originate in early
          church during the time of Apostles! I have gone through various articles
          written by Malankara orthodox church writers in this issue/ subject and
          our tradition of Veneration of Cross started after the recovery of
          Cross(The Cross on which Jesus was crucified)by the Roman Emperor and
          his mother and after the construction of "Cross Church" by the emperor
          near Jerusalem in A.D.336"

          There were only catacombs in the beginning due to persecution. Does it mean that we shouldn't have open air or church worship? There was no mention of the word 'Holy qurbana', instead the Pauline epistle state it as 'breaking of bread' that the many extreme churches do now a days. Does it mean that we have to go to Pentecostal churches which are over 150 sects now. Instead of understanding the spirit of certain statements modern theologians or interpreters add religious poison into the cauldron for their own spirit of megalomania that make cheap popularity and hero worship and money-grabbing. Get out of our inner self and worship the truth wherever we come across. When the time became ripe the church worship and veneration of the cross started at the time of Constantine emperor. Two articles were published in Malankara Sabha magazine in 2009 from a bishop who validated same-sex relationship, so also some bishops arguing for women's ordination in the
          church. Sift between the chaff and wheat. Avoid stereotyped sophistication. 
          "Cross is not the image of God whereby He created men(human beings)!what
          you have been trying to staten for sometimes in various MoSC forums
          regarding the Image/Likeness of God are also totally misconception,
          baseless/illogic and unreasonable!In the Book of revelation the
          heavenly realities are described whereby no sign or emblem of Cross is
          neither represented/ appeared or described!"
          66 books are not the history and the illustration of the redemptive scheme of man. My yesterday's reply may open your eyes that clearly state that animals though have two legs and two hands, are not created in the image of God. Man is the paragon of animals, Ps.8. God created us in His shape with His own hands and glorified with His own brightness and light, but we fell and lost a part of it. Why should I waste my time again when you stick to your own self that impede your spiritual progress. Our Fathers were all human beings with our own blood and flesh, but they went through struggles by taking the daily cross, not with armchair rigmarole, and portrayed the hideous and heinous crucifixion death as a glory. Satan wanted to destroy the image, cross-shaped, of man in his shape and glory or grace by crucifying him; Jesus took it as a challenge and revived his  image by His own death on the cross. Satan wanted to convert man's shape as animals and destroy
          the grace, garb of incorruption, of God that he bequeathed from. Satan take any form of animals, Lk.10: 18-19, as in the case of borrowing serpent's shape in Eden. At the end of the time, the world population that is of animal taste will welcome the Beast from the bottom, Rev.13: 1.The crucifixion death in OT times was to annihilate the shape, image, of man as walking animals because God is in the human form of cross. Crucifixion death of man indirectly is the crucifixion of God who implicitly put dust in the eyes of Satan by raising the bronze cross in the desert.  Know that there was a duel between God and Satan from timelessness which is being continued for a direct confrontation between them. God has to wage a hidden war by disguising His identity to Satan. These are all called the mysteries in the annals of God's redemptive plans.

          If you don't try to penetrate into such mysteries, I find it hard to change your thought process because every man is born with certain predisposition. Such a spiritual metamorphosis is a continual and perpetual battle which spin our garment of incorruption. If I have said something distasteful, kindly forgive.


          E.S.John, Australia

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • RinuSam
          Dear John Sir How many of Our Fathers has really gone with Daily Cross in this world apart from 1st to 3rd centuary A.D.? after emperor Constantine became
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 15, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear John Sir
            How many of Our Fathers has really gone with 'Daily Cross' in this world apart from 1st to 3rd centuary A.D.? after emperor Constantine became Christian ,the christians were given freedom how many of them really walked in the path of Christ or his Cross?
            Now look at the Cross ,all people use it as a mere emblem but behave like un bearers of Cross!"those who follow Jesus should deny themselves and follow him by carrying own cross daily">this not happening in this world,without carrying the cross only to celebrate the Holy Qurbana/Eucharist giving prime importance to only that sacrement cannot be termed as carrying "his Cross" Those earlier apostles and disciples really followed the commandment of Jesus that denying themselves in their own daily lives and dedicated themselves to Christ as their sole master and God,the entire world system and its all glory in opposition to the God was dead or destroyed in its power to attract them or the glory of the world has no influence or power over the early apostles is true the way they celebrated Holy Eucharist and became martyrs of Jesus Christ the Lord!Those apostles were not carrying any wooden/metallic cross with red linen to preach kingdom of God in order to witness Christ!
            The Whole measuring Rod of Christian life is 'Cross' Whereby the Cross reveals /shows love,sacrifice,perseverance,patience,mercy,sympathy ,redemption and eternal life!This Cross of Christ has become a symbol of Power ,position,wealth and Self glory at present!however
            when apostle Paul said that he is boasting on the cross(gal6:14) he was dead to the desires and attractions of the world,for he is serving Jesus without any power,position,wealth and glory of this world!veneration of Cross in the real sense is that we live as followers of Christ by not imitating this world,its glory and power!

            With regards




            --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, ES John <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Mr.Thomas Samuel,
            > I am not dangling with bible verses as alleged by yourselves.I have
            > gone through the subject issue of Veneration of Cross and been  in touch with many teachers and writers of MOSC regarding this,up to
            > now they failed to give me a proper or valid explaination regarding the
            > veneration of Cross!"
            >
            > Kindly get out of the stereotyped and classical explanations that have been given from time to time by certain intellectual head weights.  Look for the additional dimensions that are hidden in the observations or revelations of church Fathers. I had given explanations of this image and likeness, form and reflection of God, as indicated by Gregory of Nysa. New reflections of the same revelations appear on the surface in tune with the cultural and moral changes of the society. For Example, women's ordination. Delve deep into the mysteries and learn the new pearls hidden there.
            >
            > "I have already Said that veneration of Cross did not originate in early
            > church during the time of Apostles! I have gone through various articles
            > written by Malankara orthodox church writers in this issue/ subject and
            > our tradition of Veneration of Cross started after the recovery of
            > Cross(The Cross on which Jesus was crucified)by the Roman Emperor and
            > his mother and after the construction of "Cross Church" by the emperor
            > near Jerusalem in A.D.336"
            >
            > There were only catacombs in the beginning due to persecution. Does it mean that we shouldn't have open air or church worship? There was no mention of the word 'Holy qurbana', instead the Pauline epistle state it as 'breaking of bread' that the many extreme churches do now a days. Does it mean that we have to go to Pentecostal churches which are over 150 sects now. Instead of understanding the spirit of certain statements modern theologians or interpreters add religious poison into the cauldron for their own spirit of megalomania that make cheap popularity and hero worship and money-grabbing. Get out of our inner self and worship the truth wherever we come across. When the time became ripe the church worship and veneration of the cross started at the time of Constantine emperor. Two articles were published in Malankara Sabha magazine in 2009 from a bishop who validated same-sex relationship, so also some bishops arguing for women's ordination in the
            > church. Sift between the chaff and wheat. Avoid stereotyped sophistication. 
            > "Cross is not the image of God whereby He created men(human beings)!what
            > you have been trying to staten for sometimes in various MoSC forums
            > regarding the Image/Likeness of God are also totally misconception,
            > baseless/illogic and unreasonable!In the Book of revelation the
            > heavenly realities are described whereby no sign or emblem of Cross is
            > neither represented/ appeared or described!"
            > 66 books are not the history and the illustration of the redemptive scheme of man. My yesterday's reply may open your eyes that clearly state that animals though have two legs and two hands, are not created in the image of God. Man is the paragon of animals, Ps.8. God created us in His shape with His own hands and glorified with His own brightness and light, but we fell and lost a part of it. Why should I waste my time again when you stick to your own self that impede your spiritual progress. Our Fathers were all human beings with our own blood and flesh, but they went through struggles by taking the daily cross, not with armchair rigmarole, and portrayed the hideous and heinous crucifixion death as a glory. Satan wanted to destroy the image, cross-shaped, of man in his shape and glory or grace by crucifying him; Jesus took it as a challenge and revived his  image by His own death on the cross. Satan wanted to convert man's shape as animals and destroy
            > the grace, garb of incorruption, of God that he bequeathed from. Satan take any form of animals, Lk.10: 18-19, as in the case of borrowing serpent's shape in Eden. At the end of the time, the world population that is of animal taste will welcome the Beast from the bottom, Rev.13: 1.The crucifixion death in OT times was to annihilate the shape, image, of man as walking animals because God is in the human form of cross. Crucifixion death of man indirectly is the crucifixion of God who implicitly put dust in the eyes of Satan by raising the bronze cross in the desert.  Know that there was a duel between God and Satan from timelessness which is being continued for a direct confrontation between them. God has to wage a hidden war by disguising His identity to Satan. These are all called the mysteries in the annals of God's redemptive plans.
            >
            > If you don't try to penetrate into such mysteries, I find it hard to change your thought process because every man is born with certain predisposition. Such a spiritual metamorphosis is a continual and perpetual battle which spin our garment of incorruption. If I have said something distasteful, kindly forgive.
            >
            >
            > E.S.John, Australia
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • jose_ua
            Dear Sirs, I cannot see any reason why we must replace the cross with any other emblem. Does it matter if veneration of cross started after discovery of the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 15, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Sirs,
              I cannot see any reason why we must replace the cross with any other emblem. Does it matter if veneration of cross started after discovery of the cross in Constantine's era. The relics of St. George were used from AD 232 onwards itself . Is it wrong to venerate these holy items and saints.

              Our bishops and churches have always used the cross as an emblem. Some people who are using gold cross or diamond cross or even wood cross may treat it as a memento. But to us the cross means trials, victory and salvation. This we cannot change .

              The church venerates the cross so much that we even celebrate a Feast on the day the cross of our Lord was discovered , Sleeba Perunal. Also whenever the priest says Sleeba we cross ourselves. We identify ourselves with Him who shed his holy blood on the cross.

              Just because some of our priests / bishops are not behaving well nothing is wrong with the ORTHODOX FAITH. These are certain subtle matters to be taken as the Lord taught us. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you— but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice." ( Mathew 23: 1-3)

              Our church also has the good fortune of having a number of god fearing shepherds ; examples of our Parumala thirumeni, Vatteseril thirumeni, Pampady thirumeni, not to mention in our own times Osthathios thirumeni, etc.. They are some examples to follow . So many others are there also who following the Lord secretly. When He comes again surely He will reward them in the open.

              Mooran eeso! Kurisum nin..

              By thy Cross O Jesus Lord
              By thy mothers praying word
              take from us and from our path
              Punishments and rods of wrath

              S/d
              Jose
            • RinuSam
              Dear Jose Moraneesho Kurishum nin...../ By Thy Cross,Lord Jesus.......... Oh Jesus Christ the Lord by your cross and through the intercession prayer of your
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 16, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Jose
                Moraneesho Kurishum nin...../ By Thy Cross,Lord Jesus..........
                Oh Jesus Christ the Lord by your cross and through the intercession prayer of your mother wipe off your anger and Punishments!
                this hymn has nothing to do with our subject discussion in this Forum!
                Here the Cross refers to the sufferings of our Lord Jesus on Golgotha and his sacrificial death on cross for us sinners!
                What we actually discussing was about the VENERATION OF CROSS by orthodox church whereby our church praising/worshipping the cross as
                life giving sourceto human beings( refer to Sleeba vandanavu Hymns and Prayer on Good Friday service) this is the issue here for discussion!
                !
                regards
                Rinu Sam

                --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Sirs,
                > I cannot see any reason why we must replace the cross with any other emblem. Does it matter if veneration of cross started after discovery of the cross in Constantine's era. The relics of St. George were used from AD 232 onwards itself . Is it wrong to venerate these holy items and saints.
                >
                > Our bishops and churches have always used the cross as an emblem. Some people who are using gold cross or diamond cross or even wood cross may treat it as a memento. But to us the cross means trials, victory and salvation. This we cannot change .
                >
                > The church venerates the cross so much that we even celebrate a Feast on the day the cross of our Lord was discovered , Sleeba Perunal. Also whenever the priest says Sleeba we cross ourselves. We identify ourselves with Him who shed his holy blood on the cross.
                >
                > Just because some of our priests / bishops are not behaving well nothing is wrong with the ORTHODOX FAITH. These are certain subtle matters to be taken as the Lord taught us. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you— but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice." ( Mathew 23: 1-3)
                >
                > Our church also has the good fortune of having a number of god fearing shepherds ; examples of our Parumala thirumeni, Vatteseril thirumeni, Pampady thirumeni, not to mention in our own times Osthathios thirumeni, etc.. They are some examples to follow . So many others are there also who following the Lord secretly. When He comes again surely He will reward them in the open.
                >
                > Mooran eeso! Kurisum nin..
                >
                > By thy Cross O Jesus Lord
                > By thy mothers praying word
                > take from us and from our path
                > Punishments and rods of wrath
                >
                > S/d
                > Jose
                >
              • RinuSam
                Dear John Sir There are no evidence that you can support for your claims of true worship in spirit and truth from early apostolic time of Disciples of Jesus
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 17, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear John Sir
                  There are no evidence that you can support for your claims of true worship in spirit and truth from early apostolic time of Disciples of Jesus Christ! Veneration of cross took place only after A.D. 336 and the present day of orthodox worship was came in practise during 5th centuary A.D.When we adore/worship the 'Cross' as Lifegiving,is not worshiping God in truth and Spirit! When Bronze serpant was raised in desert by Moses the Isralites did not worship that Bronse Serpant.

                  The article by L/L H.G.Dr Paulose Mar Gregorios ,the world renown orthodox Pundit of MOSC(on Veneration of Cross) says that according to Holy father Mar Ivanios (Golden tongue)that Jesus went with his Cross in heaven and in second coming he(Jesus) is going to bringit back the cross (which was originally used to hang/nailed Jesus)what kind of mystery or teaching is this?The cross which Jesus hanged was recovered by Queen Helen 300rears later from golgotha then they kept the cross in a new church building known as cross church
                  This statement by Mar Ivanios has no basis in the scriptures!In the new testament gospels and epistles there are various quotes regarding the second coming of Jesus!
                  The book of revelation which also call the Lord as SPIRIT there are no mention of Cross anywhere!In the book of revelation records the war in heaven between Satan/serpant and Angels of Gabriel(rev12:7-8)
                  This Book thoroughly/clearly mention that God is Spirit!

                  Your Theory of God as man in the form of Cross has no basis in bible/scriptures!When Moses was called by Lord in the bush there were fire!How did We know it was Lord who Spoke to Moses?God as creater of universe can take any form anywhere. God's existence reflects in his creations
                  Christ took the human form as he is Logos!Jesus is the life giving spirit!The spirit that give life or the spirit that make alive(2corinth3:16,1Peter 3:18) Lord Jesus Christ entered into a new kind of existence when he was raised from the dead because HE was glorified and simultaneously became life giving spirit!Jesus became spirit in the sense that his mortal existence and form were changed into that which is Spiritual!As one now united in Spirit in a glorified body Jesus is no longer bound by his mortal body!He is alive in the spirit to give life to all( who are true believers).This is why st.Paul speaks of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ(romans 8:2)

                  Let us praise the Lifegiving spirit,the God!

                  With regards
                  Rinu Sam

                  --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, ES John <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Mr.Thomas Samuel,
                  > I am not dangling with bible verses as alleged by yourselves.I have
                  > gone through the subject issue of Veneration of Cross and been  in touch with many teachers and writers of MOSC regarding this,up to
                  > now they failed to give me a proper or valid explaination regarding the
                  > veneration of Cross!"
                  >
                  > Kindly get out of the stereotyped and classical explanations that have been given from time to time by certain intellectual head weights.  Look for the additional dimensions that are hidden in the observations or revelations of church Fathers. I had given explanations of this image and likeness, form and reflection of God, as indicated by Gregory of Nysa. New reflections of the same revelations appear on the surface in tune with the cultural and moral changes of the society. For Example, women's ordination. Delve deep into the mysteries and learn the new pearls hidden there.
                  >
                  > "I have already Said that veneration of Cross did not originate in early
                  > church during the time of Apostles! I have gone through various articles
                  > written by Malankara orthodox church writers in this issue/ subject and
                  > our tradition of Veneration of Cross started after the recovery of
                  > Cross(The Cross on which Jesus was crucified)by the Roman Emperor and
                  > his mother and after the construction of "Cross Church" by the emperor
                  > near Jerusalem in A.D.336"
                  >
                  > There were only catacombs in the beginning due to persecution. Does it mean that we shouldn't have open air or church worship? There was no mention of the word 'Holy qurbana', instead the Pauline epistle state it as 'breaking of bread' that the many extreme churches do now a days. Does it mean that we have to go to Pentecostal churches which are over 150 sects now. Instead of understanding the spirit of certain statements modern theologians or interpreters add religious poison into the cauldron for their own spirit of megalomania that make cheap popularity and hero worship and money-grabbing. Get out of our inner self and worship the truth wherever we come across. When the time became ripe the church worship and veneration of the cross started at the time of Constantine emperor. Two articles were published in Malankara Sabha magazine in 2009 from a bishop who validated same-sex relationship, so also some bishops arguing for women's ordination in the
                  > church. Sift between the chaff and wheat. Avoid stereotyped sophistication. 
                  > "Cross is not the image of God whereby He created men(human beings)!what
                  > you have been trying to staten for sometimes in various MoSC forums
                  > regarding the Image/Likeness of God are also totally misconception,
                  > baseless/illogic and unreasonable!In the Book of revelation the
                  > heavenly realities are described whereby no sign or emblem of Cross is
                  > neither represented/ appeared or described!"
                  > 66 books are not the history and the illustration of the redemptive scheme of man. My yesterday's reply may open your eyes that clearly state that animals though have two legs and two hands, are not created in the image of God. Man is the paragon of animals, Ps.8. God created us in His shape with His own hands and glorified with His own brightness and light, but we fell and lost a part of it. Why should I waste my time again when you stick to your own self that impede your spiritual progress. Our Fathers were all human beings with our own blood and flesh, but they went through struggles by taking the daily cross, not with armchair rigmarole, and portrayed the hideous and heinous crucifixion death as a glory. Satan wanted to destroy the image, cross-shaped, of man in his shape and glory or grace by crucifying him; Jesus took it as a challenge and revived his  image by His own death on the cross. Satan wanted to convert man's shape as animals and destroy
                  > the grace, garb of incorruption, of God that he bequeathed from. Satan take any form of animals, Lk.10: 18-19, as in the case of borrowing serpent's shape in Eden. At the end of the time, the world population that is of animal taste will welcome the Beast from the bottom, Rev.13: 1.The crucifixion death in OT times was to annihilate the shape, image, of man as walking animals because God is in the human form of cross. Crucifixion death of man indirectly is the crucifixion of God who implicitly put dust in the eyes of Satan by raising the bronze cross in the desert.  Know that there was a duel between God and Satan from timelessness which is being continued for a direct confrontation between them. God has to wage a hidden war by disguising His identity to Satan. These are all called the mysteries in the annals of God's redemptive plans.
                  >
                  > If you don't try to penetrate into such mysteries, I find it hard to change your thought process because every man is born with certain predisposition. Such a spiritual metamorphosis is a continual and perpetual battle which spin our garment of incorruption. If I have said something distasteful, kindly forgive.
                  >
                  >
                  > E.S.John, Australia
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • ES John
                  Dear Mr.Rinu Sam, About 2 weeks back I gave some verses from the bible. You have not yet replied after referring them. So ask you to read them and know that
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 17, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Mr.Rinu Sam,
                    About 2 weeks back I gave some verses from the bible. You have not yet replied after referring them. So ask you to read them and know that God is in human form, our image that we got from Him.

                    E.S.John, Australia


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jose_ua
                    Dear Sam sir, Veneration of the cross is the most important part of Orthodoxy. Even as we venerate the the Mother of God. These are certain unique events which
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 18, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Sam sir,
                      Veneration of the cross is the most important part of Orthodoxy. Even as we venerate the the Mother of God. These are certain unique events which the world has seen . Is there any other comparison to it.

                      The law of God forbids any image worship but the cross is not an image of anything. It solely represents the Lord Jesus Christ. To further clarify . Our dear Osthathios thirumeni compared the cross we use to the crucifix Catholics wear. He said " We believe in the resurrected Christ".


                      Kurish aaanu raksha
                      ( The CROSS is Salvation)

                      Kurishil aaanu raksha
                      ( The Crucified One gives Salvation)

                      Kurise nammi cheedunu
                      ( We bow before the CROSS )

                      Warm regards
                      Jose









                      --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "RinuSam" <rinsam2002@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Jose
                      > Moraneesho Kurishum nin...../ By Thy Cross,Lord Jesus..........
                      > Oh Jesus Christ the Lord by your cross and through the intercession prayer of your mother wipe off your anger and Punishments!
                      > this hymn has nothing to do with our subject discussion in this Forum!
                      > Here the Cross refers to the sufferings of our Lord Jesus on Golgotha and his sacrificial death on cross for us sinners!
                      > What we actually discussing was about the VENERATION OF CROSS by orthodox church whereby our church praising/worshipping the cross as
                      > life giving sourceto human beings( refer to Sleeba vandanavu Hymns and Prayer on Good Friday service) this is the issue here for discussion!
                      > !
                      > regards
                      > Rinu Sam
                      >
                      > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Sirs,
                      > > I cannot see any reason why we must replace the cross with any other emblem. Does it matter if veneration of cross started after discovery of the cross in Constantine's era. The relics of St. George were used from AD 232 onwards itself . Is it wrong to venerate these holy items and saints.
                      > >
                      > > Our bishops and churches have always used the cross as an emblem. Some people who are using gold cross or diamond cross or even wood cross may treat it as a memento. But to us the cross means trials, victory and salvation. This we cannot change .
                      > >
                      > > The church venerates the cross so much that we even celebrate a Feast on the day the cross of our Lord was discovered , Sleeba Perunal. Also whenever the priest says Sleeba we cross ourselves. We identify ourselves with Him who shed his holy blood on the cross.
                      > >
                      > > Just because some of our priests / bishops are not behaving well nothing is wrong with the ORTHODOX FAITH. These are certain subtle matters to be taken as the Lord taught us. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you— but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice." ( Mathew 23: 1-3)
                      > >
                      > > Our church also has the good fortune of having a number of god fearing shepherds ; examples of our Parumala thirumeni, Vatteseril thirumeni, Pampady thirumeni, not to mention in our own times Osthathios thirumeni, etc.. They are some examples to follow . So many others are there also who following the Lord secretly. When He comes again surely He will reward them in the open.
                      > >
                      > > Mooran eeso! Kurisum nin..
                      > >
                      > > By thy Cross O Jesus Lord
                      > > By thy mothers praying word
                      > > take from us and from our path
                      > > Punishments and rods of wrath
                      > >
                      > > S/d
                      > > Jose
                      > >
                      >
                    • RinuSam
                      dear Jose Believing in resurrected Christ is not by wearing Cross or by bowing the cross!Cross represents Christ when we look at real meaning of cross! read
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 19, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        dear Jose
                        Believing in resurrected Christ is not by wearing Cross or by bowing the cross!Cross represents Christ when we look at real meaning of cross! read Philipians 2:6-8 in these verses we can see the glory of Christ and cross!it is not the external customs/or traditions that make a faithful as a real christian when we accept /follow the real word of
                        God in truth and Spirit!Osthatios thirumeni in pratical life or real life tried to follow Christ indeed!
                        Veneration of cross did not originate in early church after the resuurection of Christ or during early apostle's time!The meaning of signing cross was given by holy father of antioch Mar Severios after second centuary!

                        with regards
                        Rinu Sam


                        --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Sam sir,
                        > Veneration of the cross is the most important part of Orthodoxy. Even as we venerate the the Mother of God. These are certain unique events which the world has seen . Is there any other comparison to it.
                        >
                        > The law of God forbids any image worship but the cross is not an image of anything. It solely represents the Lord Jesus Christ. To further clarify . Our dear Osthathios thirumeni compared the cross we use to the crucifix Catholics wear. He said " We believe in the resurrected Christ".
                        >
                        >
                        > Kurish aaanu raksha
                        > ( The CROSS is Salvation)
                        >
                        > Kurishil aaanu raksha
                        > ( The Crucified One gives Salvation)
                        >
                        > Kurise nammi cheedunu
                        > ( We bow before the CROSS )
                        >
                        > Warm regards
                        > Jose
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "RinuSam" <rinsam2002@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Jose
                        > > Moraneesho Kurishum nin...../ By Thy Cross,Lord Jesus..........
                        > > Oh Jesus Christ the Lord by your cross and through the intercession prayer of your mother wipe off your anger and Punishments!
                        > > this hymn has nothing to do with our subject discussion in this Forum!
                        > > Here the Cross refers to the sufferings of our Lord Jesus on Golgotha and his sacrificial death on cross for us sinners!
                        > > What we actually discussing was about the VENERATION OF CROSS by orthodox church whereby our church praising/worshipping the cross as
                        > > life giving sourceto human beings( refer to Sleeba vandanavu Hymns and Prayer on Good Friday service) this is the issue here for discussion!
                        > > !
                        > > regards
                        > > Rinu Sam
                        > >
                        > > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Dear Sirs,
                        > > > I cannot see any reason why we must replace the cross with any other emblem. Does it matter if veneration of cross started after discovery of the cross in Constantine's era. The relics of St. George were used from AD 232 onwards itself . Is it wrong to venerate these holy items and saints.
                        > > >
                        > > > Our bishops and churches have always used the cross as an emblem. Some people who are using gold cross or diamond cross or even wood cross may treat it as a memento. But to us the cross means trials, victory and salvation. This we cannot change .
                        > > >
                        > > > The church venerates the cross so much that we even celebrate a Feast on the day the cross of our Lord was discovered , Sleeba Perunal. Also whenever the priest says Sleeba we cross ourselves. We identify ourselves with Him who shed his holy blood on the cross.
                        > > >
                        > > > Just because some of our priests / bishops are not behaving well nothing is wrong with the ORTHODOX FAITH. These are certain subtle matters to be taken as the Lord taught us. "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you— but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice." ( Mathew 23: 1-3)
                        > > >
                        > > > Our church also has the good fortune of having a number of god fearing shepherds ; examples of our Parumala thirumeni, Vatteseril thirumeni, Pampady thirumeni, not to mention in our own times Osthathios thirumeni, etc.. They are some examples to follow . So many others are there also who following the Lord secretly. When He comes again surely He will reward them in the open.
                        > > >
                        > > > Mooran eeso! Kurisum nin..
                        > > >
                        > > > By thy Cross O Jesus Lord
                        > > > By thy mothers praying word
                        > > > take from us and from our path
                        > > > Punishments and rods of wrath
                        > > >
                        > > > S/d
                        > > > Jose
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • jose_ua
                        Dear Sam sir, Your thoughts are in the Protestant mode while body is lingering in the orthodox church. (I dont intend to hurt you with this statement) The
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 20, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Sam sir,
                          Your thoughts are in the Protestant mode while body is lingering in the orthodox church. (I dont intend to hurt you with this statement)

                          The cross is the symbol of the bride of Christ and she adorns herself with it for many reasons. Purity, holiness, protection, worship etc.. The Cross represents Christ and worshiping the cross is considered as worshiping Christ.

                          In our own lives carrying the cross is not so easy but God who gave the cross knows our burden and He will not allow us to be tested beyond our endurance.

                          God expects the church to be holy because He is holy and we expect a blessing when the bishop / priest raises the Cross or whenever we see a cross. This is natural. Will you rob us of that one symbol of the invisible God which anyone believer or unbeliever can see!

                          Yes it is true that some of our clergy and laity are misbehaving . We hear so may instances but let us continue in the faith entrusted to us by our holy fathers so that when He comes we will be blameless before Him.

                          Orthodoxy in a nutshell is the life and words of the holy fathers who have association with God and they inspire us to form a relation with God not go contrary.

                          God has given you wisdom and years please use it for His glory.


                          Sleeba yenthi
                          (Carrying the CROSS)
                          Satan odel paan
                          ( To battle with Satan)
                          Sahedenmar chennu
                          (Martyrs came)
                          Khagathal mrithi yettorum
                          ( Some were killed by swords)
                          Thee yall venne rayorum
                          ( some burnt at stake)
                          Poril kattiya veeryathal
                          ( They were valiant in battle and not overcome)
                          Satan Koba kulanayii Nalkukka thal
                          ( Seeing this Satan was angry)
                          prarthanayaal punyam
                          ( May your prayers be our refuge)

                          Warm Regards
                          Jose
                        • RinuSam
                          Dear Jose It is not my thoughts of protestant mode/way that reflected here! That is the reality!Can you tell me or name those Martyrs who carried cross(wooden
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 20, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Jose
                            It is not my thoughts of protestant mode/way that reflected here! That is the reality!Can you tell me or name those Martyrs who carried cross(wooden cross/metalic cross) in order to fight with Satan/devil as described in that Hymn? do you know which year or centuary that Hymn was written or composed that hymn?Can you tell me in what respect Cross represent Christ?Cross represent Christ not in the form of "CROSS" that We see everyday in churches or public places!Purity and holiness are not represented by wearing wooden cross or metallic Cross!Your argument/statement that When a bishop bless the congregation with Cross that Church is going to be Holy is completely baselss as Those who bless the congregation with cross in their daily life used to crucify Christ,as well as the congregation do the same everyday in their lives! !Purity,holiness and protection are not coming with cross as crucification was a capital punishment for criminals by Roman government and LORD JESUS CHRIST(the holy lamb of God/ the lamb without any blemish or spot) never deserved any Capital punishment on cross By Romans!Cross in the real sense is denial of self! Christ Who is God became man and lowered himself for crucification in order to save the mankind!
                            When we sing the Hymn sleeba yenthi.....,the real meaning is that not by carrying cross but we imitate/follow christ in daily life which means denying the worldly desires or abstaining from every form of evil,or the entire world system and its glory has no power or influence over to Christians then we are going to be carrying cross!Can you tell me which martyr/apostle carried cross with them to fight against the corrupted world/Satan.Christ redeemed us from sin by shedding his blood on cross!1 Peter 1:19.. but with precious blood of Christ,like that of a "lamb" without blemish or spot"!The Martyrs who took weapon of cross and entered in the battlefield ti fight against Devil/Satan.. (weapon of Cross- is not the present day of cross used by churches or prelates/bishops)as you only consider the literal meaning of the Hymn!When Orthodox people use Cross as symbol of Christianity ,they never follow "cross" in reality!Adorning cross in the real sense is not bowing the cross but follow the cross in daily life!yes I am using the wisdom for glorification of God rather than crucifying Christ in my everyday life!

                            Rinu Sam

                            --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Sam sir,
                            > Your thoughts are in the Protestant mode while body is lingering in the orthodox church. (I dont intend to hurt you with this statement)
                            >
                            > The cross is the symbol of the bride of Christ and she adorns herself with it for many reasons. Purity, holiness, protection, worship etc.. The Cross represents Christ and worshiping the cross is considered as worshiping Christ.
                            >
                            > In our own lives carrying the cross is not so easy but God who gave the cross knows our burden and He will not allow us to be tested beyond our endurance.
                            >
                            > God expects the church to be holy because He is holy and we expect a blessing when the bishop / priest raises the Cross or whenever we see a cross. This is natural. Will you rob us of that one symbol of the invisible God which anyone believer or unbeliever can see!
                            >
                            > Yes it is true that some of our clergy and laity are misbehaving . We hear so may instances but let us continue in the faith entrusted to us by our holy fathers so that when He comes we will be blameless before Him.
                            >
                            > Orthodoxy in a nutshell is the life and words of the holy fathers who have association with God and they inspire us to form a relation with God not go contrary.
                            >
                            > God has given you wisdom and years please use it for His glory.
                            >
                            >
                            > Sleeba yenthi
                            > (Carrying the CROSS)
                            > Satan odel paan
                            > ( To battle with Satan)
                            > Sahedenmar chennu
                            > (Martyrs came)
                            > Khagathal mrithi yettorum
                            > ( Some were killed by swords)
                            > Thee yall venne rayorum
                            > ( some burnt at stake)
                            > Poril kattiya veeryathal
                            > ( They were valiant in battle and not overcome)
                            > Satan Koba kulanayii Nalkukka thal
                            > ( Seeing this Satan was angry)
                            > prarthanayaal punyam
                            > ( May your prayers be our refuge)
                            >
                            > Warm Regards
                            > Jose
                            >
                          • ES John
                            Dear believers, One can only take the horse to the stream, but can t make it drink. I wasted so much time for this topic to be imparted for those who are not
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 20, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear believers,
                              One can only take the horse to the stream, but can't make it drink. I wasted so much time for this topic to be imparted for those who are not quite conversant with the chaste and pure faith of the apostles, but is in vain. Better to be quiet than making so much rigmarole that bears no fruits. "The Spirit bloweth where it listeneth", Jn.3: 8.

                              E.S.John, Australia



                              ________________________________
                              From: RinuSam <rinsam2002@...>
                              To: MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, 20 July 2011 11:12 PM
                              Subject: [ MOSC ] Re: Cross


                               
                              Dear Jose
                              It is not my thoughts of protestant mode/way that reflected here! That is the reality!Can you tell me or name those Martyrs who carried cross(wooden cross/metalic cross) in order to fight with Satan/devil as described in that Hymn? do you know which year or centuary that Hymn was written or composed that hymn?Can you tell me in what respect Cross represent Christ?Cross represent Christ not in the form of "CROSS" that We see everyday in churches or public places!Purity and holiness are not represented by wearing wooden cross or metallic Cross!Your argument/statement that When a bishop bless the congregation with Cross that Church is going to be Holy is completely baselss as Those who bless the congregation with cross in their daily life used to crucify Christ,as well as the congregation do the same everyday in their lives! !Purity,holiness and protection are not coming with cross as crucification was a capital punishment for criminals by Roman government
                              and LORD JESUS CHRIST(the holy lamb of God/ the lamb without any blemish or spot) never deserved any Capital punishment on cross By Romans!Cross in the real sense is denial of self! Christ Who is God became man and lowered himself for crucification in order to save the mankind!
                              When we sing the Hymn sleeba yenthi.....,the real meaning is that not by carrying cross but we imitate/follow christ in daily life which means denying the worldly desires or abstaining from every form of evil,or the entire world system and its glory has no power or influence over to Christians then we are going to be carrying cross!Can you tell me which martyr/apostle carried cross with them to fight against the corrupted world/Satan.Christ redeemed us from sin by shedding his blood on cross!1 Peter 1:19.. but with precious blood of Christ,like that of a "lamb" without blemish or spot"!The Martyrs who took weapon of cross and entered in the battlefield ti fight against Devil/Satan.. (weapon of Cross- is not the present day of cross used by churches or prelates/bishops)as you only consider the literal meaning of the Hymn!When Orthodox people use Cross as symbol of Christianity ,they never follow "cross" in reality!Adorning cross in the real sense is
                              not bowing the cross but follow the cross in daily life!yes I am using the wisdom for glorification of God rather than crucifying Christ in my everyday life!

                              Rinu Sam

                              --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Sam sir,
                              > Your thoughts are in the Protestant mode while body is lingering in the orthodox church. (I dont intend to hurt you with this statement)
                              >
                              > The cross is the symbol of the bride of Christ and she adorns herself with it for many reasons. Purity, holiness, protection, worship etc.. The Cross represents Christ and worshiping the cross is considered as worshiping Christ.
                              >
                              > In our own lives carrying the cross is not so easy but God who gave the cross knows our burden and He will not allow us to be tested beyond our endurance.
                              >
                              > God expects the church to be holy because He is holy and we expect a blessing when the bishop / priest raises the Cross or whenever we see a cross. This is natural. Will you rob us of that one symbol of the invisible God which anyone believer or unbeliever can see!
                              >
                              > Yes it is true that some of our clergy and laity are misbehaving . We hear so may instances but let us continue in the faith entrusted to us by our holy fathers so that when He comes we will be blameless before Him.
                              >
                              > Orthodoxy in a nutshell is the life and words of the holy fathers who have association with God and they inspire us to form a relation with God not go contrary.
                              >
                              > God has given you wisdom and years please use it for His glory.
                              >
                              >
                              > Sleeba yenthi
                              > (Carrying the CROSS)
                              > Satan odel paan
                              > ( To battle with Satan)
                              > Sahedenmar chennu
                              > (Martyrs came)
                              > Khagathal mrithi yettorum
                              > ( Some were killed by swords)
                              > Thee yall venne rayorum
                              > ( some burnt at stake)
                              > Poril kattiya veeryathal
                              > ( They were valiant in battle and not overcome)
                              > Satan Koba kulanayii Nalkukka thal
                              > ( Seeing this Satan was angry)
                              > prarthanayaal punyam
                              > ( May your prayers be our refuge)
                              >
                              > Warm Regards
                              > Jose
                              >





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • RinuSam
                              Dear All The Chaste and pure of faith of the apostles are not the Cross or not reflected in cross!Their faih in crucifird Jesus and witnessing him,allover
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 20, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear All
                                The Chaste and pure of faith of the apostles are not the "Cross" or not reflected in cross!Their faih in crucifird Jesus and witnessing him,allover the world by denying themselves and following their sole master Jesus Christ.There were no evidence in history or scriptures that Early Apostles preached Jesus Christ by carrying Cross or adoring cross!bearing fruits by so called fundemtal/traditionalist right way glorifying people are church feuds more than centuaries in the name thrones position and power,in the name of cross pure bargaining/selling of education through capitation or through other loopholes manipulating education system,making the faithul/followers to look for alternate faith/fellowships etc as they(heirarchy) are not bothered to handle problems faced by ordinary believers and so on!
                                Apostles are ambassadors of Christ(2corinth5:20)The successors of those apostles the way live and behave at present are entirely different from the disciples/apostles of Jesus Christ!
                                The Wind blows where it wishes,and you hear the sound ,but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes.So it is with everyone who is Born of Spirit!(john 3:8)This refers the working of Holy spirit in the new birth as mysterious as the source and destination of the blowing wind!Likewise the SPIRIT moves where he wills and cannot be contained by human ideas or agendas!
                                the truth shall always triumph!
                                Regards
                                Rinu Sam

                                --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, ES John <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear believers,
                                > One can only take the horse to the stream, but can't make it drink. I wasted so much time for this topic to be imparted for those who are not quite conversant with the chaste and pure faith of the apostles, but is in vain. Better to be quiet than making so much rigmarole that bears no fruits. "The Spirit bloweth where it listeneth", Jn.3: 8.
                                >
                                > E.S.John, Australia
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > Fro:8m: RinuSam <rinsam2002@...>
                                > To: MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, 20 July 2011 11:12 PM
                                > Subject: [ MOSC ] Re: Cross
                                >
                                >
                                >  
                                > Dear Jose
                                > It is not my thoughts of protestant mode/way that reflected here! That is the reality!Can you tell me or name those Martyrs who carried cross(wooden cross/metalic cross) in order to fight with Satan/devil as described in that Hymn? do you know which year or centuary that Hymn was written or composed that hymn?Can you tell me in what respect Cross represent Christ?Cross represent Christ not in the form of "CROSS" that We see everyday in churches or public places!Purity and holiness are not represented by wearing wooden cross or metallic Cross!Your argument/statement that When a bishop bless the congregation with Cross that Church is going to be Holy is completely baselss as Those who bless the congregation with cross in their daily life used to crucify Christ,as well as the congregation do the same everyday in their lives! !Purity,holiness and protection are not coming with cross as crucification was a capital punishment for criminals by Roman government
                                > and LORD JESUS CHRIST(the holy lamb of God/ the lamb without any blemish or spot) never deserved any Capital punishment on cross By Romans!Cross in the real sense is denial of self! Christ Who is God became man and lowered himself for crucification in order to save the mankind!
                                > When we sing the Hymn sleeba yenthi.....,the real meaning is that not by carrying cross but we imitate/follow christ in daily life which means denying the worldly desires or abstaining from every form of evil,or the entire world system and its glory has no power or influence over to Christians then we are going to be carrying cross!Can you tell me which martyr/apostle carried cross with them to fight against the corrupted world/Satan.Christ redeemed us from sin by shedding his blood on cross!1 Peter 1:19.. but with precious blood of Christ,like that of a "lamb" without blemish or spot"!The Martyrs who took weapon of cross and entered in the battlefield ti fight against Devil/Satan.. (weapon of Cross- is not the present day of cross used by churches or prelates/bishops)as you only consider the literal meaning of the Hymn!When Orthodox people use Cross as symbol of Christianity ,they never follow "cross" in reality!Adorning cross in the real sense is
                                > not bowing the cross but follow the cross in daily life!yes I am using the wisdom for glorification of God rather than crucifying Christ in my everyday life!
                                >
                                > Rinu Sam
                                >
                                > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Dear Sam sir,
                                > > Your thoughts are in the Protestant mode while body is lingering in the orthodox church. (I dont intend to hurt you with this statement)
                                > >
                                > > The cross is the symbol of the bride of Christ and she adorns herself with it for many reasons. Purity, holiness, protection, worship etc.. The Cross represents Christ and worshiping the cross is considered as worshiping Christ.
                                > >
                                > > In our own lives carrying the cross is not so easy but God who gave the cross knows our burden and He will not allow us to be tested beyond our endurance.
                                > >
                                > > God expects the church to be holy because He is holy and we expect a blessing when the bishop / priest raises the Cross or whenever we see a cross. This is natural. Will you rob us of that one symbol of the invisible God which anyone believer or unbeliever can see!
                                > >
                                > > Yes it is true that some of our clergy and laity are misbehaving . We hear so may instances but let us continue in the faith entrusted to us by our holy fathers so that when He comes we will be blameless before Him.
                                > >
                                > > Orthodoxy in a nutshell is the life and words of the holy fathers who have association with God and they inspire us to form a relation with God not go contrary.
                                > >
                                > > God has given you wisdom and years please use it for His glory.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Sleeba yenthi
                                > > (Carrying the CROSS)
                                > > Satan odel paan
                                > > ( To battle with Satan)
                                > > Sahedenmar chennu
                                > > (Martyrs came)
                                > > Khagathal mrithi yettorum
                                > > ( Some were killed by swords)
                                > > Thee yall venne rayorum
                                > > ( some burnt at stake)
                                > > Poril kattiya veeryathal
                                > > ( They were valiant in battle and not overcome)
                                > > Satan Koba kulanayii Nalkukka thal
                                > > ( Seeing this Satan was angry)
                                > > prarthanayaal punyam
                                > > ( May your prayers be our refuge)
                                > >
                                > > Warm Regards
                                > > Jose
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • bindusirs
                                Dear Rinu, The views you expressed are not in line with the orthodox faith. The cross is the focal point of our church, worship and life. I hope you will see
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 21, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Rinu,
                                  The views you expressed are not in line with the orthodox faith. The cross is the focal point of our church, worship and life. I hope you will see reason.

                                  On behalf of all Moderators of MOSC

                                  Dr.Bindu Scaria IRS
                                  Group Moderator: MOSC
                                • jose_ua
                                  Dear Rinu Sam, The orthodox church doesn t see our Lord Jesus Christ and the cross separately. They are both the same. That s why I said the cross is symbol
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 21, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Rinu Sam,

                                    The orthodox church doesn't see our Lord Jesus Christ and the cross separately. They are both the same. That's why I said the cross is symbol of the church which belongs to Christ. This visible symbol anyone can see. It identifies us a sheep who belong to the good shepherd.

                                    Our cross represents the resurrected Jesus. We also cross ourselves before we step out and every time in prayer as we remember our Lords suffering and His great love for us. We also expect victory , long for his second coming and the end of our miseries when we sign the cross or bow before it.

                                    The cross is not an image of anything living or either in the sky or on earth or in the ground or underneath . . It represents misery , bitter suffering and failure but our Lord Jesus chose it and transformed it as a symbol of victory. The cross was actually introduced by the Persians to punish enemies of the state and hardened criminals. The Romans continued using it because it was highly effective.

                                    The Holy Church sings:

                                    Sleeba Vaaruga Sorgathil
                                    The Cross rules in heaven
                                    Sleeba Varuga Bhoomilum
                                    The cross rules on Earth
                                    Sleeba Pallikal Dayarakal , Ellam akate kota
                                    The cross is the refuge of our Churches and monasteries.

                                    Interceding in the name of St. George.

                                    s/d
                                    Jose
                                  • rinsamkenya
                                    Dear Moderators The focal point of Church (as Church is body of Christ)is to glorify Christ,worship Christ,as He is LIFE AND RESURRECTION! Thank you for
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 21, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Moderators
                                      The focal point of Church (as Church is body of Christ)is to glorify Christ,worship Christ,as He is LIFE AND RESURRECTION!
                                      Thank you for reasoning!
                                      Rinu Sam

                                      --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "bindusirs" <bindusirs@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Rinu,
                                      > The views you expressed are not in line with the orthodox faith. The cross is the focal point of our church, worship and life. I hope you will see reason.
                                      >
                                      > On behalf of all Moderators of MOSC
                                      >
                                      > Dr.Bindu Scaria IRS
                                      > Group Moderator: MOSC
                                      >
                                    • rinsamkenya
                                      Dear Jose I have a genuine doubt regarding St.George, How come St.George fought with Dragon without a cross on his hand? Those Martyrs of Sebesthi (40)during
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 21, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dear Jose
                                        I have a genuine doubt regarding St.George, How come St.George fought with Dragon without a cross on his hand?
                                        Those Martyrs of Sebesthi (40)during their Martyrdom have they carried cross on hand!
                                        cross Represents Christ when followers live by following/imitating Christ Christ
                                        "sleeba vazhuka swargathil"..... means:- Jesus Christ is in heaven,Jesus Christ reign in heaven,Jesus Christ is going to rule the earth,and Jesus is our shelter/refuge and All in All!
                                        Thank you
                                        - In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Rinu Sam,
                                        >
                                        > The orthodox church doesn't see our Lord Jesus Christ and the cross separately. They are both the same. That's why I said the cross is symbol of the church which belongs to Christ. This visible symbol anyone can see. It identifies us a sheep who belong to the good shepherd.
                                        >
                                        > Our cross represents the resurrected Jesus. We also cross ourselves before we step out and every time in prayer as we remember our Lords suffering and His great love for us. We also expect victory , long for his second coming and the end of our miseries when we sign the cross or bow before it.
                                        >
                                        > The cross is not an image of anything living or either in the sky or on earth or in the ground or underneath . . It represents misery , bitter suffering and failure but our Lord Jesus chose it and transformed it as a symbol of victory. The cross was actually introduced by the Persians to punish enemies of the state and hardened criminals. The Romans continued using it because it was highly effective.
                                        >
                                        > The Holy Church sings:
                                        >
                                        > Sleeba Vaaruga Sorgathil
                                        > The Cross rules in heaven
                                        > Sleeba Varuga Bhoomilum
                                        > The cross rules on Earth
                                        > Sleeba Pallikal Dayarakal , Ellam akate kota
                                        > The cross is the refuge of our Churches and monasteries.
                                        >
                                        > Interceding in the name of St. George.
                                        >
                                        > s/d
                                        > Jose
                                        >
                                      • ES John
                                        Dear All,  I have a genuine doubt regarding St.George, How come St.George fought with Dragon without a cross on his hand? Those Martyrs of Sebesthi
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 22, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear All, 
                                          "I have a genuine doubt regarding St.George, How come St.George fought with Dragon without a cross on his hand?
                                          Those Martyrs of Sebesthi (40)during their Martyrdom have they carried cross on hand!
                                          cross Represents Christ when followers live by following/imitating Christ Christ
                                          "sleeba vazhuka swargathil"..... means:- Jesus Christ is in
                                          heaven,Jesus Christ reign in heaven,Jesus Christ is going to rule the
                                          earth,and Jesus is our shelter/refuge and All in All!"



                                          It is better to keep quiet for this sort of belligerent attitude, though explained in details for weeks.

                                          E.S.John, Australia


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • rinsamkenya
                                          Dear John Sir I raised a question which is genuine to certain person in this forum and your response to this indicates/shows your indecorum as you have never
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 22, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear John Sir
                                            I raised a question which is genuine to certain person in this forum and your response to this indicates/shows your indecorum as you have never thought of true meaning of SPIRIT GIVING LIFE and the spiritual meaning of Hymns!
                                            Thanking and God bless you!
                                            Rinu Sam

                                            --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, ES John <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear All, 
                                            > "I have a genuine doubt regarding St.George, How come St.George fought with Dragon without a cross on his hand?
                                            > Those Martyrs of Sebesthi (40)during their Martyrdom have they carried cross on hand!
                                            > cross Represents Christ when followers live by following/imitating Christ Christ
                                            > "sleeba vazhuka swargathil"..... means:- Jesus Christ is in
                                            > heaven,Jesus Christ reign in heaven,Jesus Christ is going to rule the
                                            > earth,and Jesus is our shelter/refuge and All in All!"
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > It is better to keep quiet for this sort of belligerent attitude, though explained in details for weeks.
                                            >
                                            > E.S.John, Australia
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • jose_ua
                                            Dear Sam, The Cross and Jesus we frequently inter use in orthodox tradition like synonyms. Coming to your point: We are not saved by faith or adherence to
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 24, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Dear Sam,
                                              The Cross and Jesus we frequently inter use in orthodox tradition like
                                              synonyms.

                                              Coming to your point:
                                              We are not saved by faith or adherence to law . We are saved by the
                                              grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.It is true; faith is required to please
                                              God but God wants us to know that His son holds the key. Absence of
                                              LOVE is termed as vanity. Absence of love makes us bitter and fighting
                                              nature. Grace of God is His love to us who are undeserving. Cross is
                                              that love. The Cross unites us not divides.

                                              There is another defining hymn

                                              Aahvanam cheynuthavi kethuka nadha
                                              We call to you for help Lord
                                              kalahipikunnalakathey dushtan vanchanaya
                                              Turmoil by Deception by the wicked one creates
                                              Bhinnatha nrupa vidhikarthakalil unvalluvakki
                                              Divisions among rulers and discord arouse them against us
                                              dharmikareyum veezipaan vazhi nokeedunnu
                                              Stumbling to the ground even righteous men
                                              karthave nin karunayil eeneye
                                              Lord in your mercy
                                              Sanketham njangalkengullu
                                              You alone are our refuge
                                              dushtaney njanalil ninnodikuka nin sleebayal
                                              Drive away the Evil one from our midst by your CROSS

                                              Interceeding to our Lord Jesus in St. George name

                                              Jose



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • ES John
                                              Dear Jose, Let me join with the chorus and say that the sign of the cross make the devil flee away from us. Parumala thirumeni escaped from the deceit of the
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 25, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Dear Jose,
                                                Let me join with the chorus and say that the sign of the cross make the devil flee away from us. Parumala thirumeni escaped from the deceit of the devil many times, so also many other saints of all time.

                                                E.S.John, Australia


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • ES John
                                                Dear Ms. Rinu,  If you are not born and brought up in rigourous Orthodox discipline, it is hard for you to read my pulses with regard to the role of the cross
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 25, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Dear Ms. Rinu,
                                                   If you are not born and brought up in rigourous Orthodox discipline, it is hard for you to read my pulses with regard to the role of the cross in real Orthodoxy. I won't blame you because it is really hard. I pray for you to understand the christian endurance that it inculcates. I respect the views of others; I haven't shown any rude behaviour to you in any way. If misunderstood, I feel really sorry.With prayers and regards,

                                                  E.s.John, Australia


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • RinuSam
                                                  Dear John Sir In This World of Christianity/communities there are multiple orthodox factions/divisions who are claiming to be genuine or real!Only God knows
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 25, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Dear John Sir
                                                    In This World of Christianity/communities there are multiple orthodox factions/divisions who are claiming to be genuine or real!Only God knows which are genuine or really following the living spirit God. Christian endurance is something to deal with Christ or his nature and his life on earth!I am not worthy to be called as Christian! Sorry for any troubles caused to you or other writers of this forum

                                                    with kind regards
                                                    Rinu Sam

                                                    --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, ES John <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Dear Ms. Rinu,
                                                    >  If you are not born and brought up in rigourous Orthodox discipline, it is hard for you to read my pulses with regard to the role of the cross in real Orthodoxy. I won't blame you because it is really hard. I pray for you to understand the christian endurance that it inculcates. I respect the views of others; I haven't shown any rude behaviour to you in any way. If misunderstood, I feel really sorry.With prayers and regards,
                                                    >
                                                    > E.s.John, Australia
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
                                                  • RinuSam
                                                    Dear Jose I totally agree with you comments absence of love is termed as vanity and Absence of love make us bitter and fighting .but I did not neither fight
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jul 25, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Dear Jose
                                                      I totally agree with you comments"absence of love is termed as vanity and Absence of love make us bitter and fighting".but I did not neither fight with you or somebody here as I told earlier that reality of Christ's Cross or misinterpretation of cross and other verses in Bible are causing the aura of arguments/disagreements!
                                                      What is the cause of split in Orthodox church itself from A.D.451 having major divisions and factions! Here people do not agree on Spiritual meanings or realities of Bible teachings!
                                                      That is the cause of divisions and feuds in Orthodox Church!
                                                      Kindly go through Revelations12: 7-12 war in heaven:Satan is overcome by Christ's self sacrifice on Cross and that of martyr's(those who did not love their lives to death) War with Satan or devil is overcome by sacrificial death of Jesus the Lamb of world!
                                                      use of synonym and apostolic traditions are okey/ and good!
                                                      "test everything, hold fast what is Good"(1 Thessalonians 5:21
                                                      (Ellaam shodhana cheythu nallathu muruke pidippin)is the tradition of orthodox church!
                                                      There is a constant need of discernment and testing so as to avoid being mislead!
                                                      With regards
                                                      Rinu Sam

                                                      --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "jose_ua" <jose_ua@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Dear Sam,
                                                      > The Cross and Jesus we frequently inter use in orthodox tradition like
                                                      > synonyms.
                                                      >
                                                      > Coming to your point:
                                                      > We are not saved by faith or adherence to law . We are saved by the
                                                      > grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.It is true; faith is required to please
                                                      > God but God wants us to know that His son holds the key. Absence of
                                                      > LOVE is termed as vanity. Absence of love makes us bitter and fighting
                                                      > nature. Grace of God is His love to us who are undeserving. Cross is
                                                      > that love. The Cross unites us not divides.
                                                      >
                                                      > There is another defining hymn
                                                      >
                                                      > Aahvanam cheynuthavi kethuka nadha
                                                      > We call to you for help Lord
                                                      > kalahipikunnalakathey dushtan vanchanaya
                                                      > Turmoil by Deception by the wicked one creates
                                                      > Bhinnatha nrupa vidhikarthakalil unvalluvakki
                                                      > Divisions among rulers and discord arouse them against us
                                                      > dharmikareyum veezipaan vazhi nokeedunnu
                                                      > Stumbling to the ground even righteous men
                                                      > karthave nin karunayil eeneye
                                                      > Lord in your mercy
                                                      > Sanketham njangalkengullu
                                                      > You alone are our refuge
                                                      > dushtaney njanalil ninnodikuka nin sleebayal
                                                      > Drive away the Evil one from our midst by your CROSS
                                                      >
                                                      > Interceeding to our Lord Jesus in St. George name
                                                      >
                                                      > Jose
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.