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Re: Cross an idol or not?- Image and Likeness of God

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  • RinuSam
    God s species on this earth strictly. Thus sleeba, image of the Holy trinity, prostration is the adoration of the Holy trinity that goes in tune with the
    Message 1 of 10 , May 12, 2011
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      "God's species on this earth strictly. Thus sleeba, image of the Holy trinity,
      prostration is the adoration of the Holy trinity that goes in tune with the
      sacrifice of the 2nd person of the Triune God."

      Dear John Sir
      The meaning of Worshipping God In truth and Spirit mentioned in the Gospel of John(4:24) refers that Spirit of God(holy Ghost)will dwell in people Who Believes in Christ and Therefore God's people everywhere become temple of God where God dwells(1 corinth 3:16-17 and Ephesians 2:22)
      Holy trinity is not Image of Holy Sleeba or Cross!The revelation Of Holy Trinity is mentioned in Mathew 3:16-17,John1:32-34)The Ephiphany /theophany was revealed to the world during the Baptism of Christ!God Is Spirit in Form and Jesus The Son Of Man is the Begotten Son and Holy Spirit Which was hovered over the water at the first creation (gen 1:2) now in the form of Dove to anoint Messiah ,the son of God(Psamlms 2:7 "you are My son/today I have begotten you) Now the baptism of Jesus reveals the great mystery of the Trinity ,the Father Speaks,Holy Spirit Descends the Incarnate son is baptized!Later Holy Spirit Came on Disciples on Pentacost as divided Tongues as Fire!
      There were no Worship Of Cross In Secret By Early Believers as alleged by yourself!After Receiving Holy Spirit On Pentacost Day, even Apostle Peter made mistakes or errors ( Gal 2:11-16)!The Real meaning/sense of Cross in our is explained By H.G. Joseoh Mar Dianyasius which was recently published in ICON and also refer to the mediation song/Devotional Hymn by Dr.Geevarghese Ostathios regarding the sleeba published in SUVISESHA GANANGAL of St.Pauls Mission Center Mavelikkara!So Our Chucrh Fathers who were composing Hyms or Liturgy during 4th or 5th centuary can also make errors or mistakes as you refer to Manissa of St.Severios, the prayer during evening "Mahonnathante Maravil irikkunnavanaya Karthave" This prayer is to Jesus who is sitting on Highest on the right side of His father who pleads(Romans 8: 34)for us or makes inter cession for us!refer the Nicene Creed as well as the Angelic Hymn(malakhamarude Sthuthippu) or Prayer during Night/morning (Just as Exalted Angels and Arch angels of heaven singing Praises...)The Manissa of St.severios is having mistakes or error As they are not properly composed!Jesus appeared in Human form and after resurrection he is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven who intercedes for us now!The Manissa(petition of Mar Severios) says the Lord Jesus "sittest in The Secret place of High "Maranjirikkunnu/Mahonnathante Maravil Vasikkunnu>.."This itself is wrong composition! Also refer to MALANKARA SABHA magazine June 2007 regarding mistakes this Prayer/Petition of Mar Severios)
      Therefore I earnestly plead with you to go through again your comments in the light of Scriptures and writings of Holy Fathers of First and Second Centuary A D. regarding Holy Cross and Veneration in Church before Jumpimg into conclusions making irrelevant statements or comments!
      With Regards
      Rinu Sam


      --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice john <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Mr.Rinu Sam,
      >
      > I overlooked some of the arguments you raised and left unanswered in the reply.
      > "Please Note that Before A.D. 325 there were no cross veneration
      > or adoration practise were in our Church!"
      > A daring St.paul testified about the importance of the cross in his epistles, whereas other followers were scared of being killed by the persecutors who used to kill the innocent Christians brutally. Instead of a cross as a sign till King Constantine the believers used fish signs as their identity for recognizing one another. Secretly individuals might have used cross sign as their private worship. The vision of the cross in the horizon by th:16-17 ) e king or his soldiers was for inculcating the meaning and importance of the cross. There was only one church till the latter part of the 5th century.
      >
      > In order to venerate the cross they fixed 14th september as 'sleeba perunal'. Those spiritual luminaries who wrote these prayers are true in meaning and in depths and heights. The   armchair spirituality of the apocalyptic times pervert all what our Fathers had composed in Spirit. This commonsense spirituality that kill Orthodoxy is a poisonous weed which root out the true faith of the Fathers'. 
      > "Those who are supposed to worship the Lord in Truth and Spirit should
      > also reconsider/revise the wrongly composed Hyms and Prayers and make
      > our worship liturgy to be true in Spirit and sense!"
      >
      > Do you know the real meaning of worshipping in truth and Spirit, Jn.4? Those who want to worship the Father worships in Truth(Jesus) and Spirit (H.Spirit). This means worshipping the Holy Trinity is through our Holy Qurbana, not in the mountains as stated to the Samaritan woman. I have explained these portions in my Books. 
      >
      > "In Mathew 20:22 Jesus Calls his Crucification as CUP and his death As
      > BAPTISM!The Cross is a cup he(jesus)drank it willingly(Heb 12:2)His
      > Death is Baptism for he was Completely immersed in it it yet cleansed
      > the world(Romans 6:3-6) We should llearn the real meaning of
      > Crucification in the real sense"
      > Don't fiddle with the figuretive language that has an abstract meaning. This is the main reason for having 2,400 denominations and innumerable cult worship. 
      >
      > E.S.John, Australia
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • alice john
      Dear Mr.Rinu sam, Have an open mind, friend. One can take the horse to the stream, but can t make it drink. Queen Helen tested the cross of Christ by touching
      Message 2 of 10 , May 13, 2011
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        Dear Mr.Rinu sam,
        Have an open mind, friend. One can take the horse to the stream, but can't make it drink. Queen Helen tested the cross of Christ by touching a dead person to recognize between Christ's and the robbers' crosses. The dead came back to life all of a sudden by the vibration of Jesus' cross. Why didn't the dead body become alive in other cases? Because Jesus who is the Son of God is a Trinitarian God. Though our church Fathers haven't explained about the cross as the cross-shaped image of the Triune God explicitly, they knew in the Spirit that cross is the visible form of the Triune God. I explained it before that for the first 3 centuries the followers of Christ took it as a sign because of the cruel persecution by the Roman emporers, yet st.paul said it boldly that the cross of Christ is dear to him than anything else. Though he fought tooth and nail against circumcision, he was forced to give circumcision to his dear disciple Timothy due to the fear of
        death. Every creature is fear of death. Thus jesus revealed the importance of the cross to Constantine who came out victorious in the battle. Not only that jesus sacrificed His life on the cross, but because the cross is the symbol of the visible form of the Holy Trinity it has become the centre of our worship.


        If you don't want to change your inner self by reading many postings in our sites, nobody can change you. Don't challange the Church Fathers who wrote our prayers and hymns out of ecstatic celestial experiences. The modern theology that brought in so many humanistic cultural elements in all the denominations of our church has to fight against all such weeds. If cynisism conquers our mind, it is difficult to root it out from our thinking. Have an open mind and distil for the truth out of it by prayers and meditations. I can't help you now because I wasted so much of my health and energy for you. If you want to make baseless arguments by quoting some stray verses, you go along with your challenging attitude. may the Spirit of God give you understanding.

        E.S.John, Australia


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • RinuSam
        Dear John Sir I am not Challenging anybody here through this Forum! It is the lack of understanding the gospel as well as the lack of understanding Triune God
        Message 3 of 10 , May 13, 2011
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          Dear John Sir
          I am not Challenging anybody here through this Forum! It is the lack of understanding the gospel as well as the lack of understanding Triune God by some people make everything skeptical , unbelievable and unchangeble! You may go through edition of August 2008 "bethel Pathrika" the official Magazine of Diocese of Chengannor you will find article about "Feast Of Exalatation of Cross" ! Read it thoroghly!What you have alrady said through your comments Holy Fathers of Early Orthodox Church are infallible or they cannot mistakes while composing Hymns or LiturgY!It is not Cynism that conqers mind,it is the unorthodox practices that are causing troubles!I did not quote any stray verses as What I quoted are matching and relavanat to the context and true supporting verses of Bible /scripture taken from orthodox study bible which some people cannot digest it properly!In Hebrew 6 "therefore leaving discussion of the elementary principles of Christ.let us go on perfection not laying foundation of repentance from deadworks and of faith toward God,of doctrines of Baptism,of laying on hands ,of resuurection of Dead."Perfection is attained through Spiritual growth!
          Let The Almighty God guide us in knowing the Truth!
          Rinu Sam
          Nairobi


          --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice john <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Mr.Rinu sam,
          > Have an open mind, friend. One can take the horse to the stream, but can't make it drink. Queen Helen tested the cross of Christ by touching a dead person to recognize between Christ's and the robbers' crosses. The dead came back to life all of a sudden by the vibration of Jesus' cross. Why didn't the dead body become alive in other cases? Because Jesus who is the Son of God is a Trinitarian God. Though our church Fathers haven't explained about the cross as the cross-shaped image of the Triune God explicitly, they knew in the Spirit that cross is the visible form of the Triune God. I explained it before that for the first 3 centuries the followers of Christ took it as a sign because of the cruel persecution by the Roman emporers, yet st.paul said it boldly that the cross of Christ is dear to him than anything else. Though he fought tooth and nail against circumcision, he was forced to give circumcision to his dear disciple Timothy due to the fear of
          > death. Every creature is fear of death. Thus jesus revealed the importance of the cross to Constantine who came out victorious in the battle. Not only that jesus sacrificed His life on the cross, but because the cross is the symbol of the visible form of the Holy Trinity it has become the centre of our worship.
          >
          >
          > If you don't want to change your inner self by reading many postings in our sites, nobody can change you. Don't challange the Church Fathers who wrote our prayers and hymns out of ecstatic celestial experiences. The modern theology that brought in so many humanistic cultural elements in all the denominations of our church has to fight against all such weeds. If cynisism conquers our mind, it is difficult to root it out from our thinking. Have an open mind and distil for the truth out of it by prayers and meditations. I can't help you now because I wasted so much of my health and energy for you. If you want to make baseless arguments by quoting some stray verses, you go along with your challenging attitude. may the Spirit of God give you understanding.
          >
          > E.S.John, Australia
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • alice john
          dear Mr.Rinu Sam, You may go through edition of August 2008 bethel Pathrika the official Magazine of Diocese of Chengannor you will find article about
          Message 4 of 10 , May 13, 2011
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            dear Mr.Rinu Sam,
            "You may go through edition of August 2008 "bethel Pathrika" the
            official Magazine of Diocese of Chengannor you will find article about
            "Feast Of Exalatation of Cross" ! Read it thoroghly!What you have
            alrady said through your comments Holy Fathers of Early Orthodox Church
            are infallible or they cannot mistakes while composing Hymns or LiturgY!"
            Though I wanted not to linger on to your hypotheses, I would like to make a comment on the humanist theology of modernity that crept into our church and predating upon it vehemently. The fossil money culture can topple down any church or institution at any age. Don't put much faith on what comes in the church publications these days, because the sign of modernity is ignorance as Mammon has defeated us in everything, together with the secular laws and pagan pressures that have sedated us. For example, one senior bishop quoted very many verses and instances from the bible in defending same-sex relationship through the oficial mouth of the church's malnkara Sabha magazine. Then what to speak of 'Bethel pathrika. Another senior bishop wrote in Malankara sabha that there is no devil at all and he further explained that christ taught the existence of the devil because people of those days were ignorant of psychiatry. I am at the other side of 70 years; I write
            with bitter experiences that I suffered from our own clerical attitudes that crave for power and money. Read the books of the Fathers'; they also have erred many times, but is balanced by other spiritual stalwarts' teachings. Hope that you may learn by further experiences and having an open mind of worshipping the truth.


            E.S.John, Australia


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • RinuSam
            Dear John Sir Thank you for your compliments and prompt responses! Also if you get time read yakoobyan September 2009 regarding sleeba
            Message 5 of 10 , May 14, 2011
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              Dear John Sir
              Thank you for your compliments and prompt responses! Also if you get time read "yakoobyan' September 2009 regarding sleeba Perunnal!www.yakkoobyan.org"
              with regards
              Rinu Sam
              --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice john <john_aliceau@...> wrote:
              >
              > dear Mr.Rinu Sam,
              > "You may go through edition of August 2008 "bethel Pathrika" the
              > official Magazine of Diocese of Chengannor you will find article about
              > "Feast Of Exalatation of Cross" ! Read it thoroghly!What you have
              > alrady said through your comments Holy Fathers of Early Orthodox Church
              > are infallible or they cannot mistakes while composing Hymns or LiturgY!"
              > Though I wanted not to linger on to your hypotheses, I would like to make a comment on the humanist theology of modernity that crept into our church and predating upon it vehemently. The fossil money culture can topple down any church or institution at any age. Don't put much faith on what comes in the church publications these days, because the sign of modernity is ignorance as Mammon has defeated us in everything, together with the secular laws and pagan pressures that have sedated us. For example, one senior bishop quoted very many verses and instances from the bible in defending same-sex relationship through the oficial mouth of the church's malnkara Sabha magazine. Then what to speak of 'Bethel pathrika. Another senior bishop wrote in Malankara sabha that there is no devil at all and he further explained that christ taught the existence of the devil because people of those days were ignorant of psychiatry. I am at the other side of 70 years; I write
              > with bitter experiences that I suffered from our own clerical attitudes that crave for power and money. Read the books of the Fathers'; they also have erred many times, but is balanced by other spiritual stalwarts' teachings. Hope that you may learn by further experiences and having an open mind of worshipping the truth.
              >
              >
              > E.S.John, Australia
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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