BIBLE SOCIETY OF INDIA AND ORTHODOX CHURCH
- Dear Philip
Now its clear that you are a penctecost pastor.Iam replying to this
mail because of the presence of the word "ORTHODOX" in this group's
name.You should be indebted to the moderator for getting your mails
posted in the name of ecumenism.
This is how many our fellow believers left our church and joined
protestant groups because our Metropolitans couldnt stop them
because they themselves were praying with protestants in the name of
Ecumenism will be completed when the last Orthodox christian leaves
Malankar Sabha and join in one of the numerous protestant churches.
Then every body can sing Zionist songs and read trimmed Bible and
hear misinterpretation of Bible from pastors
- Dear Mr. Oommen,
>>"in the 21 st century, you have to teach Bible only and sing Zionsongs and stop singing the centuries old babilonian songs."
Are you suggesting that antiquity makes something useless and obsolete?
Quite a few times now you have condemned liturgical songs because
they're "centuries old." If Antiquity makes something less spiritual, as
you seem to suggest, then the Holy Scriptures, which are thousands of
years old, should have been done away with a long time ago. Age does not
take away from the grace and piety of Divinely inspired writings and
songs. And are you proposing that your "sion songs" can hope to match
up to the beautiful hymns composed by holy fathers like Mar Ephraim?
Even many pentecostals have commented that the Orthodox have "beautiful
Can you tell me where in the bible Jesus and his apostles sat around
babbling uncontrollably in "tongues" that no one can understand and
shaking in seizure-like fits?
Is that your idea of Christian worship?
>>"Why should we need another Orthodox Bible which would drive peopleaway from God."
The English KJV version, which was translated by protestants, has more
mistranslations than can be counted. Unless I am mistaken, the Malayalam
bible was translated from the KJV. One can only imagine how many errors
it has. The Orthodox translation takes the cultural context of the
period into account, thus producing the most accurate translation
possible. Plus, since we have the proper interpretation of scripture,
unlike you, our translation is bound to be more accurate.
I have a few questions for you.
1.) What happens to the soul after one passes away? Are the souls in the
presence of God? Are they able to pray to God?
2.) Is it not possible that Christ and his apostles taught and preached
many things that are not recorded in the bible? Is this not a fact that
is mentioned in the Bible itself?
3.) Is it not wrong (even scripturally forbidden by St.Peter) to
individually interpret scripture outside of the church?
4.) Are there no other literary works besides the Bible which have
authority in the church (i.e, Didache, The epistles of the fathers) ?
5.) Did Christ and his apostles instruct us to completely abandon Jewish
(liturgical) worship? Did not Christ frequently visit the Temple and the
Synagogue? Did not the Apostles and faithful continue to visit the
Temple every week even after the ascension of Christ? Did not the early
church conduct ordered, formal Eucharistic services?
6.) Should we completely neglect the Liturgy of the Angels mentioned in
the book of Revelation?
7.) Why do we see Martyrs exalted ( given crowns and robes) by God in
the book of Revelations? How were Moses and Elijah able to appear and
speak to Christ? Why did Christ go to Hades after his crucifixion?
8.) Why did God identify himself as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and
Jacob" numerous times in the Old Testament? If the relics of holy men
and women should not be treated with respect, what of Elisha's bones
resurrecting a dead man? (as Johnachen mentioned)
9.) Are you aware that to this day, the Jews say 'kaddish prayers' for
their departed ones, and hold annual memorial services?
I'm reproducing one of my earlier mails to you concerning liturgical
worship that didn't make the digest:
" It seems that you think the current liturgical worship of the Orthodox
church is something that has no biblical basis. Nothing could be
farther from the truth. I will attempt to explain what I have learned
regarding the origin of our worship. I welcome the esteemed members of
this forum to correct me if I'm wrong.
You have repeatedly asked whether Christ and his Apostles "used
censer" or "burned incense." You are looking at it from the wrong
perspective. The new testament clearly tells us that Christ and the
Apostles regularly took part in Jewish worship, whether it be in the
Synagogue or the Temple:
1) "And Jesus went into the temple of God..." (Matthew 21:12)
2)"And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say
the scribes that Christ is the son of David?" (Mark 12:35)
3)"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in
three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)
4)"...I sat daily with you teaching in the temple.." (Matthew 26:55)
5) "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues,
and preaching the gospel of the kingdom,
and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the
6) "Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in
the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and
in secret have I said nothing."s (John 18:20)
7) "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and
breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness
and singleness of heart.." (Acts 2:46)
The New Testament also bears witness that the Apostles worshipped
according to the timings and discipline of the temple and synagogues:
"Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of
prayer, being the ninth hour."
"Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them
entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of
purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one
of them."(Acts 21:26)
Christ never told the apostles to abandon Jewish customs or worship.
Indeed, he mentions that he came not to destroy the law but "to
fulfill." In the beginning, Christianity was still very much a part of
Judaism. So the Apostles regulary worshipped in the temple,
participating in the
Jewish liturgical worship. On Sundays, they all gathered in houses, to
celebrate the Eucharist together. So as one can see, they maintained a
perfect balance between Jewish Worship and the Eucharist, as Christ
had intended for them to do.
This balance was disrupted when Christians were banned from the temple
"For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to
kill me." (Acts 26:21)
It was no longer possible for Christians to worship with the Jews.
Since they could not abandon Jewish liturgical practices, certain
aspects of Jewish worship were incorporated into the Christian
Eucharist, thus shaping the liturgy that we know today. It is possible
that the liturgy that St.John witnessed in Chapter 5-8 of Revelations
is similar to the Early Christian Liturgy."
- Dear Mr. Philip Oommen,
1) Concerning, "Since 2001 revival started in the orthodox church
using 66 book bible published by BIS" Do you think that the King
James version of the Holy Bible is reliable? Do you think that the
Holy Bible contain only 66 books? In my previous mail, I informed
you with proof that the Holy Bible contains more than 66 books. Then
why are you repeating this nonsense.
2) Moreover, how can we say that the King James Version is the exact
translation? We can see several mistakes in the King James Version.
For example, St John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the
only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
declared him" (KJV). In the original Greek text, this verse can be
read as "Theon oudeis heoraken popote monogeneses theos ho on eis
ton kolpon tou patros ekeinos exeeyeesato". The term "monogeneses
theos" is translated in the KJV as "only begotten son". But the
correct translation is "only begotten God". Another example,
St.John 2:4, " . Woman, what have I to do with thee? ". This verse
is translated into Malayalam (KJV) as "Sthreeye enikkum ninakkum
thammil enthu?" Do you think that it is a correct translation? In
the Greek text, this portion is written as "Ti emoi kai soi, gunai".
We can translate it as "Woman, what to me and to you".
3) Another example, 1 Cor.11:2, "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye
remember me in all things, and keep the ORDINANCES, as I delivered
them to you". Here, the Greek word "paradoseis" is wrongly
translated as "ordinances", but the correct meaning of the Greek
word "paradosis" is "TRADITION". Similarly in 2 Thess. 2:15 and in 2
Thess.3:6, the term "paradosis" has been wrongly translated. If you
want more explanation, I am ready to give more clarifications.
4) About the number of books, I have explained it in my early
posting. The total number of books in the Holy Bible is not limited
as 66. Moreover, Bible Society of India is not the authority on the
number of the Biblical books, but the Church is the authority. Have
Jesus or Apostles ever appointed the Bible Society of India as the
authority. Never, but the Church, the body of Christ, was authorized
by Jesus Christ for everything.
5) The Old Testament writers mentioned several books, which are not
included in the Holy Bible, which is published by Bible Society. For
example, 1 Chronicle 29:30: "As for the events of King David's
reign, from beginning to end, they are written in the records of
Samuel the seer, the RECORDS OF NATHAN the prophet and the records
of GAD THE SEER, ". We read 2 Chronicles 9: 29, "As for the other
events of Solomon's reign, from beginning to end, are they not
written in the RECORDS OF NATHAN THE PROPHET, in the PROPHECY OF
AHIJAH THE SHILONITE and in the VISIONS OF IDDO THE SEER concerning
Jeroboam son of Nebat " Then, 2 Chronicles 20:34, "The other events
of Jehoshaphat's reign, from beginning to end, are written in the
ANNALS OF JEHU son of Hanani, which are recorded in the book of the
kings of Israel " These are not included in the Bible published by
6) The Evangelists quoted several passages from the Old Testament
books, which is not included in the Bible. For example, St. Matthew
2:23, " So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He
will be called a Nazarene." Can you show me this prophesy from any
Old Testament books published by Bible society? We read,
Jude14, "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these
men: "See, the Lord is coming " Can you show me the book of Enoch in
the Bible published by Bible Society? This quotation is from the so
called Apocryphal book of Enoch.
7) Then, Col. 4:16 says about an epistle to Laodicea written by St.
Paul. St. Paul insisted the Colossians to read this epistle at
Colossia and the epistle to Colossians at Laodicea. Again, in 1
Cor.5:9 mentions about an epistle previously written by St. Paul to
Corinthians. Where are these epistles? What happened to your King
James Version and to Bible Society of India?
8) We read in 1 John 5:7 as, "For there are three that bear witness
in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these
three are one." However, this verse is omitted in the Malayalam
Bible published by Bible Society of India.
9) St. Mark 16:9-16, is absent from important early manuscripts and
display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological
content that are unlike the rest of St. Mark. But it is included in
the Holy Bible published by BSI as the part of the original text. In
fact, some later editions add this portion to the manuscripts of
Gospel according to St. Mark. Therefore, the publishers except BSI
put this potion in bracket with a footnote. But BSI has never
mentioned this fact in their Bible. These examples are enough to
prove that the Holy Bible published by BSI is not completely
reliable, I think, and the number of books in the Holy Bible can not
be limited in 66.