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  • george_cthomas
    Dear Philip Now its clear that you are a penctecost pastor.Iam replying to this mail because of the presence of the word ORTHODOX in this group s name.You
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 31, 2006
      Dear Philip
      Now its clear that you are a penctecost pastor.Iam replying to this
      mail because of the presence of the word "ORTHODOX" in this group's
      name.You should be indebted to the moderator for getting your mails
      posted in the name of ecumenism.
      This is how many our fellow believers left our church and joined
      protestant groups because our Metropolitans couldnt stop them
      because they themselves were praying with protestants in the name of
      Ecumenism will be completed when the last Orthodox christian leaves
      Malankar Sabha and join in one of the numerous protestant churches.
      Then every body can sing Zionist songs and read trimmed Bible and
      hear misinterpretation of Bible from pastors

      George T.
    • Jason
      Dear Mr. Oommen, ... songs and stop singing the centuries old babilonian songs. Are you suggesting that antiquity makes something useless and obsolete? Quite
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 31, 2006
        Dear Mr. Oommen,

        >>"in the 21 st century, you have to teach Bible only and sing Zion
        songs and stop singing the centuries old babilonian songs."

        Are you suggesting that antiquity makes something useless and obsolete?
        Quite a few times now you have condemned liturgical songs because
        they're "centuries old." If Antiquity makes something less spiritual, as
        you seem to suggest, then the Holy Scriptures, which are thousands of
        years old, should have been done away with a long time ago. Age does not
        take away from the grace and piety of Divinely inspired writings and
        songs. And are you proposing that your "sion songs" can hope to match
        up to the beautiful hymns composed by holy fathers like Mar Ephraim?
        Even many pentecostals have commented that the Orthodox have "beautiful

        Can you tell me where in the bible Jesus and his apostles sat around
        babbling uncontrollably in "tongues" that no one can understand and
        shaking in seizure-like fits?
        Is that your idea of Christian worship?

        >>"Why should we need another Orthodox Bible which would drive people
        away from God."

        The English KJV version, which was translated by protestants, has more
        mistranslations than can be counted. Unless I am mistaken, the Malayalam
        bible was translated from the KJV. One can only imagine how many errors
        it has. The Orthodox translation takes the cultural context of the
        period into account, thus producing the most accurate translation
        possible. Plus, since we have the proper interpretation of scripture,
        unlike you, our translation is bound to be more accurate.
        I have a few questions for you.

        1.) What happens to the soul after one passes away? Are the souls in the
        presence of God? Are they able to pray to God?

        2.) Is it not possible that Christ and his apostles taught and preached
        many things that are not recorded in the bible? Is this not a fact that
        is mentioned in the Bible itself?

        3.) Is it not wrong (even scripturally forbidden by St.Peter) to
        individually interpret scripture outside of the church?

        4.) Are there no other literary works besides the Bible which have
        authority in the church (i.e, Didache, The epistles of the fathers) ?

        5.) Did Christ and his apostles instruct us to completely abandon Jewish
        (liturgical) worship? Did not Christ frequently visit the Temple and the
        Synagogue? Did not the Apostles and faithful continue to visit the
        Temple every week even after the ascension of Christ? Did not the early
        church conduct ordered, formal Eucharistic services?

        6.) Should we completely neglect the Liturgy of the Angels mentioned in
        the book of Revelation?

        7.) Why do we see Martyrs exalted ( given crowns and robes) by God in
        the book of Revelations? How were Moses and Elijah able to appear and
        speak to Christ? Why did Christ go to Hades after his crucifixion?

        8.) Why did God identify himself as "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and
        Jacob" numerous times in the Old Testament? If the relics of holy men
        and women should not be treated with respect, what of Elisha's bones
        resurrecting a dead man? (as Johnachen mentioned)

        9.) Are you aware that to this day, the Jews say 'kaddish prayers' for
        their departed ones, and hold annual memorial services?

        I'm reproducing one of my earlier mails to you concerning liturgical
        worship that didn't make the digest:

        " It seems that you think the current liturgical worship of the Orthodox
        church is something that has no biblical basis. Nothing could be
        farther from the truth. I will attempt to explain what I have learned
        regarding the origin of our worship. I welcome the esteemed members of
        this forum to correct me if I'm wrong.
        You have repeatedly asked whether Christ and his Apostles "used
        censer" or "burned incense." You are looking at it from the wrong
        perspective. The new testament clearly tells us that Christ and the
        Apostles regularly took part in Jewish worship, whether it be in the
        Synagogue or the Temple:

        1) "And Jesus went into the temple of God..." (Matthew 21:12)

        2)"And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say
        the scribes that Christ is the son of David?" (Mark 12:35)

        3)"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in
        three days I will raise it up." (John 2:19)

        4)"...I sat daily with you teaching in the temple.." (Matthew 26:55)

        5) "And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues,
        and preaching the gospel of the kingdom,

        and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the
        people."(Matthew 4:23)

        6) "Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in
        the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and
        in secret have I said nothing."s (John 18:20)

        7) "And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and
        breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness
        and singleness of heart.." (Acts 2:46)

        The New Testament also bears witness that the Apostles worshipped
        according to the timings and discipline of the temple and synagogues:

        "Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of
        prayer, being the ninth hour."
        (Acts 3:2)

        "Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them
        entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of
        purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one
        of them."(Acts 21:26)

        Christ never told the apostles to abandon Jewish customs or worship.
        Indeed, he mentions that he came not to destroy the law but "to
        fulfill." In the beginning, Christianity was still very much a part of
        Judaism. So the Apostles regulary worshipped in the temple,
        participating in the
        Jewish liturgical worship. On Sundays, they all gathered in houses, to
        celebrate the Eucharist together. So as one can see, they maintained a
        perfect balance between Jewish Worship and the Eucharist, as Christ
        had intended for them to do.

        This balance was disrupted when Christians were banned from the temple
        and synagogues:

        "For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to
        kill me." (Acts 26:21)

        It was no longer possible for Christians to worship with the Jews.
        Since they could not abandon Jewish liturgical practices, certain
        aspects of Jewish worship were incorporated into the Christian
        Eucharist, thus shaping the liturgy that we know today. It is possible
        that the liturgy that St.John witnessed in Chapter 5-8 of Revelations
        is similar to the Early Christian Liturgy."

        With prayers,
        Jason Kora
      • poovathumkalachen
        Dear Mr. Philip Oommen, 1) Concerning, Since 2001 revival started in the orthodox church using 66 book bible published by BIS Do you think that the King
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 7, 2006
          Dear Mr. Philip Oommen,
          1) Concerning, "Since 2001 revival started in the orthodox church
          using 66 book bible published by BIS" Do you think that the King
          James version of the Holy Bible is reliable? Do you think that the
          Holy Bible contain only 66 books? In my previous mail, I informed
          you with proof that the Holy Bible contains more than 66 books. Then
          why are you repeating this nonsense.

          2) Moreover, how can we say that the King James Version is the exact
          translation? We can see several mistakes in the King James Version.
          For example, St John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the
          only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath
          declared him" (KJV). In the original Greek text, this verse can be
          read as "Theon oudeis heoraken popote monogeneses theos ho on eis
          ton kolpon tou patros ekeinos exeeyeesato". The term "monogeneses
          theos" is translated in the KJV as "only begotten son". But the
          correct translation is "only begotten God". Another example,
          St.John 2:4, "…. Woman, what have I to do with thee? …". This verse
          is translated into Malayalam (KJV) as "Sthreeye enikkum ninakkum
          thammil enthu?" Do you think that it is a correct translation? In
          the Greek text, this portion is written as "Ti emoi kai soi, gunai".
          We can translate it as "Woman, what to me and to you".

          3) Another example, 1 Cor.11:2, "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye
          remember me in all things, and keep the ORDINANCES, as I delivered
          them to you". Here, the Greek word "paradoseis" is wrongly
          translated as "ordinances", but the correct meaning of the Greek
          word "paradosis" is "TRADITION". Similarly in 2 Thess. 2:15 and in 2
          Thess.3:6, the term "paradosis" has been wrongly translated. If you
          want more explanation, I am ready to give more clarifications.

          4) About the number of books, I have explained it in my early
          posting. The total number of books in the Holy Bible is not limited
          as 66. Moreover, Bible Society of India is not the authority on the
          number of the Biblical books, but the Church is the authority. Have
          Jesus or Apostles ever appointed the Bible Society of India as the
          authority. Never, but the Church, the body of Christ, was authorized
          by Jesus Christ for everything.

          5) The Old Testament writers mentioned several books, which are not
          included in the Holy Bible, which is published by Bible Society. For
          example, 1 Chronicle 29:30: "As for the events of King David's
          reign, from beginning to end, they are written in the records of
          Samuel the seer, the RECORDS OF NATHAN the prophet and the records
          of GAD THE SEER,…". We read 2 Chronicles 9: 29, "As for the other
          events of Solomon's reign, from beginning to end, are they not
          written in the RECORDS OF NATHAN THE PROPHET, in the PROPHECY OF
          AHIJAH THE SHILONITE and in the VISIONS OF IDDO THE SEER concerning
          Jeroboam son of Nebat…" Then, 2 Chronicles 20:34, "The other events
          of Jehoshaphat's reign, from beginning to end, are written in the
          ANNALS OF JEHU son of Hanani, which are recorded in the book of the
          kings of Israel…" These are not included in the Bible published by
          Bible Society.

          6) The Evangelists quoted several passages from the Old Testament
          books, which is not included in the Bible. For example, St. Matthew
          2:23, "…So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He
          will be called a Nazarene." Can you show me this prophesy from any
          Old Testament books published by Bible society? We read,
          Jude14, "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these
          men: "See, the Lord is coming…" Can you show me the book of Enoch in
          the Bible published by Bible Society? This quotation is from the so
          called Apocryphal book of Enoch.

          7) Then, Col. 4:16 says about an epistle to Laodicea written by St.
          Paul. St. Paul insisted the Colossians to read this epistle at
          Colossia and the epistle to Colossians at Laodicea. Again, in 1
          Cor.5:9 mentions about an epistle previously written by St. Paul to
          Corinthians. Where are these epistles? What happened to your King
          James Version and to Bible Society of India?

          8) We read in 1 John 5:7 as, "For there are three that bear witness
          in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these
          three are one." However, this verse is omitted in the Malayalam
          Bible published by Bible Society of India.

          9) St. Mark 16:9-16, is absent from important early manuscripts and
          display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological
          content that are unlike the rest of St. Mark. But it is included in
          the Holy Bible published by BSI as the part of the original text. In
          fact, some later editions add this portion to the manuscripts of
          Gospel according to St. Mark. Therefore, the publishers except BSI
          put this potion in bracket with a footnote. But BSI has never
          mentioned this fact in their Bible. These examples are enough to
          prove that the Holy Bible published by BSI is not completely
          reliable, I think, and the number of books in the Holy Bible can not
          be limited in 66.

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