- My faith looks up to Thee,
Thou Lamb of Calvary, Saviour Divine;
Now hear me while I pray,
Take all my guilt away,
O let me from this day
Be wholly Thine.
May Thy rich grace impart
Strength to my fainting heart,
My zeal inspire;
As Thou has died for me,
O may my love to Thee
Pure, warm, and changeless be,
A living fire.
While life's dark maze I tread,
And griefs around me spread,
Be Thou my guide;
Bid darkness turn to day,
Wipe sorrow's tears away,
Nor let me ever stray
From Thee aside.
When life's transient dream,
When dearth's cold, sullen stream
Shall o'er me roll,
Blest Saviour, then, in love,
Fear and distrust remove;
O bear me safe above,
A ransomed soul.
- Dear Mathew
Be reasonable brother. Why you wanted to confuse others.
There is no grey area. Let me put this story straight again.
In the undivided Malankara Church when HH Patriarch Abdullah II
arrived in Malankara for the second
time in end-1909 there were three bishops.
They were :
Malankara Metropolitan Vattasseril Mor Geevarghese
Dionysius VI, Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios, Kochuparambil Mor
A rift between the visiting patriarch and Vattasseril thirumeni soon
came into public view. The Patriarch soon consecrated two more
bishops in 1910 Mor Athanasius Paulose and Mor Severios
Gheevarghese without the consent of the Synod in Malankara.
These two and one Bishop from the Original undivided Malankara Synod
formed a new Synod.
That means the undivided orginal Malankara Synod has now Two
Metropolitans. Both of them unainamously decided to establish the
catholicate in Malankara. Where is the grey area in this ???
- Thanks Georgy,
I am convinced that Mr Julius was a political opponent of the
Portugese regime also. My earlier posting was based on my readings
about his life, mostly pertaining to religious activities. Thanks
again for revealing a totally new facet of this great personality to
Cant help but notice, but you seem to take offence to my usage of
terms. When you make a statement unsubstantiated by references or
facts, then it remains a 'hypothesis' I had absolutely no intention
of mocking you. I felt with all your literary (i mean writing )
skills you would understand what I mean
And you dont need to try for cheap sympathy by using terms
like "cunning, thieving Indian Orthodox Church". The IOC has enough
of my sympathy already. I totally respect you and also appreciate
your posting, but this line could have been avoided. Putting words in
my mouth or thoughts in my head arent exactly the right way to
counter me. Of course your take on this aspect may be different.
> To think that Mathew G M described this same thirumeni, who didn'tI dont see what is unsound in this statement.
> take shit from anybody, as a ``metropolitan directly under the
> Patriarch of Antioch''. To borrow your words,
> Abraham, ``interesting, though a little unsound''.
Infact if one goes through the reference you have given
please look at the translation of Alvares's certificate- line 15,
"and to exercise all consecrations and spiritual functions, etc.,
suitable to the rank of Metropolitan under the jurisdiction of Moran
the Patriarch, the high-priest, the head of our faith" .
This one line should convince anyone if he was a metropolitan
directly under the Patriarch.
Indeed your reply contained rhetoric in great measure, but the
flourish of it is really in the eyes of the reader. ;) Hearing this
for the first time in my life
There is absolutely no offence taken, on the contrary thank you for
Btw, The Brahmavar mission that was under Mor Julius is currenlty
part of IOC, but the Honavar Mission also under Mor Julius is
currently under JSC. Manoj had written mails about that mission and
its activities earlier.
--- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "georgy s
thomas" <samadhanasnehi@...> wrote:
> Dear Abraham,
> Warm welcome to the debate. I note your dissenting view regarding
> how it would have been unwise for a person to be both against the
> church and the state at the same time. I don't know how to convey
> the flavour of my understanding of Alvares thirumeni's personality
> to you. I will try. Let me just say that he was not a
> very `practical' person. He was someone who opposed injustice
> wherever he saw it, regardless of the consequences, and cared two
> hoots about how many new power centres he had offended. Therefore,
> he suffered, and his life remained a struggle till the very last.
> His struggles against both the Catholic Church, and the Portuguese
> have been well documented. You say that ``no one in their senses
> would oppose the church and the state''at the same time. Well,
> that's exactly what he did. To be ``sensible'' as we understand it,
> was not a priority for the fierce fighter that thirumeni was. Such
> courageous people who raise their voice against injustice wherever
> they see it cannot be measured by the common yardsticks used to
> assess ordinary ``sensible'' people. Let's get to the heart of the
> How do we know that Alvares thirumeni opposed the Roman Catholic
> Because he wrote critical pamphlets against the church with
> provocative titles like ``Universal Supremacy in the Church of
> Christ'. Because he broke away with nearly three thousand of his
> supporters and joined Malankara Sabha first as a ramban, and then
> following his elevation, as a metropolitan. Because the Catholic
> Church foisted false cases against him in faraway places like
> Tirunelveli, persecuted him in myriad ways, and excommunicated him.
> Because, finally on his death, the church buried him in
> a `themmadikuzhi'.
> We also know that he was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church
> because he shared the views of the Old Catholic rebels who opposed
> the First Vatican Council's acceptance of the doctrine of Papal
> Infallibility. His name is thus associated with the Independent
> Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa, and India. We further know that he
> sympathised with the rebellious Old Catholic Church because he co-
> consecrated an Old Catholic Frenchman from the United States by
> Joseph René Vilatte as a bishop in the Syriac Orthodox Church undersome
> the name Mor Thimotheos. More details of René Vilatte can be
> obtained from the George Kiraz article which Mathew cited:
> Let me just note that Vilatte's subsequent conduct has spawned a
> modern tradition of episcopi vagantes.
> Now for his nationalist sentiments and opposition to Portugal bit.
> You describe my contentions rather patronisingly
> as ``hypothesis'', ``interesting, though a little unsound'' and the
> like. Very well. My description of thirumeni as a staunch
> nationalist who opposed Portuguese rule in Goa was not something
> that I conjured up in my mind. Thirumeni was in fact one of the
> heroes of the Goan nationalist movement. Let me come to it with
> rhetorical flourish.great
> How do we know that thirumeni opposed the Portuguese and was a
> Because his grave at the St Inez Cemetry in Panaji was marked by a
> huge concrete cross, and bore the following inscription in
> Portuguese language, ``a great humanitarian missionary and one
> patriot''. Though his remains have been relocated to the St Mary'shard-
> Orthodox Church in Ribander, the original grave and the inscription
> are still located at the St Inez cemetery.
> Because thirumeni was also an accomplished journalist and wrote
> hitting articles against the Portuguese administration throughTimes
> publications like A Cruz (The Cross), A Verde (The Truth), The
> of Goa, and Progress de Goa.clearly
> Because one of the periodicals edited by thirumeni was entitled
> Brado Indiano (The Indian Cry). The title of the publication
> indicated his nationalist sentiments.member
> Because the Brado Indiano newspaper was primarily held responsible
> for instigating the 1895 Rane rebellion in Goa against the
> Portuguese rule and ordered closed by the Portuguese administrator
> Gomes da Costa.
> Because Gomes da Costa had thirumeni arrested for sedition.
> Because Gomes da Costa had thirumeni stripped publicly of his
> vestments for aiding and abetting the rebellion against Portuguese
> Because of all these reasons, Abraham, we can safely consider that
> Mor Julius Alvares thirumeni was a staunch nationalist. Don't
> believe me? Read this article from the respected Economic and
> Political Weekly:
> The Pe (meaning Padre) Alvares being referred to is none other than
> our thirumeni. Goans knew him by that name. Since Brado Indiano is
> clearly mentioned alongside Alvares' name, we can be safe. Or can
> we? What if the Alvares, who was the editor of Brado Indiano, is
> some other Alvares? Why should you trust me? I am after all a
> of the cunning, thieving Indian Orthodox Church. Well, here'sthe
> confirmation from a posting by a respected Goan historian
> Teotonio R de Souza. He is the head of the history department at
> Lusofna University in Lisbon, Portugal:of
> To think that Mathew G M described this same thirumeni, who didn't
> take shit from anybody, as a ``metropolitan directly under the
> Patriarch of Antioch''. To borrow your words,
> Abraham, ``interesting, though a little unsound''.
> Regarding your assertions about the synodal majority, counting all
> the Malayalee bishops, I repeat once again what I already said. In
> August 1911, a rival Malankara Association was held at the behest
> the visiting Patriarch, and Kochuparambil thirumeni was made theabout
> rival Malankara Metropolitan. There cannot be two Malankara
> Metropolitans in the same synod. The two factions were thus
> functioning as separate churches. Therefore, Mathew's schema of
> counting all the bishops who lived in India at that time is flawed.
> As I have said before, the decision to invite HH Patriarch Abdul
> Masih II to Malankara must have been taken by the synod comprising
> Vattasseril thirumeni and Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios.
> There are some other interesting tidbits that I would like to offer
> MOSC forum members about the Konkani-speaking followers of Alvares
> thirumeni who are now members of the Indian Orthodox Church. But
> it's getting late, and I am tired. I will return to it another time.
> I hope I haven't offended you in any way Abraham.
> Georgy S Thomas
> You may require registration (which is free) to refer EPW online.
> While you are at it, you may be interested in looking at an article
> of mine which was published in EPW sometime back. No, it's not
> our church conflict. It's economics. I think it interests you:
- Dear Ronnie,
Murimattathil thirumeni was very much part of the association meeting
which elected the two new bishops. It was only later when the idea of
establishing the catholicate and the post of the catholicose was
offered to him did Murimattathil thirumeni switch sides. He was a part
of the association convened by the Patriarch which elected the new
bishops. At that time Vattasseril thirumeni was alone.
- Dear Brother Ronnie,
I usually dont take sides in Church Politics. But if you say St.
Athanasious of Aluva (Aluva Valiya Thirumeni) who I consider as a
patron saint of mine was ordained thru the back door I cannot sit
I have clarified earlier, Aluva Valiya Thirumeni, Mar Athanasious and
Mar Severious were duly elected and ordianed as Metropolitans. Even
Murmattathil Thirumeni (who later became Catholicose)cooperated with
I know my few words is not going to change anyones heart on either
Instead of sinning futher, by arguing about futile Church politics. I
had taken a pledge earlier not to do that, however violated it. I
rest my case. You are free to assume what ever you like..
Forgive me a sinner,if you feel I was trying to confuse you. Also
please pray for me so that the Lord will have mercy on me.
Mathew G M
> Dear Mathew
> Be reasonable brother. Why you wanted to confuse others.
> There is no grey area. Let me put this story straight again.
> In the undivided Malankara Church when HH Patriarch Abdullah II
> arrived in Malankara for the second
> time in end-1909 there were three bishops.
> They were :
> Malankara Metropolitan Vattasseril Mor Geevarghese
> Dionysius VI, Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios, Kochuparambil Mor
> Koorilos Paulose.
> A rift between the visiting patriarch and Vattasseril thirumeni soon
> came into public view. The Patriarch soon consecrated two more
> bishops in 1910 Mor Athanasius Paulose and Mor Severios
> Gheevarghese without the consent of the Synod in Malankara.
> These two and one Bishop from the Original undivided Malankara
> formed a new Synod.
> That means the undivided orginal Malankara Synod has now Two
> Metropolitans. Both of them unainamously decided to establish the
> catholicate in Malankara. Where is the grey area in this ???
- Thank you Manoj.
My point is that it was not the united Synod of 5 Bishops which decided
to establish the Catholicate.
It was the original pre-split synod of three who decided.
Why would the Supreme court of India approve the installation if there
was a procedural non-compliance.
- Dear Mike, Sometime back when I pointed out that no SOC person will attend a JSC service except the clergy , you tried to fake it. But see what happened here. Didnt JSC ppl have some issue with SOC. Sometime back you mentioned you are one happy unit. Unfortunately it is not so. White is white , brown is brown, black is black. JSC peope are spineless who opt for a Patriarch. They should learn to live with honor and dignity.
Ahh no one can impose a priest anymore, cos Syrian intelligence is monitoring all and CIA wont allow that on US territory. We have to be silly when dealing with silly people ......
Yrs in His service
- Dear all
I think when we discusses the synod majority two things were to be
1.Whether H.G Alwaris mor Julios can be considered as a member of
Synod? What about Patriarchal delegate Whether he is a member of
2. Who all are the members who supported H.G Vattaseril thirumeni?
1.I think H.G Alwaris mor Julios can be considered as a member of
Synod as Greater india diocese is under malankara always (even today
in JSC-SOC arrangement it is like that),. But Patrarchal delegate is
not a part of Malankara . (It is not malayalee or non malayalee to
be considered ,It should be the Bishop's Juridsiction)
2. When H.G Vattaseril thirumeni was excommunicated (?) by H.H
patriarch. H.G Murimattathil thirumeni and H.G Alwaris mor Julios
together written a letter giving support to H.G Vattaseril thirumeni.
In this letter each points raised by H.H Patrarch were discussed and
it is pointed out that these are not valid points for
excommunication. Also It is pointed out that excommunication was not
discussed with them and as they were the only bishops
having 'Edavaka' they were the only members of the local Synod and
any thing not discussed in the synod is not having any validity (
reference - Malankarile katholikkamar by Mr. K.V. mammen)
Another Most important thing is that two bishops who were
consecrated on 1910 were given the consecration only when agreements
in favour of H.H Patriach were signed by them.By that time already
division was present inclusion of them to count majority in Synod is
correct or not is difficult to decide.(One of the Bishop was Mor
Severios for Knanaya and as per the present arrangement of JSC-SOC
arrangement , Knanaya Bishop is a member of SOC synod and not
Another thing to be looked into is that whether a bishop who is not
having 'Edavaka'(Diocese) is member of Synod or not.( I am not sure
of this point ) This point is important because H.G. Kochuparambil
thirumeni who supported H.H Patrarch was not having a diocese.
Karakkal St.George Orthodox Church
- mantra (MAN-truh) noun
1. A sound, word, or phrase that is repeated in prayer and is believed
to have mystical powers.
2. An often repeated word of phrase that is closely associated with
something; a slogan, byword, or a watchword.
[From Sanskrit mantra (thought, formula). Ultimately from Indo-European
root men- (to think) which is the source of mind, mnemonic, mosaic, music,
mentor, money, and mandarin.]
"These tips go beyond the 'test early and often' mantra and will improve
your IT organization's testing capabilities."
- Dear Mathew
Elevating a person as a Saint has nothing to do with ordination.
Recently the Catholic church elevated one " Upadeshi" as a saint.
So, plese keep these two issues seperate.
You are saying that the two Bishops Patriarch ordained were duly
elected by the Malankara Association. Which association you are
talking about. There was/is only one church and one association.
That was the association headed by the Malankara Metropolitan Mor
Once a person is elected as a President or Prime Minister there are
due processes to be completed before he is removed from that
position. Untill this is done he is the person in charge and no
Metropolitan could be ordained without his approval.
For example what is the status of all your Bishops ordained without
getting elected in the Malankara Association ?? Same status as of
Bishop Yohannan Thirumeni of believers church.
- Except for the late Baselios Paulose thirumeni, none of the JSC
bishops alive as on date are elected by the the Malankara
Association. They are all appointed by HH the Patriarch and continue
at his mercy as long as he wishes. Ofcourse JSC people will retort by
saying that the bishops were elected by their own people etc etc. All
that is nothing but propaganda. The last time JSC had a chance to
attend The Malankara Association meeting was when the court verdict
came out. At that time they boycotted and chose to form a church of
their own which is now known as the JSC church. This Slamoosa and all
such topics have no value either spiritual or can stand up in the
earthly courts as credible.
I have great respect for Baselios Paulose thirumeni as he was a
scholar and also because he elevated the present Patriarch to the
throne. Everyone knows how JSC treated him in oldage and how the
present Catholicose snatched office from him.
There is nothing wrong with the Orthodox church faith. But here and there some vested elements grabbed the offices and are behaving in such a un-christian manner. The same holds good for those who created Online Groups of the church. I reiterate these groups have nothing of spiritual value to contribute to your well-being. They have been created to promote rift and parrot official lies.
I request all MOSC members to stop this thread. It has no spiritual
purpose. It is a complete waste of energy and time.
Let the faithful decide.
Bindu Scaria, IRS
Group Moderator: MOSc Group
> Dear Mathew
> Elevating a person as a Saint has nothing to do with ordination.
> Recently the Catholic church elevated one " Upadeshi" as a saint.
> So, plese keep these two issues seperate.
> You are saying that the two Bishops Patriarch ordained were duly
> elected by the Malankara Association. Which association you are
> talking about. There was/is only one church and one association.
> That was the association headed by the Malankara Metropolitan Mor
> Vattesseril thirumeni.
> Once a person is elected as a President or Prime Minister there are
> due processes to be completed before he is removed from that
> position. Untill this is done he is the person in charge and no
> Metropolitan could be ordained without his approval.
> For example what is the status of all your Bishops ordained without
> getting elected in the Malankara Association ?? Same status as of
> Bishop Yohannan Thirumeni of believers church.