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Re: Malankara Orthodox Syrian Christian [ MOSC ] Group message of sympathy

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  • Biju Skaria
    Phillip , Since you are a trouble-maker you anticipate trouble. Bawa lived a peaceful life He will get peace. If not HE will give peace. Agaan all this can be
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 30, 2006
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      Phillip , Since you are a trouble-maker you anticipate trouble. Bawa
      lived a peaceful life He will get peace. If not HE will give peace.
      Agaan all this can be experienced only when someone close to you
      dies. At that time BIBLE READING will drive you mad. So chill man .
      First be a good human , then a good Christian.
      One more question " Kurishu varakyan ariyamo?" Adhinte arthum ariyamo?

      Yrs in His service
      Biju Skaria
    • Thomas Varghese
      Dear Georgy, I do have a doubt. Why H.E Alwaris mor julios ,the bishop of Mangalore is not included in the list you mentioned in your reply to Mr.Mathew. Mor
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 31, 2006
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        Dear Georgy,
        I do have a doubt.
        Why H.E Alwaris mor julios ,the bishop of Mangalore is not included
        in the list you mentioned in your reply to Mr.Mathew. Mor Julios and
        Murimattathitl thirumeni both supported Vattaseril thirumeni.

        Thanks
        Thomas Varghese
        St.George Orthodox Church Karakkal
      • Elaine Jose
        Dear Members, Keep trying is the rule that must be followed if you want to be successful at anything. Your success will always be connected with your
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 31, 2006
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          Dear Members,

          "Keep trying" is the rule that must be followed
          if you want to be successful at anything.

          Your success will always be connected with your actions.
          Just keep moving towards your goal.
          You'll make mistakes along the way but don't ever quit.
          You may even have to hang on after others have let go.

          Persistence means taking pains to overcome every obstacle,
          to do all that's necessary to reach your goal.

          In the end, the only people who fail are those that do not try.
          All great achievements takes time.
        • Shirley Chacko
          My faith looks up to Thee, Thou Lamb of Calvary, Saviour Divine; Now hear me while I pray, Take all my guilt away, O let me from this day Be wholly Thine. May
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 1, 2006
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            My faith looks up to Thee,
            Thou Lamb of Calvary, Saviour Divine;
            Now hear me while I pray,
            Take all my guilt away,
            O let me from this day
            Be wholly Thine.

            May Thy rich grace impart
            Strength to my fainting heart,
            My zeal inspire;
            As Thou has died for me,
            O may my love to Thee
            Pure, warm, and changeless be,
            A living fire.

            While life's dark maze I tread,
            And griefs around me spread,
            Be Thou my guide;
            Bid darkness turn to day,
            Wipe sorrow's tears away,
            Nor let me ever stray
            From Thee aside.

            When life's transient dream,
            When dearth's cold, sullen stream
            Shall o'er me roll,
            Blest Saviour, then, in love,
            Fear and distrust remove;
            O bear me safe above,
            A ransomed soul.
          • Omanakutty Eapen
            The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 1, 2006
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              The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill,
              You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment,
              are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as
              yourself."

              Romans 13:9
            • dhinuus
              Dear Thomas, I apologize for leaving out the name of Alwaris Mor Julious from the list of Syriac Orthodox Bishops in India in the pre-1912 period. I have great
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 2, 2006
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                Dear Thomas,

                I apologize for leaving out the name of Alwaris Mor Julious from the
                list of Syriac Orthodox Bishops in India in the pre-1912 period. I
                have great respect and admiration for Mor Julious for the hardships
                he had to suffer from the Portughese in Goa for accepting the true
                Orthodox faith.

                I will explain why I didnt list Mor Julious in my earlier post.

                In addition to the five Malankara bishops:

                1) Mor Geevarghese Divanasious (Wattesseril Thirumeni)
                2) Murimattathil Mor Ivanious (later Baseliose Paulose I)
                3) Mor Kurillos Paulose(Kochuparambil Thirumeni)
                4) Mor Athanasius Paulose (Aluva Valiya Thirumeni)
                5) Geevarghese Mor Sevarios (Edavazhikkal)

                there were two more Syriac Orthodox Bishops in India during the pre-
                1912 period. They were:

                6) Alwaris Mor Julious Metropolitan of Cyelone, Goa and India
                excluding Malabar
                http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol7No2/HV7N2Kiraz.html

                7) Sleeba Mor Osthathious of Kunnakulam- Simhasana Churches

                There was a difference between these two Bishops and the other five.
                The last two were Metropolitans directly under the Patriarch of
                Antioch and not under the Malankara Metropolitain. As you know
                Cyelone and Portughese Goa were not part of India at that time.

                So they are not in theory members of the Malankara Synod. Now even if
                we take the position they were Metropolitains of the same faith in
                the same geography and hence part of the Synod still the majority was
                not with Wattesseril Thirumeni. Sleeba Mar Ostathious was with Aluva
                Valiya Thirumeni. So if you consider a 7 member synod the split was
                3 to 4, with 4 not supporting the establishment of a Catholicate in
                1912.

                In Christ,
                Mathew G M
              • ronniedaniel1953
                Dear Mathew, Thank you for the info.. You shed more light in to the core reasoning for St. Vatasseril Thirumeni establishing the Catholicate in India.
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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                  Dear Mathew,

                  Thank you for the info..
                  You shed more light in to the core reasoning for St. Vatasseril
                  Thirumeni establishing the Catholicate in India.

                  Patriarchate was encouraging divisoins in the Malankara church even
                  before 1912 if what you said is correct. Otherwise how these two
                  Bishops, Mor Alwaris and Mor Osthathios of blessed memory of the same
                  geographical area were directly under the patriarchate.

                  What do you think was the intention of the Patriarchate for keeping
                  these two Bishops out of the Malankara hierarchy ???

                  My friend, I am for a coplete spiritual primacy for the Patriarch as
                  designed in the Nicea Synods. But, only spiritual, not temporal.

                  Spiritual primacy of all beleivers of Malankara origin wherever they
                  are must remain with the Holy Patriarch. Same way the temporal
                  primacy must remain with the Malankara Metropolitan.

                  There was an exception to this as you wrote and that may be the
                  reason why St. Vatasseril Thirumeni engaged in establishing the
                  Catholicate in India.

                  Rgds
                  Ronnie

                  --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "dhinuus"
                  <dhinuus@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Thomas,
                  >
                  > I apologize for leaving out the name of Alwaris Mor Julious from
                  the
                  > list of Syriac Orthodox Bishops in India in the pre-1912 period. I
                  > have great respect and admiration for Mor Julious for the hardships
                  > he had to suffer from the Portughese in Goa for accepting the true
                  > Orthodox faith.
                  >
                  > I will explain why I didnt list Mor Julious in my earlier post.
                  >
                  > In addition to the five Malankara bishops:
                  >
                  > 1) Mor Geevarghese Divanasious (Wattesseril Thirumeni)
                  > 2) Murimattathil Mor Ivanious (later Baseliose Paulose I)
                  > 3) Mor Kurillos Paulose(Kochuparambil Thirumeni)
                  > 4) Mor Athanasius Paulose (Aluva Valiya Thirumeni)
                  > 5) Geevarghese Mor Sevarios (Edavazhikkal)
                  >
                  > there were two more Syriac Orthodox Bishops in India during the pre-
                  > 1912 period. They were:
                  >
                  > 6) Alwaris Mor Julious Metropolitan of Cyelone, Goa and India
                  > excluding Malabar
                  > http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol7No2/HV7N2Kiraz.html
                  >
                  > 7) Sleeba Mor Osthathious of Kunnakulam- Simhasana Churches
                  >
                  > There was a difference between these two Bishops and the other
                  five.
                  > The last two were Metropolitans directly under the Patriarch of
                  > Antioch and not under the Malankara Metropolitain. As you know
                  > Cyelone and Portughese Goa were not part of India at that time.
                  >
                  > So they are not in theory members of the Malankara Synod. Now even
                  if
                  > we take the position they were Metropolitains of the same faith in
                  > the same geography and hence part of the Synod still the majority
                  was
                  > not with Wattesseril Thirumeni. Sleeba Mar Ostathious was with
                  Aluva
                  > Valiya Thirumeni. So if you consider a 7 member synod the split
                  was
                  > 3 to 4, with 4 not supporting the establishment of a Catholicate in
                  > 1912.
                  >
                  > In Christ,
                  > Mathew G M
                  >
                • georgy s thomas
                  Dear Thomas Varghese, Your posting, and Mathew s reply, has allowed me the freedom to revive this thread. I will continue only if we can keep debating the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 3, 2006
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                    Dear Thomas Varghese,

                    Your posting, and Mathew's reply, has allowed me the freedom to revive
                    this thread. I will continue only if we can keep debating the issue in
                    a dignified manner.
                    Yes Mr Varghese, you are right. It was an oversight on my part to have
                    left out Alvares thirumeni's name. I also missed Osthatheos Sleebo
                    thirumeni's name. Mathew has corrected this error.
                    Regarding Alvares thirumeni, whatever little I know makes me think
                    that he would have supported the line taken by Vattasserril thirumeni.
                    During the period when Vattasseril thirumeni was excommunicated and
                    Patriarchs Abdulla II and Abdul Masih II visited Malankara, Alvares
                    thirumeni was based in Brahmavar, near Udupi in present day Karnataka.
                    He moved back to Goa only after 1913.
                    To me, there are still many unknowns about the life of Alvares
                    thirumeni. But from whatever little I know, let me try to weave the
                    strands together. Julius Alvares can be considered as a staunch
                    nationalist who opposed Portuguese rule in Goa. Catholicism and
                    Portuguese rule were interwoven in colonial Goa. Hence, opposition to
                    Portuguese rule incorporated elements of anti-Catholicism as well. In
                    1870, the first Vatican council accepted the doctrine of Papal
                    Infallibility amid opposition from within the Roman Church itself.
                    Those who felt very strongly about it came out of the church and
                    fashioned themselves as the Old Catholic Church. Julius Alvares seems
                    to have shared similar views. Therefore, his name is often heard
                    associated with the Independent Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa, and
                    India. I do not whether he was the founder of this church. When he was
                    consecrated as a metropolitan of the Malankara Orthodox Church at the
                    Old Seminary by Pulikkottil Mar Dionysius II and Parumala thirumeni in
                    1889, his jurisdiction as sanctioned by the Patriarch coincided with
                    the jurisdictions of the above church. He was not a metropolitan
                    directly under the patriarch as understood by Mathew.
                    Mathew also advances the specious view that Goa was not a part of
                    India at that time. Goa was always a part of India. It's just that at
                    that point it was a Portuguese colony. What difference does it make.
                    The whole country was a British colony at that time! India is India,
                    colony or no colony.
                    In any case, he was appointed bishop of Ceylon, Goa and India,
                    excluding Malabar — i.e. all of India except Malabar (Malankara). Even
                    if we leave out Ceylon and Goa, still plenty of territory to give him
                    a locus. Besides, Alvares thirumeni was at that time based in
                    Brahmavar, as detailed by Prof Joseph Alexander in this interesting
                    article:
                    http://www.lightoflife.com/LOL_Arch_Vol4_Issue08.htm#FEATUREA

                    From what I know so far, Alvares thirumeni's opposition to the
                    Portuguese, and by extension to the Catholic Church, led him to the
                    Malankara Orthodox Church in his search for the original Indian
                    Church. Matters being so, it is difficult to take the view that this
                    nationalist would have supported a foreign prelate coming to India,
                    and excommunicating the head of the church here without following any
                    due process, by taking the roles of accuser, jury and judge at the
                    same time.

                    The fact remains that in August 1911, a rival Malankara Association
                    was held at the behest of the visiting Patriarch, and Kochuparambil
                    thirumeni was made the rival Malankara Metropolitan. There cannot be
                    two Malankara Metropolitans in the same synod. The two factions were
                    thus functioning as separate churches. Therefore, Mathew's schema of
                    counting all the bishops who lived in India at that time is flawed. As
                    I have said before, the decision to invite HH Patriarch Abdul Masih II
                    to Malankara must have been taken sometime in late 1911 or early 1912.
                    The synod comprising Vattasseril thirumeni and Murimattam Mor Paulose
                    Ivanios must have taken the decision. Alvares thirumeni was not in
                    station. As a staunch nationalist, he must have supported the decision
                    taken by Vattasseril thirumeni. That is why his followers still remain
                    in the Malankara Orthodox Church. Prof Alexander's article states that
                    we have five churches, a degree college and a junior college, two UP
                    schools, and an English medium school in Brahmavar.
                    I like Mathew's approach since he's interested in getting to the root
                    of the issue at hand. From what I've seen, Thomas Varghese seems to be
                    someone with interest in our church history. I am resquesting both of
                    you to please contribute more insightful postings on our church
                    history.
                    Faithfully
                    Georgy S Thonas
                    Bangalore
                  • abraham10281
                    Dear Georgy, Your hypothesis on Mor Julius Alwaris probable stand though interesting is a little unsound in my opinion. It is true that the Portugese had a
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                      Dear Georgy,

                      Your hypothesis on Mor Julius Alwaris probable stand though
                      interesting is a little unsound in my opinion.

                      It is true that the Portugese had a Papal mandate to 'harvest souls'
                      in their colonies. they have also adopted some tough measures to
                      bring their colonies under the Pope.

                      We cannot conclude that Mor Julius was primarily against the
                      Portugese and hence by extension against the Catholics. If he were
                      against the Portugese rulers of Goa, then it is an unwise decision to
                      fight them or oppose them by going against the catholic church too.
                      One big opponent is bad enough. No one in their senses would oppose
                      the church and the state. It is definitely more likely that he was
                      against the goan brand of catholicism and that is what drew him to
                      the Malankara Church.

                      Goa is geographically a part of the Indian subcontinent, but until 64
                      (if I am not mistaken) it was a different polictical entity. Now if
                      you ask what difference it makes, there certainly is a great
                      difference, On one hand you had colonial masters (the brits) who were
                      mostly protestant, but not really persecuting the catholics or other
                      churches and in Goa you had a colonial master (the portugese) who
                      subscribed to a particularly fanatic brand of catholicism in their
                      early days and was actually persecuting other denominations. You may
                      also recall that the Portugese actually had an inquisition in Goa
                      which supposedly surpassed the ones in Lisbon and Spain in terms of
                      cruelty and horrors. We all know the fate of Patriarch Ahatalla

                      If he were a political opponent of the Portugese rulers, I am sure
                      they would not have let him back into Goa or would have subjected him
                      to some horrible punishments. But whatever little we know of the last
                      portion of his life history suggests that he was in all likelyhood
                      treated as a recalcitrant heretic.

                      I cant say what stand Alwaris thirumeni would have taken, but I am
                      inclined to think that the Malankara church would not really pay any
                      heed to his stand if at all he took one. We are after all still a
                      very narrow minded community when it comes to integrating members of
                      the church from other 'ethnicities'. The fate of the 'marga vaasikal'
                      in IOC is a good example.

                      In short I am not convinced by this line of argument. It is like
                      saying our ancestors at Mattancherry (Coonen Cruz) were opposed to
                      the Portugese primarily and by extension to the Catholics.

                      All said and done even if as you say the nationalist Mor Julius was
                      supportive of the decision to invite (ex)Patriarch Abdul Messiah. It
                      still is not justified when three out of the 5 'Malayalee'
                      metropolitans (who for all practical purposes consituted the synod)
                      were against the decision to invite (ex)Patriarch Abdul Messiah. ,
                      Atleast there need be no dispute on what the likely stand of the
                      other metropolitan patriarchal delegate Mor Osthathios would have
                      been. :)

                      The Christian approach would have been to form a consensus amongst
                      ones own brothers. Unfortunately that was not to be and today we are
                      all reaping the fruits of those actions.

                      Thanks,
                      Abraham Kurian
                    • Omanakutty Eapen
                      Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. Revelation 3:20
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                        Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and
                        opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with
                        me. Revelation 3:20
                      • ronniedaniel1953
                        Abraham YOu did not touch one part of Georgees message: ie. HH the Patriarch had consecrated a new Malankara Metropolitan in the early part of 1911. That
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                          Abraham

                          YOu did not touch one part of Georgees message:
                          ie. HH the Patriarch had consecrated a new Malankara Metropolitan in
                          the early part of 1911. That means the 5 Malayalee Bishops which Mathew
                          said were already divided in to two sections or two synods. One under
                          Malankara Metropolitan St. Vattasseril Thirumeni and the other under
                          the newly consecrated Malankara Metropolitan Mor Philexinos.

                          rgds
                          ronnie
                        • georgy s thomas
                          Dear Abraham, Warm welcome to the debate. I note your dissenting view regarding how it would have been unwise for a person to be both against the church and
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                            Dear Abraham,
                            Warm welcome to the debate. I note your dissenting view regarding
                            how it would have been unwise for a person to be both against the
                            church and the state at the same time. I don't know how to convey
                            the flavour of my understanding of Alvares thirumeni's personality
                            to you. I will try. Let me just say that he was not a
                            very `practical' person. He was someone who opposed injustice
                            wherever he saw it, regardless of the consequences, and cared two
                            hoots about how many new power centres he had offended. Therefore,
                            he suffered, and his life remained a struggle till the very last.
                            His struggles against both the Catholic Church, and the Portuguese
                            have been well documented. You say that ``no one in their senses
                            would oppose the church and the state''at the same time. Well,
                            that's exactly what he did. To be ``sensible'' as we understand it,
                            was not a priority for the fierce fighter that thirumeni was. Such
                            courageous people who raise their voice against injustice wherever
                            they see it cannot be measured by the common yardsticks used to
                            assess ordinary ``sensible'' people. Let's get to the heart of the
                            matter.

                            How do we know that Alvares thirumeni opposed the Roman Catholic
                            Church?

                            Because he wrote critical pamphlets against the church with
                            provocative titles like ``Universal Supremacy in the Church of
                            Christ'. Because he broke away with nearly three thousand of his
                            supporters and joined Malankara Sabha first as a ramban, and then
                            following his elevation, as a metropolitan. Because the Catholic
                            Church foisted false cases against him in faraway places like
                            Tirunelveli, persecuted him in myriad ways, and excommunicated him.
                            Because, finally on his death, the church buried him in
                            a `themmadikuzhi'.
                            We also know that he was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church
                            because he shared the views of the Old Catholic rebels who opposed
                            the First Vatican Council's acceptance of the doctrine of Papal
                            Infallibility. His name is thus associated with the Independent
                            Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa, and India. We further know that he
                            sympathised with the rebellious Old Catholic Church because he co-
                            consecrated an Old Catholic Frenchman from the United States by name
                            Joseph René Vilatte as a bishop in the Syriac Orthodox Church under
                            the name Mor Thimotheos. More details of René Vilatte can be
                            obtained from the George Kiraz article which Mathew cited:
                            http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol7No2/HV7N2Kiraz.html
                            Let me just note that Vilatte's subsequent conduct has spawned a
                            modern tradition of episcopi vagantes.

                            Now for his nationalist sentiments and opposition to Portugal bit.
                            You describe my contentions rather patronisingly
                            as ``hypothesis'', ``interesting, though a little unsound'' and the
                            like. Very well. My description of thirumeni as a staunch
                            nationalist who opposed Portuguese rule in Goa was not something
                            that I conjured up in my mind. Thirumeni was in fact one of the
                            heroes of the Goan nationalist movement. Let me come to it with some
                            rhetorical flourish.

                            How do we know that thirumeni opposed the Portuguese and was a
                            nationalist?
                            Because his grave at the St Inez Cemetry in Panaji was marked by a
                            huge concrete cross, and bore the following inscription in
                            Portuguese language, ``a great humanitarian missionary and one great
                            patriot''. Though his remains have been relocated to the St Mary's
                            Orthodox Church in Ribander, the original grave and the inscription
                            are still located at the St Inez cemetery.
                            Because thirumeni was also an accomplished journalist and wrote hard-
                            hitting articles against the Portuguese administration through
                            publications like A Cruz (The Cross), A Verde (The Truth), The Times
                            of Goa, and Progress de Goa.
                            Because one of the periodicals edited by thirumeni was entitled
                            Brado Indiano (The Indian Cry). The title of the publication clearly
                            indicated his nationalist sentiments.
                            Because the Brado Indiano newspaper was primarily held responsible
                            for instigating the 1895 Rane rebellion in Goa against the
                            Portuguese rule and ordered closed by the Portuguese administrator
                            Gomes da Costa.
                            Because Gomes da Costa had thirumeni arrested for sedition.
                            Because Gomes da Costa had thirumeni stripped publicly of his
                            vestments for aiding and abetting the rebellion against Portuguese
                            authority.
                            Because of all these reasons, Abraham, we can safely consider that
                            Mor Julius Alvares thirumeni was a staunch nationalist. Don't
                            believe me? Read this article from the respected Economic and
                            Political Weekly:
                            http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?
                            root=2005&leaf=02&filename=8339&filetype=html
                            The Pe (meaning Padre) Alvares being referred to is none other than
                            our thirumeni. Goans knew him by that name. Since Brado Indiano is
                            clearly mentioned alongside Alvares' name, we can be safe. Or can
                            we? What if the Alvares, who was the editor of Brado Indiano, is
                            some other Alvares? Why should you trust me? I am after all a member
                            of the cunning, thieving Indian Orthodox Church. Well, here's
                            confirmation from a posting by a respected Goan historian
                            Teotonio R de Souza. He is the head of the history department at the
                            Lusofna University in Lisbon, Portugal:
                            http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/2004-April/011781.html

                            To think that Mathew G M described this same thirumeni, who didn't
                            take shit from anybody, as a ``metropolitan directly under the
                            Patriarch of Antioch''. To borrow your words,
                            Abraham, ``interesting, though a little unsound''.

                            Regarding your assertions about the synodal majority, counting all
                            the Malayalee bishops, I repeat once again what I already said. In
                            August 1911, a rival Malankara Association was held at the behest of
                            the visiting Patriarch, and Kochuparambil thirumeni was made the
                            rival Malankara Metropolitan. There cannot be two Malankara
                            Metropolitans in the same synod. The two factions were thus
                            functioning as separate churches. Therefore, Mathew's schema of
                            counting all the bishops who lived in India at that time is flawed.
                            As I have said before, the decision to invite HH Patriarch Abdul
                            Masih II to Malankara must have been taken by the synod comprising
                            Vattasseril thirumeni and Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios.

                            There are some other interesting tidbits that I would like to offer
                            MOSC forum members about the Konkani-speaking followers of Alvares
                            thirumeni who are now members of the Indian Orthodox Church. But
                            it's getting late, and I am tired. I will return to it another time.
                            I hope I haven't offended you in any way Abraham.

                            Faithfully
                            Georgy S Thomas
                            Bangalore


                            PS

                            You may require registration (which is free) to refer EPW online.
                            While you are at it, you may be interested in looking at an article
                            of mine which was published in EPW sometime back. No, it's not about
                            our church conflict. It's economics. I think it interests you:
                            http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?
                            root=2004&leaf=10&filename=7803&filetype=html
                          • dhinuus
                            Dear Ronnie and other Christian Brothers, I think I have now succeeded in convincing everyone what I originally set out to convince. By the way the Malankara
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 4, 2006
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                              Dear Ronnie and other Christian Brothers,

                              I think I have now succeeded in convincing everyone what I originally
                              set out to convince.

                              By the way the Malankara Metropolitan that was elected in the 1911
                              Aluva Malankara Association was not Mor Phelexinos but Mor Kurilose
                              (also known as Kochuparambil Thirumeni)

                              My brethren in the IOC say that in 1911 the Church split into two, the
                              majority of the Bishop's in the synod continuing to the stay with the
                              Patriarch and the a minority of just two Bishops deciding to consecrate
                              a Catholicose. From all the discussions so far, everyone is in
                              agreement. My IOC brothers also feel this is perfectly ok and my SOC
                              brothers feel Synodal majority was violated.

                              The same thing happened again in 1970. This time it was the reverse.
                              The majority of the undivided synod stood with the Catholicose and a
                              minority of just two Bishops Mor Phelexinos (Later H.B Baselious
                              Paulose II Catholicose) and Mor Clemis split from the majority and
                              elected to enthrone a new Catholicose. This is also a fact and there is
                              no argument about this. In this case my SOC brothers feel this is ok
                              and my IOC brothers feel the Synodal majority was violated.

                              This was the main point in my first posting; both factions has violated
                              Synodal majority decisions when it has favored them. Inspite of all
                              this politics, don't get me wrong, I still respect these fathers of the
                              church, from both factions, who were all better Christians than I am,
                              giving their entire life for the church and its well being. All of them
                              stood for truth, the truth that they believed. Ultimately there is only
                              one truth and thats Christ.

                              So as long as all of us can be respectful of each other, understand
                              that the Malankara Church dispute is not fully black and white, its all
                              gray, then its all fine.

                              In Christ,
                              Mathew G M
                            • ronniedaniel1953
                              Dear Mathew Be reasonable brother. Why you wanted to confuse others. There is no grey area. Let me put this story straight again. In the undivided Malankara
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 5, 2006
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                                Dear Mathew

                                Be reasonable brother. Why you wanted to confuse others.
                                There is no grey area. Let me put this story straight again.

                                In the undivided Malankara Church when HH Patriarch Abdullah II
                                arrived in Malankara for the second
                                time in end-1909 there were three bishops.
                                They were :

                                Malankara Metropolitan Vattasseril Mor Geevarghese
                                Dionysius VI, Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios, Kochuparambil Mor
                                Koorilos Paulose.

                                A rift between the visiting patriarch and Vattasseril thirumeni soon
                                came into public view. The Patriarch soon consecrated two more
                                bishops in 1910 Mor Athanasius Paulose and Mor Severios
                                Gheevarghese without the consent of the Synod in Malankara.

                                These two and one Bishop from the Original undivided Malankara Synod
                                formed a new Synod.

                                That means the undivided orginal Malankara Synod has now Two
                                Metropolitans. Both of them unainamously decided to establish the
                                catholicate in Malankara. Where is the grey area in this ???

                                rgds
                                ronnie
                              • abraham10281
                                Thanks Georgy, I am convinced that Mr Julius was a political opponent of the Portugese regime also. My earlier posting was based on my readings about his life,
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 5, 2006
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                                  Thanks Georgy,

                                  I am convinced that Mr Julius was a political opponent of the
                                  Portugese regime also. My earlier posting was based on my readings
                                  about his life, mostly pertaining to religious activities. Thanks
                                  again for revealing a totally new facet of this great personality to
                                  me.

                                  Cant help but notice, but you seem to take offence to my usage of
                                  terms. When you make a statement unsubstantiated by references or
                                  facts, then it remains a 'hypothesis' I had absolutely no intention
                                  of mocking you. I felt with all your literary (i mean writing )
                                  skills you would understand what I mean

                                  And you dont need to try for cheap sympathy by using terms
                                  like "cunning, thieving Indian Orthodox Church". The IOC has enough
                                  of my sympathy already. I totally respect you and also appreciate
                                  your posting, but this line could have been avoided. Putting words in
                                  my mouth or thoughts in my head arent exactly the right way to
                                  counter me. Of course your take on this aspect may be different.

                                  > To think that Mathew G M described this same thirumeni, who didn't
                                  > take shit from anybody, as a ``metropolitan directly under the
                                  > Patriarch of Antioch''. To borrow your words,
                                  > Abraham, ``interesting, though a little unsound''.

                                  I dont see what is unsound in this statement.


                                  Infact if one goes through the reference you have given
                                  http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol7No2/HV7N2Kiraz.html
                                  please look at the translation of Alvares's certificate- line 15,

                                  "and to exercise all consecrations and spiritual functions, etc.,
                                  suitable to the rank of Metropolitan under the jurisdiction of Moran
                                  the Patriarch, the high-priest, the head of our faith" .

                                  This one line should convince anyone if he was a metropolitan
                                  directly under the Patriarch.


                                  Indeed your reply contained rhetoric in great measure, but the
                                  flourish of it is really in the eyes of the reader. ;) Hearing this
                                  for the first time in my life

                                  There is absolutely no offence taken, on the contrary thank you for
                                  your clarification.

                                  Btw, The Brahmavar mission that was under Mor Julius is currenlty
                                  part of IOC, but the Honavar Mission also under Mor Julius is
                                  currently under JSC. Manoj had written mails about that mission and
                                  its activities earlier.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Abraham Kurian







                                  --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "georgy s
                                  thomas" <samadhanasnehi@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Abraham,
                                  > Warm welcome to the debate. I note your dissenting view regarding
                                  > how it would have been unwise for a person to be both against the
                                  > church and the state at the same time. I don't know how to convey
                                  > the flavour of my understanding of Alvares thirumeni's personality
                                  > to you. I will try. Let me just say that he was not a
                                  > very `practical' person. He was someone who opposed injustice
                                  > wherever he saw it, regardless of the consequences, and cared two
                                  > hoots about how many new power centres he had offended. Therefore,
                                  > he suffered, and his life remained a struggle till the very last.
                                  > His struggles against both the Catholic Church, and the Portuguese
                                  > have been well documented. You say that ``no one in their senses
                                  > would oppose the church and the state''at the same time. Well,
                                  > that's exactly what he did. To be ``sensible'' as we understand it,
                                  > was not a priority for the fierce fighter that thirumeni was. Such
                                  > courageous people who raise their voice against injustice wherever
                                  > they see it cannot be measured by the common yardsticks used to
                                  > assess ordinary ``sensible'' people. Let's get to the heart of the
                                  > matter.
                                  >
                                  > How do we know that Alvares thirumeni opposed the Roman Catholic
                                  > Church?
                                  >
                                  > Because he wrote critical pamphlets against the church with
                                  > provocative titles like ``Universal Supremacy in the Church of
                                  > Christ'. Because he broke away with nearly three thousand of his
                                  > supporters and joined Malankara Sabha first as a ramban, and then
                                  > following his elevation, as a metropolitan. Because the Catholic
                                  > Church foisted false cases against him in faraway places like
                                  > Tirunelveli, persecuted him in myriad ways, and excommunicated him.
                                  > Because, finally on his death, the church buried him in
                                  > a `themmadikuzhi'.
                                  > We also know that he was opposed to the Roman Catholic Church
                                  > because he shared the views of the Old Catholic rebels who opposed
                                  > the First Vatican Council's acceptance of the doctrine of Papal
                                  > Infallibility. His name is thus associated with the Independent
                                  > Catholic Church of Ceylon, Goa, and India. We further know that he
                                  > sympathised with the rebellious Old Catholic Church because he co-
                                  > consecrated an Old Catholic Frenchman from the United States by
                                  name
                                  > Joseph René Vilatte as a bishop in the Syriac Orthodox Church under
                                  > the name Mor Thimotheos. More details of René Vilatte can be
                                  > obtained from the George Kiraz article which Mathew cited:
                                  > http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol7No2/HV7N2Kiraz.html
                                  > Let me just note that Vilatte's subsequent conduct has spawned a
                                  > modern tradition of episcopi vagantes.
                                  >
                                  > Now for his nationalist sentiments and opposition to Portugal bit.
                                  > You describe my contentions rather patronisingly
                                  > as ``hypothesis'', ``interesting, though a little unsound'' and the
                                  > like. Very well. My description of thirumeni as a staunch
                                  > nationalist who opposed Portuguese rule in Goa was not something
                                  > that I conjured up in my mind. Thirumeni was in fact one of the
                                  > heroes of the Goan nationalist movement. Let me come to it with
                                  some
                                  > rhetorical flourish.
                                  >
                                  > How do we know that thirumeni opposed the Portuguese and was a
                                  > nationalist?
                                  > Because his grave at the St Inez Cemetry in Panaji was marked by a
                                  > huge concrete cross, and bore the following inscription in
                                  > Portuguese language, ``a great humanitarian missionary and one
                                  great
                                  > patriot''. Though his remains have been relocated to the St Mary's
                                  > Orthodox Church in Ribander, the original grave and the inscription
                                  > are still located at the St Inez cemetery.
                                  > Because thirumeni was also an accomplished journalist and wrote
                                  hard-
                                  > hitting articles against the Portuguese administration through
                                  > publications like A Cruz (The Cross), A Verde (The Truth), The
                                  Times
                                  > of Goa, and Progress de Goa.
                                  > Because one of the periodicals edited by thirumeni was entitled
                                  > Brado Indiano (The Indian Cry). The title of the publication
                                  clearly
                                  > indicated his nationalist sentiments.
                                  > Because the Brado Indiano newspaper was primarily held responsible
                                  > for instigating the 1895 Rane rebellion in Goa against the
                                  > Portuguese rule and ordered closed by the Portuguese administrator
                                  > Gomes da Costa.
                                  > Because Gomes da Costa had thirumeni arrested for sedition.
                                  > Because Gomes da Costa had thirumeni stripped publicly of his
                                  > vestments for aiding and abetting the rebellion against Portuguese
                                  > authority.
                                  > Because of all these reasons, Abraham, we can safely consider that
                                  > Mor Julius Alvares thirumeni was a staunch nationalist. Don't
                                  > believe me? Read this article from the respected Economic and
                                  > Political Weekly:
                                  > http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?
                                  > root=2005&leaf=02&filename=8339&filetype=html
                                  > The Pe (meaning Padre) Alvares being referred to is none other than
                                  > our thirumeni. Goans knew him by that name. Since Brado Indiano is
                                  > clearly mentioned alongside Alvares' name, we can be safe. Or can
                                  > we? What if the Alvares, who was the editor of Brado Indiano, is
                                  > some other Alvares? Why should you trust me? I am after all a
                                  member
                                  > of the cunning, thieving Indian Orthodox Church. Well, here's
                                  > confirmation from a posting by a respected Goan historian
                                  > Teotonio R de Souza. He is the head of the history department at
                                  the
                                  > Lusofna University in Lisbon, Portugal:
                                  > http://www.goanet.org/pipermail/goanet/2004-April/011781.html
                                  >
                                  > To think that Mathew G M described this same thirumeni, who didn't
                                  > take shit from anybody, as a ``metropolitan directly under the
                                  > Patriarch of Antioch''. To borrow your words,
                                  > Abraham, ``interesting, though a little unsound''.
                                  >
                                  > Regarding your assertions about the synodal majority, counting all
                                  > the Malayalee bishops, I repeat once again what I already said. In
                                  > August 1911, a rival Malankara Association was held at the behest
                                  of
                                  > the visiting Patriarch, and Kochuparambil thirumeni was made the
                                  > rival Malankara Metropolitan. There cannot be two Malankara
                                  > Metropolitans in the same synod. The two factions were thus
                                  > functioning as separate churches. Therefore, Mathew's schema of
                                  > counting all the bishops who lived in India at that time is flawed.
                                  > As I have said before, the decision to invite HH Patriarch Abdul
                                  > Masih II to Malankara must have been taken by the synod comprising
                                  > Vattasseril thirumeni and Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios.
                                  >
                                  > There are some other interesting tidbits that I would like to offer
                                  > MOSC forum members about the Konkani-speaking followers of Alvares
                                  > thirumeni who are now members of the Indian Orthodox Church. But
                                  > it's getting late, and I am tired. I will return to it another time.
                                  > I hope I haven't offended you in any way Abraham.
                                  >
                                  > Faithfully
                                  > Georgy S Thomas
                                  > Bangalore
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > PS
                                  >
                                  > You may require registration (which is free) to refer EPW online.
                                  > While you are at it, you may be interested in looking at an article
                                  > of mine which was published in EPW sometime back. No, it's not
                                  about
                                  > our church conflict. It's economics. I think it interests you:
                                  > http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?
                                  > root=2004&leaf=10&filename=7803&filetype=html
                                  >
                                • manojcgeorge
                                  Dear Ronnie, Murimattathil thirumeni was very much part of the association meeting which elected the two new bishops. It was only later when the idea of
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                    Dear Ronnie,

                                    Murimattathil thirumeni was very much part of the association meeting
                                    which elected the two new bishops. It was only later when the idea of
                                    establishing the catholicate and the post of the catholicose was
                                    offered to him did Murimattathil thirumeni switch sides. He was a part
                                    of the association convened by the Patriarch which elected the new
                                    bishops. At that time Vattasseril thirumeni was alone.

                                    Rgds
                                    Manoj
                                  • dhinuus
                                    Dear Brother Ronnie, I usually dont take sides in Church Politics. But if you say St. Athanasious of Aluva (Aluva Valiya Thirumeni) who I consider as a patron
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                      Dear Brother Ronnie,
                                      I usually dont take sides in Church Politics. But if you say St.
                                      Athanasious of Aluva (Aluva Valiya Thirumeni) who I consider as a
                                      patron saint of mine was ordained thru the back door I cannot sit
                                      still.

                                      I have clarified earlier, Aluva Valiya Thirumeni, Mar Athanasious and
                                      Mar Severious were duly elected and ordianed as Metropolitans. Even
                                      Murmattathil Thirumeni (who later became Catholicose)cooperated with
                                      this.

                                      I know my few words is not going to change anyones heart on either
                                      side.

                                      Instead of sinning futher, by arguing about futile Church politics. I
                                      had taken a pledge earlier not to do that, however violated it. I
                                      rest my case. You are free to assume what ever you like..

                                      Forgive me a sinner,if you feel I was trying to confuse you. Also
                                      please pray for me so that the Lord will have mercy on me.

                                      Mathew G M

                                      --- In
                                      MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "ronniedaniel1953"
                                      <ronniedaniel@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear Mathew
                                      >
                                      > Be reasonable brother. Why you wanted to confuse others.
                                      > There is no grey area. Let me put this story straight again.
                                      >
                                      > In the undivided Malankara Church when HH Patriarch Abdullah II
                                      > arrived in Malankara for the second
                                      > time in end-1909 there were three bishops.
                                      > They were :
                                      >
                                      > Malankara Metropolitan Vattasseril Mor Geevarghese
                                      > Dionysius VI, Murimattam Mor Paulose Ivanios, Kochuparambil Mor
                                      > Koorilos Paulose.
                                      >
                                      > A rift between the visiting patriarch and Vattasseril thirumeni soon
                                      > came into public view. The Patriarch soon consecrated two more
                                      > bishops in 1910 Mor Athanasius Paulose and Mor Severios
                                      > Gheevarghese without the consent of the Synod in Malankara.
                                      >
                                      > These two and one Bishop from the Original undivided Malankara
                                      Synod
                                      > formed a new Synod.
                                      >
                                      > That means the undivided orginal Malankara Synod has now Two
                                      > Metropolitans. Both of them unainamously decided to establish the
                                      > catholicate in Malankara. Where is the grey area in this ???
                                      >
                                      > rgds
                                      > ronnie
                                      >
                                    • ronniedaniel1953
                                      Thank you Manoj. My point is that it was not the united Synod of 5 Bishops which decided to establish the Catholicate. It was the original pre-split synod of
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                        Thank you Manoj.
                                        My point is that it was not the united Synod of 5 Bishops which decided
                                        to establish the Catholicate.
                                        It was the original pre-split synod of three who decided.
                                        Why would the Supreme court of India approve the installation if there
                                        was a procedural non-compliance.

                                        Rgds
                                        Ronnie
                                      • Biju Skaria
                                        Dear Mike, Sometime back when I pointed out that no SOC person will attend a JSC service except the clergy , you tried to fake it. But see what happened
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                          Dear Mike, Sometime back when I pointed out that no SOC person will attend a JSC service except the clergy , you tried to fake it. But see what happened here. Didnt JSC ppl have some issue with SOC. Sometime back you mentioned you are one happy unit. Unfortunately it is not so. White is white , brown is brown, black is black. JSC peope are spineless who opt for a Patriarch. They should learn to live with honor and dignity.

                                          Ahh no one can impose a priest anymore, cos Syrian intelligence is monitoring all and CIA wont allow that on US territory. We have to be silly when dealing with silly people ......

                                          Yrs in His service
                                          Biju Skaria
                                        • Thomas Varghese
                                          Dear all I think when we discusses the synod majority two things were to be considered 1.Whether H.G Alwaris mor Julios can be considered as a member of Synod?
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                            Dear all

                                            I think when we discusses the synod majority two things were to be
                                            considered
                                            1.Whether H.G Alwaris mor Julios can be considered as a member of
                                            Synod? What about Patriarchal delegate Whether he is a member of
                                            malankara Synod

                                            2. Who all are the members who supported H.G Vattaseril thirumeni?


                                            1.I think H.G Alwaris mor Julios can be considered as a member of
                                            Synod as Greater india diocese is under malankara always (even today
                                            in JSC-SOC arrangement it is like that),. But Patrarchal delegate is
                                            not a part of Malankara . (It is not malayalee or non malayalee to
                                            be considered ,It should be the Bishop's Juridsiction)

                                            2. When H.G Vattaseril thirumeni was excommunicated (?) by H.H
                                            patriarch. H.G Murimattathil thirumeni and H.G Alwaris mor Julios
                                            together written a letter giving support to H.G Vattaseril thirumeni.
                                            In this letter each points raised by H.H Patrarch were discussed and
                                            it is pointed out that these are not valid points for
                                            excommunication. Also It is pointed out that excommunication was not
                                            discussed with them and as they were the only bishops
                                            having 'Edavaka' they were the only members of the local Synod and
                                            any thing not discussed in the synod is not having any validity (
                                            reference - Malankarile katholikkamar by Mr. K.V. mammen)


                                            Another Most important thing is that two bishops who were
                                            consecrated on 1910 were given the consecration only when agreements
                                            in favour of H.H Patriach were signed by them.By that time already
                                            division was present inclusion of them to count majority in Synod is
                                            correct or not is difficult to decide.(One of the Bishop was Mor
                                            Severios for Knanaya and as per the present arrangement of JSC-SOC
                                            arrangement , Knanaya Bishop is a member of SOC synod and not
                                            Malankara Synod.)

                                            Another thing to be looked into is that whether a bishop who is not
                                            having 'Edavaka'(Diocese) is member of Synod or not.( I am not sure
                                            of this point ) This point is important because H.G. Kochuparambil
                                            thirumeni who supported H.H Patrarch was not having a diocese.

                                            Thanks
                                            Thomas varghese
                                            Karakkal St.George Orthodox Church
                                          • Prof.J.James
                                            mantra (MAN-truh) noun 1. A sound, word, or phrase that is repeated in prayer and is believed to have mystical powers. 2. An often repeated word of phrase that
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 6, 2006
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                                              mantra (MAN-truh) noun

                                              1. A sound, word, or phrase that is repeated in prayer and is believed
                                              to have mystical powers.

                                              2. An often repeated word of phrase that is closely associated with
                                              something; a slogan, byword, or a watchword.

                                              [From Sanskrit mantra (thought, formula). Ultimately from Indo-European
                                              root men- (to think) which is the source of mind, mnemonic, mosaic, music,
                                              mentor, money, and mandarin.]

                                              "These tips go beyond the 'test early and often' mantra and will improve
                                              your IT organization's testing capabilities."
                                            • ronniedaniel1953
                                              Dear Mathew Elevating a person as a Saint has nothing to do with ordination. Recently the Catholic church elevated one Upadeshi as a saint. So, plese keep
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 7, 2006
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                                                Dear Mathew

                                                Elevating a person as a Saint has nothing to do with ordination.
                                                Recently the Catholic church elevated one " Upadeshi" as a saint.
                                                So, plese keep these two issues seperate.

                                                You are saying that the two Bishops Patriarch ordained were duly
                                                elected by the Malankara Association. Which association you are
                                                talking about. There was/is only one church and one association.
                                                That was the association headed by the Malankara Metropolitan Mor
                                                Vattesseril thirumeni.
                                                Once a person is elected as a President or Prime Minister there are
                                                due processes to be completed before he is removed from that
                                                position. Untill this is done he is the person in charge and no
                                                Metropolitan could be ordained without his approval.

                                                For example what is the status of all your Bishops ordained without
                                                getting elected in the Malankara Association ?? Same status as of
                                                Bishop Yohannan Thirumeni of believers church.

                                                Rgds
                                                Ronnie
                                              • bindusirs
                                                Except for the late Baselios Paulose thirumeni, none of the JSC bishops alive as on date are elected by the the Malankara Association. They are all appointed
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 7, 2006
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                                                  Except for the late Baselios Paulose thirumeni, none of the JSC
                                                  bishops alive as on date are elected by the the Malankara
                                                  Association. They are all appointed by HH the Patriarch and continue
                                                  at his mercy as long as he wishes. Ofcourse JSC people will retort by
                                                  saying that the bishops were elected by their own people etc etc. All
                                                  that is nothing but propaganda. The last time JSC had a chance to
                                                  attend The Malankara Association meeting was when the court verdict
                                                  came out. At that time they boycotted and chose to form a church of
                                                  their own which is now known as the JSC church. This Slamoosa and all
                                                  such topics have no value either spiritual or can stand up in the
                                                  earthly courts as credible.

                                                  I have great respect for Baselios Paulose thirumeni as he was a
                                                  scholar and also because he elevated the present Patriarch to the
                                                  throne. Everyone knows how JSC treated him in oldage and how the
                                                  present Catholicose snatched office from him.

                                                  There is nothing wrong with the Orthodox church faith. But here and there some vested elements grabbed the offices and are behaving in such a un-christian manner. The same holds good for those who created Online Groups of the church. I reiterate these groups have nothing of spiritual value to contribute to your well-being. They have been created to promote rift and parrot official lies.

                                                  I request all MOSC members to stop this thread. It has no spiritual
                                                  purpose. It is a complete waste of energy and time.

                                                  Let the faithful decide.

                                                  Yrs
                                                  Bindu Scaria, IRS
                                                  Group Moderator: MOSc Group


                                                  --- In
                                                  MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "ronniedaniel1953"
                                                  <ronniedaniel@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Dear Mathew
                                                  >
                                                  > Elevating a person as a Saint has nothing to do with ordination.
                                                  > Recently the Catholic church elevated one " Upadeshi" as a saint.
                                                  > So, plese keep these two issues seperate.
                                                  >
                                                  > You are saying that the two Bishops Patriarch ordained were duly
                                                  > elected by the Malankara Association. Which association you are
                                                  > talking about. There was/is only one church and one association.
                                                  > That was the association headed by the Malankara Metropolitan Mor
                                                  > Vattesseril thirumeni.
                                                  > Once a person is elected as a President or Prime Minister there are
                                                  > due processes to be completed before he is removed from that
                                                  > position. Untill this is done he is the person in charge and no
                                                  > Metropolitan could be ordained without his approval.
                                                  >
                                                  > For example what is the status of all your Bishops ordained without
                                                  > getting elected in the Malankara Association ?? Same status as of
                                                  > Bishop Yohannan Thirumeni of believers church.
                                                  >
                                                  > Rgds
                                                  > Ronnie
                                                  >
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