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Church leaders are indecisive

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  • Colonel Jose
    Dear Group Elder, Itoop , Bindu and MOSC members, I first wrote here maybe a year back. At that time I also sent across my Vision Document which the Group
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 1, 2005
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      Dear Group Elder, Itoop , Bindu and MOSC members,

      I first wrote here maybe a year back. At that time I also sent across my Vision Document which the Group Elder so graciously loaded into the files / archives. As per the current situation, I think the following steps need to be undertaken.Accept that the problem is not with the Jacobite faction, but a we ourselves are responsible for this mess. As long as we have the Patriarch of Antioch's name in our thubden and books, All who read through it, will be AMBIVALENT with regards to his position in the church.
      ---------------------------TO DO's------------------------------------
      1. Call forth a Sabha meeting, and modify the constitution , to remove the Patriarch from his honarary position as head of the church.

      2. Submit a proposal to the church heads of the Oriental Orthodox family for inclusion into the First Thubden, if they include our catholicose in their readings also. This will give our church some image abroad. No attempt must be spared at establishing links with the East European orthodox churches and the churches in Africa.

      3. All church properties must be made out in name of the MOSC church. This is the surest way of securing our assets. No bishop must be allowed to own properties or assets, of the church privately.

      4. It makes a lot of sense to keep peace with the jacobite church. Since the Patriarch has already offerred to treat us as a sister church, we should be willing to make a trade off with the properties and vice versa.

      5. As the legitimate St. Thomas church , all our churches must carry his picture. All the intercessory prayers must invoke his name prominently. Subsequently all our dress codes and syrian liturgy must be modified to suit the Indian environment.

      I think the Vision Document says the rest.

      Peace is remote unless we make firm decisions and abide in them.

      Thnx

      Colonel Jose
    • Biju Skaria
      Hey Ronnie, Deepu is fishing for girls in orthodox church who he will marry, and then initiate into the Pentecostal cult. If you think he will come back and
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 3, 2005
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        Hey Ronnie,

        Deepu is fishing for girls in orthodox church who he will marry, and then initiate into the Pentecostal cult. If you think he will come back and join us, it will happen maybe in your dreams. Cults are very strong , no one can get out of it.

        Group Elder, i like your straight talk in this matter. My advice to Itoop saar is , sir pls sit back and let Bindu crack the whip. Douglas used to advice even that silly Phillip Oommenn, I wonder why he is silent this time.

        Truthfully
        Biju Skaria
      • yeljoseph
        Dear Elder, You made a very good comparison. Nobody is asking you and nobody is forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like their
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 3, 2005
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          Dear Elder,

          You made a 'very good' comparison. Nobody is asking you and nobody is
          forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like their
          forefathers want to remain loyal to the Patriarch, let them be. So,
          what is your problem? Why do you want to stop him? Is it necessary
          that everyone should hold your faction's opinion?

          Yeldho




          --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "moscelder"
          <itkorah@y...> wrote:
          > Dear Members,
          > I find it wallowing in guilt to believe that since the Patriarch
          > ordained the catholicose , the catholicose remains in eternal debt to
          > the Patriarch.
          >
          > Suppose we consider the case of India's independence, was not pundit
          > Nehru sworn in by Mountbatten. Is India a subject of England ever
          > since? No! On the contrary both India and UK are sovereign nations.
          >
          > I believe the time has come to declare full independence and move out
          > of the Patriarch loop, rather than being entangled with it forever.
          >
          > My hearty congrats to Bindu on being appointed Moderator, it sure
          > takes
          > a lot of load off my desk.
          >
          > Yrs
          > MOSCELDER
        • moscelder
          Dear Yeldo, The opinion I expressed is my personal one. Infact the entire church is indecisive about whom to follow. Im only urging MOSC church to rally around
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 3, 2005
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            Dear Yeldo,

            The opinion I expressed is my personal one. Infact the entire church
            is indecisive about whom to follow. Im only urging MOSC church to
            rally around the catholicose.

            Im not against JSC following the Patriarch.

            Yrs
            Itoop



            --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "yeljoseph"
            <yeljoseph@y...> wrote:
            > Dear Elder,
            >
            > You made a 'very good' comparison. Nobody is asking you and nobody
            is
            > forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like their
            > forefathers want to remain loyal to the Patriarch, let them be. So,
            > what is your problem? Why do you want to stop him? Is it
            necessary
            > that everyone should hold your faction's opinion?
            >
            > Yeldho
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In
            MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "moscelder"
            > <itkorah@y...> wrote:
            > > Dear Members,
            > > I find it wallowing in guilt to believe that since the Patriarch
            > > ordained the catholicose , the catholicose remains in eternal
            debt to
            > > the Patriarch.
            > >
            > > Suppose we consider the case of India's independence, was not
            pundit
            > > Nehru sworn in by Mountbatten. Is India a subject of England ever
            > > since? No! On the contrary both India and UK are sovereign
            nations.
            > >
            > > I believe the time has come to declare full independence and move
            out
            > > of the Patriarch loop, rather than being entangled with it
            forever.
            > >
            > > My hearty congrats to Bindu on being appointed Moderator, it sure
            > > takes
            > > a lot of load off my desk.
            > >
            > > Yrs
            > > MOSCELDER
          • alice john
            Dear Eldo, Chasing the shadow is not the truth; it ends up as a cult that stands as an obstacle to your salvation. Aren t you aware of the heresey, the sign of
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 3, 2005
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              Dear Eldo,

              Chasing the shadow is not the truth; it ends up as a cult that stands as an obstacle to your salvation. Aren't you aware of the heresey, the sign of the Doomsday, that the Patriarch faction is propagating?

              E.S.John, Australia

              yeljoseph <yeljoseph@...> wrote:
              Dear Elder,

              You made a 'very good' comparison. Nobody is asking you and nobody is
              forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like their
              forefathers want to remain loyal to the Patriarch, let them be. So,
              what is your problem? Why do you want to stop him? Is it necessary
              that everyone should hold your faction's opinion?

              Yeldho




              --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "moscelder"
              <itkorah@y...> wrote:
              > Dear Members,
              > I find it wallowing in guilt to believe that since the Patriarch
              > ordained the catholicose , the catholicose remains in eternal debt to
              > the Patriarch.
              >
              > Suppose we consider the case of India's independence, was not pundit
              > Nehru sworn in by Mountbatten. Is India a subject of England ever
              > since? No! On the contrary both India and UK are sovereign nations.
              >
              > I believe the time has come to declare full independence and move out
              > of the Patriarch loop, rather than being entangled with it forever.
              >
              > My hearty congrats to Bindu on being appointed Moderator, it sure
              > takes
              > a lot of load off my desk.
              >
              > Yrs
              > MOSCELDER






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            • yeljoseph
              Dear John, I have been following your postings for a long time and I am very embarassed that you are trying to impose your views on others. Man, I think you
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 4, 2005
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                Dear John,

                I have been following your postings for a long time and I am very
                embarassed that you are trying to impose your views on others. Man,
                I think you are living in a civilised society where everybody has the
                freedom to believe in what they think is right. Though you are living
                in the middle of civilised people, you are still not prepared to even
                acknowledge others view points. How can you say that what the
                Patriarch faction believes is heresy? Do you have any material
                evidence or solid proof to support your claim? You are making all
                these nonsense based on a story told only yesterday.

                Yeldho






                --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice john
                <john_aliceau@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Eldo,
                >
                > Chasing the shadow is not the truth; it ends up as a cult that
                stands as an obstacle to your salvation. Aren't you aware of the
                heresey, the sign of the Doomsday, that the Patriarch faction is
                propagating?
                >
                > E.S.John, Australia
                >
                > yeljoseph <yeljoseph@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Elder,
                >
                > You made a 'very good' comparison. Nobody is asking you and nobody
                is
                > forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like their
                > forefathers want to remain loyal to the Patriarch, let them be. So,
                > what is your problem? Why do you want to stop him? Is it
                necessary
                > that everyone should hold your faction's opinion?
                >
                > Yeldho
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In
                MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "moscelder"
                > <itkorah@y...> wrote:
                > > Dear Members,
                > > I find it wallowing in guilt to believe that since the Patriarch
                > > ordained the catholicose , the catholicose remains in eternal
                debt to
                > > the Patriarch.
                > >
                > > Suppose we consider the case of India's independence, was not
                pundit
                > > Nehru sworn in by Mountbatten. Is India a subject of England ever
                > > since? No! On the contrary both India and UK are sovereign
                nations.
                > >
                > > I believe the time has come to declare full independence and move
                out
                > > of the Patriarch loop, rather than being entangled with it
                forever.
                > >
                > > My hearty congrats to Bindu on being appointed Moderator, it sure
                > > takes
                > > a lot of load off my desk.
                > >
                > > Yrs
                > > MOSCELDER
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The only forum for all Christians to express their views freely.
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                >
                >
                > Visit your group "MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian" on the web.
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email!
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • ronniedaniel1953
                Dear Yeldho If Mr. John s story is of yesterday, your Syrian connection story is of day-before-yesterday. The fact is that there is another real story started
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 4, 2005
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                  Dear Yeldho

                  If Mr. John's story is of yesterday, your Syrian connection story is
                  of day-before-yesterday.
                  The fact is that there is another real story started long before
                  yesterday and day before yesterday. That is the story of one of
                  Christ's disciples coming to INdia, establishing a church in india
                  and ordaining priests and high priests.

                  This is similar to the Ayodhya temple dispute in north india.
                  Currently there is a temple. Before , there was a Mosque. And long
                  before there was a temple.

                  Another example is of the Free India. Currenlty India is a Free and
                  democratic country. About 60 years ago it was a British Colonly.
                  About 260 years ago it was still free india.

                  That means things evolve over years. You dont want to be colonised by
                  the British any more. Dont you ??

                  Similar way, some of us do not want a spiritual colonisation by the
                  Syrians. May be we had a bad time like the 200 years British rule.
                  But, that doesnt mean that you are the spiritual slaves of the
                  Syrians for ever. The British built nice rail lines, terminals,
                  parlaiment buildings while they rules. Did they take it away when
                  they left India ?? No.
                  Some poeple like Yeldoh for some unknown reasons wants still to
                  colonised by Syrians and we respect your views on this matter Yeldoh
                  and wish you all success.

                  But, remember one thing Yeldoh- We have our spiritual father St.
                  Thomas who suffered and martyred in INdia for our sake. Jesus said
                  his 12 disciples will sit on their 12 thrones and judge their
                  spiritual sons and daughters. I am not talking about the current
                  worldly throne fights. I dont care who is on the worldly throne. But,
                  I am concerned about the Eternal throne. May be you too need to be
                  concerned being a spiritual son of St. Thomas.
                  I am talking about the judgment on the second coming. You will not
                  be able to reject the throne of St. Thomas on that day of judgement.
                  Even the Roman Catholics church in INdia is playing it safe. They are
                  not denying the fact that St. Thomas is the patron saint of India.
                  They are trying to have dual nationality/thronality of St. Peter and
                  St. Thomas. Whereas you guys, the sons of St. Thomas are trying to
                  have a Syrian passport while still living in INdia.
                  Therefore, take care Yeldoh, it might prove costly later.

                  rgds
                  ronnie


                  --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "yeljoseph"
                  <yeljoseph@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear John,
                  >
                  > I have been following your postings for a long time and I am very
                  > embarassed that you are trying to impose your views on others.
                  Man,
                  > I think you are living in a civilised society where everybody has
                  the
                  > freedom to believe in what they think is right. Though you are
                  living
                  > in the middle of civilised people, you are still not prepared to
                  even
                  > acknowledge others view points. How can you say that what the
                  > Patriarch faction believes is heresy? Do you have any material
                  > evidence or solid proof to support your claim? You are making all
                  > these nonsense based on a story told only yesterday.
                  >
                  > Yeldho
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice john
                  > <john_aliceau@y...> wrote:
                  > > Dear Eldo,
                  > >
                  > > Chasing the shadow is not the truth; it ends up as a cult that
                  > stands as an obstacle to your salvation. Aren't you aware of the
                  > heresey, the sign of the Doomsday, that the Patriarch faction is
                  > propagating?
                  > >
                  > > E.S.John, Australia
                  > >
                  > > yeljoseph <yeljoseph@y...> wrote:
                  > > Dear Elder,
                  > >
                  > > You made a 'very good' comparison. Nobody is asking you and
                  nobody
                  > is
                  > > forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like their
                  > > forefathers want to remain loyal to the Patriarch, let them be.
                  So,
                  > > what is your problem? Why do you want to stop him? Is it
                  > necessary
                  > > that everyone should hold your faction's opinion?
                  > >
                  > > Yeldho
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In
                  > MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "moscelder"
                  > > <itkorah@y...> wrote:
                  > > > Dear Members,
                  > > > I find it wallowing in guilt to believe that since the
                  Patriarch
                  > > > ordained the catholicose , the catholicose remains in eternal
                  > debt to
                  > > > the Patriarch.
                  > > >
                  > > > Suppose we consider the case of India's independence, was not
                  > pundit
                  > > > Nehru sworn in by Mountbatten. Is India a subject of England
                  ever
                  > > > since? No! On the contrary both India and UK are sovereign
                  > nations.
                  > > >
                  > > > I believe the time has come to declare full independence and
                  move
                  > out
                  > > > of the Patriarch loop, rather than being entangled with it
                  > forever.
                  > > >
                  > > > My hearty congrats to Bindu on being appointed Moderator, it
                  sure
                  > > > takes
                  > > > a lot of load off my desk.
                  > > >
                  > > > Yrs
                  > > > MOSCELDER
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The only forum for all Christians to express their views freely.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Visit your group "MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian" on the
                  web.
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > > Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email!
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • yeljoseph
                  Dear Ronnie, You still do not seem to understand the essence of posting. In today s world you have the freedom to belive in what you think is right.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 5, 2005
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                    Dear Ronnie,

                    You still do not seem to understand the essence of posting. In
                    today's world you have the freedom to belive in what you think is
                    right. Similarly, I do have the same freedom.

                    I am neither asking you to accept my belief nor am I imposing my
                    views on you guys.

                    Here, what is wrong with you people is that you are trying to impose
                    your views and I cannt accept this attitude.

                    Regards

                    Eldho



                    --- In
                    MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "ronniedaniel1953"
                    <ronniedaniel@h...> wrote:
                    > Dear Yeldho
                    >
                    > If Mr. John's story is of yesterday, your Syrian connection story
                    is
                    > of day-before-yesterday.
                    > The fact is that there is another real story started long before
                    > yesterday and day before yesterday. That is the story of one of
                    > Christ's disciples coming to INdia, establishing a church in india
                    > and ordaining priests and high priests.
                    >
                    > This is similar to the Ayodhya temple dispute in north india.
                    > Currently there is a temple. Before , there was a Mosque. And long
                    > before there was a temple.
                    >
                    > Another example is of the Free India. Currenlty India is a Free and
                    > democratic country. About 60 years ago it was a British Colonly.
                    > About 260 years ago it was still free india.
                    >
                    > That means things evolve over years. You dont want to be colonised
                    by
                    > the British any more. Dont you ??
                    >
                    > Similar way, some of us do not want a spiritual colonisation by the
                    > Syrians. May be we had a bad time like the 200 years British rule.
                    > But, that doesnt mean that you are the spiritual slaves of the
                    > Syrians for ever. The British built nice rail lines, terminals,
                    > parlaiment buildings while they rules. Did they take it away when
                    > they left India ?? No.
                    > Some poeple like Yeldoh for some unknown reasons wants still to
                    > colonised by Syrians and we respect your views on this matter
                    Yeldoh
                    > and wish you all success.
                    >
                    > But, remember one thing Yeldoh- We have our spiritual father St.
                    > Thomas who suffered and martyred in INdia for our sake. Jesus said
                    > his 12 disciples will sit on their 12 thrones and judge their
                    > spiritual sons and daughters. I am not talking about the current
                    > worldly throne fights. I dont care who is on the worldly throne.
                    But,
                    > I am concerned about the Eternal throne. May be you too need to be
                    > concerned being a spiritual son of St. Thomas.
                    > I am talking about the judgment on the second coming. You will not
                    > be able to reject the throne of St. Thomas on that day of
                    judgement.
                    > Even the Roman Catholics church in INdia is playing it safe. They
                    are
                    > not denying the fact that St. Thomas is the patron saint of India.
                    > They are trying to have dual nationality/thronality of St. Peter
                    and
                    > St. Thomas. Whereas you guys, the sons of St. Thomas are trying to
                    > have a Syrian passport while still living in INdia.
                    > Therefore, take care Yeldoh, it might prove costly later.
                    >
                    > rgds
                    > ronnie
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In
                    MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "yeljoseph"
                    > <yeljoseph@y...> wrote:
                    > > Dear John,
                    > >
                    > > I have been following your postings for a long time and I am very
                    > > embarassed that you are trying to impose your views on others.
                    > Man,
                    > > I think you are living in a civilised society where everybody has
                    > the
                    > > freedom to believe in what they think is right. Though you are
                    > living
                    > > in the middle of civilised people, you are still not prepared to
                    > even
                    > > acknowledge others view points. How can you say that what the
                    > > Patriarch faction believes is heresy? Do you have any material
                    > > evidence or solid proof to support your claim? You are making
                    all
                    > > these nonsense based on a story told only yesterday.
                    > >
                    > > Yeldho
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice
                    john
                    > > <john_aliceau@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Dear Eldo,
                    > > >
                    > > > Chasing the shadow is not the truth; it ends up as a cult that
                    > > stands as an obstacle to your salvation. Aren't you aware of the
                    > > heresey, the sign of the Doomsday, that the Patriarch faction is
                    > > propagating?
                    > > >
                    > > > E.S.John, Australia
                    > > >
                    > > > yeljoseph <yeljoseph@y...> wrote:
                    > > > Dear Elder,
                    > > >
                    > > > You made a 'very good' comparison. Nobody is asking you and
                    > nobody
                    > > is
                    > > > forcing you to be under the Patriarch. If someone else like
                    their
                    > > > forefathers want to remain loyal to the Patriarch, let them be.
                    > So,
                    > > > what is your problem? Why do you want to stop him? Is it
                    > > necessary
                    > > > that everyone should hold your faction's opinion?
                    > > >
                    > > > Yeldho
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In
                    > > MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "moscelder"
                    > > > <itkorah@y...> wrote:
                    > > > > Dear Members,
                    > > > > I find it wallowing in guilt to believe that since the
                    > Patriarch
                    > > > > ordained the catholicose , the catholicose remains in eternal
                    > > debt to
                    > > > > the Patriarch.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Suppose we consider the case of India's independence, was not
                    > > pundit
                    > > > > Nehru sworn in by Mountbatten. Is India a subject of England
                    > ever
                    > > > > since? No! On the contrary both India and UK are sovereign
                    > > nations.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I believe the time has come to declare full independence and
                    > move
                    > > out
                    > > > > of the Patriarch loop, rather than being entangled with it
                    > > forever.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > My hearty congrats to Bindu on being appointed Moderator, it
                    > sure
                    > > > > takes
                    > > > > a lot of load off my desk.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yrs
                    > > > > MOSCELDER
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > The only forum for all Christians to express their views
                    freely.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Visit your group "MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian" on the
                    > web.
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > Service.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > > > Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one
                    email!
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • manojcgeorge
                    Dear Ronnie, Agreed with you for the sake of argument. Then to come back to the present from the stories of yesterdays, why did you need a deposed Patriarch
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 5, 2005
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                      Dear Ronnie,

                      Agreed with you for the sake of argument. Then to come back to the
                      present from the stories of yesterdays, why did you need a deposed
                      Patriarch from Antioch ? You had a malankara Metropolitan who was
                      ordained by the patriarch. He could have convened a local synod and
                      gone ahead with the same. Do you know how Mor Divannasios managed to
                      get back the malankara church properties from the Marthomites ? The
                      reason cited was since he was ordained by the Patriarch he was the
                      rightful owner. Have you read something called as Mavelikkara
                      padiyola written in 1836. I cannot understand why our forefathers
                      had to submit themselves to the patriarchate . Could you explain ?
                      And then there was the mulnathuruthy sunnahadose. People are bent on
                      proving that here the church was forcibly brought under the
                      patriarch. Go through the minutes of this famous sunnahadose. You
                      will find that every point was well explained and the Sunnahadose
                      took place over a period of three days. Not like the modern day
                      associations which are half day affairs and where half of the police
                      force of that particular town have to be diverted to the venue of
                      the associations.

                      Could you also explain why the Patriarch was given any position at
                      all in the 1934 constitution ? Why did not Mor Vattasseril conduct
                      any sacraments after his excommunication by the Patriarch? And if
                      you always wanted to be free why did you all authorise Mor Ivanios
                      to initiate dialoge with the RC church ?

                      Could you also explain why did Mor Augen declare in his shalmoosa on
                      being ordained as the catholicose that The Patriarch is my Head ?
                      Could you also explain why your church uses the name Malankara
                      Syrian Orthodox in the courts and then Indian Orthodox outside the
                      courts ?

                      Maybe you being so well versed in the church history of Day before
                      yesterdays can throw some light on the above events which happened.

                      And for your informnation.... We want to and yearn to be under the
                      spiritual guidance of the Antiochean patriarchate. If you dont want
                      to do so it is your problem. Please and PLEASE leave us alone.

                      Best Regards
                      Manoj George
                    • moscelder
                      Dear Colonel Jose, Sir,Thank You for sharing your views. All of us agree with you. The defnite methods which you suggested , will be implemented in our church
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 10, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Colonel Jose,
                        Sir,Thank You for sharing your views. All of us agree with you. The
                        defnite methods which you suggested , will be implemented in our
                        church in the days to come, is my prayer.

                        I hope you will comment on some of the articles being posted here. we
                        need some fresh air you see.

                        Best Regards
                        Yrs
                        Itoop Korah
                        MOSCELDER



                        --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "Colonel
                        Jose" wrote:
                        > Dear Group Elder, Itoop , Bindu and MOSC members,
                        >
                        > I first wrote here maybe a year back. At that time I also sent
                        across my Vision Document which the Group Elder so graciously loaded
                        into the files / archives. As per the current situation, I think the
                        following steps need to be undertaken.Accept that the problem is not
                        with the Jacobite faction, but a we ourselves are responsible for
                        this mess. As long as we have the Patriarch of Antioch's name in our
                        thubden and books, All who read through it, will be AMBIVALENT with
                        regards to his position in the church.
                        > ---------------------------TO DO's----------------------------------
                        --
                        > 1. Call forth a Sabha meeting, and modify the constitution , to
                        remove the Patriarch from his honarary position as head of the church.
                        >
                        > 2. Submit a proposal to the church heads of the Oriental Orthodox
                        family for inclusion into the First Thubden, if they include our
                        catholicose in their readings also. This will give our church some
                        image abroad. No attempt must be spared at establishing links with
                        the East European orthodox churches and the churches in Africa.
                        >
                        > 3. All church properties must be made out in name of the MOSC
                        church. This is the surest way of securing our assets. No bishop must
                        be allowed to own properties or assets, of the church privately.
                        >
                        > 4. It makes a lot of sense to keep peace with the jacobite church.
                        Since the Patriarch has already offerred to treat us as a sister
                        church, we should be willing to make a trade off with the properties
                        and vice versa.
                        >
                        > 5. As the legitimate St. Thomas church , all our churches must
                        carry his picture. All the intercessory prayers must invoke his name
                        prominently. Subsequently all our dress codes and syrian liturgy must
                        be modified to suit the Indian environment.
                        >
                        > I think the Vision Document says the rest.
                        >
                        > Peace is remote unless we make firm decisions and abide in them.
                        >
                        > Thnx
                        >
                        > Colonel Jose
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