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Re: Gifts of Holy Spirit in a RCC Nun- X

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  • Abba Brown
    Dear Ones, The church whose congregation awaits not, the 2nd coming is a dead church. For the fathers have departed in peace and abide in His presence , while
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 6, 2005
      Dear Ones,

      The church whose congregation awaits not, the 2nd coming is a dead church. For the fathers have departed in peace and abide in His presence , while the living deny the presence of God in their daily lives. You say : how do we deny ? Dont we not attend church on all Friday and Sundays , Do we not interceed in the names of Virgin and the saints. I tell you , "they your fathers and saints; they themselves will accuse you in front of Christ."

      Cursed is the one who lives as if Christ will never come again. For this is destruction. And if you believed in the Kingdom to come, you would not hesitate to discipline the church. Like the 5 foolish virgins , some church members are going to go to perdition. In such a case their devotion, their faith and their values are not untrue, but found unfit to enter into the kingdom.

      While you beloved wise virgins, hold on to the faith of your fathers , and also keep your eyes open. For in faith you will posess your souls. And the Son of God in whom is your faith , He will supply it as grace, the same will manifest and bear much fruit in your life.


      Abba Brown
    • B C Thomas
      Hello Suraj, I beg to disagree with your concept of Salvation being available only within the church. Actually it is the other way round. Church is gathering
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 6, 2005
        Hello Suraj,

        I beg to disagree with your concept of Salvation being available only within the church. Actually it is the other way round. Church is gathering of people who have attained salvation.

        Christ is available to all. Only christ can give salvation. Nowadays many churches ( new churches), dont belive in christ as the source of salvation. While traditional churches behave in a way , which confirms that they know little about Jesus and the slvation he provides.

        Though Im an orthodox from traditional family, i think we are better off when compared to all other churches, But are we good enough in front of God. That question only the 2nd coming of Jesus will answer.

        Thomas
      • suraj_iype
        Dear Philip, First of all glory to God in the highest. Indeed the Holy spirit can act in myraid ways. You say the entire church from the 4 century onwards is
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 7, 2005
          Dear Philip,
          First of all glory to God in the highest.
          Indeed the Holy spirit can act in myraid ways. You say the entire
          church from the 4 century onwards is living in ashes. Why spare the
          4 centuries. Those ordained as the fathers form the 4th century were
          disciples of the early fathers. Christianity for evangelicals
          exists, after the book of acts,only from 1970's onwards. The rest is
          ashes. Did the early church live only by healings , or by talking in
          tongues.read the fathers, Ignatius and Justin martyr, Polycarp and
          iraeneos. All died for Christ, yet they write about, the eucharist
          as the body and blood of Christ, about fasting and about the
          Theokotos and the Saints. Benny Hinn and br. dinakaran believe the
          communion to be a rememberance meal. It is an innovation , a genuine
          novum.All the fathers would have called this a most vile heresy.
          people dont mind calling 24 hr toll free prayer towers for
          intercession, but praying to the saints and martrys and the mother
          of God is a sin.
          One St Gregory of Palamas, was asked about some gnostics who held
          ecstatic, worship sessions, with talking in tongues. He replies, We
          know where the Church is, where she is not we cannot say. Healing
          and talking in tongues are gifts of the holy spirit.Gifts among
          many. Their place is within the Church. Not in opposition to it. The
          RCC nun can indeed have an experience. Because she remains within a
          Apostolic Church. The holy spirit has lived within the Church since
          pentecost. There is no salvation outside of the Church.
          C.Suraj Iype
          Secunderabad


          --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, alice john
          <john_aliceau@y...> wrote:
          > Dear Philip,
          >
          > Speaking in tongue, the only weapon of the H.Spirit, is a pop
          cultural syndrome of oil wealth of the apocalyptic times. " And no
          wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of
          light...Their end will corresponds to their deeds- 2.Cor.11: 14-15;
          Mt.7: 20-27. If you wnat to commit spiritual suicide, why should you
          try to coax others into yor net, just as several internets( 48 from
          my memory) advertising for companions for group suicides. Don't
          mislead the believers. Examine yourself whether you are prompted by
          Satan that is roming around like a lion to gulp the believers of the
          apocalyptic times.
          >
          > E.S.John, Australia
        • alice john
          Dear Thomas, Church is gathering of people who have attained salvation . The church is holy because the H.Spirit broods over it; it doesn t mean that whoever
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 8, 2005
            Dear Thomas,
            "Church is gathering of people who have attained salvation".
            The church is holy because the H.Spirit broods over it; it doesn't mean that whoever is in the church has received salvation. It is only a generalisation that the members of the church are holy because of the presence of the Spirit of God. We have to toil and moil day in and day out for our salvation. Only at the time of the Last Judgement, one can ascertain whether he gets it out of the grace of God, not on our merrits. Your last sentence confirms these statements. For further information, visit the site http://www.lightof life.com and read the articles " The last judgement 2/05 and ' Salvation- towards the end of last year.



            E.S.John, Australia




            ---------------------------------------------------------------------
            Hello Suraj,

            I beg to disagree with your concept of Salvation being available only within the church. Actually it is the other way round. Church is gathering of people who have attained salvation.

            Christ is available to all. Only christ can give salvation. Nowadays many churches ( new churches), dont belive in christ as the source of salvation. While traditional churches behave in a way , which confirms that they know little about Jesus and the slvation he provides.

            Though Im an orthodox from traditional family, i think we are better off when compared to all other churches, But are we good enough in front of God. That question only the 2nd coming of Jesus will answer.

            Thomas






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          • suraj_iype
            Dear Thomas , Yes I get your point, and I have been made to search long and hard for some answers. I ll try and present my point of view. When it is written
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 8, 2005
              Dear Thomas ,

              Yes I get your point, and I have been made to search long
              and hard for some answers. I'll try and present my point of view.

              When it is written that , there is indeed no salvation outside of
              the church, do we dare to try and limit the grace of God. Is he not
              able to raise men from stones so that they can give praise to his
              Holy Name. God will save , those whom he wants. With the
              Incarnation of our Lord, that desire to save extends to all mankind.
              The church fully acknowledges the existence of Gods love for
              everyone, even beyond the Church. Note St Gregory's quote in my last
              post, he does not judge those outside the Church, he just says what
              he knows for sure.

              The identification of the authentic Church was a matter of life and
              eternal salvation for the Church Fathers. "Whoever is separated from
              the Church and is joined to an adulteress," declares St Cyprian, "is
              separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes
              the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an
              alien, a worldling, and an enemy. He cannot have God for his Father
              who has not the Church for his mother." And again: "There is no
              salvation outside the Church." Neither the Protestant understanding
              of the invisible Church nor the Anglican understanding of the unity
              of the fractured Church is to be found in the Fathers. The Church is
              visibly one, and this unity is embodied in baptism, eucharist, and
              the eucharistic communion of bishops. Precisely because the Church
              is the divine society ordained by the risen Christ, precisely
              because of the profound identification between the risen Christ and
              his mystical body, salvation can only be found in that rightly
              ordered community of grace to which the promises of Christ rightly
              apply. The Church Fathers had a lot of experience with schismatic
              and heretical sects, and they did not hesitate to declare these
              sects outside the communion of the Church catholic and thus outside
              the promises of Christ.
              (The above quote has been taken from Fr Al Kimels Blog,
              Pontifications)

              Todays protestant denominations , declare all the structures of the
              Holy and Apostolic Church to be invalid. Nothing is sacrosanct.
              Scripture Alone they say. Yet we know that if we faithfully approach
              Gods word, in awe and worship, God may have mercy upon us. Isnt that
              all we desire for. We are exhorted to pray, Lord have mercy upon us.
              Is God not capable of showing us the courts of heaven. Then what we
              must ask is the role of the Church in the world. There is one
              Christ, hence one church. The one body of Christ is offered to us
              from all the altars. That is the greatest of mysteries. But surely
              this can happen only when we acknowledge it to be the body of
              Christ. Protestants differ not only from the Orthodox and Catholic
              churches in their understanding of the Eucharist but also in the
              ministry of the Priests. The great body of living and Holy Tradition
              that is alive within the OO/EO and RC church is unanimous in saying
              that the promises of Christ cannot rightly apply to such a
              denomination. I would say that someone could be saved within the
              Episcopal Church, because God is good and his mercy endures forever,
              but not because or by virtue of the Episcopal Church as it exists
              today. Anyone who is actually conforming to the "doctrine,
              discipline and worship" of the Episcopal Church with a whole heart
              could be doing real damage to his soul.

              So the Church readily acknowledges that many elements of
              sanctification and truth are found outside its visible structure,
              but these gifts are given to the Church unreservedly because she is
              the bride of Christ.
              No nor de we, nor does the priest whose hands raise the blessed
              sacraments have any righteousness before God. We all fall short
              before him . But because we are in communion with His church, and to
              the church to power to bind and release is given ,we can say that
              the gates of Hell cannot prevail against us. This is manifested,
              when we who are unworthy, receive Christ into us.
              In my view, the efficacy of sacraments when they are offered outside
              the Church is not guaranteed. Those who by the grace of the Holy
              Spirit, know about the Holy Orthodox and catholic church should then
              try and enter into full communion with it. This alone is the basis
              of extra ecclesiam nulla salus(No salvation outside the Church)

              Hope I am still making some sense .

              Shlomo
              C.Suraj Iype
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