Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: why philip oommen should be worried

Expand Messages
  • ronniedaniel1953
    Hello Georgy Well said. I think you should post it in the other forums and our other publications as well ( but rather not pointing at our poor Philip), so
    Message 1 of 12 , May 6, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Georgy

      Well said.
      I think you should post it in the other forums and our other
      publications as well ( but rather not pointing at our poor Philip),
      so that more people will read it and understand the nefarious
      activities of these chrsitians fishing people from other christian
      communities.
      I never wanted to criticize them as I thought they are also praying.
      But, I never thought that the Catholic church had a hidden agenda in
      their Potta experiment. The same hidden agenda they had in a
      consecrating a Catholicose for India.
      Dont worry Geory. Let us loose folks who want to rock n roll. The
      winners finally will be those who follow the real christianity.

      No wonder the Hindus are fighting them in the North.
      Keep up the good work Georgy

      Best Rgds
      Ronnie Daniel
      Toronto
      Canada


      --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "georgy s
      thomas" <samadhanasnehi@y...> wrote:
      > Philip Oommen (message # 1468) is thrilled to bits since he finds
      > even Roman Catholic priests joining in television evangelism.
      > According to him, what this means is that the born-again, rock and
      > roll Christianity as practised by the likes of him under the
      > leadership of sundry pastors is now making inroads into the Catholic
      > religion. How wrong can one get to be? If I were Philip, the news
      > that Roman Catholic priests are joining in television evangelism
      > would have made me worried, very worried.
      > To understand why, let us look at the broad picture. If one were to
      > use the terminology borrowed from information technology (IT), while
      > other Christian denominations are mere verticals, the Roman Catholic
      > Church is a full-service provider of end-to-end solutions. The
      uniate
      > churches are the verticals within the Catholic fold. So you like the
      > West Syrian liturgy and still want to be a Catholic? No problem,
      join
      > the Syro-Malankara church in Kerala (Malayalam) or the Syrian
      > Catholic church in the Middle-East (Arabic). Even as you're
      > spared the cultural shock of an alien liturgy, you can still be
      > Catholic, or as one priest who invited me to the Malankara Catholic
      > fold said, ``you can be a flower in the garden of the
      > Pope''.
      > What did you say? You would rather be at home listening to the
      > liturgy and surrounded by the symbols and rituals of the Byzantine
      > Church? Not to worry, you can be a Byzantine and a Catholic at once
      > by joining the Melkite Catholic Church of Antioch (Arabic), Melkite
      > Catholic Church of Alexandria (Greek in an Egyptian ambience), or
      > even the Greek Catholic Church. As you can see, the Catholic church
      > would like to be everything to every Christian.
      > Nevertheless, for a long time, Rome didn't have the equivalent of
      > the exuberant, rock and roll version of American Christianity which
      > had spawned regional spin-offs everywhere. Then small, localised
      > developments began to take place in Catholic Churches across the
      > world where its adherents began to practise a version of Catholicism
      > which resembled American rock and roll Christianity. Like Potta in
      > Kerala. Though the church leadership's instinctive response was
      > to try and stamp it out, eventually, as always, realisation dawned.
      > Or rather, as the Brits would say, the penny dropped: Rock and roll
      > Christianity has its appeal for a small section of the faithful who
      > demand a more emotional religion with lots of singing and dancing
      and
      > jumping about. Most of them are slightly unhinged characters to
      boot.
      > Once they achieved this conceptual clarity, the Catholics began to
      > institutionalise the Potta experiment. So if you are a Catholic
      > faithful in Kerala, and you are someone who feels the urge to
      > practise a more emotive religion, you go to Potta for a week, do
      your
      > jig (as the yanks would put it), and once you've got the euphoria
      > out of the system, come back and lead the life of a good Catholic.
      > Yes, as a flower in the Pope's garden. God knows how many
      > thousands of Catholics who would have been lost to the Pentecostal
      > faith were retained with Rome thanks to Pota.
      > Now as Philip has observed, Catholics are experimenting with TV
      > evangelism as well. Philip should be worried, very worried. Because
      > so far, experiments like Pota to contain American-style rock and
      roll
      > Christianity — which is very dear to Philip and Co — have
      > been restricted to regional pockets. But sooner than later, the
      > Catholic bureaucracy in Rome will gather all these localised
      > knowledge bases, and then after drawing the right lessons from them,
      > rollout a massive worldwide crackdown against American evangelism.
      At
      > that time, to put it in American parlance, Philip and Co can't do
      > nothin' but start runnin'.
      > Historically, this is what Catholicism has always done. Counter the
      > challenger by appropriating his language and symbols. The uniate
      > churches are just one plank of it. How can we forget the
      > counter-reformation of Europe, where the Catholic Church, by a
      > combination of internal reform and the missionary zeal of the
      Jesuits
      > — who matched the Protestants word for word in their scholarship
      > — rolled back Protestantism from Bavaria (the present pope is a
      > Bavarian), Austria, France, Poland and Bohemia (in present-day
      > Belgium if I am not mistaken)? Conceptual clarity on the issues
      > involved preceded this success. Catholicism made the crucial
      > intellectual breakthrough that changes taking place in European
      > society at large involving the rise of merchant class had played a
      > role in presenting Protestant faith as attractive. I quote from the
      > Britannica encyclopaedia, ``The traditional Roman Catholic
      > prohibition of any lending of money at interest as `usury',
      > the monastic glorification of poverty as an ascetic ideal, and the
      > Roman Catholic system of holidays as times when no work was to be
      > done were all seen by the rising merchant class as obstacles to
      > financial development.'' Once the necessary adjustments were
      > made to make allowances for these felt needs, Catholic
      > counter-reformation could gather strength.
      > Catholic forays into TV evangelism should be seen in this context as
      > their attempt to understand the strength of the medium, and not as
      > going Pentecostal like poor Philip thinks.
      > God knows we are not perfect, but sanctimonious characters like
      > Philip & Co who are always criticising the traditional churches and
      > their apostolic traditions are strangely oblivious to their own
      > shortcomings. To point out a few:
      > . They are forever quoting from the Bible, but paradoxically,
      > can't seem to trust the word of God, since they are forever
      > trying to organise newer versions of the book, leading to
      distortions
      > and rewrites.
      > . They are very harsh in criticising the practices of
      traditional
      > churches using so-called logic and reasoning (for instance,
      > questioning the need for intercessionary prayers). But their logic
      > and reasoning deserts them when it comes to dealing with the
      policies
      > of the United States and Israel, to whom they seem to be very
      > emotionally attached. To the Pentecostal types, these two countries
      > can do no wrong. The evangelicals are ready to justify even their
      > worst crimes against humanity by providing apocalyptic, mumbo-jumbo
      > interpretations.
      > . The evangelicals heap scorn upon traditional Christianity
      citing
      > schisms and internal differences, but they are ready to acquiesce
      > when power-hungry pastors create schisms and form new denominations
      > and even turn them into cults.
      > Philip Oommen can continue heaping scorn on his mother church which
      > he seems to have deserted after falling prey to the allure of
      > American evangelism. But his sanctimonious self can do nothing to
      > destroy our faith which is built on strong foundations.
      > Faithfully,
      > Georgy S Thomas
      > Bangalore
    • alice john
      Dear Georgy, Congratulations for your spiritual, intellectual and scholastic output. You don t need anything other than kneeling down at the feet of the pope
      Message 2 of 12 , May 6, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Georgy,

        Congratulations for your spiritual, intellectual and scholastic output. You don't need anything other than kneeling down at the feet of the pope as your infallible head, salvation and earthly prosperity is automatic and eternally guaranteed. The extreme protestant churches are also nonetheless any way different in anything. They can do anything under the umbrella of spirituality; your allegiance to their profligacy and your money are the most important factors that count.

        Don't worry; your optimistic approach will give life to at least some yearning believers. What the Bakan of the mythology said to Biman is going to prove at the end of the day. All these trepidations of the leftist and rightist churches will end up in the mouth of the Antichrist who is already waiting at the door for a total sweep. Only the Orthodox churches, the Bride of the Bridegroom, that was born in fire and blood will be able to meet the Groom in the inner chamber for the betrothal. Let us pray for their repentance and return to buy some oil for their empty lamps.

        Keep up with your cerebrations against the rock and roll Christianity, Georgy.

        E.S.John, Australia

        georgy s thomas <samadhanasnehi@...> wrote:
        Philip Oommen (message # 1468) is thrilled to bits since he finds
        even Roman Catholic priests joining in television evangelism.
        According to him, what this means is that the born-again, rock and
        roll Christianity as practised by the likes of him under the
        leadership of sundry pastors is now making inroads into the Catholic
        religion. How wrong can one get to be? If I were Philip, the news
        that Roman Catholic priests are joining in television evangelism
        would have made me worried, very worried.
        To understand why, let us look at the broad picture. If one were to
        use the terminology borrowed from information technology (IT), while
        other Christian denominations are mere verticals, the Roman Catholic
        Church is a full-service provider of end-to-end solutions. The uniate
        churches are the verticals within the Catholic fold. So you like the
        West Syrian liturgy and still want to be a Catholic? No problem, join
        the Syro-Malankara church in Kerala (Malayalam) or the Syrian
        Catholic church in the Middle-East (Arabic). Even as you're
        spared the cultural shock of an alien liturgy, you can still be
        Catholic, or as one priest who invited me to the Malankara Catholic
        fold said, ``you can be a flower in the garden of the
        Pope''.
        What did you say? You would rather be at home listening to the
        liturgy and surrounded by the symbols and rituals of the Byzantine
        Church? Not to worry, you can be a Byzantine and a Catholic at once
        by joining the Melkite Catholic Church of Antioch (Arabic), Melkite
        Catholic Church of Alexandria (Greek in an Egyptian ambience), or
        even the Greek Catholic Church. As you can see, the Catholic church
        would like to be everything to every Christian.
        Nevertheless, for a long time, Rome didn't have the equivalent of
        the exuberant, rock and roll version of American Christianity which
        had spawned regional spin-offs everywhere. Then small, localised
        developments began to take place in Catholic Churches across the
        world where its adherents began to practise a version of Catholicism
        which resembled American rock and roll Christianity. Like Potta in
        Kerala. Though the church leadership's instinctive response was
        to try and stamp it out, eventually, as always, realisation dawned.
        Or rather, as the Brits would say, the penny dropped: Rock and roll
        Christianity has its appeal for a small section of the faithful who
        demand a more emotional religion with lots of singing and dancing and
        jumping about. Most of them are slightly unhinged characters to boot.
        Once they achieved this conceptual clarity, the Catholics began to
        institutionalise the Potta experiment. So if you are a Catholic
        faithful in Kerala, and you are someone who feels the urge to
        practise a more emotive religion, you go to Potta for a week, do your
        jig (as the yanks would put it), and once you've got the euphoria
        out of the system, come back and lead the life of a good Catholic.
        Yes, as a flower in the Pope's garden. God knows how many
        thousands of Catholics who would have been lost to the Pentecostal
        faith were retained with Rome thanks to Pota.
        Now as Philip has observed, Catholics are experimenting with TV
        evangelism as well. Philip should be worried, very worried. Because
        so far, experiments like Pota to contain American-style rock and roll
        Christianity #8212; which is very dear to Philip and Co #8212; have
        been restricted to regional pockets. But sooner than later, the
        Catholic bureaucracy in Rome will gather all these localised
        knowledge bases, and then after drawing the right lessons from them,
        rollout a massive worldwide crackdown against American evangelism. At
        that time, to put it in American parlance, Philip and Co can't do
        nothin' but start runnin'.
        Historically, this is what Catholicism has always done. Counter the
        challenger by appropriating his language and symbols. The uniate
        churches are just one plank of it. How can we forget the
        counter-reformation of Europe, where the Catholic Church, by a
        combination of internal reform and the missionary zeal of the Jesuits
        #8212; who matched the Protestants word for word in their scholarship
        #8212; rolled back Protestantism from Bavaria (the present pope is a
        Bavarian), Austria, France, Poland and Bohemia (in present-day
        Belgium if I am not mistaken)? Conceptual clarity on the issues
        involved preceded this success. Catholicism made the crucial
        intellectual breakthrough that changes taking place in European
        society at large involving the rise of merchant class had played a
        role in presenting Protestant faith as attractive. I quote from the
        Britannica encyclopaedia, ``The traditional Roman Catholic
        prohibition of any lending of money at interest as `usury',
        the monastic glorification of poverty as an ascetic ideal, and the
        Roman Catholic system of holidays as times when no work was to be
        done were all seen by the rising merchant class as obstacles to
        financial development.'' Once the necessary adjustments were
        made to make allowances for these felt needs, Catholic
        counter-reformation could gather strength.
        Catholic forays into TV evangelism should be seen in this context as
        their attempt to understand the strength of the medium, and not as
        going Pentecostal like poor Philip thinks.
        God knows we are not perfect, but sanctimonious characters like
        Philip & Co who are always criticising the traditional churches and
        their apostolic traditions are strangely oblivious to their own
        shortcomings. To point out a few:
        . They are forever quoting from the Bible, but paradoxically,
        can't seem to trust the word of God, since they are forever
        trying to organise newer versions of the book, leading to distortions
        and rewrites.
        . They are very harsh in criticising the practices of traditional
        churches using so-called logic and reasoning (for instance,
        questioning the need for intercessionary prayers). But their logic
        and reasoning deserts them when it comes to dealing with the policies
        of the United States and Israel, to whom they seem to be very
        emotionally attached. To the Pentecostal types, these two countries
        can do no wrong. The evangelicals are ready to justify even their
        worst crimes against humanity by providing apocalyptic, mumbo-jumbo
        interpretations.
        . The evangelicals heap scorn upon traditional Christianity citing
        schisms and internal differences, but they are ready to acquiesce
        when power-hungry pastors create schisms and form new denominations
        and even turn them into cults.
        Philip Oommen can continue heaping scorn on his mother church which
        he seems to have deserted after falling prey to the allure of
        American evangelism. But his sanctimonious self can do nothing to
        destroy our faith which is built on strong foundations.
        Faithfully,
        Georgy S Thomas
        Bangalore






        The only forum for all Christians to express their views freely.



        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Groups Links

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian/

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.






        ---------------------------------
        Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Babu Johnson
        When we want things around us to change, the best place to start in within ourselves. Lord, grant that my frustrations can be a motivation to better myself and
        Message 3 of 12 , May 6, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          When we want things around us to change, the best place to start in within ourselves. Lord, grant that my frustrations can be a motivation to better myself and my environment.
        • thomas george
          dear Georgy, well said and my sincere thanks. Its been quiet some time since we have been living with this member from puramattom orthodox church . ( frankly,
          Message 4 of 12 , May 7, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            dear Georgy,

            well said and my sincere thanks.

            Its been quiet some time since we have been living with this "member from puramattom orthodox church".

            ( frankly, if he is truly a member of puramattom church, the graves of his forefathers should be opened and the decaying bones should be fed to the local stray dogs)

            bye

            Thomas
            Puthupally
          • Cherian, Cherry
            Dear George, Brilliant and well researched post and an apt reply to our lost friend Philip Oomen. Wish I could have replied just as you did. Keep more of these
            Message 5 of 12 , May 8, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear George,

              Brilliant and well researched post and an apt reply to our lost friend
              Philip Oomen. Wish I could have replied just as you did. Keep more of
              these coming.


              + Prayers +


              Cherian
            • Jacob Mathew
              I see that we are ganging up to silence one or two persons who have some differing viewpoints. I am not necessarily agreeing to their points of view; but
              Message 6 of 12 , May 8, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                I see that we are ganging up to "silence" one or two persons who have
                some differing viewpoints. I am not necessarily agreeing to their points
                of view; but there is some value in hearing all sides of a story.

                Also, one of the problem we, Keralites, have is that we do not know how
                to provide a good critique. We can critique a topic or viewpoint; but
                you should never make it personal. People get hurt when you direct the
                venom at them personally. I hope that we can respect their viewpoints;
                express our point of view why we disagree with their stand and should go
                on. I am impressed that Mr. Philip never personally attacked anyone; he
                was critiquing some of our practices, which he does not believe in
                (intercessonary prayers, saints, etc.)
                .
                Today in the church I attended the priest was giving a sermon about
                confidence and faith. He mentioned about early Christian Church and how
                Jews were ex-communicating everyone who were accepting Jesus' teachings.
                That was because they had different beliefs than the mainstream.
                Remember Galileo who was excommunicated because he said earth was round.
                Recently, apparently in North Carolina, a church kicked out 7 families
                because they were democrats and voted for Kerry!

                When you take a step back, you will see these actions in a different
                light and see how unwise it was to torture someone because they were
                courageous enough to express their beliefs.

                One of the things I really admire about Rev Billy Graham is that he
                never "bad mouth" anyone else. He simply talks what he believes in. That
                is what makes him so effective and is accepted by all Christians.
                Similarly Mother Teresa, while strongly believing in Jesus Christ,
                nevertheless loves everyone irrespective of which religion they
                followed. I don't think mother was involved in any conversion.

                So, I hope that we can agree that everyone has a right to share their
                views without hurting anyone else. Just because what they believe is
                different than what we believe does not make them any worse than we are
                or a bad person.

                Remember, man was created in the image of God. There is divinity in
                everyone of us. When Christ died, he converted our physical bodies into
                a place where God /Holy Spirit can indwell. God does not make any junk!

                Jacob
                Hudson, Ohio
              • Athanasios Thirumeni
                All the goodness of the past, the present, and the future, Christ bestows upon His people. In the mysterious ages of the past the Lord Jesus was His Father s
                Message 7 of 12 , May 9, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  All the goodness of the past, the present, and the future, Christ bestows upon His people. In the mysterious ages of the past the Lord Jesus was His Father's first elect, and in His election He gave us an interest, for we were chosen in Him from before the foundation of the world.

                  "Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings."-Ephesians 1:3

                  He had from all eternity the prerogatives of Sonship, as His Father's only-begotten and well-beloved Son, and He has, in the riches of His grace, by adoption and regeneration, elevated us to sonship also, so that to us He has given "power to become the sons of God." The eternal covenant, based upon suretiship and confirmed by oath, is ours, for our strong consolation and security. In the everlasting settlements of predestinating wisdom and omnipotent decree, the eye of the Lord Jesus was ever fixed on us; and we may rest assured that in the whole roll of destiny there is not a line which militates against the interests of His redeemed. The great betrothal of the Prince of Glory is ours, for it is to us that He is affianced, as the sacred nuptials shall ere long declare to an assembled universe.

                  The marvellous incarnation of the God of heaven, with all the amazing condescension and humiliation which attended it, is ours. Whatever blissful consequences flow from perfect obedience, finished atonement, resurrection, ascension, or intercession, all are ours by His own gift. Upon His breastplate he is now bearing our names; and in His authoritative pleadings at the throne He remembers our persons and pleads our cause. His dominion over principalities and powers, and His absolute majesty in heaven, He employs for the benefit of them who trust in Him. His high estate is as much at our service as was His condition of abasement. He who gave Himself for us in the depths of woe and death, doth not withdraw the grant now that He is enthroned in the highest heavens.

                  + Athanasios Thirumeni +
                • ronniedaniel1953
                  Jacob For most of us what happens is that we are not communicating in our mothertoungue. That makes a huge difference. Recently in the ICON forum one very
                  Message 8 of 12 , May 9, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jacob

                    For most of us what happens is that we are not communicating in our
                    mothertoungue. That makes a huge difference. Recently in the ICON
                    forum one very elder person from Detriot made a comment whcih was
                    seeming to be disrespectful of our Bishops. People showered abuses on
                    him left and right without actually understanding the person and his
                    English language skills.
                    Therefore, I think most of the time it is not out of disrespect.

                    Also, we should not foget the fact that ours is a faith based
                    religion. We are tought to simply beleive that the whole world was
                    made in 6 days. You have to beleive that Man was made in the image of
                    God and woman was made from the rib of Man. You have to beleive that
                    Jesus was born of a virgin and died and resurrected.

                    These are the general beleifs. And when it comes to Orthodox, our
                    fiath teaches us that we must venerate our Saints and seek their
                    intercession. You have a problem if someone quuestions your faith.
                    There is no disucssion on faith. For eg. I am sure you and philip
                    would get annoyed if some one argues with you that Jesus was not born
                    of a virgin. Right??
                    Obviously, we get annoyed when someone questions our faith of
                    intercessionary prayers to saints which was taught to us from our
                    childhood. And for our members who are of the last generation it
                    would be extremely difficult to accept and they get angry when they
                    hear these pastors airing it in our forums.

                    I am not denying Philip's right to promote Pentacost sect in this
                    forum. But, let him take the Pentacost identity and air his views,
                    rather than claiming to be a member of our Orhtodox church in
                    Puramattom.

                    Pastor Philip has two chooices here. 1. Learn our real faith from his
                    priest or Bishop if he is still an Orthodox Christian. Consider faith
                    as faith, and not a subject of arguement. 2. He can identify himself
                    as a pentacost pastor and preach his beliefs to members of this
                    forum.

                    This forum is open doesn't mean that he or anyone else can abuse it.
                    There are some readers who are looking for quality informations
                    compatible with our faith, not pentacost theologies.

                    rgds
                    ronnie



                    --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, Jacob Mathew
                    <jacob@i...> wrote:
                    > I see that we are ganging up to "silence" one or two persons who
                    have
                    > some differing viewpoints. I am not necessarily agreeing to their
                    points
                    > of view; but there is some value in hearing all sides of a story.
                    >
                    > Also, one of the problem we, Keralites, have is that we do not know
                    how
                    > to provide a good critique. We can critique a topic or viewpoint;
                    but
                    > you should never make it personal. People get hurt when you direct
                    the
                    > venom at them personally. I hope that we can respect their
                    viewpoints;
                    > express our point of view why we disagree with their stand and
                    should go
                    > on. I am impressed that Mr. Philip never personally attacked
                    anyone; he
                    > was critiquing some of our practices, which he does not believe in
                    > (intercessonary prayers, saints, etc.)
                    > .
                    > Today in the church I attended the priest was giving a sermon about
                    > confidence and faith. He mentioned about early Christian Church and
                    how
                    > Jews were ex-communicating everyone who were accepting Jesus'
                    teachings.
                    > That was because they had different beliefs than the mainstream.
                    > Remember Galileo who was excommunicated because he said earth was
                    round.
                    > Recently, apparently in North Carolina, a church kicked out 7
                    families
                    > because they were democrats and voted for Kerry!
                    >
                    > When you take a step back, you will see these actions in a
                    different
                    > light and see how unwise it was to torture someone because they
                    were
                    > courageous enough to express their beliefs.
                    >
                    > One of the things I really admire about Rev Billy Graham is that he
                    > never "bad mouth" anyone else. He simply talks what he believes in.
                    That
                    > is what makes him so effective and is accepted by all Christians.
                    > Similarly Mother Teresa, while strongly believing in Jesus Christ,
                    > nevertheless loves everyone irrespective of which religion they
                    > followed. I don't think mother was involved in any conversion.
                    >
                    > So, I hope that we can agree that everyone has a right to share
                    their
                    > views without hurting anyone else. Just because what they believe
                    is
                    > different than what we believe does not make them any worse than we
                    are
                    > or a bad person.
                    >
                    > Remember, man was created in the image of God. There is divinity in
                    > everyone of us. When Christ died, he converted our physical bodies
                    into
                    > a place where God /Holy Spirit can indwell. God does not make any
                    junk!
                    >
                    > Jacob
                    > Hudson, Ohio
                  • Cherian, Cherry
                    Dear Jacob Mathew, Your concerns are genuine and certainly deserve merit. Some of the heated replies were highly uncalled for. I condemn the unfortunate and
                    Message 9 of 12 , May 9, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Jacob Mathew,

                      Your concerns are genuine and certainly deserve merit. Some of the
                      heated replies were highly uncalled for. I condemn the unfortunate and
                      reckless manner in which a couple of list members reacted and the
                      statement "the graves of his forefathers should be opened and the
                      decaying bones should be fed to the local stray dogs" crossed all
                      limits. I wonder how Philip's forefathers who in all probability would
                      have been true Orthodox believers should in any way be held responsible
                      for his present conduct. One should think twice before issuing such
                      harsh and hurtful statements. While certainly condemning those posters I
                      believe it is also fair to examine Philip Oomen's role and conduct as
                      well.

                      Ever since I joined this forum, Philip Oomen's messages arrived at
                      regular intervals extolling everyone to abandon time tested practices
                      and beliefs of our church in favour of Pentecostal/Evangelical type of
                      worship. Myself lacking sufficient knowledge in these matters didn't
                      respond to the messages. Nevertheless being a keen student I awaited
                      responses from Philip when a number of fellow list members sought
                      clarifications in matters Biblical, Theological and Historical,
                      especially Douglas Brandow, Ronnie Daniel, ES John and George S Thomas.
                      But to the best of my knowledge barring a few muted and incoherent
                      replies all queries were met with nothing but a deafening silence from
                      Philip's side. Even repeated reminders fell on deaf ears. But Philip
                      Oomen went on sending critical mails' dealing with a range of subjects
                      from liturgical practices to prayers recitation to intercession of
                      saints to..........the list is endless. In some instances Philip
                      (perhaps unknowingly) dropped his Orthodox mask thereby exposing to
                      everyone where his true allegiances lie.

                      At this point let me reiterate that I am no way objecting to Philip's
                      right to express what he feels is right. But in a discussion forum the
                      onus also lie with Philip to come out with satisfactory answers and
                      defend himself when fellow members seek clarification. Else his
                      monologues naturally become nothing but products churned out of a
                      propaganda machine thereby abusing this forum to further his agenda. Not
                      everyone make take kindly to such propaganda and some people may react
                      violently. This is precisely what happened here.

                      Philip Oomen is free to express his views, no one is stopping him.
                      However Philip is also responsible to answer related queries as well and
                      should not expect everyone to remain silent and accept his postings at
                      face value. Also some basic courtesy needs to be shown while posting on
                      an Orthodox forum, for instance veneration of Saints being a vital
                      teaching of Orthodox belief, no one how much ever opposed he is to that
                      practice should ridicule it. That is tantamount to insult and doing so
                      is certain to invite undesirable reactions. The freedom to post comes
                      with responsibilities. One may use it for debating and involving in
                      dialogue but not to propagate a hidden agenda.



                      + Prayers +


                      Cherian
                    • ronniedaniel1953
                      Excellent words Cherry. If Philip Oommen still wanted to continue with his posts, may god forgive him for his behaviour. rgds ronnie ... and ... would ...
                      Message 10 of 12 , May 9, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Excellent words Cherry.
                        If Philip Oommen still wanted to continue with his posts, may god
                        forgive him for his behaviour.

                        rgds
                        ronnie


                        --- In MalankaraOrthodoxSyrianChristian@yahoogroups.com, "Cherian,
                        Cherry" <C.Cherian@M...> wrote:
                        > Dear Jacob Mathew,
                        >
                        > Your concerns are genuine and certainly deserve merit. Some of the
                        > heated replies were highly uncalled for. I condemn the unfortunate
                        and
                        > reckless manner in which a couple of list members reacted and the
                        > statement "the graves of his forefathers should be opened and the
                        > decaying bones should be fed to the local stray dogs" crossed all
                        > limits. I wonder how Philip's forefathers who in all probability
                        would
                        > have been true Orthodox believers should in any way be held
                        responsible
                        > for his present conduct. One should think twice before issuing such
                        > harsh and hurtful statements. While certainly condemning those
                        posters I
                        > believe it is also fair to examine Philip Oomen's role and conduct
                        as
                        > well.
                        >
                        > Ever since I joined this forum, Philip Oomen's messages arrived at
                        > regular intervals extolling everyone to abandon time tested
                        practices
                        > and beliefs of our church in favour of Pentecostal/Evangelical
                        type of
                        > worship. Myself lacking sufficient knowledge in these matters
                        didn't
                        > respond to the messages. Nevertheless being a keen student I
                        awaited
                        > responses from Philip when a number of fellow list members sought
                        > clarifications in matters Biblical, Theological and Historical,
                        > especially Douglas Brandow, Ronnie Daniel, ES John and George S
                        Thomas.
                        > But to the best of my knowledge barring a few muted and incoherent
                        > replies all queries were met with nothing but a deafening silence
                        from
                        > Philip's side. Even repeated reminders fell on deaf ears. But
                        Philip
                        > Oomen went on sending critical mails' dealing with a range of
                        subjects
                        > from liturgical practices to prayers recitation to intercession of
                        > saints to..........the list is endless. In some instances Philip
                        > (perhaps unknowingly) dropped his Orthodox mask thereby exposing to
                        > everyone where his true allegiances lie.
                        >
                        > At this point let me reiterate that I am no way objecting to
                        Philip's
                        > right to express what he feels is right. But in a discussion forum
                        the
                        > onus also lie with Philip to come out with satisfactory answers and
                        > defend himself when fellow members seek clarification. Else his
                        > monologues naturally become nothing but products churned out of a
                        > propaganda machine thereby abusing this forum to further his
                        agenda. Not
                        > everyone make take kindly to such propaganda and some people may
                        react
                        > violently. This is precisely what happened here.
                        >
                        > Philip Oomen is free to express his views, no one is stopping him.
                        > However Philip is also responsible to answer related queries as
                        well and
                        > should not expect everyone to remain silent and accept his
                        postings at
                        > face value. Also some basic courtesy needs to be shown while
                        posting on
                        > an Orthodox forum, for instance veneration of Saints being a vital
                        > teaching of Orthodox belief, no one how much ever opposed he is to
                        that
                        > practice should ridicule it. That is tantamount to insult and
                        doing so
                        > is certain to invite undesirable reactions. The freedom to post
                        comes
                        > with responsibilities. One may use it for debating and involving in
                        > dialogue but not to propagate a hidden agenda.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > + Prayers +
                        >
                        >
                        > Cherian
                      • Jacob Mathew
                        I appreciate all the follow up emails and the explanations. Some general points of clarifications and my thoughts may be in order. Many people go to church
                        Message 11 of 12 , May 9, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I appreciate all the follow up emails and the explanations. Some general
                          points of clarifications
                          and my thoughts may be in order.

                          Many people go to church because they want "peace." Jesus Christ told us
                          that he is giving his
                          "peace" to us before he left this world. In our services, giving slomo
                          or peace is very
                          important. People who come to church may have worries and problems that
                          they want relief from. In
                          Kerala, if anyone goes to church, because of the in-fighting going on,
                          they don't feel they are
                          getting that peace promised by Jesus. When people quit the church and go
                          to other denominations,
                          it is because they think they may have a better chance of finding that
                          peace elsewhere. It is our
                          responsibility to create an environment in our churches so that people
                          who attend the service can meditate
                          silently and leave in "peace."

                          The same can be said about these web forums. Many people read the
                          emails because they want to get spiritual nourishment such as that
                          offered by our bishops, priests and laity in
                          this forum. Unfortunately after the name calling began we don't see any
                          posts from bishops and other
                          positive material. The people who read these may feel the same situation
                          they feel when they
                          attend a service in Kerala with the constant in-fighting and name
                          calling. So, let us debate the
                          issues sensibly. Let us learn from the debates. Let us use these debates
                          as a way of growing in
                          Christian life. If Philip does not want to respond, we cannot force him
                          and we should leave it at
                          that. I do not think that we need to answer every point raised by him.
                          But like Cherry aptly
                          pointed out, let us not stoop down and abuse his ancestors.

                          I do not think our faith is so shallow that a person can post something
                          in an email and that will
                          cause mass exodus from our church. I sincerely believe that God has a
                          plan for everything and He
                          knows why He is subjecting us to this. Another way of looking at this is
                          that we do not develop
                          the necessary strength unless we meet obstacles. (Like our muscles
                          develop when we undergo
                          resistance training, we develop spiritual maturity when our faith is
                          tested.) May be God is using
                          Philip to test our faith and resolve; to see how deep our faith and
                          belief is. So, let us take
                          this as a positive experience.

                          Even Jesus Christ was tempted and tested by Satan when he came out of
                          the 40 day fast. And we can
                          all learn from how Jesus handled it. Similarly, when they brought the
                          prostitute in front of him, He
                          did not lash out at them knowing very well that they are testing Him.
                          Instead, he kept quiet.
                          Sometimes keeping quiet may be the right thing to do. Let us not always
                          dignify every remarks
                          with an answer.

                          In this connection, I have a question. Why does God tolerate Satan in
                          this world? We know that
                          God can destroy Satan in a moment if He wants to. Why is he not doing
                          it? Is God allowing Satan
                          to tempt us and to run us through hardships to strengthen us in the
                          process? If we know that, how
                          are we going to respond? Like Job? Remember, God even tested Abraham.
                          So, God decided that Satan
                          has a role in this world. I would like your opinion on this.

                          Like I said, I know that God has a plan for everything and He always
                          does something for the ultimate good of us.
                          It is upto us to recognize it and to behave appropriately when we face
                          them.
                          ("Lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from the evil one.")

                          Jacob, Hudson, Ohio
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.