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RE: don't count on anyone putting out a call

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  • n9aop2000
    I found that I have to fish where the psk folks are ie. 14.070.15. Getting someone to go to MT63 is not as easy as having them switch to hellschreiber or MFSK
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 2, 2009
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      I found that I have to fish where the psk folks are ie. 14.070.15.
      Getting someone to go to MT63 is not as easy as having them switch to
      hellschreiber or MFSK and I don't know why that should be.

      At any rate, MT63; Olivia and MFSK are very alive and well on the MARS
      bands.
      Art
    • Craig Wallen
      I have been fairly active on 80m mt63 here lately with pretty good results, if you like a sked let me now on the 80m band .. but, for some reason I am having a
      Message 2 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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        I have been fairly active on 80m mt63 here lately with pretty good results, if you like a sked let me now on the 80m band .. but, for some reason I am having a hard time decoding a few stations and I can not put my finger on why I can't but, 98% of the stations I decode fine . usually 500hz wide /short

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Cliff Manis
          Rick and all   I like to do MT63 anytime, and will be looking for a contact from time to time on 40 or 20 meters.   Yes, I agree - the USAF MARS nets are
        Message 3 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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          Rick and all
           
          I like to do MT63 anytime, and will be looking for a contact from time to time on 40 or 20 meters.
           
          Yes, I agree - the USAF MARS nets are using MT63 with great results.
           
          Cliff   KZ5JO / AFA6BC
           


          --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Craig Wallen <kf4hou@...> wrote:

          From: Craig Wallen <kf4hou@...>
          Subject: [MT63] Re: don't count on anyone putting out a call
          To: MT63@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 9:33 AM






          I have been fairly active on 80m mt63 here lately with pretty good results, if you like a sked let me now on the 80m band .. but, for some reason I am having a hard time decoding a few stations and I can not put my finger on why I can't but, 98% of the stations I decode fine . usually 500hz wide /short

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • list2
          Hi Craig and All, This brings up an interesting phenomenon that I discovered while working with MT63 for MARS. From what I understand MT63 was designed to
          Message 4 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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            Hi Craig and All,
            This brings up an interesting phenomenon that I discovered while working
            with MT63 for MARS. From what I understand MT63 was designed to always
            start at 500 Hz audio. I believe most Digital programs including HRD DM780
            (my favorite) do not have any flexibility in this. TX Army MARS has decided
            to transmit 1000 Hz wide MT63 starting at 1000 Hz audio instead of 500 Hz.
            MixW allows this. However, if you don't have MixW, you may not be able to
            copy this kind of MT63 Transmission. I'm still trying to figure this one
            out. For TX Army MARS it forces one to always use MixW.

            Steve, W2MY, AAR6CX

            -----Original Message-----
            From: MT63@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MT63@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Craig
            Wallen

            Subject: [MT63] Re: don't count on anyone putting out a call


            I have been fairly active on 80m mt63 here lately with pretty good results,
            if you like a sked let me now on the 80m band .. but, for some reason I am
            having a hard time decoding a few stations and I can not put my finger on
            why I can't but, 98% of the stations I decode fine . usually 500hz wide
            /short
          • Simon (HB9DRV)
            Just offset the radio by x Hz. I will look at this in the future, but these MARS guys are going against the MT63 proposal from the guy who invented it. Simon
            Message 5 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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              Just offset the radio by x Hz. I will look at this in the future, but these
              MARS guys are going against the MT63 proposal from the guy who invented it.

              Simon Brown, HB9DRV
              www.ham-radio-deluxe.com

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "list2" <list2@...>


              > Hi Craig and All,
              > This brings up an interesting phenomenon that I discovered while working
              > with MT63 for MARS. From what I understand MT63 was designed to always
              > start at 500 Hz audio. I believe most Digital programs including HRD
              > DM780
              > (my favorite) do not have any flexibility in this. TX Army MARS has
              > decided
              > to transmit 1000 Hz wide MT63 starting at 1000 Hz audio instead of 500 Hz.
              > MixW allows this. However, if you don't have MixW, you may not be able to
              > copy this kind of MT63 Transmission. I'm still trying to figure this one
              > out. For TX Army MARS it forces one to always use MixW.
              >
            • David Kleber
              Craig, I think I watched your qso for about 45 minutes the other night from here in Pittsburgh, PA. 100% copy on both stations here. I ve never used .5k
              Message 6 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                Craig,

                I think I watched your qso for about 45 minutes the other night from
                here in Pittsburgh, PA. 100% copy on both stations here.

                I've never used .5k before but I was quite impressed with the copy.
                Either you or the other station (I can't remember which) was pretty
                weak, but I had 100% throughout.

                -Dave, KB3FXI

                --- In MT63@yahoogroups.com, "Craig Wallen" <kf4hou@...> wrote:
                >
                > I have been fairly active on 80m mt63 here lately with pretty good
                results, if you like a sked let me now on the 80m band .. but, for
                some reason I am having a hard time decoding a few stations and I can
                not put my finger on why I can't but, 98% of the stations I decode
                fine . usually 500hz wide /short
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • David Kleber
                Steve, I was of the understanding that the standard was 500 Hz at the bottom of the signal, too. But can t you simply put your rig in fine VFO tune and move
                Message 7 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                  Steve,

                  I was of the understanding that the standard was 500 Hz at the bottom
                  of the signal, too.

                  But can't you simply put your rig in fine VFO tune and move the
                  received signal to 500 Hz bottom? I would think you should still get
                  100% copy even if the sending station is transmitting 1k bottom. All
                  that should change is your dial frequency.

                  In our testing here in Western PA, we use a procedure where the first
                  station sends a 1000 Hz marker tone that all other stations tune to
                  with their VFO. Assuming all stations have done proper sound card
                  calibrations, this puts us all on the same page. Also, the very
                  narrow 1000 Hz tuning tone is much easier to see on the waterfall. We
                  use MT63 1k long as our standard and as you probably know, the
                  signature on the waterfall from a weak station can sometimes be very
                  light. Our tuning procedure has really helped take some of the
                  frustration out of the mode, especially for our less experienced members.

                  It's good to see folks using video and RSID to help identify MT63 to
                  those who may not know what mode they're seeing/hearing. Once you
                  bring them on board, they won't soon forget!

                  -Dave, KB3FXI


                  --- In MT63@yahoogroups.com, "list2" <list2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Craig and All,
                  > This brings up an interesting phenomenon that I discovered while working
                  > with MT63 for MARS. From what I understand MT63 was designed to always
                  > start at 500 Hz audio. I believe most Digital programs including
                  HRD DM780
                  > (my favorite) do not have any flexibility in this. TX Army MARS has
                  decided
                  > to transmit 1000 Hz wide MT63 starting at 1000 Hz audio instead of
                  500 Hz.
                  > MixW allows this. However, if you don't have MixW, you may not be
                  able to
                  > copy this kind of MT63 Transmission. I'm still trying to figure
                  this one
                  > out. For TX Army MARS it forces one to always use MixW.
                  >
                  > Steve, W2MY, AAR6CX
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: MT63@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MT63@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                  Craig
                  > Wallen
                  >
                  > Subject: [MT63] Re: don't count on anyone putting out a call
                  >
                  >
                  > I have been fairly active on 80m mt63 here lately with pretty good
                  results,
                  > if you like a sked let me now on the 80m band .. but, for some
                  reason I am
                  > having a hard time decoding a few stations and I can not put my
                  finger on
                  > why I can't but, 98% of the stations I decode fine . usually 500hz wide
                  > /short
                  >
                • list2
                  Hi Dave, The problem is that during Hurricane Ike, Texas Army MARS demonstrated that mixed mode operation was more efficient than either an all MT63 net, or an
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                    Hi Dave,
                    The problem is that during Hurricane Ike, Texas Army MARS demonstrated that
                    mixed mode operation was more efficient than either an all MT63 net, or an
                    all voice net. Checking in and regular business is done in USB but when a
                    message is sent, it is sent in MT63 on the voice frequency starting at 1000
                    Hz audio. The shift between voice and MT63 is immediate. If they send it
                    on the voice frequency starting at 1000 Hz audio, I need to tune my
                    receiver down 500 Hz to actually print it on the screen. Once the message
                    is sent they immediately go back to voice mode. But I need to tune up 500
                    Hz to listen to USB again. I end up missing the first part of the message
                    and the first part of the voice transmission immediately after the MT63
                    traffic. I thought of making two macros to do the shifting in DM780 but I
                    haven't figured that out completely yet. I could also program VFO B 500 Hz
                    lower. I do wish MARS kept to the MT63 standard. I don't think it would
                    hurt their operations at all.

                    Steve, W2MY, AAR6CX

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: MT63@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MT63@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David
                    Kleber
                    Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 7:32 PM
                    To: MT63@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [MT63] Tuning/Audio Frequency


                    Steve,

                    I was of the understanding that the standard was 500 Hz at the bottom
                    of the signal, too.

                    But can't you simply put your rig in fine VFO tune and move the
                    received signal to 500 Hz bottom? I would think you should still get
                    100% copy even if the sending station is transmitting 1k bottom. All
                    that should change is your dial frequency.

                    In our testing here in Western PA, we use a procedure where the first
                    station sends a 1000 Hz marker tone that all other stations tune to
                    with their VFO. Assuming all stations have done proper sound card
                    calibrations, this puts us all on the same page. Also, the very
                    narrow 1000 Hz tuning tone is much easier to see on the waterfall. We
                    use MT63 1k long as our standard and as you probably know, the
                    signature on the waterfall from a weak station can sometimes be very
                    light. Our tuning procedure has really helped take some of the
                    frustration out of the mode, especially for our less experienced members.

                    It's good to see folks using video and RSID to help identify MT63 to
                    those who may not know what mode they're seeing/hearing. Once you
                    bring them on board, they won't soon forget!

                    -Dave, KB3FXI
                  • David Kleber
                    Very interesting, Steve. Which brings up another subject, hence the change in the subject line. I really wish we (Amateur Service) would move to regs by
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                      Very interesting, Steve.

                      Which brings up another subject, hence the change in the subject line.

                      I really wish we (Amateur Service) would move to regs by bandwidth
                      rather than mode. And there's nothing to say that there couldn't be
                      gentelmens agreements on where you could do this, but wouldn't it be
                      great if we could mix phone and MT63 on the same HF freqs?

                      -Dave, KB3FXI

                      --- In MT63@yahoogroups.com, "list2" <list2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Dave,
                      > The problem is that during Hurricane Ike, Texas Army MARS
                      demonstrated that
                      > mixed mode operation was more efficient than either an all MT63 net,
                      or an
                      > all voice net. Checking in and regular business is done in USB but
                      when a
                      > message is sent, it is sent in MT63 on the voice frequency starting
                      at 1000
                      > Hz audio. The shift between voice and MT63 is immediate. If they
                      send it
                      > on the voice frequency starting at 1000 Hz audio, I need to tune my
                      > receiver down 500 Hz to actually print it on the screen. Once the
                      message
                      > is sent they immediately go back to voice mode. But I need to tune
                      up 500
                      > Hz to listen to USB again. I end up missing the first part of the
                      message
                      > and the first part of the voice transmission immediately after the MT63
                      > traffic. I thought of making two macros to do the shifting in DM780
                      but I
                      > haven't figured that out completely yet. I could also program VFO B
                      500 Hz
                      > lower. I do wish MARS kept to the MT63 standard. I don't think it
                      would
                      > hurt their operations at all.
                      >
                      > Steve, W2MY, AAR6CX
                      >
                    • Jim Haynes
                      However I guess if they were using 2KHz MT63 rather than 1KHz then you would again want the MT63 to start at 500 Hz and end at 2500 Hz, rather than starting at
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                        However I guess if they were using 2KHz MT63 rather than 1KHz
                        then you would again want the MT63 to start at 500 Hz and end
                        at 2500 Hz, rather than starting at 1 KHz and ending at 3 KHz.
                        Even that might be too high, depending on the filters in the radio.

                        Jim W6JVE



                        jhhaynes at earthlink dot net
                      • David Little
                        This is the reason for the 500 HZ start freq; especially on NTIA freqs which are channelized. It is hard to move from the concept of center of intelligence ,
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 3, 2009
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                          This is the reason for the 500 HZ start freq; especially on NTIA freqs
                          which are channelized.

                          It is hard to move from the concept of "center of intelligence", to a
                          start frequency that allows the full potential of the mode to be
                          utilized, but you have echoed the thought process as to the reason some
                          of these "standards" were created.

                          David
                          KD4NUE



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: MT63@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MT63@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Jim Haynes
                          Sent: Saturday, January 03, 2009 10:14 PM
                          To: David Kleber
                          Cc: MT63@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [MT63] Mixed Mode Transmissions



                          However I guess if they were using 2KHz MT63 rather than 1KHz
                          then you would again want the MT63 to start at 500 Hz and end
                          at 2500 Hz, rather than starting at 1 KHz and ending at 3 KHz.
                          Even that might be too high, depending on the filters in the radio.

                          Jim W6JVE

                          jhhaynes at earthlink dot net







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • list2
                          Hi Dave and all, Thanks for the change in subject line. Yes, well I guess the ARRL assumed that it was such a good idea that they did not need to work on grass
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 4, 2009
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                            Hi Dave and all,
                            Thanks for the change in subject line.

                            Yes, well I guess the ARRL assumed that it was such a good idea that they
                            did not need to work on grass roots support of it by the membership. The
                            opposition to their regulation by bandwidth proposal was so intense that
                            they dropped it like a hot potato.

                            I do see operating digital and SSB on the same frequency to be a great
                            advantage for MARS. I guess hams sort of do this on 20 meters with SSTV.
                            In fact it seems to be one of the big differences in operating between
                            ARES/RACES and MARS at least here in Texas. The other difference is the
                            training on actual operations required down here for MARS. I did not feel
                            qualified to use HF in an emergency until I started doing NCS duties for
                            Army MARS. No training is really required for ARES/RACES although I know a
                            few people in both of these groups who are very good. But for the general
                            membership of these groups you just need a ham license.

                            I would think that with the general push toward using ham radio as an
                            alternate means of communication for many institutions, that either the FCC
                            would mandate the use of digital/voice operations on the same frequency (or
                            at least during emergencies), or the FCC would get a bunch of proposals by
                            hams to permit it to a limited extent.

                            I think that most hams don't realize how good combined digital/voice works.
                            I don't think MARS realized it down here until after we actually used it in
                            some emergencies and it worked out so well.

                            Just a note for comparison on efficiency. During all MT63 nets (or any
                            digital net is concerned), it is very difficult for me to check in without
                            QRMing everyone else. With a voice check-in, after giving the call of the
                            NCS, you drop the mic and listen to see if anyone else is checking in. This
                            prevents doubles most of the time. I have not figured out a way to do this
                            on MT63, especially with the delay in transmission associated with MT63.
                            That's why checking in with voice and the sending traffic in MT63 is the
                            best of both worlds.

                            Steve, W2MY



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: MT63@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MT63@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David
                            Kleber
                            Subject: [MT63] Mixed Mode Transmissions


                            Very interesting, Steve.

                            Which brings up another subject, hence the change in the subject line.

                            I really wish we (Amateur Service) would move to regs by bandwidth
                            rather than mode. And there's nothing to say that there couldn't be
                            gentelmens agreements on where you could do this, but wouldn't it be
                            great if we could mix phone and MT63 on the same HF freqs?

                            -Dave, KB3FXI
                          • Craig Wallen
                            Something I have learned is it is almost essential to have your TX frequencies locked , so you can have the ability to move around the RX in MT63. There are a
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 4, 2009
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                              Something I have learned is it is almost essential to have your TX frequencies locked , so you can have the ability to move around the RX in MT63. There are a lot of stations not lined up good or do not have a good calibration done on there sound card.

                              I can't remember what the leeway is on being off frequency , but it seems to be pretty tight at least in mixw .

                              I am usually around the 1200hz area of the pass band or so. If I am near the 500hz area on the low side , I am fairly close to my filter and also my EQ setting on my soundcard, I get slightly less audio drive there.

                              yea 500hz BW will have better signal to noise ratio , but makes it a bit less robust due to propagation effects, but it is not by a whole lot at all. It is a Good trade off on the lower bands.

                              I think it would be neat to have a sked with some one in western EU to try a contact on 80m with mt63, not sure if that has done yet or not. If any one in western EU would like to attempt this email me.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Paul L Schmidt, K9PS
                              Indiana Navy-Marine Corps MARS uses 2 kHz 95+% of the time; only dropping down to 1 kHz if conditions are extremely bad (High QRN, etc.). Of course, when
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 5, 2009
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                                Indiana Navy-Marine Corps MARS uses 2 kHz 95+% of the time;
                                only dropping down to 1 kHz if conditions are extremely bad
                                (High QRN, etc.). Of course, when conditions are that bad,
                                SSB probably isn't working well either.

                                Even if the filters whack the tones on the edges (e.g. a 1.8
                                or 2.1 kHz filter), they're not far enough down on the skirts
                                to present a real problem, and MT63 has a LOT of redundancy
                                built in to compensate.

                                Uncalibrated or improperly calibrated sound cards cause a lot
                                more trouble than filters :(

                                It'd be awfully nice to be able to do mixed-mode on the ARES
                                and RACES HF nets... too bad they threw the baby out with the
                                bathwater on the regulation-by-bandwidth proposal a while
                                back.

                                73,

                                - ps


                                Jim Haynes wrote:
                                > However I guess if they were using 2KHz MT63 rather than 1KHz
                                > then you would again want the MT63 to start at 500 Hz and end
                                > at 2500 Hz, rather than starting at 1 KHz and ending at 3 KHz.
                                > Even that might be too high, depending on the filters in the radio.
                                >
                                > Jim W6JVE
                                >
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