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MT63 and Olivia

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  • Greenman Family
    A couple of points.... First, Pawel Jalocha SP9VRC designed both MT63 and Olivia. The reason you won t have worked him is that he does not operate on HF. Nino
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 1, 2005
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      A couple of points....

      First, Pawel Jalocha SP9VRC designed both MT63 and Olivia. The reason
      you won't have worked him is that he does not operate on HF. Nino IZ8BLY
      wrote the first MT63 program for Windows, based on Pawel's LINUX design.

      I'm not sure why all the fuss about Olivia (although I recognise myself
      the fun of exploring new modes). It's very slow, and not as robust as is
      promised, and of course it's also very wide. In my opinion MT63 is a
      better wide mode, although it has other problems. I've done some work
      with CHIP64 as well, but still prefer MT63.

      If you want a really good DX mode, and want to operate MFSK, you should
      for now be sticking with MFSK16. Yes, I know it's hard to tune...

      I'm hoping within the next month or so to release a new MFSK modem
      design which does fulfil all the promises - fast, slick, robust,
      narrow-band, sensitive, easy to tune and drift tolerant. It has been
      purpose-designed for NVIS conditions, but has the potential to be good
      on the DX bands as well. Keep an eye on the MFSK reflector for news!

      73,

      Murray ZL1BPU
    • Vyacheslav-RW3AA
      Hello Greenman, Sunday, October 2, 2005, 1:47:59 AM, you wrote: GF I m not sure why all the fuss about Olivia (although I recognise myself GF the fun of
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Hello Greenman,

        Sunday, October 2, 2005, 1:47:59 AM, you wrote:


        GF> I'm not sure why all the fuss about Olivia (although I recognise myself
        GF> the fun of exploring new modes). It's very slow, and not as robust as is
        GF> promised, and of course it's also very wide. In my opinion MT63 is a
        GF> better wide mode, although it has other problems. I've done some work
        GF> with CHIP64 as well, but still prefer MT63.

        I fall in your opinion and prefer MT63 too.

        GF> If you want a really good DX mode, and want to operate MFSK, you should
        GF> for now be sticking with MFSK16. Yes, I know it's hard to tune...

        You are a little wrong.
        Use CTRL+left/rigt arrows for tuning MFSK and
        ALT+left/right arrows for fine tuning in MixW program.

        GF> I'm hoping within the next month or so to release a new MFSK modem
        GF> design which does fulfil all the promises - fast, slick, robust,
        GF> narrow-band, sensitive, easy to tune and drift tolerant. It has been
        GF> purpose-designed for NVIS conditions, but has the potential to be good
        GF> on the DX bands as well. Keep an eye on the MFSK reflector for news!

        Good news! Thank you, Murray!

        GF> Murray ZL1BPU



        --
        Best regards, http://rw3aa.msk.ru Digi QSO Club - http://dqso.net
        Vyacheslav-RW3AA mailto:rw3aa@...

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tomi Manninen
        ... Hmm.. Is it, really? I m wondering as ever since I got the first version of gMFSK working (and the first version only had MFSK16), my opinion has been that
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 1, 2005
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          On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 00:47, Greenman Family wrote:

          > If you want a really good DX mode, and want to operate MFSK, you should
          > for now be sticking with MFSK16. Yes, I know it's hard to tune...

          Hmm.. Is it, really? I'm wondering as ever since I got the first
          version of gMFSK working (and the first version only had MFSK16),
          my opinion has been that tuning MFSK16 is no problem. Just click
          and it's there. I have not really tried MFSK16 with other software
          but somehow I doubt that the GUI design in other software would be
          so bad that it made any difference.

          Do people actually complain about MFSK16 being difficult to tune
          in to? Is there really a need to make it simpler? I have thought
          about running several decoders in parallel like Pawel does with
          MT63 and Olivia but I have trouble justifying the work needed...

          --
          Tomi Manninen / OH2BNS / KP20JF74
        • Mark Miller
          ... I think some of the advantages of Olivia are: 1. No crest factor issues with Olivia. 2. Transmitters do not have to be linear 4. Variable Bandwidths 4.
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 5, 2005
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            At 04:47 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote:
            >I'm not sure why all the fuss about Olivia (although I recognise myself
            >the fun of exploring new modes). It's very slow, and not as robust as is
            >promised, and of course it's also very wide. In my opinion MT63 is a
            >better wide mode, although it has other problems. I've done some work
            >with CHIP64 as well, but still prefer MT63.


            I think some of the advantages of Olivia are:

            1. No crest factor issues with Olivia.
            2. Transmitters do not have to be linear
            4. Variable Bandwidths
            4. Variable Baud Rates
            5. Variable Interleaving Depths

            I agree that MFSK16 has many of these same advantages, but not as many
            permutations. I sometimes think items 3 through 5 may be a disadvantage
            because for some too many options are a deterrent. This is the same
            physiology that says that MFSK16 is hard to tune. Its all relative. MT63
            is an excellent mode and the real test for Oliva and Chip64/128 will be how
            they do over very longs paths with ionospheric anomalies. We may have to
            wait on a more favorable portion of the sun spot cycle to make the
            comparisons. As far as weak signal work is concerned, it is hard to beat
            MFSK16.

            73,

            Mark N5RFX
          • Chris Gerber
            Hi Mark I started using Olivia beginning of last December with Pawels original program. Before we used over the last 6 to 7 years at 14109.5 Khz MT63 which we
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 5, 2005
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              Hi Mark

              I started using Olivia beginning of last December with Pawels original
              program.
              Before we used over the last 6 to 7 years at 14109.5 Khz MT63 which we
              like very much.
              I had so many DX qso's with Les VK2DSG or with other VK,ZL,3D2 or JA
              stations, on both modes
              MT63 later Olivia.
              When the sunspot activity dropped, it was getting tough with MT63, but
              must say when MT63 failed,
              we could go to MFSK16which was still ok. But then when Pawel gave us
              Olivia, we have been able to qso
              with error free transmissions, we could hardly believe such is possible.
              No audio, no waterfall, just a
              a fixed center frequency of 1000Hz, but perfect print, no matter if the
              signal was 250Hz away from the
              centerfrequency of 1000Hz. The program showed how much offset it was.
              This was and is most important
              when you cant hear any audio signal, but print is there. So happend many
              times.
              I had qso all over the globe. Am using only a 6 meter long vertical,
              never had any problems at all with Olivia,
              all other modes you can forget, no matter what others are saying.
              For myself Olivia is real good, yes its wide, its slow, but it gives us
              a way to contact each other on weak
              and very noisy qrg's not matter if Pactor or other qrm is present. I try
              it with MFSK16 or other modes,
              no chance.
              Regarding Chip_64, a good mode easy to tune, faster then Olivia,
              comparable to MFSK16 but not that senitive.
              Last year we did a lot of testing on it, it worked well from from EU to ZL.

              Chris HB9BDM

              Mark Miller schrieb:

              > At 04:47 PM 10/1/2005, you wrote:eve
              > >I'm not sure why all the fuss about Olivia (although I recognise myself
              > >the fun of exploring new modes). It's very slow, and not as robust as is
              > >promised, and of course it's also very wide. In my opinion MT63 is a
              > >better wide mode, although it has other problems. I've done some work
              > >with CHIP64 as well, but still prefer MT63.
              >
              >
              > I think some of the advantages of Olivia are:
              >
              > 1. No crest factor issues with Olivia.
              > 2. Transmitters do not have to be linear
              > 4. Variable Bandwidths
              > 4. Variable Baud Rates
              > 5. Variable Interleaving Depths
              >
              > I agree that MFSK16 has many of these same advantages, but not as many
              > permutations. I sometimes think items 3 through 5 may be a disadvantage
              > because for some too many options are a deterrent. This is the same
              > physiology that says that MFSK16 is hard to tune. Its all relative.
              > MT63
              > is an excellent mode and the real test for Oliva and Chip64/128 will
              > be how
              > they do over very longs paths with ionospheric anomalies. We may have to
              > wait on a more favorable portion of the sun spot cycle to make the
              > comparisons. As far as weak signal work is concerned, it is hard to beat
              > MFSK16.
              >
              > 73,
              >
              > Mark N5RFX
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Tomi Manninen
              ... Hmm... Olivia is not constant envelope. So the above is not really true. No comments otherwise. Just wanted to set the facts straight. -- Tomi Manninen /
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 5, 2005
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                On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 16:30, Mark Miller wrote:

                > I think some of the advantages of Olivia are:
                >
                > 1. No crest factor issues with Olivia.
                > 2. Transmitters do not have to be linear

                Hmm... Olivia is not constant envelope. So the above is not
                really true.

                No comments otherwise. Just wanted to set the facts straight.

                --
                Tomi Manninen / OH2BNS / KP20JF74
              • Bob3 Bob3
                Mainly for Tomi... I have just built gmfsk-0.7pre1 on a SuSE 9.1 prof platform Appears to be working fine but I havent exactly flogged it. Help doesnt work but
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 5, 2005
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                  Mainly for Tomi...

                  I have just built gmfsk-0.7pre1 on a SuSE 9.1 prof platform

                  Appears to be working fine but I havent exactly flogged it.

                  Help doesnt work but I am pretty sure that is a Gnome config problem in
                  my environment. Something about error launching the default action.

                  Wondering if you want any feedback on operation etc. Are you expecting
                  that this pre version has some issues?

                  Only used it on PSK31, Olivia and MT63 briefly. Seem to have probs with
                  MT63. Perhaps I am expecting too much from a noisy signal. I have a lot
                  of pulse QRM here and wonder whether the radio NB causes enough of a
                  problem to the audio to affect decoding. I saw Karl K5DI on MT63 for a
                  while today.

                  Had an Olivia contact (boo hiss) with a station in Michigan today. Had
                  reversed my brain in setting the ALC/PWR metering button and was only
                  running about 800mW. His sigs (60W) were about S5 - an S point above the
                  noise. He had no trouble resolving my sig although I dont know what the
                  S/N was at his end. Not a scientific meaasurement but I thought worth
                  mentioning.

                  I can only operate on 20M and my antenna is oriented for NE/SW use.
                  (single quad loop) I tend to leave MT63 running on RX 14.1095. I am not
                  employed for a few weeks so tend to be around during the day - if anyone
                  wants to try.

                  Cheers Bob W5/VK2YQA East Texas.
                • Mark Miller
                  ... Tomi, I have to agree I should not have made those two statements so black and white. My advantages where when Olivia is compared to MT63. I am using
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 5, 2005
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                    At 03:42 PM 10/5/2005, you wrote:
                    >On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 16:30, Mark Miller wrote:
                    >
                    > > I think some of the advantages of Olivia are:
                    > >
                    > > 1. No crest factor issues with Olivia.
                    > > 2. Transmitters do not have to be linear
                    >
                    >Hmm... Olivia is not constant envelope. So the above is not
                    >really true.
                    >
                    >No comments otherwise. Just wanted to set the facts straight.
                    >
                    >--
                    >Tomi Manninen / OH2BNS / KP20JF74

                    Tomi,

                    I have to agree I should not have made those two statements so black and
                    white. My advantages where when Olivia is compared to MT63. I am using
                    MixW and measured the pep to average ratio of MT63 at nearly 10dB which is
                    a crest factor of nearly 13 dB I measured Olivia with a pep to average
                    ratio of nearly 2 dB which is nearly a 5 dB crest factor. The MFSK16 pep
                    to average ratio was nearly 0 for a crest factor of 3dB. So there is an
                    advantage with Olivia when it comes to crest factor over MT63. My 746 pro
                    is linear up to nearly 50 watts. So with MT63 I must keep my average power
                    at 5 watts, so I don't clip. With Olivia I can run an average power of
                    around 30 watts and be ok. Of course with MFSK16 I can run nearly full
                    power. When comparing Olivia with MT63, my transmitter can be less linear
                    and achieve the same average power. BTW I measured the pep to average
                    ratio of Chip 64 at 2.5 dB (5.5dB crest factor).

                    It becomes very apparent how critical the sound card audio adjustments are
                    when doing these tests. I am looping back the audio from the Creative MP3+
                    soundcard input to output and by adjusting the audio levels I can move the
                    crest factor number around rather significantly. Adding a transmitter to
                    the mix causes the crest factor numbers for MT63 to go down about 3 or so
                    dB, which indicates I have additional distortion in that part of the chain.

                    I think all modes have their place and have their advantages under certain
                    conditions. Time will tell where Olivia will fit into the sound card mode
                    toolbox.


                    73,

                    Mark N5RFX
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