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Re: [MT63] Use our senses

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  • John Bradley
    Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well, weekend ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they can
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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      Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well, weekend
      ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they
      can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service" to
      the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
      technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is this
      wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40 years
      of age?

      Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in touch
      while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become licensed just
      to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed to
      use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
      Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were so,
      then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
      public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to perform
      this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.

      There are some of us who are not in the hobby to enjoy the sweet smell of
      rosin core solder with our coffee..........

      John
      VE5MU



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Hamish Moffatt <hamish@...>
      To: MT63 Group <MT63@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:00 PM
      Subject: Re: [MT63] Use our senses


      >
      > On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 11:02:31AM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
      > > AMTOR QSOs, all of us using our trusty PK232 or KAM TNC's . Winlink did
      > > provide a service then , and still does ,
      > > especially to those of us who are involved in emergency communications,
      and
      > > who need email access from a remote location ,
      > > or when the local internet service is down. Most of us are still using
      these
      > > modems for Winlink today.
      >
      > I think that's the crux of the problem - Winlink shouldn't be providing
      > a *service* on the ham bands.
      >
      > From what I read in QST, weekend ham license courses are being run
      > specifically so that boat owners can get licensed and use Winlink.
      > Those operators should use a commercial service on commercial HF
      > frequencies or satellite.
      >
      >
      > Hamish
      > --
      > Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@...> <hamish@...>
      >
      >
      >
      > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
      >
      > - The MT63 Reflector -
      > MT63@egroups.com
      >
      > (To unsubscribe. send email to
      > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
      > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05
      >
      >
    • Paul L Schmidt
      If there s a problem with inappropriate third party traffic (under the U.S. regs, this could be because of business content, language, lack of a required
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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        If there's a problem with inappropriate third party traffic (under the U.S.
        regs, this could be because of business content, language, lack of a required
        control operator at a control point [no automatic control during when 3rd
        party communication is going on], etc.), a little proof to the FCC should
        get the abuse taken care of. The same should happen for other types
        of infractions.

        As long as they're staying within the regulations, what makes boaters
        any different than a guy's XYL getting a ticket, or offering courses
        for Red Cross people, or any of a number of other groups of people
        who might obtain licenses?

        (not supporting the Winlink movement in any way -- just trying to refine
        what the objections are...)

        73,

        -ps

        Hamish Moffatt wrote:
        > From what I read in QST, weekend ham license courses are being run
        > specifically so that boat owners can get licensed and use Winlink.
        > Those operators should use a commercial service on commercial HF
        > frequencies or satellite.
        >
        >
        > Hamish
      • John Bradley
        Old timer or not we all have EQUAL rights to use these frequencies not more, not less, but equal, which also means that these frequencies cannot be set aside
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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          Old timer or not we all have EQUAL rights to use these frequencies not more,
          not less, but equal, which also means that these frequencies cannot be set
          aside for private use.

          And as far as being "taught" respect, that doesn't work. You have to EARN
          repect through helping younger and/or new hams get started, rather than
          living back in the spark-gap days.................

          John
          VE5MU

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Steve Friis <wm5z@...>
          To: John Bradley <jbradley@...>
          Cc: Hamish Moffatt <hamish@...>; MT63 Group <MT63@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:34 PM
          Subject: Re: [MT63] Use our senses


          > I welcome the new hams, and especially those with purpose. My only
          > concern is that these new wannabee's and hams haven't been taught to
          > respect us "old timers" (if you will) who also have earned the right to
          > use these same frequencies. This is every bit a resource as a highway or
          > a camp ground or a waterway.
          >
          > What would be wrong to say that no station should be un-manned? Can't
          > these guys provide an operator? Are they setting up a base-station just
          > so they can get on the internet when they aren't home? This is not ham
          > radio as I see it defined in the international agreements. Sho me where
          > they have the right to comondere a frequency for their private use.
          >
          > Steve/WM5Z
          >
          >
          >
          > John Bradley wrote:
          >
          > > Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well,
          > > weekend
          > > ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that
          they
          > > can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service"
          to
          > > the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
          > > technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is
          > > this
          > > wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40
          > > years
          > > of age?
          > >
          > > Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in
          touch
          > > while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become
          > > licensed just
          > > to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed
          to
          > > use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
          > > Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were
          so,
          > > then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
          > > public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to
          perform
          > > this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
          > >
          > > There are some of us who are not in the hobby to enjoy the sweet smell
          of
          > > rosin core solder with our coffee..........
          > >
          > > John
          > > VE5MU
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Hamish Moffatt <hamish@...>
          > > To: MT63 Group <MT63@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:00 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [MT63] Use our senses
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 11:02:31AM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
          > > > > AMTOR QSOs, all of us using our trusty PK232 or KAM TNC's .
          > > Winlink did
          > > > > provide a service then , and still does ,
          > > > > especially to those of us who are involved in emergency
          > > communications,
          > > and
          > > > > who need email access from a remote location ,
          > > > > or when the local internet service is down. Most of us are still
          using
          > > these
          > > > > modems for Winlink today.
          > > >
          > > > I think that's the crux of the problem - Winlink shouldn't be
          providing
          > > > a *service* on the ham bands.
          > > >
          > > > From what I read in QST, weekend ham license courses are being run
          > > > specifically so that boat owners can get licensed and use Winlink.
          > > > Those operators should use a commercial service on commercial HF
          > > > frequencies or satellite.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Hamish
          > > > --
          > > > Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@...> <hamish@...>
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
          > > >
          > > > - The MT63 Reflector -
          > > > MT63@egroups.com
          > > >
          > > > (To unsubscribe. send email to
          > > > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --
          > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          > > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
          > >
          > > - The MT63 Reflector -
          > > MT63@egroups.com
          > >
          > > (To unsubscribe. send email to
          > > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
          > >
          > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MT63/
          > >
          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          > >
          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > --
          > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05
          >
          >
        • Steve Friis
          I welcome the new hams, and especially those with purpose. My only concern is that these new wannabee s and hams haven t been taught to respect us old timers
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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            I welcome the new hams, and especially those with purpose. My only
            concern is that these new wannabee's and hams haven't been taught to
            respect us "old timers" (if you will) who also have earned the right to
            use these same frequencies. This is every bit a resource as a highway or
            a camp ground or a waterway.

            What would be wrong to say that no station should be un-manned? Can't
            these guys provide an operator? Are they setting up a base-station just
            so they can get on the internet when they aren't home? This is not ham
            radio as I see it defined in the international agreements. Sho me where
            they have the right to comondere a frequency for their private use.

            Steve/WM5Z



            John Bradley wrote:

            > Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well,
            > weekend
            > ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they
            > can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service" to
            > the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
            > technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is
            > this
            > wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40
            > years
            > of age?
            >
            > Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in touch
            > while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become
            > licensed just
            > to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed to
            > use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
            > Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were so,
            > then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
            > public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to perform
            > this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
            >
            > There are some of us who are not in the hobby to enjoy the sweet smell of
            > rosin core solder with our coffee..........
            >
            > John
            > VE5MU
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Hamish Moffatt <hamish@...>
            > To: MT63 Group <MT63@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:00 PM
            > Subject: Re: [MT63] Use our senses
            >
            >
            > >
            > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 11:02:31AM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
            > > > AMTOR QSOs, all of us using our trusty PK232 or KAM TNC's .
            > Winlink did
            > > > provide a service then , and still does ,
            > > > especially to those of us who are involved in emergency
            > communications,
            > and
            > > > who need email access from a remote location ,
            > > > or when the local internet service is down. Most of us are still using
            > these
            > > > modems for Winlink today.
            > >
            > > I think that's the crux of the problem - Winlink shouldn't be providing
            > > a *service* on the ham bands.
            > >
            > > From what I read in QST, weekend ham license courses are being run
            > > specifically so that boat owners can get licensed and use Winlink.
            > > Those operators should use a commercial service on commercial HF
            > > frequencies or satellite.
            > >
            > >
            > > Hamish
            > > --
            > > Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@...> <hamish@...>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
            > >
            > > - The MT63 Reflector -
            > > MT63@egroups.com
            > >
            > > (To unsubscribe. send email to
            > > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --
            > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
            > > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
            >
            > - The MT63 Reflector -
            > MT63@egroups.com
            >
            > (To unsubscribe. send email to
            > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
            >
            > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MT63/
            >
            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >
            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
            >
            >
          • Brian Carling
            ... Then I think if providing free internet access to commercial users is some folks vision of what a ham radio service should be all about, then we are all
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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              John Bradley wrote:

              >Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well, weekend
              >ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they
              >can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service" to
              >the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
              >technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is this
              >wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40 years
              >of age?
              >
              >Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in touch
              >while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become licensed just
              >to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed to
              >use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
              >Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were so,
              >then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
              >public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to perform
              >this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
              >
              >There are some of us who are not in the hobby to enjoy the sweet smell of
              >rosin core solder with our coffee..........
              >
              >John
              >VE5MU
              >
              >
              >
              Then I think if providing free internet access to commercial users is
              some folks' vision of
              what a ham radio "service" should be all about, then we are all in deep
              doo-doo.
              Enjoy it while you can, because someone else will figure out how to do
              this better and cheaper for
              the sailors on their yachts eventually.
            • Steve Friis
              OK, I felt the heat from the flames. ... I feel that I should have earned this respect since I passed the required test. That aside, I have tought novice
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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                OK, I felt the heat from the flames.



                John Bradley wrote:

                >Old timer or not we all have EQUAL rights to use these frequencies not more,
                >not less, but equal, which also means that these frequencies cannot be set
                >aside for private use.
                >
                >And as far as being "taught" respect, that doesn't work. You have to EARN
                >repect through helping younger and/or new hams get started, rather than
                >living back in the spark-gap days.................
                >
                >
                >
                I feel that I should have earned this "respect" since I passed the
                required test. That aside, I have tought novice classes, CW classes. I
                also have tought General class license classes. I serve in my local ARES
                and on RACES. So, don't try to browbeat me.

                Actually they (pactor users) do NOT have equal rights. If someone in on
                a frequency, then they either need to QSY, or wait for the users of that
                frequency to finish. I am just tired of being bullied, and that is what
                these users have been doing.



                >John
                >VE5MU
                >
                >----- Original Message -----
                >From: Steve Friis <wm5z@...>
                >To: John Bradley <jbradley@...>
                >Cc: Hamish Moffatt <hamish@...>; MT63 Group <MT63@yahoogroups.com>
                >Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:34 PM
                >Subject: Re: [MT63] Use our senses
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>I welcome the new hams, and especially those with purpose. My only
                >>concern is that these new wannabee's and hams haven't been taught to
                >>respect us "old timers" (if you will) who also have earned the right to
                >>use these same frequencies. This is every bit a resource as a highway or
                >>a camp ground or a waterway.
                >>
                >>What would be wrong to say that no station should be un-manned? Can't
                >>these guys provide an operator? Are they setting up a base-station just
                >>so they can get on the internet when they aren't home? This is not ham
                >>radio as I see it defined in the international agreements. Sho me where
                >>they have the right to comondere a frequency for their private use.
                >>
                >>Steve/WM5Z
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>John Bradley wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well,
                >>>weekend
                >>>ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that
                >>>
                >>>
                >they
                >
                >
                >>>can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service"
                >>>
                >>>
                >to
                >
                >
                >>>the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
                >>>technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is
                >>>this
                >>>wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40
                >>>years
                >>>of age?
                >>>
                >>>Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in
                >>>
                >>>
                >touch
                >
                >
                >>>while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become
                >>>licensed just
                >>>to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed
                >>>
                >>>
                >to
                >
                >
                >>>use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
                >>>Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were
                >>>
                >>>
                >so,
                >
                >
                >>>then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
                >>>public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to
                >>>
                >>>
                >perform
                >
                >
                >>>this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
                >>>
                >>>There are some of us who are not in the hobby to enjoy the sweet smell
                >>>
                >>>
                >of
                >
                >
                >>>rosin core solder with our coffee..........
                >>>
                >>>John
                >>>VE5MU
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>----- Original Message -----
                >>>From: Hamish Moffatt <hamish@...>
                >>>To: MT63 Group <MT63@yahoogroups.com>
                >>>Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:00 PM
                >>>Subject: Re: [MT63] Use our senses
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 11:02:31AM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>>AMTOR QSOs, all of us using our trusty PK232 or KAM TNC's .
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>Winlink did
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>>provide a service then , and still does ,
                >>>>>especially to those of us who are involved in emergency
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>communications,
                >>>and
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>>who need email access from a remote location ,
                >>>>>or when the local internet service is down. Most of us are still
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >using
                >
                >
                >>>these
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>>>modems for Winlink today.
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>I think that's the crux of the problem - Winlink shouldn't be
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >providing
                >
                >
                >>>>a *service* on the ham bands.
                >>>>
                >>>>From what I read in QST, weekend ham license courses are being run
                >>>>specifically so that boat owners can get licensed and use Winlink.
                >>>>Those operators should use a commercial service on commercial HF
                >>>>frequencies or satellite.
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>Hamish
                >>>>--
                >>>>Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@...> <hamish@...>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>><< Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
                >>>>
                >>>>- The MT63 Reflector -
                >>>> MT63@egroups.com
                >>>>
                >>>>(To unsubscribe. send email to
                >>>>MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
                >>>>
                >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>--
                >>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
                >>>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                >>>>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>
                >>>
                >>><< Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
                >>>
                >>>- The MT63 Reflector -
                >>> MT63@egroups.com
                >>>
                >>>(To unsubscribe. send email to
                >>>MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >>>*Yahoo! Groups Links*
                >>>
                >>> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MT63/
                >>>
                >>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                >>> MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >>> <mailto:MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                >>>
                >>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                >>> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>--
                >>No virus found in this incoming message.
                >>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                >>Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/05
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Hamish Moffatt
                ... I AM a ham under 40 (under 30 in fact); is that good enough? ... Public service is one thing; regular email service is another. Are hams there allowed to
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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                  On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 07:19:31PM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
                  > Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well, weekend
                  > ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they
                  > can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service" to
                  > the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
                  > technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is this
                  > wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40 years
                  > of age?

                  I AM a ham under 40 (under 30 in fact); is that good enough?

                  > Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in touch
                  > while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become licensed just
                  > to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed to
                  > use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
                  > Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were so,
                  > then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
                  > public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to perform
                  > this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.

                  Public service is one thing; regular email service is another.

                  Are hams there allowed to provide Internet access to other hams using
                  Wifi gear under part 97?

                  Hamish
                  --
                  Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@...> <hamish@...>
                • Brian Carling
                  ... Good point. ... Part 97 signals on HF would not go very far. For these quasi-hams on their yachts getting free internet service, it would do them no good
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                    Hamish Moffatt wrote:

                    >Public service is one thing; regular email service is another.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    Good point.

                    >Are hams there allowed to provide Internet access to other hams using
                    >Wifi gear under part 97?
                    >
                    >

                    Part 97 signals on HF would not go very far. For these "quasi-hams" on
                    their yachts getting
                    free internet service, it would do them no good to send a 100 mW signal
                    out to sea, unless it
                    were via satellite and then they would have to PAY.
                  • karl larsen
                    ... Good question, and I do not know the answer. But I DO know that hams in the US are using WiFi gear on Ham frequencies and providing others with the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hamish Moffatt wrote:

                      >On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 07:19:31PM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well, weekend
                      >>ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they
                      >>can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service" to
                      >>the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
                      >>technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is this
                      >>wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40 years
                      >>of age?
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >I AM a ham under 40 (under 30 in fact); is that good enough?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in touch
                      >>while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become licensed just
                      >>to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed to
                      >>use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
                      >>Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were so,
                      >>then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
                      >>public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to perform
                      >>this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >Public service is one thing; regular email service is another.
                      >
                      >Are hams there allowed to provide Internet access to other hams using
                      >Wifi gear under part 97?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      Good question, and I do not know the answer. But I DO know that hams
                      in the US are using WiFi gear on Ham frequencies and providing others
                      with the Internet. Distances are very short, like less than 5 miles.

                      karl

                      >Hamish
                      >
                      >
                    • Steve Friis
                      What does WI-FI have to do with PakPest? Since WI-FI is an unlicensed service and is on UHF and above?
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                        What does WI-FI have to do with PakPest? Since WI-FI is an unlicensed
                        service and is on UHF and above?


                        karl larsen wrote:

                        >
                        >
                        > Hamish Moffatt wrote:
                        >
                        > >On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 07:19:31PM -0500, John Bradley wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well,
                        > weekend
                        > >>ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so
                        > that they
                        > >>can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a
                        > "service" to
                        > >>the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
                        > >>technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side.
                        > Is this
                        > >>wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under
                        > 40 years
                        > >>of age?
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >I AM a ham under 40 (under 30 in fact); is that good enough?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in
                        > touch
                        > >>while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become
                        > licensed just
                        > >>to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become
                        > licensed to
                        > >>use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
                        > >>Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it
                        > were so,
                        > >>then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
                        > >>public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to
                        > perform
                        > >>this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >Public service is one thing; regular email service is another.
                        > >
                        > >Are hams there allowed to provide Internet access to other hams using
                        > >Wifi gear under part 97?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > Good question, and I do not know the answer. But I DO know that hams
                        > in the US are using WiFi gear on Ham frequencies and providing others
                        > with the Internet. Distances are very short, like less than 5 miles.
                        >
                        > karl
                        >
                        > >Hamish
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
                        >
                        > - The MT63 Reflector -
                        > MT63@egroups.com
                        >
                        > (To unsubscribe. send email to
                        > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                        >
                        > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MT63/
                        >
                        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:MT63-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        >
                        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                        >
                        >
                      • John Becker
                        ... A lot of things have changed post internet before the internet we called it passing traffic It was nothing to see 500+ messages pass my station a day.
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                          >Public service is one thing; regular email service is another.

                          A lot of things have changed post internet
                          before the internet we called it "passing traffic"
                          It was nothing to see 500+ messages pass my
                          station a day.

                          But guys, the bottom line is that we would not have this
                          problem if the pactor stations *could* tell if the frequencies
                          or near by frequencies was being used by any mode.

                          It would be nice if these station could send a *wait* signal
                          back to the remote station say in CW if the frequency
                          was in use.

                          Sorry just think via the keyboard.
                        • Walt DuBose
                          I don t have time to dig up the Part 97 section; but it specifically phohibits the use of amateur radio communications on a regular basis when commercial
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                            I don't have time to dig up the Part 97 section; but it
                            specifically phohibits the use of amateur radio communications on
                            a regular basis when commercial communications are available.
                            I.e. using a phone patch as your only communications when you can
                            purchase POTS or Cell phone service.

                            Use of the ham bands for you regular internet service when an
                            copper connect ISP, wireless ISP, or satellite ISP is available,
                            simply to save money is not in accordance with Part 97.

                            Walt/K5YFW

                            Brian Carling wrote:
                            > John Bradley wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >>Here in this part of Canada, and in other western provinces as well, weekend
                            >>ham classes are being held to train Search and Rescue workers so that they
                            >>can become licensed and use Ham radio as part of providing a "service" to
                            >>the community. Many of these people are young , and not motivated by the
                            >>technical aspects of the hobby, but rather the public service side. Is this
                            >>wrong? nope. when was the last time you had a QSO with a ham under 40 years
                            >>of age?
                            >>
                            >>Also, as hams, we have been known to use Echolink or IRLP to stay in touch
                            >>while travelling. Some RV enthusiasts have gone out and become licensed just
                            >>to be able to do that. Many long distance truckers have become licensed to
                            >>use HF bands in North America to tlak with their peers while working.
                            >>Boaters becoming licensed to use Winlink are no different. If it were so,
                            >>then all of us whose prime interest in radio is the communications and
                            >>public service side should move over to commercial frequencies to perform
                            >>this function since it is a "service" provided by ham radio.
                            >>
                            >>There are some of us who are not in the hobby to enjoy the sweet smell of
                            >>rosin core solder with our coffee..........
                            >>
                            >>John
                            >>VE5MU
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            > Then I think if providing free internet access to commercial users is
                            > some folks' vision of
                            > what a ham radio "service" should be all about, then we are all in deep
                            > doo-doo.
                            > Enjoy it while you can, because someone else will figure out how to do
                            > this better and cheaper for
                            > the sailors on their yachts eventually.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
                            >
                            > - The MT63 Reflector -
                            > MT63@egroups.com
                            >
                            > (To unsubscribe. send email to
                            > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Brian Carling
                            ... Are you saying it is OK for them to break the law? ... I think you know good and well that is a completely different circumstance. Apples and oranges. ...
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                              John Bradley wrote:

                              >I guess I'm getting really, really tired of the never ending rant against
                              >WINLINK,
                              >along with the gross exaggerations on both sides of this issue.
                              >
                              >I first heard of WINLINK in the early to mid 90's when the ariwaves were
                              >full of keyboard to keyboard PACTOR and
                              >AMTOR QSOs, all of us using our trusty PK232 or KAM TNC's . Winlink did
                              >provide a service then , and still does ,
                              >especially to those of us who are involved in emergency communications, and
                              >who need email access from a remote location ,
                              >or when the local internet service is down. Most of us are still using these
                              >modems for Winlink today.
                              >
                              >So what if it is used by boat owners?
                              >

                              Are you saying it is OK for them to break the law?

                              >they are also on the seafarer's net on
                              >14300 SSB. Should they be punted off there as well?
                              >
                              >

                              I think you know good and well that is a completely different circumstance.
                              Apples and oranges.

                              >The fact is that there is no workable alternative to WINLINK right now, and
                              >if SCAMP does get going, who is to say that the same
                              >problems may exist with unattended stations , as is the case with Pactor?
                              >
                              >

                              God forbid - I hope not!

                              >And the unattended HF packet stations are equally a problem
                              >in parts of the spectrum.
                              >
                              >

                              Huh?

                              >Most of us would welcome another mode to replace pactor, and then market
                              >forces take care of those folks who are building the pactor
                              >modems.
                              >
                              >

                              I think many of uis would agree with that.

                              >In the meantime, use of MT63 on the bands has faded to almost nothing, with
                              >just a handful of dedicated operators showing up
                              >now and then. Is this a result of the MT63 reflector becoming a forum for
                              >ranting against the ARRL and pactor? Maybe.
                              >

                              Pffft! Gimme a break. It's a result of ARRL keeping MT63 secret.

                              >Is it a result
                              >of the MT63 reflector becoming a LINUX users group, with windows users
                              >looked at with distain? Perhaps. Do all these messages encourage me to
                              >get on and use MT63 more? Not!!!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              Then why are YOU here? It seems like you like ranting even more than
                              those YOU criticized
                              for discussing the issue! I think that most of us on here have very
                              little against Winlink
                              itself... it is the WAY it is being used and the rude attitude of the
                              operators that is the problem, and that
                              would be the same regardless of what mode they used.

                              It sounds like you are not contributiong to the advancement of the use
                              of MT63. May I suggest that
                              you join an MFSK group instead? We are all POSITIVE on MT63 here.

                              YMMV
                            • John Bradley
                              ... using HF to access emails. What difference is there between that and some of us running phone patches for them? none. ... circumstance. ... Disagree. its
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 6, 2005
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                                > >
                                > >So what if it is used by boat owners?
                                > >Sorry Brian, where are they breaking the law? they are licensed hams,
                                using HF to access emails. What difference is there
                                between that and some of us running phone patches for them? none.
                                >
                                > Are you saying it is OK for them to break the law?


                                >
                                > >they are also on the seafarer's net on
                                > >14300 SSB. Should they be punted off there as well?
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > I think you know good and well that is a completely different
                                circumstance.
                                > Apples and oranges.

                                Disagree. its apples and apples..... both passing traffic to the boater
                                >
                                > >The fact is that there is no workable alternative to WINLINK right now,
                                and
                                > >if SCAMP does get going, who is to say that the same
                                > >problems may exist with unattended stations , as is the case with Pactor?
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > God forbid - I hope not! ............................ME TOO!
                                >
                                > >And the unattended HF packet stations are equally a problem
                                > >in parts of the spectrum.
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > Huh? PACKET BBS ON HF IS A PROBLEM ....... CAN SEND A BURST ON TOP OF
                                ANOTHER QSO
                                >
                                > >Most of us would welcome another mode to replace pactor, and then market
                                > >forces take care of those folks who are building the pactor
                                > >modems.
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > I think many of uis would agree with that.
                                >
                                > >In the meantime, use of MT63 on the bands has faded to almost nothing,
                                with
                                > >just a handful of dedicated operators showing up
                                > >now and then. Is this a result of the MT63 reflector becoming a forum for
                                > >ranting against the ARRL and pactor? Maybe.
                                > >
                                >
                                > Pffft! Gimme a break. It's a result of ARRL keeping MT63 secret.

                                RIGHT!! WHEN HAS IT BECOME THE RESPONSIBILY OF THE ARRL TO BRING NEW MODES
                                TO EVERYONE"S ATTENTION
                                >
                                > >Is it a result
                                > >of the MT63 reflector becoming a LINUX users group, with windows users
                                > >looked at with distain? Perhaps. Do all these messages encourage me to
                                > >get on and use MT63 more? Not!!!
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > Then why are YOU here? It seems like you like ranting even more than
                                > those YOU criticized
                                > for discussing the issue! I think that most of us on here have very
                                > little against Winlink
                                > itself... it is the WAY it is being used and the rude attitude of the
                                > operators that is the problem, and that
                                > would be the same regardless of what mode they used.

                                HEY < WHY DON"T WE USE THIS REFLECTOR TO PROMOTE THE MODE< LOOKING FORWARD
                                RATHER
                                THAN IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR? LETS MOVE CLOSER TO THE PSK FREQ SO FOLKS
                                WILL HEAR MT63
                                QSO'S AND JOIN IN
                                >
                                > It sounds like you are not contributiong to the advancement of the use
                                > of MT63. May I suggest that
                                > you join an MFSK group instead? We are all POSITIVE on MT63 here.

                                YUP< POSITIVE(LY) AGAINST EVERYTHING. ...........

                                >
                                > YMMV
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > << Try MT63 on 80m - great fun!>>
                                >
                                > - The MT63 Reflector -
                                > MT63@egroups.com
                                >
                                > (To unsubscribe. send email to
                                > MT63-unsubscribe@onelist.com)
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
                                > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.3 - Release Date: 4/5/05
                                >
                                >
                              • Brian Carling
                                ... OK so you couldn t give a straight answer. I said WHAT IF. You answered a completely different question. ... Not at all. One is passing voice traffic.
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 7, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  John Bradley wrote:

                                  >>>So what if it is used by boat owners?
                                  >>>Sorry Brian, where are they breaking the law? they are licensed hams,
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >using HF to access emails. What difference is there
                                  >between that and some of us running phone patches for them? none.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>Are you saying it is OK for them to break the law?
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  OK so you couldn't give a straight answer.
                                  I said "WHAT IF." You answered a completely different question.

                                  >>>they are also on the seafarer's net on
                                  >>>14300 SSB. Should they be punted off there as well?
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>I think you know good and well that is a completely different
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >circumstance.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>Apples and oranges.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >Disagree. its apples and apples..... both passing traffic to the boater.
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Not at all. One is passing voice traffic.
                                  The other is accessing the internet with (almost certainly) commercial
                                  content AND circumventing
                                  the commercial means they should be using, thus breaking the law.

                                  The fact that FCC cannot enforce it and ARRL does not seem to care does
                                  not make it any more legal or
                                  any less annoying to those they QRM.

                                  >>>The fact is that there is no workable alternative to WINLINK right now,
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >and
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>>if SCAMP does get going, who is to say that the same
                                  >>>problems may exist with unattended stations , as is the case with Pactor?
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>God forbid - I hope not! ............................ME TOO!
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>>And the unattended HF packet stations are equally a problem
                                  >>>in parts of the spectrum.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>Huh? PACKET BBS ON HF IS A PROBLEM ....... CAN SEND A BURST ON TOP OF
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >ANOTHER QSO
                                  >
                                  >

                                  The "huh" was for the non-sentence.

                                  >>>Most of us would welcome another mode to replace pactor, and then market
                                  >>>forces take care of those folks who are building the pactor
                                  >>>modems.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>I think many of uis would agree with that.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >>>In the meantime, use of MT63 on the bands has faded to almost nothing,
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >with
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>>just a handful of dedicated operators showing up
                                  >>>now and then. Is this a result of the MT63 reflector becoming a forum for
                                  >>>ranting against the ARRL and pactor? Maybe.
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>Pffft! Gimme a break. It's a result of ARRL keeping MT63 secret.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >RIGHT!! WHEN HAS IT BECOME THE RESPONSIBILY OF THE ARRL TO BRING NEW MODES
                                  >TO EVERYONE"S ATTENTION
                                  >
                                  >

                                  SIgh. You REALLY ought to take a class in logical reasoning.

                                  >>>Is it a result
                                  >>>of the MT63 reflector becoming a LINUX users group, with windows users
                                  >>>looked at with distain? Perhaps. Do all these messages encourage me to
                                  >>>get on and use MT63 more? Not!!!
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>>
                                  >>Then why are YOU here? It seems like you like ranting even more than
                                  >>those YOU criticized
                                  >>for discussing the issue! I think that most of us on here have very
                                  >>little against Winlink
                                  >>itself... it is the WAY it is being used and the rude attitude of the
                                  >>operators that is the problem, and that
                                  >>would be the same regardless of what mode they used.
                                  >>
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >HEY < WHY DON"T WE USE THIS REFLECTOR TO PROMOTE THE MODE< LOOKING FORWARD
                                  >RATHER
                                  >THAN IN THE REAR VIEW MIRROR? LETS MOVE CLOSER TO THE PSK FREQ SO FOLKS
                                  >WILL HEAR MT63
                                  >QSO'S AND JOIN IN
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Why are you shouting?
                                  Another "truly brilliant" suggestion - not. It sounds like you are not
                                  contributing to the
                                  advancement of the use of MT63. May I suggest that you join an MFSK
                                  group instead?
                                  We are all POSITIVE on MT63 here.

                                  Enough of the sracasm and foolishness. End of thread.
                                • Walt DuBose
                                  Brian, Your comment... Pffft! Gimme a break. It s a result of ARRL keeping MT63 secret. The ARRL isn t keeping MT63 a secret, we are...if someone doesn t
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 10, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Brian,

                                    Your comment..." Pffft! Gimme a break. It's a result of ARRL
                                    keeping MT63 secret."

                                    The ARRL isn't keeping MT63 a secret, we are...if someone doesn't
                                    write a good article about MT63 and submit it to QST, MT63 will
                                    be a secret.

                                    The ARRL and QST are MEMBER supported organizations...if you
                                    don't write, hams won't know.

                                    Walt/K5YFW

                                    Brian Carling wrote:
                                    > John Bradley wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>I guess I'm getting really, really tired of the never ending rant against
                                    >>WINLINK,
                                    >>along with the gross exaggerations on both sides of this issue.
                                    >>
                                    >>I first heard of WINLINK in the early to mid 90's when the ariwaves were
                                    >>full of keyboard to keyboard PACTOR and
                                    >>AMTOR QSOs, all of us using our trusty PK232 or KAM TNC's . Winlink did
                                    >>provide a service then , and still does ,
                                    >>especially to those of us who are involved in emergency communications, and
                                    >>who need email access from a remote location ,
                                    >>or when the local internet service is down. Most of us are still using these
                                    >>modems for Winlink today.
                                    >>
                                    >>So what if it is used by boat owners?
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Are you saying it is OK for them to break the law?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>they are also on the seafarer's net on
                                    >>14300 SSB. Should they be punted off there as well?
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I think you know good and well that is a completely different circumstance.
                                    > Apples and oranges.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>The fact is that there is no workable alternative to WINLINK right now, and
                                    >>if SCAMP does get going, who is to say that the same
                                    >>problems may exist with unattended stations , as is the case with Pactor?
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > God forbid - I hope not!
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>And the unattended HF packet stations are equally a problem
                                    >>in parts of the spectrum.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Huh?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>Most of us would welcome another mode to replace pactor, and then market
                                    >>forces take care of those folks who are building the pactor
                                    >>modems.
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I think many of uis would agree with that.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>In the meantime, use of MT63 on the bands has faded to almost nothing, with
                                    >>just a handful of dedicated operators showing up
                                    >>now and then. Is this a result of the MT63 reflector becoming a forum for
                                    >>ranting against the ARRL and pactor? Maybe.
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Pffft! Gimme a break. It's a result of ARRL keeping MT63 secret.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>Is it a result
                                    >>of the MT63 reflector becoming a LINUX users group, with windows users
                                    >>looked at with distain? Perhaps. Do all these messages encourage me to
                                    >>get on and use MT63 more? Not!!!
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    > Then why are YOU here? It seems like you like ranting even more than
                                    > those YOU criticized
                                    > for discussing the issue! I think that most of us on here have very
                                    > little against Winlink
                                    > itself... it is the WAY it is being used and the rude attitude of the
                                    > operators that is the problem, and that
                                    > would be the same regardless of what mode they used.
                                    >
                                    > It sounds like you are not contributiong to the advancement of the use
                                    > of MT63. May I suggest that
                                    > you join an MFSK group instead? We are all POSITIVE on MT63 here.
                                    >
                                    > YMMV
                                    >
                                  • Steve Friis
                                    Hi Walt and the group, MT63 isn t a secret, as much as it is not as conducive to keyboard to keyboard chatting compared to some other modes. Most of the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 10, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Walt and the group,

                                      MT63 isn't a secret, as much as it is not as conducive to keyboard to
                                      keyboard chatting compared to some other modes. Most of the problem with
                                      it is how much time it takes to turn-around in a QSO. Some operators get
                                      frustrated waiting for the cache to flush, I think. Also, there has been
                                      discussion and worries about bandwith this mode consumes. Especially
                                      during crowded band conditions.

                                      Here in New Mexico we have been testing the use of MT63 for passing
                                      traffic for ARES, RACES messaging. The Army MARS network is using MT63
                                      along with RTTY and packet. Just not advertised enough.

                                      The best features of MT63 ARE being exploited... just not well advertised.

                                      Steve/WM5Z

                                      Walt DuBose wrote:

                                      > Brian,
                                      >
                                      > Your comment..." Pffft! Gimme a break. It's a result of ARRL
                                      > keeping MT63 secret."
                                      >
                                      > The ARRL isn't keeping MT63 a secret, we are...if someone doesn't
                                      > write a good article about MT63 and submit it to QST, MT63 will
                                      > be a secret.
                                      >
                                      > The ARRL and QST are MEMBER supported organizations...if you
                                      > don't write, hams won't know.
                                      >
                                      > Walt/K5YFW
                                      >
                                      > Brian Carling wrote:
                                      > > John Bradley wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >>I guess I'm getting really, really tired of the never ending rant
                                      > against
                                      > >>WINLINK,
                                      > >>along with the gross exaggerations on both sides of this issue.
                                      >
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