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Re: Nancy and Rebecca

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  • Robert R. Morefield
    Bill, What about the possibility that the Nancy who wrote the consent for Rebecca was the mother of Rebecca who married William and Nancy who married Wright.
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 5, 2004
      Bill,
      What about the possibility that the Nancy who wrote the consent for
      Rebecca was the mother of Rebecca who married William and Nancy who
      married Wright. Saying then that there was a mother and daughter
      Nancy Stevens

      Bob Morefield

      PS We got five inches of snow here last night and it has rained all
      day today and we sill have a bunch of messy snow.


      --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, "s73337a" <s73337a@y...>
      wrote:
      > In my last post, in the section on Wright, I meant to say that
      perhaps
      > someday, someone would be able to sort out the relationships among
      > Nancy Stevens, who married Wright in 1785, and Rebecca Stevens who
      > married William, Sr. in 1801. As most know, Nancy signed consent
      for
      > her "darter Rebecca" to marry William Moorefield. We all were sure
      > that William was son of Wright, and that Rebecca was signing for
      > William, indicating that Wright had died. Boy, it really helps to
      read
      > the documents. Well, it still appears that William (Sr.) may have
      been
      > a son of Wright. If so, a case could be made he was geting married
      to
      > his sister. If William was a son of Wright, then Rebecca must have
      > been a daughter of Nancy before Nancy married Wright. Oh, well.
      Bill
    • s73337a
      ... had hopes of going to Halifax yesterday, but did not make it. I cannot go before two weeks; I ll check marriage records for male Stevens to see if any
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 6, 2004
        --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, "Robert R. Morefield"
        <robertmorefield@y...> wrote:
        > Bob, that makes about as much sense as anything I can think of. I
        had hopes of going to Halifax yesterday, but did not make it. I
        cannot go before two weeks; I'll check marriage records for male
        Stevens to see if any married a Nance somebody. Good point and one we
        had not considered as I remember. See you in about 8 weeks. Bill

        Bill,
        > What about the possibility that the Nancy who wrote the consent for
        > Rebecca was the mother of Rebecca who married William and Nancy
        who
        > married Wright. Saying then that there was a mother and daughter
        > Nancy Stevens
        >
        > Bob Morefield
        >
        > PS We got five inches of snow here last night and it has rained
        all
        > day today and we sill have a bunch of messy snow.
        >
        >
        > --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, "s73337a" <s73337a@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > In my last post, in the section on Wright, I meant to say that
        > perhaps
        > > someday, someone would be able to sort out the relationships among
        > > Nancy Stevens, who married Wright in 1785, and Rebecca Stevens who
        > > married William, Sr. in 1801. As most know, Nancy signed consent
        > for
        > > her "darter Rebecca" to marry William Moorefield. We all were sure
        > > that William was son of Wright, and that Rebecca was signing for
        > > William, indicating that Wright had died. Boy, it really helps to
        > read
        > > the documents. Well, it still appears that William (Sr.) may have
        > been
        > > a son of Wright. If so, a case could be made he was geting
        married
        > to
        > > his sister. If William was a son of Wright, then Rebecca must have
        > > been a daughter of Nancy before Nancy married Wright. Oh, well.
        > Bill
      • Patricia Seaver
        ... Bob, This is my theory, too. It explains the strange wording of the marriage consent signed by Nancy: I gives my Darter rebeckar permission to marry
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 6, 2004
          On Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 09:35 PM, Robert R. Morefield wrote:

          >
          >
          > Bill,
          > What about the possibility that the Nancy who wrote the consent for
          > Rebecca was the mother of Rebecca who married William and Nancy who
          > married Wright. Saying then that there was a mother and daughter
          > Nancy Stevens
          >
          > Bob Morefield
          >
          > PS We got five inches of snow here last night and it has rained all
          > day today and we sill have a bunch of messy snow.
          >
          >

          Bob,

          This is my theory, too. It explains the strange wording of the
          marriage consent signed by Nancy: "I gives my Darter rebeckar"
          permission to marry William Morefield.

          Sorry about your lousy weather. It's 54 here in East TN today, but
          gray and heavy rain; supposed to get much colder tonight.

          Pat (Moorefield) Seaver
        • Patricia Seaver
          Bill, Some time ago, I searched the published marriage records for Halifax for Stevens marriages to Nancy s, but didn t find any. I *think* I checked the
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 6, 2004
            Bill,

            Some time ago, I searched the published marriage records for Halifax
            for Stevens marriages to Nancy's, but didn't find any. I *think* I
            checked the index at MRE 2002 for Stevens marriages, but I'm not sure.
            If you're going to Halifax anyway, it would be good to double-check;
            there are a few marriages in the index that aren't in the published
            accounts. For a long time, I thought Nancy was my ancestress, so I
            did some Stevens research, but with little success. Even if Nancy
            isn't in my line, Rebecca Stevens is, and
            I have continued to look at the Stevens/Stephens off and on. I will
            remind you that Jeremiah and Molly Stevens were witnesses for Nancy &
            Wright's marriage. I've found Jeremiah on tax lists, but haven't been
            able to figure out how he might have been related. Jeremiah first
            appeared on the tax lists in 1787=approximate DoB 1766/1771.

            Pat (Moorefield) Seaver


            On Friday, February 6, 2004, at 03:01 PM, s73337a wrote:

            > --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, "Robert R. Morefield"
            > <robertmorefield@y...> wrote:
            > > Bob, that makes about as much sense as anything I can think of. I
            > had hopes of going to Halifax yesterday, but did not make it. I
            > cannot go before two weeks; I'll check marriage records for male
            > Stevens to see if any married a Nance somebody. Good point and one we
            > had not considered as I remember.  See you in about 8 weeks.  Bill
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Patricia Seaver
            ... Bill, You say that it still appears that William (Sr.) may have been a son of Wright. Do you think that because you now think William (Jr.) was not
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 6, 2004
              On Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 06:36 PM, s73337a wrote:

              > married William, Sr. in 1801. As most know, Nancy signed consent for
              > her "darter Rebecca" to marry William Moorefield. We all were sure
              > that William was son of Wright, and that Rebecca was signing for
              > William, indicating that Wright had died. Boy, it really helps to read
              > the documents. Well, it still appears that William (Sr.) may have been
              > a son of Wright.
              > If so, a case could be made he was geting married to
              > his sister. If William was a son of Wright, then Rebecca must have
              > been a daughter of Nancy before Nancy married Wright. Oh, well. Bill
              >
              >   

              Bill,

              You say that "it still appears that William (Sr.) may have been a son
              of Wright." Do you think that because you now think William (Jr.) was
              not Wright's son? Remember that even if it turns out that William, Jr.
              was not Wright's son, that doesn't mean that William Sr. WAS Wright's
              son, right??

              First, there's the age problem: Wright did not appear on the tax list
              until 1784, when he was living with John, SR.; that indicates a DoB of
              1763/1768. William (Sr) first appeared on the tax list in 1798; that
              indicates a DoB of 1777/1782, which is consistent with the 1820 census,
              which indicates that he was born before 1775. The 1820 census data
              indicating William's age as over 45 makes me lean toward the 1777 end
              of the 1777/1782 range from the tax lists. Further, while Rebecca
              needed her mother's consent to marry, William apparently did not need
              his father's consent. William and Rebecca married in June 1801. At
              what age did a male no longer need a parent's consent to marry? The
              older William was in 1801, the less likely he was Wright's son.

              However, let's assume Wright's oldest possible DoB of 1763 and
              William's youngest possible DoB of 1782--it would then be physically
              possible for Wright (but not Nancy) to be William (sr.)'s father.
              But, is there ANY evidence to that effect? Early researchers explained
              the odd wording of the marriage consent by saying that Wright was
              dead, so Nancy had to sign the consent for an underaged William to
              marry, so we all became ingrained with the idea that William was
              Wright's son. But we now know that Wright was still alive and paying
              taxes when William & Rebecca married, and for almost 20 years more.
              So, when we explain that marriage consent as Nancy giving her daughter
              Rebecca consent to marry William, (the wording is no longer odd under
              that scenario) and we recognize that Wright was still living, are
              there any *independent* indications that William was Wright's son?

              And, what are the independent indications that William was John, Sr.'s
              son?

              First, the *January* 1801 court record where William acts as John,
              Sr.'s agent. Okay.. Wright was born no earlier than 1763. If he was
              William's father, then William was probably born after 1780. That
              would make him 20-ish in *Jan* 1801. Would John, Sr. send an 18-20
              year old grandson to act as his agent in a court case, when he had sons
              John, Jr,, Wright, and Moore living in the area? There is a paradox
              here: the younger William (Sr.) was, the more likely he could have
              been Wright's son but the less likely he could have acted as anyone's
              agent in court.

              Second, the tax lists. The enumeration dates are far from perfect as
              a tool to determine connections, but in 1798 and 1799 unmarried
              William was enumerated on the same day as John, Sr., while Wright was
              enumerated on a different day. In 1800, 1801 and 1803, I didn't find
              William on the tax lists. In 1802 and 1804 and thereafter, William
              wasn't enumerated on the same day as John, Sr., but he wasn't
              enumerated on the same day as Wright, either.

              I consider the court case and the tax lists to be "indications" that
              William (Sr.) was John, Sr.'s son, and I consider his age, as indicated
              from the 1820 census and the tax lists, to present a problem for his
              being Wright's son. Are there any similar indications that link him
              more strongly to Wright?

              Pat (Moorefield) Seaver



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • s73337a
              ... wrote: Pat, I think I was very tired when I wrote this and was comfusing my thoughts of the Edward/Wright realtionship with Wright /William,
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 6, 2004
                --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Seaver
                <pseaver@c...> wrote:
                Pat, I think I was very tired when I wrote this and was comfusing my
                thoughts of the Edward/Wright realtionship with Wright /William, Sr.
                Actually, I agree with you that William, Sr. was most likely a son of
                John, Sr. and Winifred. Please my "senior moment" Bill>

                > On Thursday, February 5, 2004, at 06:36 PM, s73337a wrote:
                >
                > > married William, Sr. in 1801. As most know, Nancy signed consent for
                > > her "darter Rebecca" to marry William Moorefield. We all were sure
                > > that William was son of Wright, and that Rebecca was signing for
                > > William, indicating that Wright had died. Boy, it really helps to read
                > > the documents. Well, it still appears that William (Sr.) may have been
                > > a son of Wright.
                > > If so, a case could be made he was geting married to
                > > his sister. If William was a son of Wright, then Rebecca must have
                > > been a daughter of Nancy before Nancy married Wright. Oh, well. Bill
                > >
                > >
                >
                > Bill,
                >
                > You say that "it still appears that William (Sr.) may have been a son
                > of Wright." Do you think that because you now think William (Jr.) was
                > not Wright's son? Remember that even if it turns out that William, Jr.
                > was not Wright's son, that doesn't mean that William Sr. WAS Wright's
                > son, right??
                >
                > First, there's the age problem: Wright did not appear on the tax list
                > until 1784, when he was living with John, SR.; that indicates a DoB of
                > 1763/1768. William (Sr) first appeared on the tax list in 1798; that
                > indicates a DoB of 1777/1782, which is consistent with the 1820 census,
                > which indicates that he was born before 1775. The 1820 census data
                > indicating William's age as over 45 makes me lean toward the 1777 end
                > of the 1777/1782 range from the tax lists. Further, while Rebecca
                > needed her mother's consent to marry, William apparently did not need
                > his father's consent. William and Rebecca married in June 1801. At
                > what age did a male no longer need a parent's consent to marry? The
                > older William was in 1801, the less likely he was Wright's son.
                >
                > However, let's assume Wright's oldest possible DoB of 1763 and
                > William's youngest possible DoB of 1782--it would then be physically
                > possible for Wright (but not Nancy) to be William (sr.)'s father.
                > But, is there ANY evidence to that effect? Early researchers explained
                > the odd wording of the marriage consent by saying that Wright was
                > dead, so Nancy had to sign the consent for an underaged William to
                > marry, so we all became ingrained with the idea that William was
                > Wright's son. But we now know that Wright was still alive and paying
                > taxes when William & Rebecca married, and for almost 20 years more.
                > So, when we explain that marriage consent as Nancy giving her daughter
                > Rebecca consent to marry William, (the wording is no longer odd under
                > that scenario) and we recognize that Wright was still living, are
                > there any *independent* indications that William was Wright's son?
                >
                > And, what are the independent indications that William was John, Sr.'s
                > son?
                >
                > First, the *January* 1801 court record where William acts as John,
                > Sr.'s agent. Okay.. Wright was born no earlier than 1763. If he was
                > William's father, then William was probably born after 1780. That
                > would make him 20-ish in *Jan* 1801. Would John, Sr. send an 18-20
                > year old grandson to act as his agent in a court case, when he had sons
                > John, Jr,, Wright, and Moore living in the area? There is a paradox
                > here: the younger William (Sr.) was, the more likely he could have
                > been Wright's son but the less likely he could have acted as anyone's
                > agent in court.
                >
                > Second, the tax lists. The enumeration dates are far from perfect as
                > a tool to determine connections, but in 1798 and 1799 unmarried
                > William was enumerated on the same day as John, Sr., while Wright was
                > enumerated on a different day. In 1800, 1801 and 1803, I didn't find
                > William on the tax lists. In 1802 and 1804 and thereafter, William
                > wasn't enumerated on the same day as John, Sr., but he wasn't
                > enumerated on the same day as Wright, either.
                >
                > I consider the court case and the tax lists to be "indications" that
                > William (Sr.) was John, Sr.'s son, and I consider his age, as indicated
                > from the 1820 census and the tax lists, to present a problem for his
                > being Wright's son. Are there any similar indications that link him
                > more strongly to Wright?
                >
                > Pat (Moorefield) Seaver
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • s73337a
                ... I ve got to quit this when I m sleepy. Bill
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 7, 2004
                  --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, "s73337a" <s73337a@y...> wrote:
                  > --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Seaver
                  > <pseaver@c...> wrote:
                  > Pat, I think I was very tired when I wrote this and was comfusing my
                  > thoughts of the Edward/Wright realtionship with Wright /William, Sr.
                  > Actually, I agree with you that William, Sr. was most likely a son of
                  > John, Sr. and MARTHA/PATSY. Please my "senior moment" Bill>
                  >
                  I've got to quit this when I'm sleepy. Bill
                  > >
                • Patricia Moorefield Seaver
                  ... Bill, While I am on hold (14 minutes and counting) to USAirways, I decided to refresh my memory about Nancy s and Rebecca s marriage consents. Nancy s She
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 7, 2004
                    --- In MOREFIELDHOMEPLACE@yahoogroups.com, Patricia Seaver <
                    pseaver@c...> wrote:
                    > I have continued to look at the Stevens/Stephens off and on. I will
                    > remind you that Jeremiah and Molly Stevens were witnesses for Nancy &
                    > Wright's marriage. I've found Jeremiah on tax lists, but haven't been
                    > able to figure out how he might have been related. Jeremiah first
                    > appeared on the tax lists in 1787=approximate DoB 1766/1771.
                    >
                    > Pat (Moorefield) Seaver
                    >

                    Bill,

                    While I am on hold (14 minutes and counting) to USAirways, I decided to
                    refresh my memory about Nancy's and Rebecca's marriage consents.

                    Nancy's
                    She gives her own consent, which is witnessed by Jerimiah Stevens and
                    Molly Stevens. Nancy & Wright married 3 dec 1785. On the back (or front) of
                    the page on which her consent is written, there is a note dated 16 sept 1785
                    and signed by James Stevens. The right margin is missing, but the following
                    is visible:
                    16th Sept 1785
                    ...your being at Court
                    ...being in any (my?) potsisrn(?) to
                    ...if you have any money
                    ...leave it with Jeramiah
                    ...much want of Cash
                    ...will Oblige.
                    Your hble Serv
                    James Stevens

                    (Pat's note: the word "position" would logically fit where I transcribed
                    "potsism", but the third letter is either "l" or an uncrossed "t". Compared to
                    other examples of the same letter in recognizable words, the "l" or "t" is
                    followed by what looks like "s" or "r", followed by, "e" or "i" and then "n".

                    Observations:
                    Nancy was of age in 1785 (what was the age of consent for females?)
                    Nancy had access to a note signed by James Stevens. There are two
                    possibilities that I can think of: (1) James Stevens wrote and sent the note to
                    someone else, and that someone else provided it to Nancy for her to write her
                    consent (2) it is a draft of a note that James Stevens wrote; he copied it over
                    before sending it; ini that case, it was in James Stevens' possession when it
                    was available for Nancy's use. Does anyone have any ideas about which
                    scenario was more likely?

                    Rebecca's
                    "Then(?) I give my consent for my Darter
                    rebecker Stevens to be marred to
                    William Morefield
                    Nancy Morefield June the 24 180

                    Under Nancy's signature & the date (it is 180, not 1801) is a line that appears
                    to be
                    I Bealy (Beasly) Stivens I will
                    Some researchers have assumed that Beasly Stevens was Rebecca's father.
                    That line of handwriting is in a different handwriting from the consent and
                    signature, and it has a line drawn through it. That line has been much
                    discussed. After reading the suggestion that the line drawn through the
                    handwriting was from a fold in the paper, Phyllis & I examined the original
                    document in September 2002. Our conclusion: the line is not near a fold, it is
                    not straight as a fold would be, and it clearly appeared to us to be a line of ink
                    marking out those words. That doesn't rule out Beasly Stivens as Rebecca's
                    father, but if he were her father, why did Nancy sign the consent?

                    The consent for Rebecca to marry William also has writing on the back (or the
                    front) of the paper. Here is the way it appears:

                    Jeams Stevens
                    Be??? Nancy (?) Morefield 17?? Joh
                    (word marked out-n?? L.?) Stevens and jeams Stevens my complem
                    o you and desire you to come down on thursday
                    next D?ti?
                    Money makes the War go John morefield
                    fls(?)
                    Money makes the war go and water makes the branch
                    Be.??

                    The size of the writing is interesting on this note. The body of the message is
                    written in one size. Then the line "Money...morefield": "Money...go John" is
                    written in larger handwriting, with more flourrishes. Then "morefield" and the
                    last line "Money...branch" are written in smaller handwriting, and may be a
                    different handwriting from the rest of the note. The 2 occurrences of "jeams"
                    in the body of the note are not capitalized and have a dot over the j. The
                    "John" after "Money....go" is written as a capital letter, but "morefield" is not
                    capitalized. It's possible that there are 3 different handwritings here: the body
                    of the note; the line "Money...morefield" and the last line "Money...branch"
                    When you look at the difference between "John" and "morefield"--size and
                    style, it almost seems as though they were written by two different people, or
                    at least at two different times. So... did John Morefield send a note to
                    someone asking them to come for a visit? Then, did two people write the
                    rhyme? And, then, Nancy wrote her consent for rebeckar to marry William on
                    the back. Any other scenarios come to mind?

                    At any rate, Bill, here are two or three Stevens names to look for in Halifax. I
                    have the tax list data for Stevens in Halifax 1782-1799. Yesterday, I wrote that
                    Jeremiah Stevens didn't appear on the tax lists until 1787, but now I see that
                    he appeared in 1782, disappeared, and then reappeared in 1787. I am
                    going to post that in a separate message.

                    Pat (Moorefield) Seaver
                  • Patricia Seaver
                    On Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 09:28 AM, Patricia Moorefield Seaver ... The word marked out that I transcribed as possibly n??L... Look at the tax lists
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 7, 2004
                      On Saturday, February 7, 2004, at 09:28 AM, Patricia Moorefield Seaver
                      wrote:

                      >
                      > The consent for Rebecca to marry William also has writing on the back
                      > (or the
                      > front) of the paper.  Here is the way it appears:
                      >
                      > Jeams Stevens
                      >                                           Be??? Nancy (?) Morefield
                      > 17?? Joh
                      > (word marked out-n?? L.?) Stevens and jeams Stevens my complem
                      > o you and desire you to come down on thursday
                      > next                D?ti?
                      > Money makes the War go   John morefield
                      >                                                                      
                      > fls(?)
                      > Money makes the war go and water makes the branch
                      >                                                                     
                      > Be.??
                      >
                      >
                      The word marked out that I transcribed as possibly n??L... Look at the
                      tax lists for the Stevens that I just posted. There was a Michael
                      Stevens... I believe the marked out word could be "micl" or similar.

                      Pat (Moorefield) Seaver


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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