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Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

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  • Terri Harris
    No Toni, we don t percieve you as smart aleck know it all when you are honestly seeking information. There are genetic problems in the MKs that have not been
    Message 1 of 53 , Sep 1, 2006
      No Toni, we don't percieve you as smart aleck know it all when you are honestly seeking information.  There are genetic problems in the MKs that have not been discussed openly.  They do have a number  of flat chests/ tight chests, ending in the eventual death of the kittens because, as Dana stated, the ribs don't allow sufficient growth for the heart and lungs.  I've had a few of these, some survive, some dont.  It would appear, from my statistics, that you can not eliminate it through selective breeding.
      Terri J. Harris
      Now located near Kansas City, MO  Breeder of rare and unusual cats
       


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Toni Stephens <kindred@...>
      To: MKBreeders@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 1, 2006 5:29:16 PM
      Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

      That is so sad. Again,all I have to offer as far as experience is with pei. The chest deformaties seemed to be carried only by females which showed sign but seemd to outgrow. It was something that was reproduced by the same female no matter what male she was bred to.
      Cleft palate pups never make it.After I get the sack off a newborn,before I do anything else.I check for cleft palate and if it is there, I know the pup ha sto be pts humanely. They will basically starve to death if not.
      I havent seen any 'health issues' yahoo list for sphynx  or the short breeds. I believe its very important to have somewhere to be honest and open about these things and also a place for new breeders like me to be able to learn from the ones of you who have been breeding and have knowledge.
      I hoep I dont ever come across as a smart aleck know it all . I ask a lot of questions and some of them are pretty dumb ones.: ).
      Toni
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 4:50 PM
      Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

      I have had 3 that died, but have produced alot of kittens, probably 100 standards. I have not had any LLs with the trait, only the standard kittens, so that is why I had assumed it was related to the MK gene...  On most affected kittens, it was apparent at 3-6 weeks and then by 10 weeks, they outgrew it and became normal looking again. I have used several different males and all of them have produced it.  I have not kept any of those for breeding and have seen no pattern to particular matings. I have seen affected kittens on other breeders sites for sale, so I know I'm not alone. I've never seen one on your site though. But many others, I have. The reason I was asking is because I'd love to have a line that has no issues with this, if there is such a line.
       
      Dana
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:34 PM
      Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

      I have only one that I truly know that that was his problem.  He would have panic attacks and couldn't breathe.  The vet X-rayed him  and said that his chest didn't seem overly too small, but came to the conclusion that it was, he died at 6 weeks.  I have had no other problems with the flat chest.  I have had one cleft pallet that lived for one week.
      Dawn


    • Dana - Loprofile
      I did find a pic that was taken a couple of weeks prior. It s not at his worst, but you can see the problem. Dana ... From: Dana - Loprofile To:
      Message 53 of 53 , Sep 2, 2006
        I did find a pic that was taken a couple of weeks prior. It's not at his worst, but you can see the problem.
         
        Dana
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 11:03 AM
        Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

        FCK or Pectus can occur even in domestic cats, but the incidence is not as common. I would bet the LL was a fluke. I have had one Exotic with FCK over several years of breeding them. It was to parents that had been bred before and after with no other kitten having the condition.
         
        The standard kittens, however, have a high incidence of FCK compared to normal statured cats. It is not apparent at birth.  Some can be so minorly affected that the only way you can tell is that the ribcage is not smooth around, it seems to have slight corners to it.  Some are so severe that it looks like a 2 week old ribcage on a 8 week old body. The severely affected kttens are not as common, but in these, the condition is usually fatal. I had one that I kept caged that eventually outgrew it, but I thought he was going to die.  I'm so glad that I did not put him down because he is now a very happy, spoiled, lap cat:) But I couldn't believe that he actually grew out of it and lived long enough for that to happen.  At 12 weeks, he weighed about 8 oz and his chest was as small as a tube of lipstick.  By 4 months, he was close to 3 pounds and you'd never guess he had such a problem. I'll attach a picture of him at 4 months after he outgrew it. I wish I had taken pics of him before, so you could see what I am referring to. He was so cute that my hubby wanted me to keep him for breeding, but of course no one in their right mind would breed a cat that had this condition. Hubby doesn't know any better:) He just loves and plays with them:)
         
        I think the lordosis is caused by the pectus / FCK whichever it may be. The ribcage is so tiny that the vertebrae are pulled downward to the tiny ribcage. All severely affected kittens have lordosis along with FCK or pectus.
         
        Look at my photo below.  You'd never know this kitten had a severe defect that was obviously apparent just 4 weeks earlier. 
         
         
        Dana
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 8:29 PM
        Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

        Since it is occuring within your experience in the long legs as well do you think it is in certain lines or associated with some enviromental factor possibly?
        Do you think there is a high incidence of this?
        In my mind i imagine that you are talking about the rib cages I have seen 2-3 times with my pups over 15 yrs.The ribcage seem not to have the floating ribs.It is very narrow from the sides and doesnt really expand..almost like the ribs have no cartialge..which would expand..only bone.
        I think I had one that survived many years ago and was petted out.The other 2 best I recall...couldnt breath their first breath after being born.They were alive until they were removed from the sack at which time I tried to work on them but realized there was nothing I could do.I believe all three were from the same bitches line that produce dthe flat babies..flat due to the rib cage expanding and opening too much.
        I hope that I can acrry over some of what I have learne dfrom the dogs...but,cats are not dogs.
        Toni
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 7:24 PM
        Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

        No Toni, we don't percieve you as smart aleck know it all when you are honestly seeking information.  There are genetic problems in the MKs that have not been discussed openly.  They do have a number  of flat chests/ tight chests, ending in the eventual death of the kittens because, as Dana stated, the ribs don't allow sufficient growth for the heart and lungs.  I've had a few of these, some survive, some dont.  It would appear, from my statistics, that you can not eliminate it through selective breeding.
        Terri J. Harris
        Now located near Kansas City, MO  Breeder of rare and unusual cats
         


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Toni Stephens <kindred@seark. net>
        To: MKBreeders@yahoogro ups.com
        Sent: Friday, September 1, 2006 5:29:16 PM
        Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

        That is so sad. Again,all I have to offer as far as experience is with pei. The chest deformaties seemed to be carried only by females which showed sign but seemd to outgrow. It was something that was reproduced by the same female no matter what male she was bred to.
        Cleft palate pups never make it.After I get the sack off a newborn,before I do anything else.I check for cleft palate and if it is there, I know the pup ha sto be pts humanely. They will basically starve to death if not.
        I havent seen any 'health issues' yahoo list for sphynx  or the short breeds. I believe its very important to have somewhere to be honest and open about these things and also a place for new breeders like me to be able to learn from the ones of you who have been breeding and have knowledge.
        I hoep I dont ever come across as a smart aleck know it all . I ask a lot of questions and some of them are pretty dumb ones.: ).
        Toni
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 4:50 PM
        Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

        I have had 3 that died, but have produced alot of kittens, probably 100 standards. I have not had any LLs with the trait, only the standard kittens, so that is why I had assumed it was related to the MK gene...  On most affected kittens, it was apparent at 3-6 weeks and then by 10 weeks, they outgrew it and became normal looking again. I have used several different males and all of them have produced it.  I have not kept any of those for breeding and have seen no pattern to particular matings. I have seen affected kittens on other breeders sites for sale, so I know I'm not alone. I've never seen one on your site though. But many others, I have. The reason I was asking is because I'd love to have a line that has no issues with this, if there is such a line.
         
        Dana
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:34 PM
        Subject: Re: [MKBreeders] Re: HHP and the TICA Trend

        I have only one that I truly know that that was his problem.  He would have panic attacks and couldn't breathe.  The vet X-rayed him  and said that his chest didn't seem overly too small, but came to the conclusion that it was, he died at 6 weeks.  I have had no other problems with the flat chest.  I have had one cleft pallet that lived for one week.
        Dawn


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