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Melbourne Hang Gliding Club Inc. is a Restricted Group with 162 members.
- Melbourne Hang Gliding Club Inc.
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MHGC Messenger Group
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- Last year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President
- H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President - Phil this has come up before. I personally am on both messenger and Stalkbook so it doesn’t bother me, but .....1. There are too many objectors.2. It may not be a legal way of formal communication eg. AGM’s etc. You may need to ask Darryl to investigate this from a Dept. Of Justice perspective.3. You said many other Victorian Clubs are using messenger, but is WVHGC the only one?NEVHGC still uses email as does Dynasoarers as does Skyhigh.Wouldn’t it be better to just replace yahoo with gmail or similar rather than reinventing the wheel?
Regards,Gabriel Toniolo0407544511On 9 Jan 2019, at 8:31 am, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] <MHGC@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President Hi Dean,
Understand what you are saying as a non-FB user, however, consider what information is used when creating a Messenger/Facebook profile from scratch and just how exactly that might be used IF that was released to any other party.
You don’t need to use your real name (many people don’t).
You don’t need to use your real DOB (many people don’t).
You can use any email address you like to verify the account.
You obviously can use any password you like.
If someone is otherwise not on FB/Messenger and not proposing to use it for any other purpose other than for communications using Messenger for the purposes of connecting with other like-minded flying people in order to maximise their own flying opportunities and those of the other members of the group then it’s a good thing and I would consider that the risk to an individual persons data to be miniscule.
I personally think its awesome – providing people post when/where they are proposing to fly it’s a great way for new pilots to get airtime as well as more experienced pilots to get to fly with others – I much prefer to fly with other people, but it can be difficult connecting with them all.
Coupled with Phil’s wheretofly page/app I reckon its making it heaps easier to get some quality airtime in!
Good on the committee for continuing to evolve.
I doubt that you would ever find a communication method that will be “perfect” for everyone – for example, although my mum has a smart phone, its almost never on, has no email address, facebook account or any other social media apps and she has no idea how to txt message even.
From: MHGC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MHGC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:31 AM
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <SPAM> Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupH Phil,
What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?
Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.
Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.
Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.
Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.
There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger.
"We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Dean
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.
A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.
So we’re going to:
• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.
• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.
• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.
All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.
We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.
The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.
The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:
Any and all feedback welcome.
Phil Seeley
MHGC President
- Hi Tim,You're right, you don't need to give your real name or DOB (even if Phil does recommend that in the messenger set-up instructions and Facebook actively tries to purge false accounts). But consider what other information you are providing (even though you may not realise it):What permissions are you allowing Facebook to have on your phone? Definitely you are allowing access to your real contacts, phone numbers and messages (both reading and writing).Your GPS location, Tower locationIP addressWiFi network connected to/LocationThe people you have spoken to, time/duration, content (if messages)other metadataSecondly, if your phone is used for business purposes (which mine is), depending on what you do for work you could be in breach of the Privacy Act if you allow access to you contacts and their phone number and any comms with them without their permission.Then, once Facebook cross-references your real phone number, location, comms, other metadata etc., with your contacts and people on the wider Facebook database, photos, biometric data and their contacts/comms they can then build a network and work out exactly who you actually are, together with a timeline of everything you have done, people you have spoken to and where you have been.Google can even identify people from Google queries.As you can see it is not as simple as merely providing false particulars.Providing a real name and DOB is enough information for identity theft if it was ever hacked.DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 9:06 AM
From: "Tim Leed tim@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,
Understand what you are saying as a non-FB user, however, consider what information is used when creating a Messenger/Facebook profile from scratch and just how exactly that might be used IF that was released to any other party.
You don’t need to use your real name (many people don’t).
You don’t need to use your real DOB (many people don’t).
You can use any email address you like to verify the account.
You obviously can use any password you like.
If someone is otherwise not on FB/Messenger and not proposing to use it for any other purpose other than for communications using Messenger for the purposes of connecting with other like-minded flying people in order to maximise their own flying opportunities and those of the other members of the group then it’s a good thing and I would consider that the risk to an individual persons data to be miniscule.
I personally think its awesome – providing people post when/where they are proposing to fly it’s a great way for new pilots to get airtime as well as more experienced pilots to get to fly with others – I much prefer to fly with other people, but it can be difficult connecting with them all.
Coupled with Phil’s wheretofly page/app I reckon its making it heaps easier to get some quality airtime in!
Good on the committee for continuing to evolve.
I doubt that you would ever find a communication method that will be “perfect” for everyone – for example, although my mum has a smart phone, its almost never on, has no email address, facebook account or any other social media apps and she has no idea how to txt message even.
From: MHGC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MHGC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:31 AM
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <SPAM> Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupH Phil,
What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?
Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.
Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.
Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.
Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.
There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger.
"We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Dean
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.
A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.
So we’re going to:
• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.
• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.
• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.
All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.
We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.
The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.
The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:
Any and all feedback welcome.
Phil Seeley
MHGC President
- Hi AllHope you don't mind my chiming in here....Both NEVHGC and Sky HIgh now use a google groups mailing list to reach their members. We've found google groups to be far more reliable than Yahoo.There are also secondary communications (NEVHGC has set up a Facebook group and some members are also using WhatsApp). However the primary means of communication is still via the google mailling lists. NEVHGC members are now advised that they must remain on the club google mailling list if they want to remain assured of receiving essential club communications such as advice of meetings, policies etc..We took this path because, although some find Facebook useful, not everyone wants to be part of it. What we are doing we consider to be more inclusive.Cheers!Karl TexlerSecretaryNorth East Victoria Hang Gliding Club
----- Original Message -----From:MHGC@yahoogroups.comTo:<MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Cc:Sent:Tue, 8 Jan 2019 23:49:57 +0100Subject:Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group
Hi Tim,You're right, you don't need to give your real name or DOB (even if Phil does recommend that in the messenger set-up instructions and Facebook actively tries to purge false accounts). But consider what other information you are providing (even though you may not realise it):What permissions are you allowing Facebook to have on your phone? Definitely you are allowing access to your real contacts, phone numbers and messages (both reading and writing).Your GPS location, Tower locationIP addressWiFi network connected to/LocationThe people you have spoken to, time/duration, content (if messages)other metadataSecondly, if your phone is used for business purposes (which mine is), depending on what you do for work you could be in breach of the Privacy Act if you allow access to you contacts and their phone number and any comms with them without their permission.Then, once Facebook cross-references your real phone number, location, comms, other metadata etc., with your contacts and people on the wider Facebook database, photos, biometric data and their contacts/comms they can then build a network and work out exactly who you actually are, together with a timeline of everything you have done, people you have spoken to and where you have been.Google can even identify people from Google queries.As you can see it is not as simple as merely providing false particulars.Providing a real name and DOB is enough information for identity theft if it was ever hacked.DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 9:06 AM
From: "Tim Leed tim@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,
Understand what you are saying as a non-FB user, however, consider what information is used when creating a Messenger/Facebook profile from scratch and just how exactly that might be used IF that was released to any other party.
You don’t need to use your real name (many people don’t).
You don’t need to use your real DOB (many people don’t).
You can use any email address you like to verify the account.
You obviously can use any password you like.
If someone is otherwise not on FB/Messenger and not proposing to use it for any other purpose other than for communications using Messenger for the purposes of connecting with other like-minded flying people in order to maximise their own flying opportunities and those of the other members of the group then it’s a good thing and I would consider that the risk to an individual persons data to be miniscule.
I personally think its awesome – providing people post when/where they are proposing to fly it’s a great way for new pilots to get airtime as well as more experienced pilots to get to fly with others – I much prefer to fly with other people, but it can be difficult connecting with them all.
Coupled with Phil’s wheretofly page/app I reckon its making it heaps easier to get some quality airtime in!
Good on the committee for continuing to evolve.
I doubt that you would ever find a communication method that will be “perfect” for everyone – for example, although my mum has a smart phone, its almost never on, has no email address, facebook account or any other social media apps and she has no idea how to txt message even.
From: MHGC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:MHGC@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2019 8:31 AM
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: <SPAM> Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupH Phil,
What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?
Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.
Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.
Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.
Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.
There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger.
"We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Dean
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.
A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.
So we’re going to:
• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.
• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.
• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.
All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.
We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.
The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.
The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:
Any and all feedback welcome.
Phil Seeley
MHGC President
- Hi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President - Hi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President - Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)To: MHGC@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President - Hi Phil,The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President Just a reminder that you dont have to join Facebook in order to use facebook messenger. Example, myself and James Wynd
Steve Norman
-------- Forwarded Message --------Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:36:20 +1100 From: Rohan Holtkamp Rohan@... [MHGC] <MHGC@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Hi Phil,
The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years.. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President- Hi Steve,Actually you do. If you've got messenger, you've got Facebook. You may have joined via the Messenger app but go onto their main website and login using your messenger details and there's your Facebook account.I actually decided to bite the bullet on this and am currently locked out, stuck in a Facebook security loop. I followed Tim's advice from a few posts ago and used my real first name but a false surname. I got pinged within 10 mins. So far Facebook have requested my mobile number and a photo for them to scan with their facial recognition software. I've sent them a picture of Nosferatu. Hopefully that's good enough.There's no way I could have joined messenger without also joining Facebook. They are one in the same. I tried signing up with messenger first, and then directly at the Facebook site. I couldn't join messenger without Facebook, it would not let me.DeanSent: Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:10 PM
From: "Stephen Norman agnorman@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupJust a reminder that you dont have to join Facebook in order to use facebook messenger. Example, myself and James Wynd
Steve Norman
-------- Forwarded Message --------Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:36:20 +1100 From: Rohan Holtkamp Rohan@... [MHGC] <MHGC@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Hi Phil,
The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years.. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President - Thanks Rohan. How did we ever mange when we had to find a pay-phone to call for a retrieve. And make sure we always carried enough small change!Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "Rohan Holtkamp Rohan@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 11/1/19 09:36 (GMT+10:00)To: MHGC@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group
Hi Phil,
The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years.. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President Dean,
An attempt to log in to Facebook using my messenger details, i.e. mobile phone number had following result
Facebook did not recognise any of my email addresses.
So I am yet to be convinced I am on Facebook
Steve
On 11/01/2019 8:47 pm, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Steve,Actually you do. If you've got messenger, you've got Facebook. You may have joined via the Messenger app but go onto their main website and login using your messenger details and there's your Facebook account.I actually decided to bite the bullet on this and am currently locked out, stuck in a Facebook security loop. I followed Tim's advice from a few posts ago and used my real first name but a false surname. I got pinged within 10 mins. So far Facebook have requested my mobile number and a photo for them to scan with their facial recognition software. I've sent them a picture of Nosferatu. Hopefully that's good enough.There's no way I could have joined messenger without also joining Facebook. They are one in the same. I tried signing up with messenger first, and then directly at the Facebook site. I couldn't join messenger without Facebook, it would not let me.DeanSent: Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:10 PM
From: "Stephen Norman agnorman@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupJust a reminder that you dont have to join Facebook in order to use facebook messenger. Example, myself and James Wynd
Steve Norman
-------- Forwarded Message --------Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:36:20 +1100 From: Rohan Holtkamp Rohan@... [MHGC] <MHGC@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Hi Phil,
The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years.. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC PresidentDean, here's a bit more info to support my hypothesis:
On 12/01/2019 5:55 pm, Stephen Norman agnorman@... [MHGC] wrote:Dean,
An attempt to log in to Facebook using my messenger details, i.e. mobile phone number had following result
Facebook did not recognise any of my email addresses.
So I am yet to be convinced I am on Facebook
Steve
On 11/01/2019 8:47 pm, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Steve,Actually you do. If you've got messenger, you've got Facebook. You may have joined via the Messenger app but go onto their main website and login using your messenger details and there's your Facebook account.I actually decided to bite the bullet on this and am currently locked out, stuck in a Facebook security loop. I followed Tim's advice from a few posts ago and used my real first name but a false surname. I got pinged within 10 mins. So far Facebook have requested my mobile number and a photo for them to scan with their facial recognition software. I've sent them a picture of Nosferatu. Hopefully that's good enough.There's no way I could have joined messenger without also joining Facebook. They are one in the same. I tried signing up with messenger first, and then directly at the Facebook site. I couldn't join messenger without Facebook, it would not let me.DeanSent: Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:10 PM
From: "Stephen Norman agnorman@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupJust a reminder that you dont have to join Facebook in order to use facebook messenger. Example, myself and James Wynd
Steve Norman
-------- Forwarded Message --------Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:36:20 +1100 From: Rohan Holtkamp Rohan@... [MHGC] <MHGC@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Hi Phil,
The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years.. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President- Hi Steve,Interesting. Did you set a password? From what I understand is that in order for it to work you need to first set a password in messenger and then log in. When I tried it, instead of getting the "This account only works on Messenger" I got a box pop up saying "Click to Recover Account".What that does prove though is that Facebook does recognise your Messenger account. They are sharing the same back-end. You can search for people on Facebook from within Messenger and vice versa. What you post on Messenger also gets posted on Facebook (My Story).I've just been playing around with messenger and to me it appears quite tightly integrated into Facebook, even to the point of being able to download your Facebook information from within Messenger. Tap the head icon in top right corner > scroll down and tap on Account Settings. Has anybody ever downloaded their Facebook info?So far I'm not convinced about Messenger. It appears to be more of a Facebook social network front-end, masquerading as an instant messenging service rather than a dedicated instant messenger. As a comparison, Messenger is 192MB in size compared to Telegram at 55.49MB. I'd like to know how quickly messenger drains the battery.Dean: Saturday, January 12, 2019 at 5:55 PMFrom: "Stephen Norman agnorman@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group [1 Attachment]Dean,
An attempt to log in to Facebook using my messenger details, i.e. mobile phone number had following result
Facebook did not recognise any of my email addresses.
So I am yet to be convinced I am on Facebook
Steve
On 11/01/2019 8:47 pm, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Steve,Actually you do. If you've got messenger, you've got Facebook. You may have joined via the Messenger app but go onto their main website and login using your messenger details and there's your Facebook account.I actually decided to bite the bullet on this and am currently locked out, stuck in a Facebook security loop. I followed Tim's advice from a few posts ago and used my real first name but a false surname. I got pinged within 10 mins. So far Facebook have requested my mobile number and a photo for them to scan with their facial recognition software. I've sent them a picture of Nosferatu. Hopefully that's good enough.There's no way I could have joined messenger without also joining Facebook. They are one in the same. I tried signing up with messenger first, and then directly at the Facebook site. I couldn't join messenger without Facebook, it would not let me.DeanSent: Friday, January 11, 2019 at 8:10 PM
From: "Stephen Norman agnorman@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupJust a reminder that you dont have to join Facebook in order to use facebook messenger. Example, myself and James Wynd
Steve Norman
-------- Forwarded Message --------Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger Group Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 09:36:20 +1100 From: Rohan Holtkamp Rohan@... [MHGC] <MHGC@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Hi Phil,
The WVHGC old system was text group but it relied upon one person adding or subtracting members and sending out the SMS as they came in - long delays and lots of work. Email group was crappy and some had to be home to use it.The ACT boys tried to convince us to use Twitter but the suggestion was unconvincing at club meetings so it never got up.The most successful spread the word system for WVHGC is Messenger. It gets info out there but not all flying activities are posted. There are still many that just go flying without mentioning it to the club in general. I estimate only 20 percent of the flying location/days actually reach messenger. Thats not a bad thing mind you as some days the messages just pile up and the choices become too great.The pilots who wish to go flying and join in but want to avoid messenger/facebook only have to send a text to me and ask. Dean ;-)This is still a far better system than our options back in the day - find a pay phone and hope the other pilots are still home when you you rang. If you could't get them at home you'd make a car-radio call from a hill top and wind up talking to some truckie in QLD.This club is always open to new ideas but you have to make the pitch convincing if you want change.Regards,Rohan.On 09/01/2019, at 2:01 PM, philphil1966 philphil1966@... [MHGC] wrote:Hi Dean,We could go a different route, but for it to be practical and for it to work for you, you'd have to convince WVHGC, Dynasoarers etc to change. I think that would be your biggest hurdle.CheersPhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.-------- Original message --------From: "'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>Date: 9/1/19 13:11 (GMT+10:00)Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Phil,I agree Yahoo Groups leaves a lot to be desired. The software is old, clunky and not reliable - I don't think it has changed in the last 20 years.. Instant messaging is definitely the way to go, when it works it is brilliant.The example you gave of MHGC organising flying at Thistle Hill using WVHGC's messenger is a perfect example. As a WVHGC member I didn't receive any of those messages because I am not on messenger. That's proof that even using messenger leads to fragmented or no communication. And as you mentioned, it is the newer pilots that are missing out the most. As a newer hang glider pilot myself, I'm definitely missing out with the WVHGCs messenger. And if newer pilots don't get the opportunity to fly and build up their hours the obvious conclusion is they will end up leaving the sport.Messenger may be pragmatic but as Karl mentioned in another message it is non-inclusive, and ironically will create/accentuate the problem it is supposed to solve.It takes all of two seconds to set up an instant messenger group and there is virtually zero admin required. Why not run a couple of different IM platforms in parallel and see which one people gravitate to?Cheers,DeanSent: Wednesday, January 09, 2019 at 12:02 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
To: MHGC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupHi Dean,The reality is that the club has been using FB since 2007 (when the FB group was created). I obviously wasn't party to that decision and the realities of FB probably weren't known at the time, but it's the position we're in.If the club thinks that there is a good reason to keep the Yahoo Group then that's OK, but as it's not the best tool for organising flying. Consequently people are using other means which is fragmenting communications and it's the newer pilots who are trying to build a relationship with experianced club members that loose out the most.As WVHGC, Dynasoarers and also ACT are using Messenger the majority of members are already using it. As an example, recently MHGC members were using the WVHGC Messenger Group to organise flying at Thistle Hill.So creating a dedicated MHGC Messenger Group for our members was the most pragmatic choice.CheersPhilOn Tue, 2019-01-08 at 22:30 +0100, 'Dean Macpherson' deancm@... [MHGC] wrote:H Phil,What about those members that do not have a Facebook account and for whatever reason(s) will not join Facebook?Make no mistake, Facebook Messenger is Facebook (so is WhatsApp for that matter). Originally Messenger was a bolt on to the main Facebook site, but Facebook opened it up to people without a Facebook account to get new people to sign up, but it is still linked to the main site and if you have a messenger account you have a Facebook account created by default. All you need to do is set a password in Messenger and bingo, there's your Facebook account. To say you can use Messenger without joining Facebook is disingenuous - you sign up to Messenger you've signed up to Facebook whether you use the main site or not.Personally, Facebook is far too cavalier with peoples' personal and private information. There's a reason why Facebook is being dragged over the coals for violation of privacy in the US, UK, EU and Australia, and to make the move to use Messenger is essentially forcing members who would otherwise not join Facebook into handing over their personal information and join Facebook. In my opinion that is wrong.Just because other clubs are using it doesn't mean it is the best choice. For instance, I am also a member of the WVHGC which uses Messenger solely. Since I have joined, and as I am not on Facebook or Messenger, I have received a total of zero communications from them. That is not what I call using Messenger effectively, especially if it alienates paid members.Any communications platform that does not have 100% buy in is not fit for purpose.There are better platforms available that dont sell your personal information to all and sundry or datamine your devices. Telegram for example, all you need to do is download the app, enter your phone number and you are set up, no personal information required. Just as easy if not easier than setting up Facebook Messenger."We do understand the dislike of Facebook" If you understand the dislike of Facebook then why would you choose a platform that people dislike? If people dislike something it's highly unlikely they will use it.Anyway, that's my two cents.DeanSent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 at 10:24 PM
From: "phil philphil1966@... [MHGC]" <MHGC@yahoogroups..com>
To: "MHGC@yahoogroups.com" <MHGC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [MHGC] MHGC Messenger GroupLast year the subject of the Yahoo Email Group being unreliable was raised multiple times. This was especially true when trying to organise flying as messages were often delayed by hours or days.A number of options were discussed, but in order to simply things it was decided to make the most of the existing Facebook Group and create an “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying.So we’re going to:• Use the existing FB Group for all event organisation and other club business.• Use the new “MHGC” Messenger Group for organising flying activities.• Over time phase out the Yahoo Group due to its unreliability.All other options would have resulted in the majority of members requiring yet another account.We do understand the dislike of Facebook, which is why we've put the effort into investigating and documenting how to set-up a minimal account just for club use.The reality is that all the other VIC clubs are using Facebook and Messenger effectively, so it's already a reality for most club members.The details of the Facebook Group, how to set-up a minimal Facebook account and invitations to join the VIC Messenger groups can be found on our web-site:Any and all feedback welcome.Phil SeeleyMHGC President
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