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Re: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have built one of these MEG's

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  • Koen van Vlaenderen
    [Koan] That means that a rapidly changing voltage, or diverging / converging currents induce a scalar field. Maybe the MEG is making use of scalar fields
    Message 1 of 24 , Jul 18, 2002
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      [Koan] That means that a rapidly changing voltage, or diverging / converging currents induce a scalar field.
       
      Maybe the MEG is making use of  scalar fields effects.
      [Bob] CEMF seems to occur instantly, at least 'speed of light stuff'..or shall we say 'speed of flux'.  Since CEMF is opposite in polarity to the applied voltage it opposes current buildup.....and this is a bazaar state of fields, potentials, and fluxes. 
      On the one hand we have forced a potential across the coil leads which creates flux which cuts the turns which reduces the flux which creates a CCEMF which cuts the turns which slows the flux fall which....and on and on and on.  The integral of this process is a current/flux in the core that rises in ramp fashion.  Which supports Rob's suspicion that Tesla's special coil might have properties worth investigating.  I suspect that using the Tesla coil in the output could reach resonance in the 40khz range with many fewer turns thereby producing the MEG effects 'Megavation' at much lower voltage levels which I surely would like to see given the problems with dealing with higher voltages.
       
       
      [Koan]   I suppose that the input current pulses  can order the phase
      of the small circular currents in the MEG core.
       
      [Bob] Interesting.  I had not given any regards as to the magnetic effects of current flow (electrons spinning round and round) in the core.  I suppose it is not to be overlooked in a transformer.  I have only viewed this in terms of a loss. 
       
      By fragmenting the core in very thin layers, the losses are greatly reduced, but the induced magnetic flux can only
      mean a magnetic polarization = circular current  of electrons. The Metglas core is metal stuff, so there will always be current
      in it.  This is not electron spin, like in ferrites.
       
          Now it is clear why this needs to be done at a particular frequency that must be related to
          the orbital frequency of the circular current in the MEG core.
      [Bob] Another area of darkness in my MEG knowledge.  Everybody, including the patent, point out that the MEG is running at resonance. 
       
      Very good point Bob, resonance means that there is a natural frequency involved. But what is periodic in the MEG when there is no
      input current? That can only be the circular flow of electrons. The strenght of the permanent magnets and the
      structure of the core determine the natural orbital frequency. Therefore it is important to know which magnets Bearden uses,
      and also the size of the magnets. Has this information been included in the patent?
       
       I am still trying to understand (using the AAMC-320 core) if this resonance is due to the LC product of the output coils or if it is a higher order effect of Core properties and output coil characteristics.  I have done tests using a 40T pri and found the first resonance about 22mhz.  I have also made tests using a 40T Pri and a 40T secondary and found the first resonance above 5mhz.  With 40t pri and 450t sec I find the first resonance in the neighborhood of 100khz but in Bearden's paper on his meg measurements http://www.help4all.de/energy/MEGpaper.pdf his scope traces clearly (well maybe not so clearly) show a secondary frequency of 40khz.  There will be mysteries to unveil when I get the whole transformer put together and get it running.  Perhaps the combination of the input coils, Core transfer times you refer to, and output coils properties the resonance will occur at a lower (40khz) when the whole thing is running a  2 coil MEG. 
      The resonance frequency depends on the magnetic field strength.
       
      In case that the charge is at some point in time all at the outside (closest to the core
      outside edge)  and half a cycle later closest to the north-south axis of the MEG core,
      then we have a diverging and converging current, then scalar field effects might be
      present.

      [Bob] You've done it again Koan.  I am having trouble understanding how, in a Torus, it is possible to induce voltage into the secondary since the flux is said to be confined to the core of the transformer.  I have been presuming that the flux is not really confined but somehow sums to zero in the space surrounding the coil and coils wrapped around the core getting hit from inside and outside the coil see a differential.   
       
      The precisely timed input pulses probably order the phase of the electrons in circular flow, which means a nett current is generated,
      (they do not sum up zero no longer!!!)  therefore an alternating electrical potential is induced.
      You can think of a 1000 pendulums with equal length, swinging side by side, but with a random phase.
      Suppose you apply simultaneously and periodically a little force pulse to all pendulums in their frequency, guess what happens:
      after a while their phases are all the same. Because these pendulums are charges in the MEG core, a voltage is induced.
      I think the polarisation of the nett current is radial, and that means that the current is diverging/converging
      in the resonance frequency.  By the way: the applied frequency can also be the natural frequency divided  2 or 3 or 4,  etc ...
      By applying very fast square pulses, one can reduce greatly the input power, while the phase gets ordered anyway.
      This is the reduction of phase chaos, and the induction of the order that we call electric field and scalar field.
      When the output coil picks up this electro-scalar power, then this order is dissipated, meaning the phases get random.
       
      see also http://www.truth.myweb.nl/electrodynamics_secrets_IE.html
      [Bob]  Showing my ignorance here I must confess that you and Andre Waser, Andre GSponer and Jean-Pierre Hurni's work leaves me with a feeling of awe when I attempt to understand your papers.  The paragraph headed "The use of magnets for inducing scalar fields and cold current" helped me to understand what you may mean by "current" in a Permanent magnet"....as you describe the relative movement of the electrons as they spin around the nucleus.
       
       
      Conclusion:
      the MEG has nothing to do with flux switching, because the flux of the permanent
      magnet cannot be switched.
      The only source of dynamical magnetic flux is the electrical circuit, and not the permanent magnet
       [Bob Winchester]  agreed
       
      unless one side of the MEG can be driven into saturatation, but this needs to be done
      with a much higher input current than described in the MEG patent. Thus, the overunity effect can only be explained by some electro-scalar phenomenon. I have described mathematically the wireless transfer of power via longitudinal electro-scalar waves. The permanent magnets are necessary for inducing circular current, but the real trick is creating order in the phase chaos. Via a capacative coupling and scalar-coupling (a pan cake coil has a divergence factor beside of a rotation factor) can the energy be tapped by the output coil.
       

      [Robert Winchester] I am confused by your remark about permanent magnets creating circular current.  Are you referring to flux or electron flow?
       
      electron flow
       
      Also, I am thinking that when the MEG is Megavating (producing OU) flux gating may occur due the fast rising pulse across the input coil and the reflected fields associated with resonance coming into phase under the flux gate to a level sufficient to block the Magnet's flux thereby releasing the Magnet's flux to fly over to the other side....out on a theoretical limb here and I can hear the buzz saws starting up!  One thing we must admit.  If the MEG 'really works' then there is magic (new science) at work here and we must look outside the text books for an explanation. 
       
      The most mystical aspects is: where does the extra power come from? In what form does energy flow into the core/magnet?
      I think it is in the form of longitudinal electro-scalar (LES) waves that constitute a real power flow, like the transversal electro-magnetic waves.
      The LES waves theory is indeed brand new. It was a thrill to discover that only a minor adjustement of the standard theory
      of electrodynamics (Maxwell theory)  was necessary for finding the LES wave solutions.
      If one only knew this theory in Tesla´s days, then this great engineer would have been taken much more seriously with respect to his longitudinal waves.
      If you look at my theory, you will notice that I defined everything in exact mathematical terms. This is beyond Bearden.
      I debated with Hal Puthoff, Jack Sarfatti and others, such as a Russian engineer from Moskow,  and nobody was able to
      contradict the new theory. It is based on disregarding the Lorentz gauge condition.
      Standard textbooks and most scientists acknowledge the Lorentz gauge condition, but nobody knows why.
      It is based on a circular argument. By assuming the opposite (the Lorentz gauge condition is false) one can find typical Tesla wave solutions.
      Maybe our sun is radiating also a lot of
       
       
       This cannot happen until someone like yourself get your hands on a MEG that can be made to Megavate and parameters be investigated that are outside the current science of transformers. As best I know there has never been a transformer produced that puts out more power than is applied. It is like religion, I think I believe in the MEG, but I have never seen one...yet.  Reminds me of my feelings back when I was convinced that cold fusion was on solid theoretical grounds....even today, I keep waiting to hear they have succeeded. (moderator, please forgive me for getting philosophical here)
       
      Engineer Achleitner from Austria also build a MEG ( he could not get it to work in overunity). This engineer discovered that at a particular frequency energy seemed to disappear. This energy was not radiated away from the MEG in the form of the ordinary measurable Hertz waves, and was not measured at the output coil. A portion of the input energy simply disappeared. This means that the MEG was functioning in a send mode, and I suppose that the MEG was sending longitudinal electroscalar waves that could not be measured by Achleitner.
       

      [Bob] Did he use a Metglas core? Perhaps you can point me to his work....I am not finished reading the back messages in the Archives of Meg_builders...maybe I will find it there.
       
      Yes, he tried to reproduce Bearden's MEG, but to his astonishment he achieved the opposite of generating power:
      a portion of the input power dissappeared. This was (to my opinion) the most interesting result of the German/Swiss MEG congress
      in Biebelried two years ago. All the others presented MEGs in the usual transformer mode, which is not the way the MEG functions.
      For this reason they all had a COP of 0.99   in stead of  COP > 1.
      I asked Achleitner if he measured radiation, and the answer was that he tried to measure energy flow in the form of Hertz wave radiation,
      but he did not detect Hertz waves at all !  Still a portion of the input power simply disappeared.
      I remarked that his experiment is Nobel price stuff, because this means a completely new type of radiation
      (not partical radiation, nor TEM waves). Two years ago I did not have a clue about an alternative type of radiation.
      I tried to find the email address of Achleitner, and asked Adolf Schneider (organiser of MEG conference in Switserland)
      if he had his address, but he didn´t.  I would like to know what magnets Achleitner used, and at which frequency
      he measured the loss of power. I also have these Metglas cores and Neodynium magnets, but these magnets are
      too strong, and probably the resonance frequency is much too high when using such magnets.
       
       
      Koen
      [Bob] You really got me going here.  Thank you.
       
      I thank you too, Bob, and hopefully you achieve overunity. Bearden mentioned a non-rotating form of Magnetic potential.
      That can only be a diverging/converging Magnetic potential, and such a potential is induced by diverging/converging currents.
      This can be done by ordering the phase of the charge in circular motion  via small corrective pulses in the same frequency
      as the orbital frequency, and this is what we call resonance.  It is a simple theory, and it is certainly not a proven fact.
       
      Question, what type of coil also has a high capacative coupling?  In case that the transferred power to the output
      is directly electrical, a capacitor construction would be much better, in stead of an output coil,
      such as double layer of metal foil with a dielectricum in between, rapped around the MEG core.
      The input circuit might be something similar: just metal foil around the core, and in stead of an input current,
      one might apply an input voltage. An input coil and an output coil is based on the idea of a dynamical magnetic flux,
      and I suppose that the extra power does not exist in the form of an extra magnetic flux change  (the permanent
      magnet flux cannot be switched).
       
    • Robert Winchester
      Rob Thanks, I agree. Looks like a great coil to try...will be hard to wind. Bob ... From: robert_bielik [mailto:robert.bielik@rbcaudio.com] Sent: Saturday,
      Message 2 of 24 , Jul 20, 2002
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        Rob
        Thanks, I agree.  Looks like a great coil to try...will be hard to wind.
        Bob
        -----Original Message-----
        From: robert_bielik [mailto:robert.bielik@...]
        Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 4:39 PM
        To: MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have built one of these MEG's

        Hi Bob,

        As you describe bifilar coil, the coil produces no flux as the windings are "counter-winded" to produce both a south- and north- going flux? But the Tesla non-inductive coil is nothing like that, it should produce exactly the same flux as a normal coil for the same number of turns, just without self-induction (?)

        Regards,
        /Rob

        --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Robert Winchester" <rwinches@t...> wrote:
        >  I must admit
        > to being out on a theoretical limb here but it appears the Tesla bifilar
        > wound coil would produce the same amount of North going and South going flux
        > which would result in no effect to the flux flowing in the core.
        >




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      • Koen van Vlaenderen
        Tesla´s pancake coil is such that it has a higher capacitive coupling per winding. The capacity between the windings compensates the inductive coupling,
        Message 3 of 24 , Jul 21, 2002
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          Tesla´s pancake coil is such that it has a higher capacitive coupling per
          winding.
          The capacity between the windings compensates the inductive coupling,
          according to Tesla.

          Since the impedance of a coil is 1/(iwL) = -i/wL and that of a capacitor
          is iwC then
          these two factors can compensate, but probably at a resonance frequency this
          compensation
          is optimal.

          Koen



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "robert_bielik" <robert.bielik@...>
          To: <MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:38 PM
          Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have built one of these MEG's


          > Hi Bob,
          >
          > As you describe bifilar coil, the coil produces no flux as the windings
          are "counter-winded" to produce both a south- and north- going flux? But the
          Tesla non-inductive coil is nothing like that, it should produce exactly the
          same flux as a normal coil for the same number of turns, just without
          self-induction (?)
          >
          > Regards,
          > /Rob
          >
          > --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Robert Winchester" <rwinches@t...> wrote:
          > > I must admit
          > > to being out on a theoretical limb here but it appears the Tesla bifilar
          > > wound coil would produce the same amount of North going and South going
          flux
          > > which would result in no effect to the flux flowing in the core.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Main page:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders
          >
          >
          > To post a message to this group, send email to
          > MEG_Builders@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > To contact the moderator of this group, send email to
          > MEG_Builders-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
          > MEG_Builders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
        • robert_bielik
          Hi Bob n all, I shot that off before reading your message regarding pat no 512,340. Sorry bout that ;) Anyway, another interesting patent regarding coil
          Message 4 of 24 , Jul 22, 2002
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            Hi Bob 'n all,

            I shot that off before reading your message regarding pat no 512,340.
            Sorry 'bout that ;)

            Anyway, another interesting patent regarding coil winding is the
            patent no 4,806,834 'Earl Koenig's Mirror Image Symmetry'. It
            purports to increase the efficiency of a coil given a certain number
            of turns. Maybe this would allow lower input power for the same
            amount of magnetic flux? Also, using this technique in combination
            with bifilar windings might be very interesting.

            Would appreciate comments on pat 4,806,834 as I'm not certain how it
            works...

            Regards,
            /Rob



            --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Robert Winchester" <rwinches@t...> wrote:
            > Rob
            > Thanks, I agree. Looks like a great coil to try...will be hard to
            wind.
            > Bob
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: robert_bielik [mailto:robert.bielik@r...]
            > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 4:39 PM
            > To: MEG_builders@y...
            > Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have built one of
            these MEG's
            >
            >
            > Hi Bob,
            >
            > As you describe bifilar coil, the coil produces no flux as the
            windings
            > are "counter-winded" to produce both a south- and north- going
            flux? But the
            > Tesla non-inductive coil is nothing like that, it should produce
            exactly the
            > same flux as a normal coil for the same number of turns, just
            without
            > self-induction (?)
            >
            > Regards,
            > /Rob
          • brandon richardson
            you got that backwards. for a cap it is 1/jwc, inductor is jwL. -Brandon Richardson- ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
            Message 5 of 24 , Jul 22, 2002
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              you got that backwards. for a cap it is 1/jwc,
              inductor is jwL.

              -Brandon Richardson-

              --- Koen van Vlaenderen <koenvanvlaenderen@...>
              wrote:
              > Tesla�s pancake coil is such that it has a higher
              > capacitive coupling per
              > winding.
              > The capacity between the windings compensates the
              > inductive coupling,
              > according to Tesla.
              >
              > Since the impedance of a coil is 1/(iwL) = -i/wL
              > and that of a capacitor
              > is iwC then
              > these two factors can compensate, but probably at a
              > resonance frequency this
              > compensation
              > is optimal.
              >
              > Koen
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "robert_bielik" <robert.bielik@...>
              > To: <MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:38 PM
              > Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have
              > built one of these MEG's
              >
              >
              > > Hi Bob,
              > >
              > > As you describe bifilar coil, the coil produces no
              > flux as the windings
              > are "counter-winded" to produce both a south- and
              > north- going flux? But the
              > Tesla non-inductive coil is nothing like that, it
              > should produce exactly the
              > same flux as a normal coil for the same number of
              > turns, just without
              > self-induction (?)
              > >
              > > Regards,
              > > /Rob
              > >
              > > --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Robert Winchester"
              > <rwinches@t...> wrote:
              > > > I must admit
              > > > to being out on a theoretical limb here but it
              > appears the Tesla bifilar
              > > > wound coil would produce the same amount of
              > North going and South going
              > flux
              > > > which would result in no effect to the flux
              > flowing in the core.
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Main page:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders
              > >
              > >
              > > To post a message to this group, send email to
              > > MEG_Builders@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > To contact the moderator of this group, send
              > email to
              > > MEG_Builders-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
              > > MEG_Builders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >


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            • Koen van Vlaenderen
              Your are right, but it is clear that the two factors can compensate each other, but only at a particular frequency. Have to read my school books again ;-),
              Message 6 of 24 , Jul 22, 2002
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                Your are right,
                but it is clear that the two factors can compensate each other, but only at
                a particular
                frequency.

                Have to read my school books again ;-), thanks for correcting.

                Just a crazy idea, thinking of a Faraday disc where currents flow through
                the
                disc from center to the rim, maybe this effect also occurs in the pan cake
                coil.
                The Faraday disc effect is caused by the magnetic field and circular
                flow of charge. Since the pan cake coil is also disc shaped, and current
                flow circular AND from center to rim (or in opposite direction)
                there might be an extra voltage via the Faraday disc effect.
                Then there is a back EMF as a consequence of Lenz´ law
                AND an extra voltage as a consequence of the radial Faraday disc force.

                Tesla mentioned that a pancake coil can be used to induce much higher
                voltages,
                then there must be an extra effect involved, beside of Lenz´ law.
                By the way, the compensation idea (of inductive and capacitive impedances)
                contradicts the idea of inducing a high voltage: if the inductive impedance
                is compensated,
                then the coil is only a resistor, and cannot have a high voltage from
                end-to-end, because
                the resistence of wire is small.
                Tesla did not explain why the pan-cake coil has a higher capacity per
                winding than the ordinary coil.
                I think that Tesla´s idea of a bigger capacitive impedance that compensates
                the inductive impedance
                is simply wrong, and this does NOT explain (on the contrary, it
                contradicts) that the induced voltage is high.



                Back to the MEG:
                I reasoned that the phase of the orbital currents in the MEG Metglas core
                should become
                ordered, which means an extra radial voltage is induced, and also
                diverging/converging current.
                A pancake coil might couple much better to such a radial electric potential
                than an ordinary
                coil, because the charge is forced to flow in a radial direction by a radial
                electric potential.
                This has nothing todo with back EMF or the Lenz law. The MEG extra energy
                input cannot be explained by the usual transformer operation.

                The resonance frequency of the MEG must be a natural frequency in the MEG
                core, induced by the
                permanent magnet. This frequency is, of course, the orbital frequency of the
                magnetically
                polarized charge in the MEG core. Resonance means that the input signal has
                to have this
                frequency, divided or multiplied by a natural number.
                I think that the typical Metglas structure garantees that
                most of the charge has the same orbital frequency, and is much faster than
                in more standard iron cores.
                The input signal just orders the phase of the magnetically polarized charge.
                When the phases of all the tiny circular currents is random,
                then there is no nett electric current. But after ordering the phases, a
                nett current is induced.
                The counter flux induced the small and pulsed input current must have an
                effect on the phase of the MEG core
                charge in circular motion, and might induce a nett radial current flow,
                therefore induce a radial
                electric potential. Pancake coils can couple much better to this extra
                electric potential.

                So if you asked me if pancake output coils are better, then I would say yes.

                Koen



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "brandon richardson" <richar18@...>
                To: <MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 3:18 PM
                Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have built one of these
                MEG's


                > you got that backwards. for a cap it is 1/jwc,
                > inductor is jwL.
                >
                > -Brandon Richardson-
                >
                > --- Koen van Vlaenderen <koenvanvlaenderen@...>
                > wrote:
                > > Tesla´s pancake coil is such that it has a higher
                > > capacitive coupling per
                > > winding.
                > > The capacity between the windings compensates the
                > > inductive coupling,
                > > according to Tesla.
                > >
                > > Since the impedance of a coil is 1/(iwL) = -i/wL
                > > and that of a capacitor
                > > is iwC then
                > > these two factors can compensate, but probably at a
                > > resonance frequency this
                > > compensation
                > > is optimal.
                > >
                > > Koen
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "robert_bielik" <robert.bielik@...>
                > > To: <MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2002 10:38 PM
                > > Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: How many people have
                > > built one of these MEG's
                > >
                > >
                > > > Hi Bob,
                > > >
                > > > As you describe bifilar coil, the coil produces no
                > > flux as the windings
                > > are "counter-winded" to produce both a south- and
                > > north- going flux? But the
                > > Tesla non-inductive coil is nothing like that, it
                > > should produce exactly the
                > > same flux as a normal coil for the same number of
                > > turns, just without
                > > self-induction (?)
                > > >
                > > > Regards,
                > > > /Rob
                > > >
                > > > --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Robert Winchester"
                > > <rwinches@t...> wrote:
                > > > > I must admit
                > > > > to being out on a theoretical limb here but it
                > > appears the Tesla bifilar
                > > > > wound coil would produce the same amount of
                > > North going and South going
                > > flux
                > > > > which would result in no effect to the flux
                > > flowing in the core.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Main page:
                > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To post a message to this group, send email to
                > > > MEG_Builders@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > To contact the moderator of this group, send
                > > email to
                > > > MEG_Builders-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
                > > > MEG_Builders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
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              • BobW
                Koan et al Koan Tesla did not explain why the pan-cake coil has a higher capacity per winding than the ordinary coil. [Robert Winchester] Tesla s patent #
                Message 7 of 24 , Jul 23, 2002
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                  Koan et al
                   
                  Koan
                  Tesla did not explain why the pan-cake coil has a higher capacity per
                  winding than the ordinary coil.
                   
                  [Robert Winchester]   Tesla's patent # 512,340 pertains to a double wire pan-cake where the current flows through the first wire and then through the second wire thereby separating the two wires by half the voltage across the coil.  see diagram and description at http://www.keel net.com/teals/00512340.him . 
                   
                  Here I quote one paragraph from the patent:
                   
                  Tesla> In order to attain my object and to properly increase the capacity of any given coil, I wind it in such way as to secure a greater difference of potential between its adjacent turns or convolutions, and since the energy stored in the coil considering - the latter as a condenser, is proportionate to the square of the potential difference between its adjacent convolutions, it is evident that I may in this way secure by a proper disposition of these convolutions a greatly increased capacity for a given increase in potential difference between the turns.  This process of double wires could be continued to a multi-layer coil wound as a number of pan-cakes side by side.
                   
                  He was looking to store more energy per turn in a coil.
                   
                  Does capacitance and capacity mean the same thing here?
                   
                  I have seen solenoid winding instructions explain to wind left to right the first layer then cross back over to the left before winding layer two left to right with the claim that the flux per turn would be higher.  The text I recall was some professors notes on a basic electromagnetism class project.  Sounds like the Tesla idea at work.

                  Isn't it neat how Mr.. Tesla joined in the discussion above!
                • BobW
                  Oh, oh, oh ….boo boo big time That statement at the end of the Tesla quote, “This process of double wires could be continued to a multi-layer coil wound as
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 23, 2002
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                    Oh, oh, oh ….boo boo big time

                    That statement at the end of the Tesla quote, “This process of double wires could be continued to a multi-layer coil wound as a number of pan-cakes side by side.) was my doing.  It should have been the next paragraph….sorry to mislead the readers…Bob

                     

                     

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: BobW [mailto:rwinches@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 12:23 PM
                    To: MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [MEG_builders] Tesla coil as MEG gate

                     

                    Koan et al

                     

                    Koan > Tesla did not explain why the pan-cake coil has a higher capacity per
                    winding than the ordinary coil.
                     
                    [Robert Winchester]   Tesla's patent # 512,340 pertains to a double wire pan-cake where the current flows through the first wire and then through the second wire thereby separating the two wires by half the voltage across the coil.  see diagram and description at http://www.keel net.com/teals/00512340.him . 

                     

                    Here I quote one paragraph from the patent:

                     

                    Tesla> In order to attain my object and to properly increase the capacity of any given coil, I wind it in such way as to secure a greater difference of potential between its adjacent turns or convolutions, and since the energy stored in the coil considering - the latter as a condenser, is proportionate to the square of the potential difference between its adjacent convolutions, it is evident that I may in this way secure by a proper disposition of these convolutions a greatly increased capacity for a given increase in potential difference between the turns.  This process of double wires could be continued to a multi-layer coil wound as a number of pan-cakes side by side.

                     

                    He was looking to store more energy per turn in a coil.

                     

                    Does capacitance and capacity mean the same thing here?

                     

                    I have seen solenoid winding instructions explain to wind left to right the first layer then cross back over to the left before winding layer two left to right with the claim that the flux per turn would be higher.  The text I recall was some professors notes on a basic electromagnetism class project.  Sounds like the Tesla idea at work.


                    Isn't it neat how Mr.. Tesla joined in the discussion above!



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                  • BobW
                    To one and all All 4 coils of my newly wound MEG coil are shorted to the Metglas core which is a pretty darn good conductor of electricity. I waited till my
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 23, 2002
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                      To one and all

                       

                      All 4 coils of my newly wound MEG coil are shorted to the Metglas core which is a pretty darn good conductor of electricity.  I waited till my drive circuitry had trouble driving the MEG to get out the ohm meter…

                       

                      My excuse…I did not pay close enough attention that those edges were so sharp they kept cutting my fingers when I was handling it before putting the windings on but I did make sure each turn was wound very tight to keep it looking pretty…^%*$@#.

                       

                      Were is not likely that I have several shorts on the first layer of each coil  I would just change the control strategy to allow one end of each coil to be at DC ground but any Shorted turns are the death nail of any transformer and I am sure, even though it is a horse of a different color transformer, the MEG will not Megavate with shorted turns.

                       

                      What will I do…. Remove all windings.  Sand down corners.  Put layer of cardboard around core.  Spend another 16 hours winding about 3lbs of copper back on the core.

                       

                      Where is that hack saw!

                       

                      BobW

                       

                       

                    • Koen van Vlaenderen
                      One has to read very carefully Teslas description. I think his description refers to the single wire pan-cake coil. Tesla assumes that the stored energy is
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 23, 2002
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                        One has to read very carefully Teslas description. I think his description refers to the single wire pan-cake coil.
                        Tesla assumes that the stored energy is proportional to V²  (it is CV²) and V is the voltage across the entire coil.
                        That is because Tesla considers the pan-cake coil  as a capacitor.
                         
                        Usually the energy in a coil is proportional to LI²  where I is the current through the coil.
                        So Tesla means there is extra energy in the form of an extra voltage accros a capacitor,
                        which does not exist at a normal coil, because the counter flux compensates the applied voltage.
                        But the extra voltage can also be explained by the Faraday disc effect
                         (= circular currents in a magnetic field are forced to flow to the edge of the disc because of the Lorentz force in radial direction).
                        Beside of the self-induction there is also a self-Faraday-disc effect that might explain the extra voltage.
                        Therefore I think there is no higher capacitance, also because the pancake coil does not store charge better than a usual coil.
                        The statement: higher voltage means extra capacitance, is false.
                         
                        So, it could be that the inductance of the pancake coil is compensated partially by a self-Faraday disc effect.
                        Secondly, the pancake coil generates flux less efficiently than the ordinary coil,
                        and therefore the counter flux does not compensate totally the applied voltage.
                         
                        When the pancake coil has a double winding (in fact two pancake coils)  then that is like a pancake shaped tranformer
                        with inductive coupling. One pancake coil is both part of the primary as the secondary circuit, and of course there
                        is extra voltage across both pancake coils in serie.
                        This trick can be done also with a normal coil configuration.
                        A nice idea:  there is also a Faraday disc effect coupling between the two pancake coils.
                        There rings a new bell.
                         
                        Koen
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: BobW
                        Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 6:23 PM
                        Subject: [MEG_builders] Tesla coil as MEG gate

                        Koan et al
                         
                        Koan > Tesla did not explain why the pan-cake coil has a higher capacity per
                        winding than the ordinary coil.
                         
                        [Robert Winchester]   Tesla's patent # 512,340 pertains to a double wire pan-cake where the current flows through the first wire and then through the second wire thereby separating the two wires by half the voltage across the coil.  see diagram and description at http://www.keel net.com/teals/00512340.him . 
                         
                        Here I quote one paragraph from the patent:
                         
                        Tesla> In order to attain my object and to properly increase the capacity of any given coil, I wind it in such way as to secure a greater difference of potential between its adjacent turns or convolutions, and since the energy stored in the coil considering - the latter as a condenser, is proportionate to the square of the potential difference between its adjacent convolutions, it is evident that I may in this way secure by a proper disposition of these convolutions a greatly increased capacity for a given increase in potential difference between the turns.  This process of double wires could be continued to a multi-layer coil wound as a number of pan-cakes side by side.
                         
                        He was looking to store more energy per turn in a coil.
                         
                        Does capacitance and capacity mean the same thing here?
                         
                        I have seen solenoid winding instructions explain to wind left to right the first layer then cross back over to the left before winding layer two left to right with the claim that the flux per turn would be higher.  The text I recall was some professors notes on a basic electromagnetism class project.  Sounds like the Tesla idea at work.

                        Isn't it neat how Mr.. Tesla joined in the discussion above!


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                      • carbonprobe
                        Bob, I had the same exact thing happen to me on all 4 coils. I filed down the the edges, put a small piece of regular packaging tape right on the edges so they
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 23, 2002
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                          Bob, I had the same exact thing happen to me on all 4 coils. I filed
                          down the the edges, put a small piece of regular packaging tape right
                          on the edges so they were nice and rounded (2 layers). Then wound
                          about 4-6 layers of electrical tape around the whole thing. I even
                          reused the same wire on the secondaries except the first 200 windings
                          that were closest to the core. I cut that portion off and soldered
                          some new wire on and wrapped it with electrical tape. Now my MEG is
                          working fine. I'm trying to replicate Naudin's Meg3.0 exact. With
                          both secondaries unloaded I managed to get 3850 volts at each output
                          just to see how high it could go, I could have gone further but I
                          didn't for fear of something exploding. I'll be testing it with
                          different rated moves this weekend, I'll post my results when I get
                          some interesting numbers. But I will say one thing now, I've noticed
                          when I took the magnet out, I lost 300 volts on both outputs
                          combined. Input current and voltage stayed the same and output
                          current stayed the same (only measured output current on one side I
                          assumed the other side was the same, I'll do more detailed
                          measurements in a couple of days). when I put the magnet back in the
                          300 volts came back. But this only happened when the spacing between
                          the two halves of the core was .25 of an inch. When I put them back
                          together with about a half a millimeter gap taking out the magnet had
                          no effect.
                          Ken












                          --- In MEG_builders@y..., "BobW" <rwinches@t...> wrote:
                          > To one and all
                          >
                          > All 4 coils of my newly wound MEG coil are shorted to the Metglas
                          core which
                          > is a pretty darn good conductor of electricity. I waited till my
                          drive
                          > circuitry had trouble driving the MEG to get out the ohm meter…
                          >
                          > My excuse…I did not pay close enough attention that those edges
                          were so
                          > sharp they kept cutting my fingers when I was handling it before
                          putting the
                          > windings on but I did make sure each turn was wound very tight to
                          keep it
                          > looking pretty…^%*$@#.
                          >
                          > Were is not likely that I have several shorts on the first layer of
                          each
                          > coil I would just change the control strategy to allow one end of
                          each coil
                          > to be at DC ground but any Shorted turns are the death nail of any
                          > transformer and I am sure, even though it is a horse of a different
                          color
                          > transformer, the MEG will not Megavate with shorted turns.
                          >
                          > What will I do…. Remove all windings. Sand down corners. Put
                          layer of
                          > cardboard around core. Spend another 16 hours winding about 3lbs
                          of copper
                          > back on the core.
                          >
                          > Where is that hack saw!
                          >
                          > BobW
                        • BobW
                          Koen Koen: One has to read very carefully Teslas description. I think his description refers to the single wire pan-cake coil. Bob: Ok, but why did he show
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 25, 2002
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                            Koen

                             

                            Koen: One has to read very carefully Teslas description. I think his description refers to the single wire pan-cake coil.

                            Bob:   Ok, but why did he show the 2 wire pancake sketch in the patent?

                             

                            Koen: But the extra voltage can also be explained by the Faraday disc effect

                             (= circular currents in a magnetic field are forced to flow to the edge of the disc because of the Lorentz force in radial direction).

                            Bob:  I have never considered the Faraday effect without some mechanical rotation.  You are stretching my brain here.  I immediately agree that the field rotation is all that is needed.

                             

                             

                          • BobW
                            Carbonprobe BobW: Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Ken: I m trying to replicate Naudin s Meg3.0 exact. BobW: I have been trying to duplicate the
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 25, 2002
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                              Carbonprobe

                               

                              BobW: Thank you so much for sharing your experience. 

                               

                              Ken: I'm trying to replicate Naudin's Meg3.0 exact.

                              BobW: I have been trying to duplicate the description from the patent.  The 450 turns of #19 really fill up the core and in my opinion bring the flux gate coil and the output coil too close…but, I don’t really know if the MEG needs “through the air” coupling between these two coils.  I suspect that feedback from the output coil aids the input coil when the MEG is running but should the feedback coil come through the core or the air.  Also this choice of wire size prevents resonance at 40khz as shown in many scope images from previous Meg_builders.  My 450T output was resonant at 200khz.

                               

                              Ken: I'll post my results when I get some interesting numbers.

                              BobW: I especially am interested in seeing your scope traces for the output voltage and output current.  I presume you will trigger both sweeps with the same signal such as the drive to one of the coils.

                               

                              Ken: But I will say one thing now, I've noticed when I took the magnet out, I lost 300 volts on both outputs combined. Input current and voltage stayed the same and output
                              current stayed the same (only measured output current on one side I
                              assumed the other side was the same, I'll do more detailed
                              measurements in a couple of days). when I put the magnet  back in the
                              300 volts came back. But this only happened when the spacing between
                              the two halves of the core was .25 of an inch. When I put them back
                              together with about a half a millimeter gap taking out the magnet had
                              no effect.

                              BobW:  Do you think the magnet is providing a better flux path by bridging the gap.  If so, do you think what you really have is a 300v loss when the .25’ gap is present?

                               

                              I need you and others to help me understand the need for gaps.  Where and why? Bearden’s patent does not show gaps.  Any gap creates an external flux field which is contrary to Torroid transformer design.

                               

                              Have you decided how you will measure input power and output power?  This is made complex since the output is at such high voltage.

                               

                              Thanks Ken

                               

                            • Koen van Vlaenderen
                              Bob: Ok, but why did he show the 2 wire pancake sketch in the patent? Koen: because the two windings simply form a transformer (I suppose): a primary and a
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 25, 2002
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                                Bob:   Ok, but why did he show the 2 wire pancake sketch in the patent?

                                 

                                Koen: because the two windings simply form a transformer (I suppose): a primary and a secondary winding in each others flux.

                                This way one can double the voltage.

                                 

                                Koen: But the extra voltage can also be explained by the Faraday disc effect

                                 (= circular currents in a magnetic field are forced to flow to the edge of the disc because of the Lorentz force in radial direction).

                                Bob:  I have never considered the Faraday effect without some mechanical rotation.  You are stretching my brain here.  I immediately agree that the field rotation is all that is needed.

                                 

                                Koen:  I think you mean the relative rotating movement of the charge with respect to the field.

                                In a pancake coil the charge rotates in its own field, and the charge can also flows radially,  then in principle there can be a Faraday effect

                                responsible for an extra voltage.  The Faraday effect is the induction of an electrical potential between the center and edge

                                of a disc that rotates in a magnetic field.  The pancake coil induces a magnetic field perpendicular to the rotating current,

                                so all the ingredients for the Faraday disc effect are present.

                                 

                                 

                                But all this is only making sense, IF and only IF the MEG not only produces magnetic fields, but also a radial electric field.

                                This is what Bearden says   (non rotating A-potential) but he is not describing this theory in full detail.

                                I did this, and I also described the charge movement (ordering of the phase of circular currents) responsible

                                for the non-rotating A-potential.  Bearden also refers to Oliver Heaviside´s "undiverged" energy flow, which is a

                                longitudinal energy flow in the direction of current, not perpendicular to current like the Poynting flow.

                                Bearden claims that this energy flow is driving the MEG, and I think he is right.

                                But again the Heaviside energy flow is not defined mathematically, until I did just this.  It is simply  ES,  where E and S

                                are the electric and scalar fields.  By ordering the phases of the charge in circular motion, a radial current flow

                                is created, and an energy flow in the direction of this current is also radial, therefore can be absorbed or transmitted

                                in the form of longitudinal electro-scalar waves, at least in theory.

                                 

                                See   http://www.truth.myweb.nl/electrodynamics_secrets_IE.html  for the exact mathematical theory that Bearden does

                                not give you (or only in a most difficult way via references to many papers).

                                 

                                 

                                The best one can do is to look for the resonance frequency, and that can only be the natural orbit frequency of the

                                magnetically polarized charge in the MEG core. This frequency depends on the permanent magnet field strength.

                                The counter flux, induced by the input coil,  should have the effect of ordering the phases of all these little current loops

                                already present in the MEG core.

                                In Bearden´s own words: the MEG does not function as the usual transformer, and that means that not MORE dynamic

                                magnetic flux energy can be passed from input to output than the input energy itself.

                                Once the phases are ordered (not random anylonger) then a nett radial alternating current should be present, and therefore

                                also a nett radial alternating electric potential, which has the same frequency as the input signal.

                                The radial current is diverging/converging current, responsible for inducing also  S = - div(A),

                                and this is the non-rotating A potential in the form of a scalar field and with field energy  S².

                                 The Heaviside energy flow is ES, or expressed in A-potential:   div(A) d(A)/dt,

                                is absorbed by the MEG core as an extra energy input.

                                 

                                The essential idea is that order is created out of chaos with a smal input signal,

                                This is a reduction of entropy, and some new fields are induced.

                                 

                                At home I have the Honeywell Metglas cores, but I have not had time to experiment.

                                Hopefully in my vacation after 2 weeks from now, I should be able to begin.

                                 

                                Koen van Vlaenderen

                                 

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