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Scheme of control board

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  • mcpingvin
    Hello everybody!I m new into this MEG stuff,so I need some help.. I have finnaly acquired some parts for MEG(that would be an magnet and an core operating on
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 16, 2006
      Hello everybody!I'm new into this MEG stuff,so I need some help..

      I have finnaly acquired some parts for MEG(that would be an magnet and
      an core operating on 20kHz)
      Is that OK for an cca. 300W output?
      Can someone send me a scheme of control board for MEG,because I found
      couple of those but neither of them was good.

      Thx!
    • softwarelabus
      @All I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will not exhibit the free energy. Therefore most ferrite cores will not work. Iron powder
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 16, 2006
        @All
        I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will not
        exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will not
        work. Iron powder core is another story. You want nanocrystalline and
        amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
        presently a quick job -->

        http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM

        You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas versions use
        Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of capturing MCE
        energy. This information is not based on unproven theories. Rather,
        it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
        physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
        extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly what is
        happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.

        Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy exchanges. For
        example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that nanocrystalline
        material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth MCE as Gd
        alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline material
        toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to generate
        internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
        second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power required to
        generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such material is
        but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a fraction
        of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
        nanocrystalline magnetic core material.

        There are several problems here. The main problem being that magnetic
        material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another issue is
        in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as in the
        above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall iron
        cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that MCE energy
        is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
        attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is extremely
        difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to overcome
        this, as detailed in my wiki.

        What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard one late
        night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I stood
        back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"

        I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered Naudin
        incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly analyzing the
        scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
        concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I went to
        his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free energy."
        Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that either
        he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
        malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate so many
        other people at other sites have published false science regarding
        Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in private PM
        about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you cannot
        dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
        malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other words, if
        we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz signal on
        say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the 400 MHz
        signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz signal
        was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then knowing my
        physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous amounts of
        energy.

        In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
        exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.

        Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely published "smoking
        gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be released
        with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com links at the
        bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
        process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more pleased
        if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
        self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a great day!

        Kind regards,
        Paul Lowrance
      • richar18
        Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further, I also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect as a part of his work. It
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 17, 2006
          Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further, I
          also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect as a
          part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated the
          energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of iron evenly
          permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that with the
          energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy generated
          as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field. Seems
          like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate the 1st
          law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism that
          allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I did not
          quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.

          --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
          <softwarelabus@...> wrote:
          >
          > @All
          > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will not
          > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will not
          > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want nanocrystalline
          and
          > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
          > presently a quick job -->
          >
          > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
          >
          > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas versions
          use
          > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of capturing MCE
          > energy. This information is not based on unproven theories. Rather,
          > it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
          > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
          > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly what is
          > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
          >
          > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy exchanges.
          For
          > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that nanocrystalline
          > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth MCE as
          Gd
          > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline material
          > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to generate
          > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
          > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power required to
          > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such material
          is
          > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a
          fraction
          > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
          > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
          >
          > There are several problems here. The main problem being that
          magnetic
          > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another issue is
          > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as in the
          > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall iron
          > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that MCE
          energy
          > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
          > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is
          extremely
          > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to overcome
          > this, as detailed in my wiki.
          >
          > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard one
          late
          > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I stood
          > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"
          >
          > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered
          Naudin
          > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly analyzing the
          > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
          > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I went to
          > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free energy."
          > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that
          either
          > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
          > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate so
          many
          > other people at other sites have published false science regarding
          > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in private PM
          > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you cannot
          > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
          > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other words, if
          > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz signal on
          > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the 400 MHz
          > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz signal
          > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then knowing my
          > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous amounts of
          > energy.
          >
          > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
          > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
          >
          > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
          published "smoking
          > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be
          released
          > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com links at
          the
          > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
          > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more
          pleased
          > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
          > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a great
          day!
          >
          > Kind regards,
          > Paul Lowrance
          >
        • richar18
          You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into incorrectly calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization. Read on to find out why.
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 17, 2006
            You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into incorrectly
            calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization. Read on
            to find out why.

            According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric effect is
            due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron molecules in the
            presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in entropy
            (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the field is
            removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important to
            understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on in the
            system from an energetic point of view.

            Now, look a little closer at the specific heat of the iron, before
            and after magnetization. Excess energy can only be generated if we
            assume the specific heat of the sample stays above a certain
            threshold. Does this happen in our case? I dont believe so! The
            reason is that the specific heat is also DEPENDANT UPON THE DEGREE OF
            FREEDOM OF THE MOLECULES THAT MAKE UP THE SAMPLE! The less degrees of
            freedom, the less energy the molecule can absorb without increasing
            its rate of vibration (and the resulting temperature of the mat'l).
            This known, you can probably predict what I am going to say next -
            That the energy generated as heat only APPEARS to be greater than the
            energy of the magnetic field! My hypothesis is that it is actually
            not, because the specific heat decreases proportionally to the change
            in entropy.

            I believe this is the calculation that links molecular entropy to
            specific heat: Cp = T(del_S/del_T). (S = entropy, T = absolute temp)

            Anyone?

            --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further, I
            > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect as a
            > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated the
            > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of iron
            evenly
            > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that with the
            > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
            generated
            > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field. Seems
            > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate the 1st
            > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism that
            > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I did not
            > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
            >
            > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
            > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
            > >
            > > @All
            > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will not
            > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will not
            > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want nanocrystalline
            > and
            > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
            > > presently a quick job -->
            > >
            > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
            > >
            > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas
            versions
            > use
            > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of capturing
            MCE
            > > energy. This information is not based on unproven theories.
            Rather,
            > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
            > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
            > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly what
            is
            > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
            > >
            > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
            exchanges.
            > For
            > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
            nanocrystalline
            > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth MCE
            as
            > Gd
            > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline
            material
            > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to
            generate
            > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
            > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power required
            to
            > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such
            material
            > is
            > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a
            > fraction
            > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
            > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
            > >
            > > There are several problems here. The main problem being that
            > magnetic
            > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another issue
            is
            > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as in
            the
            > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall iron
            > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that MCE
            > energy
            > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
            > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is
            > extremely
            > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to
            overcome
            > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
            > >
            > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard one
            > late
            > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I
            stood
            > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"
            > >
            > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered
            > Naudin
            > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly analyzing
            the
            > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
            > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I went
            to
            > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free energy."
            > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that
            > either
            > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
            > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate so
            > many
            > > other people at other sites have published false science regarding
            > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in private PM
            > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you cannot
            > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
            > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other words,
            if
            > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz signal
            on
            > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the 400
            MHz
            > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz
            signal
            > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then knowing my
            > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous amounts
            of
            > > energy.
            > >
            > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
            > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
            > >
            > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
            > published "smoking
            > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be
            > released
            > > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com links
            at
            > the
            > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
            > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more
            > pleased
            > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
            > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a
            great
            > day!
            > >
            > > Kind regards,
            > > Paul Lowrance
            > >
            >
          • softwarelabus
            Hi richar18, There are several methods. Method #1 is the easiest. Normally MCE (magnetocaloric effect) heats up, cools down, etc. In electrical conductors such
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 17, 2006
              Hi richar18,

              There are several methods. Method #1 is the easiest. Normally MCE
              (magnetocaloric effect) heats up, cools down, etc. In electrical
              conductors such as iron and Metglas a lot of the MCE energy goes to
              micro eddy current bursts. Normally the eddy currents dissipate all
              the energy in the form of heat. If you pulse the core at the correct
              speed you will get a _coherent_ avalanche pulse. IOW, the avalanches
              are occurring at roughly the same time. You'll get eddy currents. When
              the Eddy currents reach peak then your receiving coil will attempt to
              rob as much energy from the Eddy currents. You do this by placing a
              load across the coil.

              Picture a nano size group of atoms that flip. There are many factors
              that determine the flip rate such as magnetic field strength, but free
              electrons plays a huge role. The free electrons act as inductance,
              resist the flipping magnetic moments. (You can see this effect by
              dropping a neo magnet down a hollow Al tube.) This gives a micro eddy
              burst. So you could say its like a microscopic coil around the
              avalanche, which is a good thing so as to collect a high percentage of
              the MCE energy.

              Under normal conditions you have millions of micro eddy currents that
              are simultaneously increasing and decreasing all over the place within
              the core. In other words, the bursts are not coherent. Micro eddy
              bursts do not last very long, which is why you need to pulse the core
              fast enough and then quickly absorb some energy from the eddy
              currents. Although, when the eddy currents occur at the same time then
              the bursts decay at a much slower rate, which is a good thing.

              Where the energy comes from is fascinating. Without ambient
              temperature (vibrating atoms) magnetic material would align (saturate)
              and that's the end of the story. Even when you remove the applied
              field the core would remain magnetized. It is vibrating atoms that
              give low coercivity. So when you remove the applied field it is the
              atoms that _force_ the magnetic moments to break alignment with the
              net magnetic field. That requires energy, which is exactly why
              magnetic materials cool down when the applied field is removed. That
              is where MCE energy comes from. Even the NASA guy who contacted me agreed.


              Trying to compute the energy relative to the field strength is perhaps
              not the correct method. Consider two PM's each on swivels, so they can
              rotate. The PM's are rotated so they repel each other. The magnetic
              fields cancel each other, so the net magnetic field is relatively low,
              just within close proximity of each PM. Now allow the PM's to quickly
              rotate so they align. You get energy _plus_ you get a net magnetic
              field, lol. Magnetic moments also rotate as IBM's experiments
              revealed. Normally this flip/rotation rate takes a few nanoseconds,
              but in electrically conductive materials such as iron and metglas it
              takes many microseconds.

              Regards,
              Paul Lowrance


              --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further, I
              > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect as a
              > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated the
              > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of iron evenly
              > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that with the
              > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy generated
              > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field. Seems
              > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate the 1st
              > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism that
              > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I did not
              > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
              >
              > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
              > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
              > >
              > > @All
              > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will not
              > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will not
              > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want nanocrystalline
              > and
              > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
              > > presently a quick job -->
              > >
              > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
              > >
              > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas versions
              > use
              > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of capturing MCE
              > > energy. This information is not based on unproven theories. Rather,
              > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
              > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
              > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly what is
              > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
              > >
              > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy exchanges.
              > For
              > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that nanocrystalline
              > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth MCE as
              > Gd
              > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline material
              > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to generate
              > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
              > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power required to
              > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such material
              > is
              > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a
              > fraction
              > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
              > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
              > >
              > > There are several problems here. The main problem being that
              > magnetic
              > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another issue is
              > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as in the
              > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall iron
              > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that MCE
              > energy
              > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
              > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is
              > extremely
              > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to overcome
              > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
              > >
              > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard one
              > late
              > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I stood
              > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"
              > >
              > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered
              > Naudin
              > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly analyzing the
              > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
              > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I went to
              > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free energy."
              > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that
              > either
              > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
              > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate so
              > many
              > > other people at other sites have published false science regarding
              > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in private PM
              > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you cannot
              > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
              > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other words, if
              > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz signal on
              > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the 400 MHz
              > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz signal
              > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then knowing my
              > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous amounts of
              > > energy.
              > >
              > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
              > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
              > >
              > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
              > published "smoking
              > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be
              > released
              > > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com links at
              > the
              > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
              > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more
              > pleased
              > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
              > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a great
              > day!
              > >
              > > Kind regards,
              > > Paul Lowrance
              > >
              >
            • richar18
              Sorry, I meant the entropy of the sample TRIES to DECREASE when the field is applied. However if the conditions are adiabatic, the entropy does not change due
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 18, 2006
                Sorry, I meant the entropy of the sample TRIES to DECREASE when the
                field is applied. However if the conditions are adiabatic, the
                entropy does not change due to the increase in temperature of the
                sample (hence the effect). Under isothermal conditions, the entropy
                of the sample DOES actually decrease, because of the heat transfer
                to the environment.

                Essentially what is going on is that the dynamics of the molecular
                structure of the mat'l change under the influence of a magnetic
                field; this change is characterized by a reduction in the molecular
                degrees of freedom. Since the molecular degrees of freedom reduce,
                two things can happen: 1) the entropy also reduces proportionately,
                due to the presence of a heat sink and an open system, or 2) The
                entropy remains unchanged due to adiabatic conditions and a closed
                system - the temperature rises to compensate for the change in
                molecular degrees of freedom.

                You see, In order to conserve energy when the entropy of the
                molecules tries to decrease, the 2nd law of thermodynamics causes
                the temperature of the sample to rise (under adiabatic conditions
                and a closed system, as previously stated). This effectively cancels
                the effort to destroy entropy in the closed system, thus thwarting
                the creation of energy.

                So there is no excess energy after all, and the laws of
                thermodynamics are what actually cause the magnetocaloric effect to
                happen in the first place! Kind of dissapointing... All you have is
                another way to convert the energy of a magnetic field into heat.


                --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                >
                > You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into
                incorrectly
                > calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization. Read
                on
                > to find out why.
                >
                > According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric effect
                is
                > due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron molecules in
                the
                > presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in entropy
                > (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the field
                is
                > removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important to
                > understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on in the
                > system from an energetic point of view.
                >
                > Now, look a little closer at the specific heat of the iron, before
                > and after magnetization. Excess energy can only be generated if we
                > assume the specific heat of the sample stays above a certain
                > threshold. Does this happen in our case? I dont believe so! The
                > reason is that the specific heat is also DEPENDANT UPON THE DEGREE
                OF
                > FREEDOM OF THE MOLECULES THAT MAKE UP THE SAMPLE! The less degrees
                of
                > freedom, the less energy the molecule can absorb without
                increasing
                > its rate of vibration (and the resulting temperature of the
                mat'l).
                > This known, you can probably predict what I am going to say next -

                > That the energy generated as heat only APPEARS to be greater than
                the
                > energy of the magnetic field! My hypothesis is that it is actually
                > not, because the specific heat decreases proportionally to the
                change
                > in entropy.
                >
                > I believe this is the calculation that links molecular entropy to
                > specific heat: Cp = T(del_S/del_T). (S = entropy, T = absolute
                temp)
                >
                > Anyone?
                >
                > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further,
                I
                > > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect
                as a
                > > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated the
                > > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of iron
                > evenly
                > > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that with
                the
                > > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
                > generated
                > > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field.
                Seems
                > > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate the
                1st
                > > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism that
                > > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I did
                not
                > > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
                > >
                > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                > > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > @All
                > > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will
                not
                > > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will
                not
                > > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want
                nanocrystalline
                > > and
                > > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
                > > > presently a quick job -->
                > > >
                > > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
                > > >
                > > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas
                > versions
                > > use
                > > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of
                capturing
                > MCE
                > > > energy. This information is not based on unproven theories.
                > Rather,
                > > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
                > > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
                > > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly
                what
                > is
                > > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
                > > >
                > > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
                > exchanges.
                > > For
                > > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
                > nanocrystalline
                > > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth
                MCE
                > as
                > > Gd
                > > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline
                > material
                > > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to
                > generate
                > > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
                > > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power
                required
                > to
                > > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such
                > material
                > > is
                > > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a
                > > fraction
                > > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
                > > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
                > > >
                > > > There are several problems here. The main problem being that
                > > magnetic
                > > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another
                issue
                > is
                > > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as
                in
                > the
                > > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall
                iron
                > > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that
                MCE
                > > energy
                > > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
                > > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is
                > > extremely
                > > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to
                > overcome
                > > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
                > > >
                > > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard
                one
                > > late
                > > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I
                > stood
                > > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"
                > > >
                > > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered
                > > Naudin
                > > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly
                analyzing
                > the
                > > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
                > > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I
                went
                > to
                > > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free
                energy."
                > > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that
                > > either
                > > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
                > > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate
                so
                > > many
                > > > other people at other sites have published false science
                regarding
                > > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in
                private PM
                > > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you
                cannot
                > > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
                > > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other
                words,
                > if
                > > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz
                signal
                > on
                > > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the
                400
                > MHz
                > > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz
                > signal
                > > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then
                knowing my
                > > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous
                amounts
                > of
                > > > energy.
                > > >
                > > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
                > > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
                > > >
                > > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
                > > published "smoking
                > > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be
                > > released
                > > > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com
                links
                > at
                > > the
                > > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
                > > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more
                > > pleased
                > > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
                > > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a
                > great
                > > day!
                > > >
                > > > Kind regards,
                > > > Paul Lowrance
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • softwarelabus
                Hi richar18, The energy contained in the magnetic field of a magnetized core is not represented by the energy consumed by the coil/circuit. For example,
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 18, 2006
                  Hi richar18,

                  The energy contained in the magnetic field of a magnetized core is not
                  represented by the energy consumed by the coil/circuit. For example,
                  consider material with twice the permeability & same dimensions and
                  you'll see it requires half the energy to bring such material to the
                  same magnetic field intensity.

                  Yes there is a change in specific heat due to MCE, but it is known
                  this can increase as well as decrease depending on the material and
                  conditions.

                  You cannot discount the fact there is energy release when the magnetic
                  moments align.

                  I'll add further comments below :

                  --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                  > You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into incorrectly
                  > calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization. Read on
                  > to find out why.
                  >
                  > According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric effect is
                  > due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron molecules in the
                  > presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in entropy
                  > (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the field is
                  > removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important to
                  > understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on in the
                  > system from an energetic point of view.

                  The guy from NASA disagrees with the above theory and agreed with my
                  theory as to why it cools. He clarified that the vibrating atoms knock
                  the magnetic moments out of alignment, which requires energy and cools
                  the material.

                  Furthermore, your above theory does not work on nanocrystalline
                  magnetic materials, which indeed are saturated on the domain level,
                  but still exhibit strong MCE roughly 10,000 to 100,000 times stronger
                  than ferrites, iron, and other magnetic materials, and only 1/4th of
                  the best Gd alloys, which my theory all predicts.

                  If I am in error then please point out the error.

                  Regards,
                  Paul Lowrance
                • richar18
                  This reply is only geared towards the comment regarding the energy it takes to magnetize with respect to permeability. I will respond to the excess MCE energy
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 18, 2006
                    This reply is only geared towards the comment regarding the energy it
                    takes to magnetize with respect to permeability. I will respond to
                    the excess MCE energy later:

                    It is a misnomer that it takes half the energy to generate the same
                    magnetic field within a mat'l of twice the permeability. Lets first
                    use a coil/core as an example. The greater the permeability of the
                    core, the higher the inductance of the system. The higher the
                    inductance, the more voltage is required to generate the same
                    magnetic field, albeit with proportionally less current. The energy
                    consumed by the coil is the same regardless of the core permeability.

                    Another way to look at it is to identify the force it takes to detach
                    a magnet from a piece of magnetic mat'l. The energy inside the
                    magnetic mat'l due to the magnetizing field is equal to the energy it
                    will take to seperate the magnet from the mat'l over a distance until
                    the force of attraction equals zero. This energy rises with
                    permeability, because the force vs distance increases in proportion
                    to the permeability.

                    I would like to stress that if permeability increases, it takes the
                    SAME amount of energy to generate the same field within a mat'l of
                    the same dimensions.

                    Now regarding specific heat, what mat'ls show a rise in Cp under
                    influence of a magnetic field? Because I would be inclined to think
                    that they cool, instead of heat.

                    --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                    <softwarelabus@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi richar18,
                    >
                    > There are several methods. Method #1 is the easiest. Normally MCE
                    > (magnetocaloric effect) heats up, cools down, etc. In electrical
                    > conductors such as iron and Metglas a lot of the MCE energy goes to
                    > micro eddy current bursts. Normally the eddy currents dissipate all
                    > the energy in the form of heat. If you pulse the core at the correct
                    > speed you will get a _coherent_ avalanche pulse. IOW, the avalanches
                    > are occurring at roughly the same time. You'll get eddy currents.
                    When
                    > the Eddy currents reach peak then your receiving coil will attempt
                    to
                    > rob as much energy from the Eddy currents. You do this by placing a
                    > load across the coil.
                    >
                    > Picture a nano size group of atoms that flip. There are many factors
                    > that determine the flip rate such as magnetic field strength, but
                    free
                    > electrons plays a huge role. The free electrons act as inductance,
                    > resist the flipping magnetic moments. (You can see this effect by
                    > dropping a neo magnet down a hollow Al tube.) This gives a micro
                    eddy
                    > burst. So you could say its like a microscopic coil around the
                    > avalanche, which is a good thing so as to collect a high percentage
                    of
                    > the MCE energy.
                    >
                    > Under normal conditions you have millions of micro eddy currents
                    that
                    > are simultaneously increasing and decreasing all over the place
                    within
                    > the core. In other words, the bursts are not coherent. Micro eddy
                    > bursts do not last very long, which is why you need to pulse the
                    core
                    > fast enough and then quickly absorb some energy from the eddy
                    > currents. Although, when the eddy currents occur at the same time
                    then
                    > the bursts decay at a much slower rate, which is a good thing.
                    >
                    > Where the energy comes from is fascinating. Without ambient
                    > temperature (vibrating atoms) magnetic material would align
                    (saturate)
                    > and that's the end of the story. Even when you remove the applied
                    > field the core would remain magnetized. It is vibrating atoms that
                    > give low coercivity. So when you remove the applied field it is the
                    > atoms that _force_ the magnetic moments to break alignment with the
                    > net magnetic field. That requires energy, which is exactly why
                    > magnetic materials cool down when the applied field is removed. That
                    > is where MCE energy comes from. Even the NASA guy who contacted me
                    agreed.
                    >
                    >
                    > Trying to compute the energy relative to the field strength is
                    perhaps
                    > not the correct method. Consider two PM's each on swivels, so they
                    can
                    > rotate. The PM's are rotated so they repel each other. The magnetic
                    > fields cancel each other, so the net magnetic field is relatively
                    low,
                    > just within close proximity of each PM. Now allow the PM's to
                    quickly
                    > rotate so they align. You get energy _plus_ you get a net magnetic
                    > field, lol. Magnetic moments also rotate as IBM's experiments
                    > revealed. Normally this flip/rotation rate takes a few nanoseconds,
                    > but in electrically conductive materials such as iron and metglas it
                    > takes many microseconds.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Paul Lowrance
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further,
                    I
                    > > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect as
                    a
                    > > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated the
                    > > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of iron
                    evenly
                    > > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that with
                    the
                    > > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
                    generated
                    > > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field.
                    Seems
                    > > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate the
                    1st
                    > > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism that
                    > > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I did
                    not
                    > > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
                    > >
                    > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                    > > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > @All
                    > > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will
                    not
                    > > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will
                    not
                    > > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want
                    nanocrystalline
                    > > and
                    > > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
                    > > > presently a quick job -->
                    > > >
                    > > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
                    > > >
                    > > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas
                    versions
                    > > use
                    > > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of capturing
                    MCE
                    > > > energy. This information is not based on unproven theories.
                    Rather,
                    > > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
                    > > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
                    > > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly
                    what is
                    > > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
                    > > >
                    > > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
                    exchanges.
                    > > For
                    > > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
                    nanocrystalline
                    > > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth
                    MCE as
                    > > Gd
                    > > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline
                    material
                    > > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to
                    generate
                    > > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
                    > > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power
                    required to
                    > > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such
                    material
                    > > is
                    > > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a
                    > > fraction
                    > > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
                    > > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
                    > > >
                    > > > There are several problems here. The main problem being that
                    > > magnetic
                    > > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another
                    issue is
                    > > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as
                    in the
                    > > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall
                    iron
                    > > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that MCE
                    > > energy
                    > > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
                    > > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is
                    > > extremely
                    > > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to
                    overcome
                    > > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
                    > > >
                    > > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard
                    one
                    > > late
                    > > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I
                    stood
                    > > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"
                    > > >
                    > > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered
                    > > Naudin
                    > > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly
                    analyzing the
                    > > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
                    > > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I
                    went to
                    > > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free
                    energy."
                    > > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that
                    > > either
                    > > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
                    > > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate
                    so
                    > > many
                    > > > other people at other sites have published false science
                    regarding
                    > > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in private
                    PM
                    > > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you cannot
                    > > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
                    > > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other
                    words, if
                    > > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz
                    signal on
                    > > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the
                    400 MHz
                    > > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz
                    signal
                    > > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then knowing
                    my
                    > > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous
                    amounts of
                    > > > energy.
                    > > >
                    > > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
                    > > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
                    > > >
                    > > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
                    > > published "smoking
                    > > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be
                    > > released
                    > > > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com links
                    at
                    > > the
                    > > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
                    > > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more
                    > > pleased
                    > > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
                    > > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a
                    great
                    > > day!
                    > > >
                    > > > Kind regards,
                    > > > Paul Lowrance
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • softwarelabus
                    Hi richar18, You have math errors in one of your previous posts. First, the energy in a magnetic field is B*V/(2*u0) B is in Tesla s, V=cubic meters, u0 is
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 18, 2006
                      Hi richar18,

                      You have math errors in one of your previous posts. First, the energy
                      in a magnetic field is B*V/(2*u0) B is in Tesla's, V=cubic meters, u0
                      is permeability of free space.

                      If you would like to understand where the energy is coming from then
                      you need to ask a few questions.

                      1) Consider very cold magnetic material, say pure iron, at a few 0 K.
                      The magnetic moments self align with no aid. How much energy does it
                      require to break those alignments? Even NASA knows its ambient
                      temperature that breaks the magnetic alignment, which cools the
                      material. Has nothing to do with your idea.
                      2) How much energy is given off when all the magnetic moments are
                      aligned? Even a disinformationist could not deny this energy. Well,
                      maybe they could. :-)
                      3) Ask yourself why it is common for MCE to suddenly produce very
                      little change in temperature when a certain temperature is reached.
                      4) Ask yourself why iron exhibits very little MCE even if you were to
                      apply a 60 T field.
                      5) Nearly all the magnetic moments in iron are saturated on the domain
                      level, but experiences hardly no MCE. Yet nanocrystalline is also
                      saturated on the domain level, but experiences large MCE. Were you
                      aware that most of the Finemet atoms are already saturated on the
                      domain level, yet Finemet has 1/4 MCE as the best Gd alloys.
                      6) MCE is real temperature change, not an illusion. It's used as deep
                      freezing. Apply 1 T field to Finemet core and you get 1 K change in
                      temperature. Did you know the heat capacity changes roughly 1/500th
                      (0.2%)? Now you have material that's 1 K above room temperature. You
                      calculate how much energy it require to increase 1 cubic inch of that
                      material by 1 K. :-) How about 450 J/KgK * 1.0K * 0.13Kg = 59 Joules.
                      I'll repeat, it requires ~59 J to heat that material by 1 K. Repeat,
                      the heat capacity of the magnetic only changes ~0.2%.
                      7) How much are they paying you to spread disinformation, lol. Just
                      kidding ... I think. ;-)

                      richar18, would you care to share your name or are you going to ignore
                      me for like the fourth time and converse with yourself? You asked me a
                      lot of questions and then ignore me. :-)

                      God bless you,
                      Paul Lowrance



                      --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                      > Sorry, I meant the entropy of the sample TRIES to DECREASE when the
                      > field is applied. However if the conditions are adiabatic, the
                      > entropy does not change due to the increase in temperature of the
                      > sample (hence the effect). Under isothermal conditions, the entropy
                      > of the sample DOES actually decrease, because of the heat transfer
                      > to the environment.
                      >
                      > Essentially what is going on is that the dynamics of the molecular
                      > structure of the mat'l change under the influence of a magnetic
                      > field; this change is characterized by a reduction in the molecular
                      > degrees of freedom. Since the molecular degrees of freedom reduce,
                      > two things can happen: 1) the entropy also reduces proportionately,
                      > due to the presence of a heat sink and an open system, or 2) The
                      > entropy remains unchanged due to adiabatic conditions and a closed
                      > system - the temperature rises to compensate for the change in
                      > molecular degrees of freedom.
                      >
                      > You see, In order to conserve energy when the entropy of the
                      > molecules tries to decrease, the 2nd law of thermodynamics causes
                      > the temperature of the sample to rise (under adiabatic conditions
                      > and a closed system, as previously stated). This effectively cancels
                      > the effort to destroy entropy in the closed system, thus thwarting
                      > the creation of energy.
                      >
                      > So there is no excess energy after all, and the laws of
                      > thermodynamics are what actually cause the magnetocaloric effect to
                      > happen in the first place! Kind of dissapointing... All you have is
                      > another way to convert the energy of a magnetic field into heat.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into
                      > incorrectly
                      > > calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization. Read
                      > on
                      > > to find out why.
                      > >
                      > > According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric effect
                      > is
                      > > due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron molecules in
                      > the
                      > > presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in entropy
                      > > (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the field
                      > is
                      > > removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important to
                      > > understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on in the
                      > > system from an energetic point of view.
                      > >
                      > > Now, look a little closer at the specific heat of the iron, before
                      > > and after magnetization. Excess energy can only be generated if we
                      > > assume the specific heat of the sample stays above a certain
                      > > threshold. Does this happen in our case? I dont believe so! The
                      > > reason is that the specific heat is also DEPENDANT UPON THE DEGREE
                      > OF
                      > > FREEDOM OF THE MOLECULES THAT MAKE UP THE SAMPLE! The less degrees
                      > of
                      > > freedom, the less energy the molecule can absorb without
                      > increasing
                      > > its rate of vibration (and the resulting temperature of the
                      > mat'l).
                      > > This known, you can probably predict what I am going to say next -
                      >
                      > > That the energy generated as heat only APPEARS to be greater than
                      > the
                      > > energy of the magnetic field! My hypothesis is that it is actually
                      > > not, because the specific heat decreases proportionally to the
                      > change
                      > > in entropy.
                      > >
                      > > I believe this is the calculation that links molecular entropy to
                      > > specific heat: Cp = T(del_S/del_T). (S = entropy, T = absolute
                      > temp)
                      > >
                      > > Anyone?
                      > >
                      > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little further,
                      > I
                      > > > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric effect
                      > as a
                      > > > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated the
                      > > > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of iron
                      > > evenly
                      > > > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that with
                      > the
                      > > > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
                      > > generated
                      > > > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field.
                      > Seems
                      > > > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate the
                      > 1st
                      > > > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism that
                      > > > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I did
                      > not
                      > > > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                      > > > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > @All
                      > > > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores will
                      > not
                      > > > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores will
                      > not
                      > > > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want
                      > nanocrystalline
                      > > > and
                      > > > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit it is
                      > > > > presently a quick job -->
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
                      > > > >
                      > > > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas
                      > > versions
                      > > > use
                      > > > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of
                      > capturing
                      > > MCE
                      > > > > energy. This information is not based on unproven theories.
                      > > Rather,
                      > > > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known conventional
                      > > > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go through
                      > > > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining exactly
                      > what
                      > > is
                      > > > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
                      > > exchanges.
                      > > > For
                      > > > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
                      > > nanocrystalline
                      > > > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one fourth
                      > MCE
                      > > as
                      > > > Gd
                      > > > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good nanocrystalline
                      > > material
                      > > > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field to
                      > > generate
                      > > > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules in one
                      > > > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power
                      > required
                      > > to
                      > > > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such
                      > > material
                      > > > is
                      > > > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but a
                      > > > fraction
                      > > > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within the
                      > > > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There are several problems here. The main problem being that
                      > > > magnetic
                      > > > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy. Another
                      > issue
                      > > is
                      > > > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts as
                      > in
                      > > the
                      > > > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in typicall
                      > iron
                      > > > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of that
                      > MCE
                      > > > energy
                      > > > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore such
                      > > > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron is
                      > > > extremely
                      > > > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques to
                      > > overcome
                      > > > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the backyard
                      > one
                      > > > late
                      > > > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE theory. I
                      > > stood
                      > > > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the MEG!!!"
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and discovered
                      > > > Naudin
                      > > > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly
                      > analyzing
                      > > the
                      > > > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by pixel I
                      > > > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then I
                      > went
                      > > to
                      > > > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free
                      > energy."
                      > > > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude that
                      > > > either
                      > > > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
                      > > > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is unfortunate
                      > so
                      > > > many
                      > > > > other people at other sites have published false science
                      > regarding
                      > > > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in
                      > private PM
                      > > > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you
                      > cannot
                      > > > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
                      > > > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other
                      > words,
                      > > if
                      > > > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz
                      > signal
                      > > on
                      > > > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out the
                      > 400
                      > > MHz
                      > > > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400 MHz
                      > > signal
                      > > > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then
                      > knowing my
                      > > > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous
                      > amounts
                      > > of
                      > > > > energy.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed did not
                      > > > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
                      > > > published "smoking
                      > > > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will be
                      > > > released
                      > > > > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com
                      > links
                      > > at
                      > > > the
                      > > > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the release
                      > > > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be more
                      > > > pleased
                      > > > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not about
                      > > > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be a
                      > > great
                      > > > day!
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Kind regards,
                      > > > > Paul Lowrance
                    • richar18
                      Sorry Paul, My name is Brandon. Didnt mean to ignore you, anonymity has become a habit when posting on these groups. I need to keep this short I am at work.
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                        Sorry Paul, My name is Brandon. Didnt mean to ignore you, anonymity
                        has become a habit when posting on these groups.

                        I need to keep this short I am at work.

                        Your formula for magnetic field energy is not quite correct, you
                        forgot to square "B". It is (B^2*V)/(2u0). I know the formula well,
                        I will have to double check my math for simple errors if the answer
                        is not right :).

                        What I stated regarding the Magnetocaloric effect was not my idea,
                        but is based on existing scientific research on the matter. I did
                        not know about the effect before you posted about it. I am not
                        spreading disinformation, just stating a null hypothesis. Please
                        prove it wrong (with actual testing), as I would like this to be
                        real as much as anyone.

                        I know there is a real temp change, but did NOT know that the Cp
                        only changed by 1/500th. IF this is true, then I will have a very
                        hard time providing any theoretical evidence against the excess
                        energy claim. How do you know this is the case?

                        I just wanted someone with more knowledge on the subject than myself
                        to look into the relationship between specific heat and MCE temp
                        change. Have you done any experimentation to show this excess
                        energy? I know there is a device that measures the Cp of a mat'l
                        undergoing the MCE. Wonder how easily it would be to get ahold of
                        one of these? proving the specific heat stays relatively constant
                        would be very good ammo for the proof of the excess energy.

                        Regards,
                        Brandon

                        --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                        <softwarelabus@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi richar18,
                        >
                        > You have math errors in one of your previous posts. First, the
                        energy
                        > in a magnetic field is B*V/(2*u0) B is in Tesla's, V=cubic
                        meters, u0
                        > is permeability of free space.
                        >
                        > If you would like to understand where the energy is coming from
                        then
                        > you need to ask a few questions.
                        >
                        > 1) Consider very cold magnetic material, say pure iron, at a few 0
                        K.
                        > The magnetic moments self align with no aid. How much energy does
                        it
                        > require to break those alignments? Even NASA knows its ambient
                        > temperature that breaks the magnetic alignment, which cools the
                        > material. Has nothing to do with your idea.
                        > 2) How much energy is given off when all the magnetic moments are
                        > aligned? Even a disinformationist could not deny this energy. Well,
                        > maybe they could. :-)
                        > 3) Ask yourself why it is common for MCE to suddenly produce very
                        > little change in temperature when a certain temperature is reached.
                        > 4) Ask yourself why iron exhibits very little MCE even if you were
                        to
                        > apply a 60 T field.
                        > 5) Nearly all the magnetic moments in iron are saturated on the
                        domain
                        > level, but experiences hardly no MCE. Yet nanocrystalline is also
                        > saturated on the domain level, but experiences large MCE. Were you
                        > aware that most of the Finemet atoms are already saturated on the
                        > domain level, yet Finemet has 1/4 MCE as the best Gd alloys.
                        > 6) MCE is real temperature change, not an illusion. It's used as
                        deep
                        > freezing. Apply 1 T field to Finemet core and you get 1 K change in
                        > temperature. Did you know the heat capacity changes roughly 1/500th
                        > (0.2%)? Now you have material that's 1 K above room temperature.
                        You
                        > calculate how much energy it require to increase 1 cubic inch of
                        that
                        > material by 1 K. :-) How about 450 J/KgK * 1.0K * 0.13Kg = 59
                        Joules.
                        > I'll repeat, it requires ~59 J to heat that material by 1 K.
                        Repeat,
                        > the heat capacity of the magnetic only changes ~0.2%.
                        > 7) How much are they paying you to spread disinformation, lol.
                        Just
                        > kidding ... I think. ;-)
                        >
                        > richar18, would you care to share your name or are you going to
                        ignore
                        > me for like the fourth time and converse with yourself? You asked
                        me a
                        > lot of questions and then ignore me. :-)
                        >
                        > God bless you,
                        > Paul Lowrance
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@> wrote:
                        > > Sorry, I meant the entropy of the sample TRIES to DECREASE when
                        the
                        > > field is applied. However if the conditions are adiabatic, the
                        > > entropy does not change due to the increase in temperature of
                        the
                        > > sample (hence the effect). Under isothermal conditions, the
                        entropy
                        > > of the sample DOES actually decrease, because of the heat
                        transfer
                        > > to the environment.
                        > >
                        > > Essentially what is going on is that the dynamics of the
                        molecular
                        > > structure of the mat'l change under the influence of a magnetic
                        > > field; this change is characterized by a reduction in the
                        molecular
                        > > degrees of freedom. Since the molecular degrees of freedom
                        reduce,
                        > > two things can happen: 1) the entropy also reduces
                        proportionately,
                        > > due to the presence of a heat sink and an open system, or 2) The
                        > > entropy remains unchanged due to adiabatic conditions and a
                        closed
                        > > system - the temperature rises to compensate for the change in
                        > > molecular degrees of freedom.
                        > >
                        > > You see, In order to conserve energy when the entropy of the
                        > > molecules tries to decrease, the 2nd law of thermodynamics
                        causes
                        > > the temperature of the sample to rise (under adiabatic
                        conditions
                        > > and a closed system, as previously stated). This effectively
                        cancels
                        > > the effort to destroy entropy in the closed system, thus
                        thwarting
                        > > the creation of energy.
                        > >
                        > > So there is no excess energy after all, and the laws of
                        > > thermodynamics are what actually cause the magnetocaloric effect
                        to
                        > > happen in the first place! Kind of dissapointing... All you have
                        is
                        > > another way to convert the energy of a magnetic field into heat.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                        wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into
                        > > incorrectly
                        > > > calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization.
                        Read
                        > > on
                        > > > to find out why.
                        > > >
                        > > > According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric
                        effect
                        > > is
                        > > > due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron molecules
                        in
                        > > the
                        > > > presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in
                        entropy
                        > > > (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the
                        field
                        > > is
                        > > > removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important to
                        > > > understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on in
                        the
                        > > > system from an energetic point of view.
                        > > >
                        > > > Now, look a little closer at the specific heat of the iron,
                        before
                        > > > and after magnetization. Excess energy can only be generated
                        if we
                        > > > assume the specific heat of the sample stays above a certain
                        > > > threshold. Does this happen in our case? I dont believe so!
                        The
                        > > > reason is that the specific heat is also DEPENDANT UPON THE
                        DEGREE
                        > > OF
                        > > > FREEDOM OF THE MOLECULES THAT MAKE UP THE SAMPLE! The less
                        degrees
                        > > of
                        > > > freedom, the less energy the molecule can absorb without
                        > > increasing
                        > > > its rate of vibration (and the resulting temperature of the
                        > > mat'l).
                        > > > This known, you can probably predict what I am going to say
                        next -
                        > >
                        > > > That the energy generated as heat only APPEARS to be greater
                        than
                        > > the
                        > > > energy of the magnetic field! My hypothesis is that it is
                        actually
                        > > > not, because the specific heat decreases proportionally to the
                        > > change
                        > > > in entropy.
                        > > >
                        > > > I believe this is the calculation that links molecular entropy
                        to
                        > > > specific heat: Cp = T(del_S/del_T). (S = entropy, T = absolute
                        > > temp)
                        > > >
                        > > > Anyone?
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                        wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little
                        further,
                        > > I
                        > > > > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric
                        effect
                        > > as a
                        > > > > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I calculated
                        the
                        > > > > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of
                        iron
                        > > > evenly
                        > > > > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that
                        with
                        > > the
                        > > > > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
                        > > > generated
                        > > > > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic field.
                        > > Seems
                        > > > > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate
                        the
                        > > 1st
                        > > > > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism
                        that
                        > > > > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I
                        did
                        > > not
                        > > > > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                        > > > > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > @All
                        > > > > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic cores
                        will
                        > > not
                        > > > > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores
                        will
                        > > not
                        > > > > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want
                        > > nanocrystalline
                        > > > > and
                        > > > > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki, albeit
                        it is
                        > > > > > presently a quick job -->
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and Metglas
                        > > > versions
                        > > > > use
                        > > > > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of
                        > > capturing
                        > > > MCE
                        > > > > > energy. This information is not based on unproven
                        theories.
                        > > > Rather,
                        > > > > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known
                        conventional
                        > > > > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go
                        through
                        > > > > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining
                        exactly
                        > > what
                        > > > is
                        > > > > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic scale.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
                        > > > exchanges.
                        > > > > For
                        > > > > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
                        > > > nanocrystalline
                        > > > > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one
                        fourth
                        > > MCE
                        > > > as
                        > > > > Gd
                        > > > > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good
                        nanocrystalline
                        > > > material
                        > > > > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field
                        to
                        > > > generate
                        > > > > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules
                        in one
                        > > > > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power
                        > > required
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within such
                        > > > material
                        > > > > is
                        > > > > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires but
                        a
                        > > > > fraction
                        > > > > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within
                        the
                        > > > > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > There are several problems here. The main problem being
                        that
                        > > > > magnetic
                        > > > > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy.
                        Another
                        > > issue
                        > > > is
                        > > > > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit megawatts
                        as
                        > > in
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in
                        typicall
                        > > iron
                        > > > > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of
                        that
                        > > MCE
                        > > > > energy
                        > > > > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material. Therefore
                        such
                        > > > > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical iron
                        is
                        > > > > extremely
                        > > > > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques
                        to
                        > > > overcome
                        > > > > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the
                        backyard
                        > > one
                        > > > > late
                        > > > > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE
                        theory. I
                        > > > stood
                        > > > > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the
                        MEG!!!"
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and
                        discovered
                        > > > > Naudin
                        > > > > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly
                        > > analyzing
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by
                        pixel I
                        > > > > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy." Then
                        I
                        > > went
                        > > > to
                        > > > > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free
                        > > energy."
                        > > > > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily conclude
                        that
                        > > > > either
                        > > > > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
                        > > > > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is
                        unfortunate
                        > > so
                        > > > > many
                        > > > > > other people at other sites have published false science
                        > > regarding
                        > > > > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in
                        > > private PM
                        > > > > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e., you
                        > > cannot
                        > > > > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
                        > > > > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In other
                        > > words,
                        > > > if
                        > > > > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400 MHz
                        > > signal
                        > > > on
                        > > > > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out
                        the
                        > > 400
                        > > > MHz
                        > > > > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the 400
                        MHz
                        > > > signal
                        > > > > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then
                        > > knowing my
                        > > > > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates outrageous
                        > > amounts
                        > > > of
                        > > > > > energy.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed
                        did not
                        > > > > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
                        > > > > published "smoking
                        > > > > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine will
                        be
                        > > > > released
                        > > > > > with extreme building instructions. See the overunity.com
                        > > links
                        > > > at
                        > > > > the
                        > > > > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the
                        release
                        > > > > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not be
                        more
                        > > > > pleased
                        > > > > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not
                        about
                        > > > > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will be
                        a
                        > > > great
                        > > > > day!
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Kind regards,
                        > > > > > Paul Lowrance
                        >
                      • richar18
                        Paul, take a look at this link: http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR00/MAR00/abs/S5910006.html It is the abstract of a meeting of scientists representing the Ames
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                          Paul, take a look at this link:

                          http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR00/MAR00/abs/S5910006.html

                          It is the abstract of a meeting of scientists representing the Ames
                          laboratory at the Iowa State Unv. I found these statements
                          particulary interesting:

                          "Precise heat capacity data collected as a function of temperature
                          in various magnetic fields is one of the most accurate indirect
                          techniques available for the characterization of magnetothermal
                          properties of magnetic materials"

                          and

                          "The use of heat capacity data to calculate the magnetocaloric
                          properties of magnetic solids along with a detailed analysis of
                          resulting errors and comparison with other indirect and direct
                          magnetocaloric measurements techniques will be given."

                          Looks like maybe I could be right about the relationship between the
                          MCE and specific heat?

                          Note one of the presenting scientists is Karl Gschneider, a pioneer
                          in the field of Magnetocaloric mat'ls.

                          I wish I could get some of the data presented, to see how the
                          specific heat actually varies for the mat'ls tested. It is a
                          scientific fact that Cp varies proportionally to the change in
                          entropy of the mat'l due to the applied field, but I dont know what
                          the scaling is. My basic physics background tells me the specific
                          heat varies in a way that gives further credence to the 1st law of
                          thermodynamics.

                          BTW, if the guy from NASA doesnt agree with the entropy/molecular
                          degree of freedom based description of the MCE, then he is
                          disagreeing with research findings by many scientists who have
                          studied the subject. This is the only scientific way I have seen the
                          effect described. Couple this with the fact that Cp is also linked
                          directly to the entropy/molecular D.O.F of the mat'l, and I think
                          you have a pretty logical framework for understanding the true
                          nature of the effect.

                          Regards,
                          -Brandon



                          --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sorry Paul, My name is Brandon. Didnt mean to ignore you,
                          anonymity
                          > has become a habit when posting on these groups.
                          >
                          > I need to keep this short I am at work.
                          >
                          > Your formula for magnetic field energy is not quite correct, you
                          > forgot to square "B". It is (B^2*V)/(2u0). I know the formula
                          well,
                          > I will have to double check my math for simple errors if the
                          answer
                          > is not right :).
                          >
                          > What I stated regarding the Magnetocaloric effect was not my idea,
                          > but is based on existing scientific research on the matter. I did
                          > not know about the effect before you posted about it. I am not
                          > spreading disinformation, just stating a null hypothesis. Please
                          > prove it wrong (with actual testing), as I would like this to be
                          > real as much as anyone.
                          >
                          > I know there is a real temp change, but did NOT know that the Cp
                          > only changed by 1/500th. IF this is true, then I will have a very
                          > hard time providing any theoretical evidence against the excess
                          > energy claim. How do you know this is the case?
                          >
                          > I just wanted someone with more knowledge on the subject than
                          myself
                          > to look into the relationship between specific heat and MCE temp
                          > change. Have you done any experimentation to show this excess
                          > energy? I know there is a device that measures the Cp of a mat'l
                          > undergoing the MCE. Wonder how easily it would be to get ahold of
                          > one of these? proving the specific heat stays relatively constant
                          > would be very good ammo for the proof of the excess energy.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Brandon
                          >
                          > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                          > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi richar18,
                          > >
                          > > You have math errors in one of your previous posts. First, the
                          > energy
                          > > in a magnetic field is B*V/(2*u0) B is in Tesla's, V=cubic
                          > meters, u0
                          > > is permeability of free space.
                          > >
                          > > If you would like to understand where the energy is coming from
                          > then
                          > > you need to ask a few questions.
                          > >
                          > > 1) Consider very cold magnetic material, say pure iron, at a few
                          0
                          > K.
                          > > The magnetic moments self align with no aid. How much energy
                          does
                          > it
                          > > require to break those alignments? Even NASA knows its ambient
                          > > temperature that breaks the magnetic alignment, which cools the
                          > > material. Has nothing to do with your idea.
                          > > 2) How much energy is given off when all the magnetic moments are
                          > > aligned? Even a disinformationist could not deny this energy.
                          Well,
                          > > maybe they could. :-)
                          > > 3) Ask yourself why it is common for MCE to suddenly produce very
                          > > little change in temperature when a certain temperature is
                          reached.
                          > > 4) Ask yourself why iron exhibits very little MCE even if you
                          were
                          > to
                          > > apply a 60 T field.
                          > > 5) Nearly all the magnetic moments in iron are saturated on the
                          > domain
                          > > level, but experiences hardly no MCE. Yet nanocrystalline is also
                          > > saturated on the domain level, but experiences large MCE. Were
                          you
                          > > aware that most of the Finemet atoms are already saturated on the
                          > > domain level, yet Finemet has 1/4 MCE as the best Gd alloys.
                          > > 6) MCE is real temperature change, not an illusion. It's used as
                          > deep
                          > > freezing. Apply 1 T field to Finemet core and you get 1 K change
                          in
                          > > temperature. Did you know the heat capacity changes roughly
                          1/500th
                          > > (0.2%)? Now you have material that's 1 K above room temperature.
                          > You
                          > > calculate how much energy it require to increase 1 cubic inch of
                          > that
                          > > material by 1 K. :-) How about 450 J/KgK * 1.0K * 0.13Kg = 59
                          > Joules.
                          > > I'll repeat, it requires ~59 J to heat that material by 1 K.
                          > Repeat,
                          > > the heat capacity of the magnetic only changes ~0.2%.
                          > > 7) How much are they paying you to spread disinformation, lol.
                          > Just
                          > > kidding ... I think. ;-)
                          > >
                          > > richar18, would you care to share your name or are you going to
                          > ignore
                          > > me for like the fourth time and converse with yourself? You
                          asked
                          > me a
                          > > lot of questions and then ignore me. :-)
                          > >
                          > > God bless you,
                          > > Paul Lowrance
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                          wrote:
                          > > > Sorry, I meant the entropy of the sample TRIES to DECREASE
                          when
                          > the
                          > > > field is applied. However if the conditions are adiabatic, the
                          > > > entropy does not change due to the increase in temperature of
                          > the
                          > > > sample (hence the effect). Under isothermal conditions, the
                          > entropy
                          > > > of the sample DOES actually decrease, because of the heat
                          > transfer
                          > > > to the environment.
                          > > >
                          > > > Essentially what is going on is that the dynamics of the
                          > molecular
                          > > > structure of the mat'l change under the influence of a
                          magnetic
                          > > > field; this change is characterized by a reduction in the
                          > molecular
                          > > > degrees of freedom. Since the molecular degrees of freedom
                          > reduce,
                          > > > two things can happen: 1) the entropy also reduces
                          > proportionately,
                          > > > due to the presence of a heat sink and an open system, or 2)
                          The
                          > > > entropy remains unchanged due to adiabatic conditions and a
                          > closed
                          > > > system - the temperature rises to compensate for the change in
                          > > > molecular degrees of freedom.
                          > > >
                          > > > You see, In order to conserve energy when the entropy of the
                          > > > molecules tries to decrease, the 2nd law of thermodynamics
                          > causes
                          > > > the temperature of the sample to rise (under adiabatic
                          > conditions
                          > > > and a closed system, as previously stated). This effectively
                          > cancels
                          > > > the effort to destroy entropy in the closed system, thus
                          > thwarting
                          > > > the creation of energy.
                          > > >
                          > > > So there is no excess energy after all, and the laws of
                          > > > thermodynamics are what actually cause the magnetocaloric
                          effect
                          > to
                          > > > happen in the first place! Kind of dissapointing... All you
                          have
                          > is
                          > > > another way to convert the energy of a magnetic field into
                          heat.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into
                          > > > incorrectly
                          > > > > calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization.
                          > Read
                          > > > on
                          > > > > to find out why.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric
                          > effect
                          > > > is
                          > > > > due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron
                          molecules
                          > in
                          > > > the
                          > > > > presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in
                          > entropy
                          > > > > (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the
                          > field
                          > > > is
                          > > > > removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important
                          to
                          > > > > understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on
                          in
                          > the
                          > > > > system from an energetic point of view.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Now, look a little closer at the specific heat of the iron,
                          > before
                          > > > > and after magnetization. Excess energy can only be generated
                          > if we
                          > > > > assume the specific heat of the sample stays above a certain
                          > > > > threshold. Does this happen in our case? I dont believe so!
                          > The
                          > > > > reason is that the specific heat is also DEPENDANT UPON THE
                          > DEGREE
                          > > > OF
                          > > > > FREEDOM OF THE MOLECULES THAT MAKE UP THE SAMPLE! The less
                          > degrees
                          > > > of
                          > > > > freedom, the less energy the molecule can absorb without
                          > > > increasing
                          > > > > its rate of vibration (and the resulting temperature of the
                          > > > mat'l).
                          > > > > This known, you can probably predict what I am going to say
                          > next -
                          > > >
                          > > > > That the energy generated as heat only APPEARS to be greater
                          > than
                          > > > the
                          > > > > energy of the magnetic field! My hypothesis is that it is
                          > actually
                          > > > > not, because the specific heat decreases proportionally to
                          the
                          > > > change
                          > > > > in entropy.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I believe this is the calculation that links molecular
                          entropy
                          > to
                          > > > > specific heat: Cp = T(del_S/del_T). (S = entropy, T =
                          absolute
                          > > > temp)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Anyone?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                          > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little
                          > further,
                          > > > I
                          > > > > > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric
                          > effect
                          > > > as a
                          > > > > > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I
                          calculated
                          > the
                          > > > > > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of
                          > iron
                          > > > > evenly
                          > > > > > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that
                          > with
                          > > > the
                          > > > > > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
                          > > > > generated
                          > > > > > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic
                          field.
                          > > > Seems
                          > > > > > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate
                          > the
                          > > > 1st
                          > > > > > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism
                          > that
                          > > > > > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I
                          > did
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                          > > > > > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > @All
                          > > > > > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic
                          cores
                          > will
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores
                          > will
                          > > > not
                          > > > > > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want
                          > > > nanocrystalline
                          > > > > > and
                          > > > > > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki,
                          albeit
                          > it is
                          > > > > > > presently a quick job -->
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and
                          Metglas
                          > > > > versions
                          > > > > > use
                          > > > > > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of
                          > > > capturing
                          > > > > MCE
                          > > > > > > energy. This information is not based on unproven
                          > theories.
                          > > > > Rather,
                          > > > > > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known
                          > conventional
                          > > > > > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go
                          > through
                          > > > > > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining
                          > exactly
                          > > > what
                          > > > > is
                          > > > > > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic
                          scale.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
                          > > > > exchanges.
                          > > > > > For
                          > > > > > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
                          > > > > nanocrystalline
                          > > > > > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one
                          > fourth
                          > > > MCE
                          > > > > as
                          > > > > > Gd
                          > > > > > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good
                          > nanocrystalline
                          > > > > material
                          > > > > > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field
                          > to
                          > > > > generate
                          > > > > > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules
                          > in one
                          > > > > > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power
                          > > > required
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within
                          such
                          > > > > material
                          > > > > > is
                          > > > > > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires
                          but
                          > a
                          > > > > > fraction
                          > > > > > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within
                          > the
                          > > > > > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > There are several problems here. The main problem being
                          > that
                          > > > > > magnetic
                          > > > > > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy.
                          > Another
                          > > > issue
                          > > > > is
                          > > > > > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit
                          megawatts
                          > as
                          > > > in
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in
                          > typicall
                          > > > iron
                          > > > > > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of
                          > that
                          > > > MCE
                          > > > > > energy
                          > > > > > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material.
                          Therefore
                          > such
                          > > > > > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical
                          iron
                          > is
                          > > > > > extremely
                          > > > > > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques
                          > to
                          > > > > overcome
                          > > > > > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the
                          > backyard
                          > > > one
                          > > > > > late
                          > > > > > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE
                          > theory. I
                          > > > > stood
                          > > > > > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the
                          > MEG!!!"
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and
                          > discovered
                          > > > > > Naudin
                          > > > > > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly
                          > > > analyzing
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by
                          > pixel I
                          > > > > > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy."
                          Then
                          > I
                          > > > went
                          > > > > to
                          > > > > > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free
                          > > > energy."
                          > > > > > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily
                          conclude
                          > that
                          > > > > > either
                          > > > > > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
                          > > > > > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is
                          > unfortunate
                          > > > so
                          > > > > > many
                          > > > > > > other people at other sites have published false science
                          > > > regarding
                          > > > > > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in
                          > > > private PM
                          > > > > > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e.,
                          you
                          > > > cannot
                          > > > > > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
                          > > > > > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In
                          other
                          > > > words,
                          > > > > if
                          > > > > > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400
                          MHz
                          > > > signal
                          > > > > on
                          > > > > > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out
                          > the
                          > > > 400
                          > > > > MHz
                          > > > > > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the
                          400
                          > MHz
                          > > > > signal
                          > > > > > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then
                          > > > knowing my
                          > > > > > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates
                          outrageous
                          > > > amounts
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > > > energy.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed
                          > did not
                          > > > > > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
                          > > > > > published "smoking
                          > > > > > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine
                          will
                          > be
                          > > > > > released
                          > > > > > > with extreme building instructions. See the
                          overunity.com
                          > > > links
                          > > > > at
                          > > > > > the
                          > > > > > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the
                          > release
                          > > > > > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not
                          be
                          > more
                          > > > > > pleased
                          > > > > > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not
                          > about
                          > > > > > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will
                          be
                          > a
                          > > > > great
                          > > > > > day!
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Kind regards,
                          > > > > > > Paul Lowrance
                          > >
                          >
                        • richar18
                          I found further evidence to help my argument regarding the reduction in specific heat cancelling any possible excess energy gains due to MCE. Read the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                            I found further evidence to help my argument regarding the reduction
                            in specific heat cancelling any possible excess energy gains due to
                            MCE. Read the following paper:

                            http://www.ntnu.edu.tw/acad/result/respro/90/ord903-3.pdf

                            Note that with the application of a 200 Oe magnetization field at
                            ~25C, the specific heat (of the fluid) decreases about 40%! I feel
                            that this alone is almost enough info to disprove the 1/500th
                            decrease you quoted earlier. Granted this is a magnetic fluid and
                            not a solid, but the mechanism is the same.

                            Also note that the conclusion states almost verbatim what I am using
                            as the basis for my argument.

                            Regards,
                            -Brandon
                            P.S. - its obviously my lunch time!

                            --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Sorry Paul, My name is Brandon. Didnt mean to ignore you,
                            anonymity
                            > has become a habit when posting on these groups.
                            >
                            > I need to keep this short I am at work.
                            >
                            > Your formula for magnetic field energy is not quite correct, you
                            > forgot to square "B". It is (B^2*V)/(2u0). I know the formula
                            well,
                            > I will have to double check my math for simple errors if the
                            answer
                            > is not right :).
                            >
                            > What I stated regarding the Magnetocaloric effect was not my idea,
                            > but is based on existing scientific research on the matter. I did
                            > not know about the effect before you posted about it. I am not
                            > spreading disinformation, just stating a null hypothesis. Please
                            > prove it wrong (with actual testing), as I would like this to be
                            > real as much as anyone.
                            >
                            > I know there is a real temp change, but did NOT know that the Cp
                            > only changed by 1/500th. IF this is true, then I will have a very
                            > hard time providing any theoretical evidence against the excess
                            > energy claim. How do you know this is the case?
                            >
                            > I just wanted someone with more knowledge on the subject than
                            myself
                            > to look into the relationship between specific heat and MCE temp
                            > change. Have you done any experimentation to show this excess
                            > energy? I know there is a device that measures the Cp of a mat'l
                            > undergoing the MCE. Wonder how easily it would be to get ahold of
                            > one of these? proving the specific heat stays relatively constant
                            > would be very good ammo for the proof of the excess energy.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Brandon
                            >
                            > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                            > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi richar18,
                            > >
                            > > You have math errors in one of your previous posts. First, the
                            > energy
                            > > in a magnetic field is B*V/(2*u0) B is in Tesla's, V=cubic
                            > meters, u0
                            > > is permeability of free space.
                            > >
                            > > If you would like to understand where the energy is coming from
                            > then
                            > > you need to ask a few questions.
                            > >
                            > > 1) Consider very cold magnetic material, say pure iron, at a few
                            0
                            > K.
                            > > The magnetic moments self align with no aid. How much energy
                            does
                            > it
                            > > require to break those alignments? Even NASA knows its ambient
                            > > temperature that breaks the magnetic alignment, which cools the
                            > > material. Has nothing to do with your idea.
                            > > 2) How much energy is given off when all the magnetic moments are
                            > > aligned? Even a disinformationist could not deny this energy.
                            Well,
                            > > maybe they could. :-)
                            > > 3) Ask yourself why it is common for MCE to suddenly produce very
                            > > little change in temperature when a certain temperature is
                            reached.
                            > > 4) Ask yourself why iron exhibits very little MCE even if you
                            were
                            > to
                            > > apply a 60 T field.
                            > > 5) Nearly all the magnetic moments in iron are saturated on the
                            > domain
                            > > level, but experiences hardly no MCE. Yet nanocrystalline is also
                            > > saturated on the domain level, but experiences large MCE. Were
                            you
                            > > aware that most of the Finemet atoms are already saturated on the
                            > > domain level, yet Finemet has 1/4 MCE as the best Gd alloys.
                            > > 6) MCE is real temperature change, not an illusion. It's used as
                            > deep
                            > > freezing. Apply 1 T field to Finemet core and you get 1 K change
                            in
                            > > temperature. Did you know the heat capacity changes roughly
                            1/500th
                            > > (0.2%)? Now you have material that's 1 K above room temperature.
                            > You
                            > > calculate how much energy it require to increase 1 cubic inch of
                            > that
                            > > material by 1 K. :-) How about 450 J/KgK * 1.0K * 0.13Kg = 59
                            > Joules.
                            > > I'll repeat, it requires ~59 J to heat that material by 1 K.
                            > Repeat,
                            > > the heat capacity of the magnetic only changes ~0.2%.
                            > > 7) How much are they paying you to spread disinformation, lol.
                            > Just
                            > > kidding ... I think. ;-)
                            > >
                            > > richar18, would you care to share your name or are you going to
                            > ignore
                            > > me for like the fourth time and converse with yourself? You
                            asked
                            > me a
                            > > lot of questions and then ignore me. :-)
                            > >
                            > > God bless you,
                            > > Paul Lowrance
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                            wrote:
                            > > > Sorry, I meant the entropy of the sample TRIES to DECREASE
                            when
                            > the
                            > > > field is applied. However if the conditions are adiabatic, the
                            > > > entropy does not change due to the increase in temperature of
                            > the
                            > > > sample (hence the effect). Under isothermal conditions, the
                            > entropy
                            > > > of the sample DOES actually decrease, because of the heat
                            > transfer
                            > > > to the environment.
                            > > >
                            > > > Essentially what is going on is that the dynamics of the
                            > molecular
                            > > > structure of the mat'l change under the influence of a
                            magnetic
                            > > > field; this change is characterized by a reduction in the
                            > molecular
                            > > > degrees of freedom. Since the molecular degrees of freedom
                            > reduce,
                            > > > two things can happen: 1) the entropy also reduces
                            > proportionately,
                            > > > due to the presence of a heat sink and an open system, or 2)
                            The
                            > > > entropy remains unchanged due to adiabatic conditions and a
                            > closed
                            > > > system - the temperature rises to compensate for the change in
                            > > > molecular degrees of freedom.
                            > > >
                            > > > You see, In order to conserve energy when the entropy of the
                            > > > molecules tries to decrease, the 2nd law of thermodynamics
                            > causes
                            > > > the temperature of the sample to rise (under adiabatic
                            > conditions
                            > > > and a closed system, as previously stated). This effectively
                            > cancels
                            > > > the effort to destroy entropy in the closed system, thus
                            > thwarting
                            > > > the creation of energy.
                            > > >
                            > > > So there is no excess energy after all, and the laws of
                            > > > thermodynamics are what actually cause the magnetocaloric
                            effect
                            > to
                            > > > happen in the first place! Kind of dissapointing... All you
                            have
                            > is
                            > > > another way to convert the energy of a magnetic field into
                            heat.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > You know, it appears as if nature may have fooled us into
                            > > > incorrectly
                            > > > > calculating the heat energy of the iron after magnetization.
                            > Read
                            > > > on
                            > > > > to find out why.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > According to my sources on the subject, the magnetocaloric
                            > effect
                            > > > is
                            > > > > due to a reduction in degrees of freedom of the iron
                            molecules
                            > in
                            > > > the
                            > > > > presence of a magnetic field, which causes an increase in
                            > entropy
                            > > > > (and therefore temperature). The decrease in temp when the
                            > field
                            > > > is
                            > > > > removed is due to the opposite. This mechanism is important
                            to
                            > > > > understand, because it gives a hint as to what is going on
                            in
                            > the
                            > > > > system from an energetic point of view.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Now, look a little closer at the specific heat of the iron,
                            > before
                            > > > > and after magnetization. Excess energy can only be generated
                            > if we
                            > > > > assume the specific heat of the sample stays above a certain
                            > > > > threshold. Does this happen in our case? I dont believe so!
                            > The
                            > > > > reason is that the specific heat is also DEPENDANT UPON THE
                            > DEGREE
                            > > > OF
                            > > > > FREEDOM OF THE MOLECULES THAT MAKE UP THE SAMPLE! The less
                            > degrees
                            > > > of
                            > > > > freedom, the less energy the molecule can absorb without
                            > > > increasing
                            > > > > its rate of vibration (and the resulting temperature of the
                            > > > mat'l).
                            > > > > This known, you can probably predict what I am going to say
                            > next -
                            > > >
                            > > > > That the energy generated as heat only APPEARS to be greater
                            > than
                            > > > the
                            > > > > energy of the magnetic field! My hypothesis is that it is
                            > actually
                            > > > > not, because the specific heat decreases proportionally to
                            the
                            > > > change
                            > > > > in entropy.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I believe this is the calculation that links molecular
                            entropy
                            > to
                            > > > > specific heat: Cp = T(del_S/del_T). (S = entropy, T =
                            absolute
                            > > > temp)
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Anyone?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@>
                            > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hi Paul, interesting stuff. In looking into it a little
                            > further,
                            > > > I
                            > > > > > also see that Harold Aspden mentions the magnetocaloric
                            > effect
                            > > > as a
                            > > > > > part of his work. It seems to have some merit; I
                            calculated
                            > the
                            > > > > > energy stored in a hypothetical 1 cubic meter specimen of
                            > iron
                            > > > > evenly
                            > > > > > permeated with a 1 tesla magnetic flux, and compared that
                            > with
                            > > > the
                            > > > > > energy generated as heat during a 1k temp rise. The energy
                            > > > > generated
                            > > > > > as heat is almost 9 times that stored in the magnetic
                            field.
                            > > > Seems
                            > > > > > like a sort of heat engine, where cop > 1 does not violate
                            > the
                            > > > 1st
                            > > > > > law of Thermodynamics. Can you explain again the mechanism
                            > that
                            > > > > > allows you to tap this excess heat as electrical energy? I
                            > did
                            > > > not
                            > > > > > quite undersatnd the Wiki article in this respect.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                            > > > > > <softwarelabus@> wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > @All
                            > > > > > > I have strong evidence that non-electrical magnetic
                            cores
                            > will
                            > > > not
                            > > > > > > exhibit the "free energy." Therefore most ferrite cores
                            > will
                            > > > not
                            > > > > > > work. Iron powder core is another story. You want
                            > > > nanocrystalline
                            > > > > > and
                            > > > > > > amorphous magnetic material. Please study my wiki,
                            albeit
                            > it is
                            > > > > > > presently a quick job -->
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Site:MEMM
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > You will note that both Naudin's silicon iron and
                            Metglas
                            > > > > versions
                            > > > > > use
                            > > > > > > Method #1, which relies on Eddy currents as a tool of
                            > > > capturing
                            > > > > MCE
                            > > > > > > energy. This information is not based on unproven
                            > theories.
                            > > > > Rather,
                            > > > > > > it is a recent discovery based on very well known
                            > conventional
                            > > > > > > physics. In the above wiki there two examples which go
                            > through
                            > > > > > > extreme details in a step-by-step process explaining
                            > exactly
                            > > > what
                            > > > > is
                            > > > > > > happening within the magnetic material on an atomic
                            scale.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Nanocrystalline material possesses huge internal energy
                            > > > > exchanges.
                            > > > > > For
                            > > > > > > example, a study by Skorvánek and Kovác shows that
                            > > > > nanocrystalline
                            > > > > > > material well below Curie temperature has roughly one
                            > fourth
                            > > > MCE
                            > > > > as
                            > > > > > Gd
                            > > > > > > alloys. For example, one cubic inch of good
                            > nanocrystalline
                            > > > > material
                            > > > > > > toroid core oscillating at 100 KHz with an applied field
                            > to
                            > > > > generate
                            > > > > > > internal 1 T-peak fields produces over 15 million joules
                            > in one
                            > > > > > > second, which is over 15 megawatts! The amount of power
                            > > > required
                            > > > > to
                            > > > > > > generate an oscillating 1 T-peak 100 KHz field within
                            such
                            > > > > material
                            > > > > > is
                            > > > > > > but a fraction of a watt. In other words, it requires
                            but
                            > a
                            > > > > > fraction
                            > > > > > > of a watt to produce megawatts of power exchanged within
                            > the
                            > > > > > > nanocrystalline magnetic core material.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > There are several problems here. The main problem being
                            > that
                            > > > > > magnetic
                            > > > > > > material is very effective in absorbing MCE energy.
                            > Another
                            > > > issue
                            > > > > is
                            > > > > > > in choosing material. Nanocrystalline may exibit
                            megawatts
                            > as
                            > > > in
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > above example as compared to a few hundred watts in
                            > typicall
                            > > > iron
                            > > > > > > cores. Trying to capture but an infintesimal amount of
                            > that
                            > > > MCE
                            > > > > > energy
                            > > > > > > is difficult enough in nanocrystalline material.
                            Therefore
                            > such
                            > > > > > > attempts with large domain materials such as typical
                            iron
                            > is
                            > > > > > extremely
                            > > > > > > difficult. The good news is there are various techniques
                            > to
                            > > > > overcome
                            > > > > > > this, as detailed in my wiki.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > What is very interesting is that while pacing in the
                            > backyard
                            > > > one
                            > > > > > late
                            > > > > > > night I designed a machine entirely based on my MCE
                            > theory. I
                            > > > > stood
                            > > > > > > back looking at the design and said, "Hey, that's the
                            > MEG!!!"
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > I studied one of Naudin's silicon iron versions and
                            > discovered
                            > > > > > Naudin
                            > > > > > > incorrectly interpreted his scope. After painstakingly
                            > > > analyzing
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > scope pictures, counting the power over time pixel by
                            > pixel I
                            > > > > > > concluded that it was not generating "free energy."
                            Then
                            > I
                            > > > went
                            > > > > to
                            > > > > > > his Metglas version and without doubt it generates "free
                            > > > energy."
                            > > > > > > Naudin supplies sufficient information to easily
                            conclude
                            > that
                            > > > > > either
                            > > > > > > he falsified the scope pictures or his scope is terribly
                            > > > > > > malfunctioning or it generates free energy. It is
                            > unfortunate
                            > > > so
                            > > > > > many
                            > > > > > > other people at other sites have published false science
                            > > > regarding
                            > > > > > > Naudin's results. I debated with one such key person in
                            > > > private PM
                            > > > > > > about this and he concluded that I was correct; i.e.,
                            you
                            > > > cannot
                            > > > > > > dispute the scope pictures. The odds of Naudin's scope to
                            > > > > > > malfunctioning in such a manner is slim and none. In
                            other
                            > > > words,
                            > > > > if
                            > > > > > > we apply 50 KHz sine wave signal in addition to a 400
                            MHz
                            > > > signal
                            > > > > on
                            > > > > > > say a 20 MHz scope then the scope will simply dampen out
                            > the
                            > > > 400
                            > > > > MHz
                            > > > > > > signal without affecting the 50 KHz signal unless the
                            400
                            > MHz
                            > > > > signal
                            > > > > > > was intense enough to saturate. If that's the case then
                            > > > knowing my
                            > > > > > > physics we have a 400 MHz signal that radiates
                            outrageous
                            > > > amounts
                            > > > > of
                            > > > > > > energy.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > In a nutshell, Naudin's silicon iron version I analyzed
                            > did not
                            > > > > > > exhibit "free energy," but the Metglas version did.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Hopefully sometime soon the first fully and freely
                            > > > > > published "smoking
                            > > > > > > gun", self-running, closed loop "free energy" machine
                            will
                            > be
                            > > > > > released
                            > > > > > > with extreme building instructions. See the
                            overunity.com
                            > > > links
                            > > > > at
                            > > > > > the
                            > > > > > > bottom of my peswiki page for further details about the
                            > release
                            > > > > > > process. The goal has been early 2007, but I could not
                            be
                            > more
                            > > > > > pleased
                            > > > > > > if someone completed this before 2007. The goal is not
                            > about
                            > > > > > > self-profiting, but about helping this world. What will
                            be
                            > a
                            > > > > great
                            > > > > > day!
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Kind regards,
                            > > > > > > Paul Lowrance
                            > >
                            >
                          • softwarelabus
                            richar18, You made another math error. I meticulously proved this last year. Any circuit simulation program will show you. If you double the permeability of
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                              richar18,

                              You made another math error. I meticulously proved this last year. Any
                              circuit simulation program will show you. If you double the
                              permeability of material then it requires half the applied field to
                              equal the same net field. The di/dt increases at half the rate, but
                              takes the same time to reach half the current. Again, note that half
                              the current results in the same net field in double permeability. Same
                              voltage, half current = half power. Check it out yourself ->

                              http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:PaulL:Energize

                              Regards,
                              Paul Lowrance


                              --- richar18 <richar18@...> wrote:
                              > This reply is only geared towards the comment
                              > regarding the energy it
                              > takes to magnetize with respect to permeability. I
                              > will respond to
                              > the excess MCE energy later:
                              >
                              > It is a misnomer that it takes half the energy to
                              > generate the same
                              > magnetic field within a mat'l of twice the
                              > permeability. Lets first
                              > use a coil/core as an example. The greater the
                              > permeability of the
                              > core, the higher the inductance of the system. The
                              > higher the
                              > inductance, the more voltage is required to generate
                              > the same
                              > magnetic field, albeit with proportionally less
                              > current. The energy
                              > consumed by the coil is the same regardless of the
                              > core permeability.
                              >
                              > Another way to look at it is to identify the force
                              > it takes to detach
                              > a magnet from a piece of magnetic mat'l. The energy
                              > inside the
                              > magnetic mat'l due to the magnetizing field is equal
                              > to the energy it
                              > will take to seperate the magnet from the mat'l over
                              > a distance until
                              > the force of attraction equals zero. This energy
                              > rises with
                              > permeability, because the force vs distance
                              > increases in proportion
                              > to the permeability.
                              >
                              > I would like to stress that if permeability
                              > increases, it takes the
                              > SAME amount of energy to generate the same field
                              > within a mat'l of
                              > the same dimensions.
                              >
                              > Now regarding specific heat, what mat'ls show a rise
                              > in Cp under
                              > influence of a magnetic field? Because I would be
                              > inclined to think
                              > that they cool, instead of heat.

                              [snip]
                            • softwarelabus
                              Hi Brandon, ... Thanks! It took, what 4 replies to get your attention, lol. No problem! [snip] ... Understood. I think you ll find that you forgot the 1/2
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                                Hi Brandon,


                                --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                                > Sorry Paul, My name is Brandon. Didnt mean to ignore you, anonymity
                                > has become a habit when posting on these groups.

                                Thanks! It took, what 4 replies to get your attention, lol. No problem!



                                [snip]
                                > Your formula for magnetic field energy is not quite correct, you
                                > forgot to square "B". It is (B^2*V)/(2u0). I know the formula well,
                                > I will have to double check my math for simple errors if the answer
                                > is not right :).

                                Understood. I think you'll find that you forgot the 1/2 factor in your
                                math. I got ~1/18, not 1/9th, but we both know that's an inaccurate
                                method (possibly highly inaccurate) due to complex internal fields.
                                It's kind humorous, take my missing ^2 and add it in your missing 1/2
                                and we have a fully non-mistyped equation, lol.


                                > What I stated regarding the Magnetocaloric effect was not my idea,
                                > but is based on existing scientific research on the matter. I did
                                > not know about the effect before you posted about it. I am not
                                > spreading disinformation, just stating a null hypothesis. Please
                                > prove it wrong (with actual testing), as I would like this to be
                                > real as much as anyone.

                                I'm not certain of that. Here what a NASA employee who worked on MCE
                                recently emailed me :

                                "Then we remove the magnetic field when the materials temperature is
                                still above Tc. Now as the spins relax back to a random state it take
                                the energy to rotate from the lattice and cools the crystal."

                                We know that it requires real energy to break (flip) the alignment of
                                many aligned magnetic moments. You acknowledge that, correct?


                                > I know there is a real temp change, but did NOT know that the Cp
                                > only changed by 1/500th. IF this is true, then I will have a very
                                > hard time providing any theoretical evidence against the excess
                                > energy claim. How do you know this is the case?

                                That was for a nanocrystalline material, Finemet, since that's the
                                wonder material of interest. :-) -->
                                http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/cjop/2004/00000054/A00100s4/00000061;jsessionid=21mb18ken30yi.alice

                                An entropy change for the Finemet is 0.72 J/KgK. Using a specific heat
                                of iron ~ 460 J/KgK, that's a mere 1/639th change in entropy. We both
                                know that the heat is real; i.e., it actually heats up things, lol. So
                                how much energy would it require to heat up such material even if the
                                heat capacity was (460 - 0.72)? BTW, are you sure the heat capacity
                                increases for most materials? It seems the NASA guy wrote that in his
                                case it actually increased, meaning that it requires more energy to
                                heat it up. Note that Finemet (Fe80.5Nb7B12.5) in the abstract is
                                1/4th MCE as Gd alloys, which is significant, roughly 1 K change in
                                temperature per Tesla. That's a lot of energy for just one energy
                                exchange.




                                > Paul, take a look at this link:
                                >
                                > http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR00/MAR00/abs/S5910006.html
                                >
                                > It is the abstract of a meeting of scientists representing the Ames
                                > laboratory at the Iowa State Unv. I found these statements
                                > particulary interesting:
                                >
                                > "Precise heat capacity data collected as a function of temperature
                                > in various magnetic fields is one of the most accurate indirect
                                > techniques available for the characterization of magnetothermal
                                > properties of magnetic materials"
                                >
                                > and
                                >
                                > "The use of heat capacity data to calculate the magnetocaloric
                                > properties of magnetic solids along with a detailed analysis of
                                > resulting errors and comparison with other indirect and direct
                                > magnetocaloric measurements techniques will be given."
                                >
                                > Looks like maybe I could be right about the relationship between the
                                > MCE and specific heat?
                                >
                                > Note one of the presenting scientists is Karl Gschneider, a pioneer
                                > in the field of Magnetocaloric mat'ls.

                                But I never stated the energy came from nothing. :-) Although the
                                above quotes don't claim as to _how_ the material heats up. It just
                                states that entropy and temperature go hand in hand, but even that I
                                question. For example I seriously doubt they studied nanocrystalline
                                materials, the wonder material. I believe your description describes
                                Magnetostriction where magnetic field strain causes change in size,
                                which in itself would cause temperature changes. We know from pure
                                physics that by moving aligned magnetic moments closer to each other
                                requires energy and viscera. Although note the Magnetostriction in
                                nanocrystalline materials is nearly zero. Magnetostriction for Metglas
                                2714AF is <<1 ppm! That in itself could indicate the large MCE in such
                                materials is not caused by magnetic strains, at least for
                                nanocrystalline materials.

                                I don't think the above quotes describe how MCE takes place. Lets try
                                to analyze in further detail what's happening. We know for fact that a
                                magnetic moment that is allowed to align will rotate, thereby adding
                                radiation energy. That being the case my MCE theory is true. You might
                                suggest that it does not generate as much energy as I thought. If it
                                does or does not remains to be seen. According to your math such
                                alignment would add 1/9th the reported MCE energy. I calculated
                                1/18th. Regardless, even 1/18th of 15 megawatts is not so shabby for
                                one cubic inch of nanocrystalline material. :-) Anyhow, the aligning
                                moments adds energy, but lets not confuse that effect with magnetic
                                strain. We need to view the atoms as not aligned, and then instantly
                                aligned to not focus on the radiated energy associated with flip. We
                                then see magnet strain on the material. So the iron atoms move at the
                                same velocity, but the vibration rate is faster. The air atoms will
                                strike the iron atoms at the same rate. So in order to add more energy
                                to the air atoms the iron atoms need to increase in velocity, not
                                vibration rate. Remember, the air atoms will still strike the iron
                                atom the same amount of collisions per second.



                                >
                                > I wish I could get some of the data presented, to see how the
                                > specific heat actually varies for the mat'ls tested. It is a
                                > scientific fact that Cp varies proportionally to the change in
                                > entropy of the mat'l due to the applied field, but I dont know what
                                > the scaling is. My basic physics background tells me the specific
                                > heat varies in a way that gives further credence to the 1st law of
                                > thermodynamics.

                                Relatively speaking there's not an enormous amount of data regarding
                                MCE, and all that data as far as I can find (with exception of the
                                NASA guy) does not form any specific details on the atomic scale
                                what's happening. Only that there's a change in entropy, which is fine
                                with me. :-) Understandably the energy is coming from some place, and
                                the result is a change in entropy. I'm happy with that.


                                Regards,
                                Paul Lowrance
                              • richar18
                                Yes, you are correct with respect to an internal field. However, I was under the impression that it is not the internal field that the MCE is reliant upo, but
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                                  Yes, you are correct with respect to an internal field. However, I
                                  was under the impression that it is not the internal field that the
                                  MCE is reliant upo, but the magnetizing field, "H". My energy
                                  calculations dont work when you consider the internal field, you are
                                  correct. But THERE IS NO ENERGY STORED IN THE INTERNAL FIELD OF AN
                                  INDUCTOR. The energy is stored in the "H" field. I can prove this if
                                  you like.


                                  --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                                  <softwarelabus@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > richar18,
                                  >
                                  > You made another math error. I meticulously proved this last year.
                                  Any
                                  > circuit simulation program will show you. If you double the
                                  > permeability of material then it requires half the applied field to
                                  > equal the same net field. The di/dt increases at half the rate, but
                                  > takes the same time to reach half the current. Again, note that
                                  half
                                  > the current results in the same net field in double permeability.
                                  Same
                                  > voltage, half current = half power. Check it out yourself ->
                                  >
                                  > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:PaulL:Energize
                                  >
                                  > Regards,
                                  > Paul Lowrance
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- richar18 <richar18@...> wrote:
                                  > > This reply is only geared towards the comment
                                  > > regarding the energy it
                                  > > takes to magnetize with respect to permeability. I
                                  > > will respond to
                                  > > the excess MCE energy later:
                                  > >
                                  > > It is a misnomer that it takes half the energy to
                                  > > generate the same
                                  > > magnetic field within a mat'l of twice the
                                  > > permeability. Lets first
                                  > > use a coil/core as an example. The greater the
                                  > > permeability of the
                                  > > core, the higher the inductance of the system. The
                                  > > higher the
                                  > > inductance, the more voltage is required to generate
                                  > > the same
                                  > > magnetic field, albeit with proportionally less
                                  > > current. The energy
                                  > > consumed by the coil is the same regardless of the
                                  > > core permeability.
                                  > >
                                  > > Another way to look at it is to identify the force
                                  > > it takes to detach
                                  > > a magnet from a piece of magnetic mat'l. The energy
                                  > > inside the
                                  > > magnetic mat'l due to the magnetizing field is equal
                                  > > to the energy it
                                  > > will take to seperate the magnet from the mat'l over
                                  > > a distance until
                                  > > the force of attraction equals zero. This energy
                                  > > rises with
                                  > > permeability, because the force vs distance
                                  > > increases in proportion
                                  > > to the permeability.
                                  > >
                                  > > I would like to stress that if permeability
                                  > > increases, it takes the
                                  > > SAME amount of energy to generate the same field
                                  > > within a mat'l of
                                  > > the same dimensions.
                                  > >
                                  > > Now regarding specific heat, what mat'ls show a rise
                                  > > in Cp under
                                  > > influence of a magnetic field? Because I would be
                                  > > inclined to think
                                  > > that they cool, instead of heat.
                                  >
                                  > [snip]
                                  >
                                • richar18
                                  An applied magnetic field forces the atoms into alignment, reducing the system s heat capacity and causing it to expel energy More proof that the decrease in
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 19, 2006
                                    "An applied magnetic field forces the atoms into alignment, reducing
                                    the system's heat capacity and causing it to expel energy"

                                    More proof that the decrease in entropy and DOF is the CAUSE of the
                                    effect.

                                    http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc98/3_28_98/fob3.htm

                                    -Brandon

                                    --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                                    <softwarelabus@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > richar18,
                                    >
                                    > You made another math error. I meticulously proved this last year.
                                    Any
                                    > circuit simulation program will show you. If you double the
                                    > permeability of material then it requires half the applied field to
                                    > equal the same net field. The di/dt increases at half the rate, but
                                    > takes the same time to reach half the current. Again, note that half
                                    > the current results in the same net field in double permeability.
                                    Same
                                    > voltage, half current = half power. Check it out yourself ->
                                    >
                                    > http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:PaulL:Energize
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Paul Lowrance
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- richar18 <richar18@...> wrote:
                                    > > This reply is only geared towards the comment
                                    > > regarding the energy it
                                    > > takes to magnetize with respect to permeability. I
                                    > > will respond to
                                    > > the excess MCE energy later:
                                    > >
                                    > > It is a misnomer that it takes half the energy to
                                    > > generate the same
                                    > > magnetic field within a mat'l of twice the
                                    > > permeability. Lets first
                                    > > use a coil/core as an example. The greater the
                                    > > permeability of the
                                    > > core, the higher the inductance of the system. The
                                    > > higher the
                                    > > inductance, the more voltage is required to generate
                                    > > the same
                                    > > magnetic field, albeit with proportionally less
                                    > > current. The energy
                                    > > consumed by the coil is the same regardless of the
                                    > > core permeability.
                                    > >
                                    > > Another way to look at it is to identify the force
                                    > > it takes to detach
                                    > > a magnet from a piece of magnetic mat'l. The energy
                                    > > inside the
                                    > > magnetic mat'l due to the magnetizing field is equal
                                    > > to the energy it
                                    > > will take to seperate the magnet from the mat'l over
                                    > > a distance until
                                    > > the force of attraction equals zero. This energy
                                    > > rises with
                                    > > permeability, because the force vs distance
                                    > > increases in proportion
                                    > > to the permeability.
                                    > >
                                    > > I would like to stress that if permeability
                                    > > increases, it takes the
                                    > > SAME amount of energy to generate the same field
                                    > > within a mat'l of
                                    > > the same dimensions.
                                    > >
                                    > > Now regarding specific heat, what mat'ls show a rise
                                    > > in Cp under
                                    > > influence of a magnetic field? Because I would be
                                    > > inclined to think
                                    > > that they cool, instead of heat.
                                    >
                                    > [snip]
                                    >
                                  • softwarelabus
                                    (Note: Apologies for this message being delayed - The moderators took the weekend off) Hi Brandon, I would appreciate it if you could please just acknowledge
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 20, 2006
                                      (Note: Apologies for this message being delayed - The moderators took the weekend off)

                                      Hi Brandon,


                                      I would appreciate it if you could please just acknowledge my
                                      questions? Here they are again mixed with some other comments -->



                                      --- richar18 <richar18@...> wrote:
                                      > Yes, you are correct with respect to an internal
                                      > field. However, I
                                      > was under the impression that it is not the internal
                                      > field that the
                                      > MCE is reliant upo, but the magnetizing field, "H".

                                      No, the unpaired electron has no way of telling "Oh, this is the field
                                      from a coil" and "Oh, this is the field from another unpaired
                                      electron spin." Nor does it care. Do you agree?



                                      > My energy calculations dont work when you consider the
                                      > internal field, you are correct.
                                      > But THERE IS NO ENERGY STORED IN THE
                                      > INTERNAL FIELD OF AN INDUCTOR.

                                      There sure is. Your math crunching was just off by 1/2. According to
                                      modern physics E = V*B^2/(2*u0). Are you suggesting this equation is
                                      incorrect? The energy is supposedly coming form the intrinsic electron
                                      spin, ***but*** you ***cannot** (as far as I know) keep that energy!
                                      I took this topic up with various QM physicists last year. I suggested
                                      that _perhaps_ the quantum foam or something is cooling down and I
                                      suggested an experiment. They really had no answer as to where the
                                      energy would come from, but encouraged my experiment.


                                      > The energy is stored in the "H" field. I can prove this if you like.

                                      You mean you can show us that there is no _known_ method of
                                      permanently keeping that energy. Nobody said the energy was
                                      permanently available unless of course you keep the core magnetized
                                      forever.

                                      I think it is important here that you please confirm there is
                                      potential energy when magnetic moments go from no alignment to
                                      alignment. Do you acknowledge that?



                                      > "An applied magnetic field forces the atoms into alignment, reducing
                                      > the system's heat capacity and causing it to expel energy"
                                      >
                                      > More proof that the decrease in entropy and DOF is the CAUSE of the
                                      > effect.
                                      >
                                      > http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc98/3_28_98/fob3.htm

                                      That statement definitely does not claim or provide the details what
                                      you think. Lets go over the statement -->

                                      1. "An applied magnetic field forces the atoms into alignment" Correct.
                                      2. "reducing the system's heat capacity" Not always the case. The
                                      NASA guy for example worked on MCE where the heat capacity
                                      _increased_. :-) But this is moot because I already stated that the
                                      energy must come from someplace. Stating there's a dS has no affect on
                                      my theory. What if Magnetostriction also changed with dT. Does that
                                      mean the energy comes from Magnetostriction? Of course not. That's not
                                      science. Avalanche radiation is a fact! If you study internal
                                      radiation you learn the core shorts most of the magnetic fields
                                      because it's a close loop field and most of the UHF radiation is
                                      absorbed near the avalanche burst. If the core is electrically
                                      conductive then we have Eddy currents, which absorb a lot of the
                                      energy, which again heats up the core. The energy is there. You have
                                      the equations.
                                      3. "causing it to expel energy" Correct. Just as he said it "atoms
                                      into alignment" The atom alignment causes the energy. That is exactly
                                      my theory. If anything his explanation is closer to my theory. My
                                      theory is about gaining energy from atoms aligning. There are probably
                                      dozens of effects occurring with an applied field such as dS and
                                      Magnetostriction.

                                      Furthermore, I merely have to show you just one example to disprove
                                      your theory. You are failing to acknowledge nearly all MCE data
                                      contradicts what you are saying. You even acknowledged it yourself
                                      that if the heat capacity changed by a small % that it would kill your
                                      theory. I showed you one of many examples, Finemet, which dS changed
                                      by less than 1/600. Again, do you acknowledge that?

                                      Look at nearly all MCE data. It is scattered all over the net showing
                                      small entropy changes for big MCE on solids containing metals. One
                                      would have to filter out nearly all MCE data on the net to find what
                                      you found, which was a fluid.

                                      Regards,
                                      Paul Lowrance
                                    • richar18
                                      (Note: Apologies for this message being delayed - The moderators took the weekend off) Your explanation of the effect does not point to anything excess. I am
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 20, 2006
                                        (Note: Apologies for this message being delayed - The moderators took the weekend off)

                                        Your explanation of the effect does not point to anything excess. I
                                        am in agreement that the heating is caused by the alignment of the
                                        moments. I am also in agreement that the ambient environment
                                        destroys the alignment of the domains. But I do not see any extra
                                        energy in this interaction.

                                        As for rates of vibration, you are right this does not really factor
                                        in. The decrease in molecular of degrees of freedom by the alignment
                                        of the moments cause an increase in AMPLITUDE (therefore heat) of
                                        the molecule. Imagine a string vibrating in 3 dimensions. If you
                                        then force it to vibrate in only 2 dimensions (reduce DOF) its
                                        amplitude increases. Its as simple as that. When you give back the
                                        third dimension, its amplitude decreases. Simple stuff, no excess
                                        energy.

                                        Regarding the paper you posted, the scaling of the specific heat vs
                                        the entropy change is what matters in this case, not the entropy
                                        alone. Just because the entropy changes by only 0.72 J/Kg*K (which
                                        may not even be the case, due to misunderstanding, since I am
                                        assuming neither one of us has paid the $40 to read the full paper),
                                        does not mean the specific heat can not change by more than this. It
                                        is actually a fact that Cp will change SIGNIFICANTLY with respect to
                                        its baseline value for finemet, at the temps used in the paper. This
                                        is because the specific heat of a magnetic mat'l changes
                                        exponentially as you approach the Curie temp (the slope rises almost
                                        vertically as you increase temp toward Tc, and drops even steeper as
                                        you continue increasing temp away from Tc), which is related to why
                                        the MCE is greatest at the Curie temp. Take a look at the graph on
                                        pg 8 of the following writeup:

                                        http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/mphil/MP4-1.pdf

                                        As the temp of the core increases from the Curie temp to some value
                                        above, the Cp drops off an extreme amount.

                                        The abstract of the paper you sent me doesnt prove anything. Do you
                                        have any substantial evidence of your theory? All I can seem to find
                                        is info pointing to the significant decrease of Cp in proportion to
                                        the temp increase by the MCE, thereby removing any mysticism behind
                                        the effect.

                                        One more thing - I am not confusing anything with magnetostriction.
                                        I have seen many specific definitions for MCE, and the causal
                                        mechanism (aligning domains cause reduction in DOF, thereby
                                        decreasing entropy and increasing temp). Its all very simple in
                                        those terms. regarding the "1/9th or 1/18th energy" that is only if
                                        Cp stays constant (which from the above paper we know it drops
                                        DRASTICALLY as you go above the Curie temp). Since it does not stay
                                        constant, or even close to it, my hypothesis remains that the Cp
                                        reduction accounts for the (incorrectly assumed?) "excess" heat
                                        energy.

                                        And yes, from EVERYTHING I have read so far the Cp drops with MCE.

                                        -Brandon

                                        --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "softwarelabus"
                                        <softwarelabus@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Brandon,
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@> wrote:
                                        > > Sorry Paul, My name is Brandon. Didnt mean to ignore you,
                                        anonymity
                                        > > has become a habit when posting on these groups.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks! It took, what 4 replies to get your attention, lol. No
                                        problem!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [snip]
                                        > > Your formula for magnetic field energy is not quite correct, you
                                        > > forgot to square "B". It is (B^2*V)/(2u0). I know the formula
                                        well,
                                        > > I will have to double check my math for simple errors if the
                                        answer
                                        > > is not right :).
                                        >
                                        > Understood. I think you'll find that you forgot the 1/2 factor in
                                        your
                                        > math. I got ~1/18, not 1/9th, but we both know that's an inaccurate
                                        > method (possibly highly inaccurate) due to complex internal fields.
                                        > It's kind humorous, take my missing ^2 and add it in your missing
                                        1/2
                                        > and we have a fully non-mistyped equation, lol.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > What I stated regarding the Magnetocaloric effect was not my
                                        idea,
                                        > > but is based on existing scientific research on the matter. I
                                        did
                                        > > not know about the effect before you posted about it. I am not
                                        > > spreading disinformation, just stating a null hypothesis. Please
                                        > > prove it wrong (with actual testing), as I would like this to be
                                        > > real as much as anyone.
                                        >
                                        > I'm not certain of that. Here what a NASA employee who worked on
                                        MCE
                                        > recently emailed me :
                                        >
                                        > "Then we remove the magnetic field when the materials temperature
                                        is
                                        > still above Tc. Now as the spins relax back to a random state it
                                        take
                                        > the energy to rotate from the lattice and cools the crystal."
                                        >
                                        > We know that it requires real energy to break (flip) the alignment
                                        of
                                        > many aligned magnetic moments. You acknowledge that, correct?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > I know there is a real temp change, but did NOT know that the Cp
                                        > > only changed by 1/500th. IF this is true, then I will have a
                                        very
                                        > > hard time providing any theoretical evidence against the excess
                                        > > energy claim. How do you know this is the case?
                                        >
                                        > That was for a nanocrystalline material, Finemet, since that's the
                                        > wonder material of interest. :-) -->
                                        >
                                        http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/klu/cjop/2004/00000054/A00100s4
                                        /00000061;jsessionid=21mb18ken30yi.alice
                                        >
                                        > An entropy change for the Finemet is 0.72 J/KgK. Using a specific
                                        heat
                                        > of iron ~ 460 J/KgK, that's a mere 1/639th change in entropy. We
                                        both
                                        > know that the heat is real; i.e., it actually heats up things,
                                        lol. So
                                        > how much energy would it require to heat up such material even if
                                        the
                                        > heat capacity was (460 - 0.72)? BTW, are you sure the heat capacity
                                        > increases for most materials? It seems the NASA guy wrote that in
                                        his
                                        > case it actually increased, meaning that it requires more energy to
                                        > heat it up. Note that Finemet (Fe80.5Nb7B12.5) in the abstract is
                                        > 1/4th MCE as Gd alloys, which is significant, roughly 1 K change in
                                        > temperature per Tesla. That's a lot of energy for just one energy
                                        > exchange.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > Paul, take a look at this link:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR00/MAR00/abs/S5910006.html
                                        > >
                                        > > It is the abstract of a meeting of scientists representing the
                                        Ames
                                        > > laboratory at the Iowa State Unv. I found these statements
                                        > > particulary interesting:
                                        > >
                                        > > "Precise heat capacity data collected as a function of
                                        temperature
                                        > > in various magnetic fields is one of the most accurate indirect
                                        > > techniques available for the characterization of magnetothermal
                                        > > properties of magnetic materials"
                                        > >
                                        > > and
                                        > >
                                        > > "The use of heat capacity data to calculate the magnetocaloric
                                        > > properties of magnetic solids along with a detailed analysis of
                                        > > resulting errors and comparison with other indirect and direct
                                        > > magnetocaloric measurements techniques will be given."
                                        > >
                                        > > Looks like maybe I could be right about the relationship between
                                        the
                                        > > MCE and specific heat?
                                        > >
                                        > > Note one of the presenting scientists is Karl Gschneider, a
                                        pioneer
                                        > > in the field of Magnetocaloric mat'ls.
                                        >
                                        > But I never stated the energy came from nothing. :-) Although the
                                        > above quotes don't claim as to _how_ the material heats up. It just
                                        > states that entropy and temperature go hand in hand, but even that
                                        I
                                        > question. For example I seriously doubt they studied
                                        nanocrystalline
                                        > materials, the wonder material. I believe your description
                                        describes
                                        > Magnetostriction where magnetic field strain causes change in size,
                                        > which in itself would cause temperature changes. We know from pure
                                        > physics that by moving aligned magnetic moments closer to each
                                        other
                                        > requires energy and viscera. Although note the Magnetostriction in
                                        > nanocrystalline materials is nearly zero. Magnetostriction for
                                        Metglas
                                        > 2714AF is <<1 ppm! That in itself could indicate the large MCE in
                                        such
                                        > materials is not caused by magnetic strains, at least for
                                        > nanocrystalline materials.
                                        >
                                        > I don't think the above quotes describe how MCE takes place. Lets
                                        try
                                        > to analyze in further detail what's happening. We know for fact
                                        that a
                                        > magnetic moment that is allowed to align will rotate, thereby
                                        adding
                                        > radiation energy. That being the case my MCE theory is true. You
                                        might
                                        > suggest that it does not generate as much energy as I thought. If
                                        it
                                        > does or does not remains to be seen. According to your math such
                                        > alignment would add 1/9th the reported MCE energy. I calculated
                                        > 1/18th. Regardless, even 1/18th of 15 megawatts is not so shabby
                                        for
                                        > one cubic inch of nanocrystalline material. :-) Anyhow, the
                                        aligning
                                        > moments adds energy, but lets not confuse that effect with magnetic
                                        > strain. We need to view the atoms as not aligned, and then
                                        instantly
                                        > aligned to not focus on the radiated energy associated with flip.
                                        We
                                        > then see magnet strain on the material. So the iron atoms move at
                                        the
                                        > same velocity, but the vibration rate is faster. The air atoms will
                                        > strike the iron atoms at the same rate. So in order to add more
                                        energy
                                        > to the air atoms the iron atoms need to increase in velocity, not
                                        > vibration rate. Remember, the air atoms will still strike the iron
                                        > atom the same amount of collisions per second.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > I wish I could get some of the data presented, to see how the
                                        > > specific heat actually varies for the mat'ls tested. It is a
                                        > > scientific fact that Cp varies proportionally to the change in
                                        > > entropy of the mat'l due to the applied field, but I dont know
                                        what
                                        > > the scaling is. My basic physics background tells me the
                                        specific
                                        > > heat varies in a way that gives further credence to the 1st law
                                        of
                                        > > thermodynamics.
                                        >
                                        > Relatively speaking there's not an enormous amount of data
                                        regarding
                                        > MCE, and all that data as far as I can find (with exception of the
                                        > NASA guy) does not form any specific details on the atomic scale
                                        > what's happening. Only that there's a change in entropy, which is
                                        fine
                                        > with me. :-) Understandably the energy is coming from some place,
                                        and
                                        > the result is a change in entropy. I'm happy with that.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        > Paul Lowrance
                                        >
                                      • softwarelabus
                                        ... took the weekend off) No problem moderator. Brandon and I have been exchanging emails. I wanted to limit the conversation because it s taking far too much
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 24, 2006
                                          --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                                          > (Note: Apologies for this message being delayed - The moderators
                                          took the weekend off)

                                          No problem moderator. Brandon and I have been exchanging emails. I
                                          wanted to limit the conversation because it's taking far too much
                                          time, but I'll briefly reply below :


                                          > Your explanation of the effect does not point to anything excess. I
                                          > am in agreement that the heating is caused by the alignment of the
                                          > moments. I am also in agreement that the ambient environment
                                          > destroys the alignment of the domains. But I do not see any extra
                                          > energy in this interaction.

                                          I'm glad that you're now in agreement with both the NASA guy and me at
                                          least on the ambient cooling. ;-) I'll copy & paste a section from my
                                          previous email ->

                                          ---
                                          Just wanted to quickly explain why it's not accurate
                                          (not complete) to say the amount of energy is
                                          associated with the net field E=V*B^2/(2U0). We
                                          calculated that if we merely consider the energy in
                                          the field we get 1/18th. We know there is a net mean
                                          field of 1 T. That is a given, but lets analyze more
                                          details. To understand the energies involved so we
                                          don't create something from nothing lets analyze this
                                          with current carrying tiny coils. Take 1000's of tiny
                                          coils that have no current that are near each other to
                                          form a one body. This body is in the form of a toroid.
                                          Increase the currents till a net field of 1 T forms.
                                          So a field strength of 1 Tesla just entered all the
                                          coil loops. So we have a net energy change from the
                                          entire magnetic field, E=V*B^2/(2U0). Note that no
                                          parts were moved, so we have no mechanical energy. The
                                          only energy gained was in the magnetic field, but this
                                          took energy from the coils-- back emf (magnetic line
                                          breaking). Note that the coil currents increased and
                                          were not DC like permanent magnets (intrinsic electron
                                          spin).

                                          So lets do another experiment and say all the coils
                                          are separated distance wise, miles away from each
                                          other. Each coil will now have DC current. All the
                                          coils now move toward each other so they form the body
                                          again with 1 T net field. Note that this time the
                                          induced voltage is the same, but we gained both
                                          magnetic field energy and mechanical energy because
                                          all the DC current coils are magnetically attracted
                                          toward each other. This requires more energy because
                                          we have DC current rather than an increasing current.
                                          If we graph this we see it takes twice as much energy
                                          from the coils. So the gained mechanic energy equals
                                          the gain field energy.

                                          Now lets take this one step further. Instead of the DC
                                          current coils being separated, lets just place them
                                          all next to each other (again one big toroid), but
                                          force them to all cancel each others fields out. That
                                          means one coil will be north, the next south, the next
                                          north, etc. This has even more potential energy
                                          because the fields from neighboring coils go the
                                          opposite direction inside the coil and the DC current
                                          coils all repel each other. So now the amount of
                                          energy really depends how close the coils are too each
                                          other. In this case the amount of mechanical energy
                                          gained could be trillions of times higher than
                                          E=V*B^2/(2U0). Can you see why? If not then allow me
                                          to explain. Consider the magnetic moment of an
                                          electron in free space. So far we do not know the size
                                          of the electron and as far as we can tell so far it is
                                          a point. So the field increases exponentially as we
                                          approach the electron. Anyhow, if it's a point or not
                                          is moot. The point is that we have a certain amount of
                                          field energy from the electrons magnetic moment. Now,
                                          lets move another electron near our first electron so
                                          their magnetic moments cancel and repel just as in our
                                          DC current coil experiment. In this case we see the
                                          net magnetic field from the two electrons has vastly
                                          decreased because they are canceling a great deal of
                                          each others fields out. So we have lost energy from
                                          the net field, but we just gained PE (Potential
                                          Energy) because it requires energy to force to
                                          magnetic moments facing each other. The close the
                                          magnetic moments are to each other to more they cancel
                                          each other out, which requires more work/energy.

                                          We know that the intrinsic electron spins always have
                                          a magnetic field. When the material is demagnetized
                                          the domains cancel each other out. So the smaller the
                                          domains the more potential energy we have relative to
                                          the entire core being magnetized. We can clearly see
                                          how the amount of potential energy could be magnitudes
                                          higher than just E=V*B^2/(2U0). The domains in the
                                          high-end nanocrystalline and amorphous magnetic
                                          materials is very small. Sure, not as small as
                                          magnetic material that is in Curie temperature. We
                                          know the magnetic moments at Tc are for the most part
                                          randomized. If they are 100% randomized then that
                                          essentially constitutes the smallest domain size as
                                          possible; i.e., the magnetic moments are all repelling
                                          each other at close distances. Such a close proximity
                                          results in a appreciable amount of the electrons
                                          magnetic moments canceling each other out, which
                                          equates to a lot of PE.
                                          ---

                                          Plenty of energy.



                                          > As for rates of vibration, you are right this does not really factor in.

                                          Indeed. :-)



                                          > The decrease in molecular of degrees of freedom by the alignment
                                          > of the moments cause an increase in AMPLITUDE (therefore heat) of
                                          > the molecule. Imagine a string vibrating in 3 dimensions. If you
                                          > then force it to vibrate in only 2 dimensions (reduce DOF) its
                                          > amplitude increases. Its as simple as that. When you give back the
                                          > third dimension, its amplitude decreases. Simple stuff, no excess
                                          > energy.

                                          The effect of strings as you mention is true, which is caused by a
                                          small displacement (the stretching) equates to a large displacement in
                                          the other dimension (widthwise). This is the same effect as
                                          compressing a gas. The vibrating string applies a pulling force
                                          lengthwise on the string. When you pull and tighten the vibrating
                                          strings it requires a small change lengthwise to result in a large
                                          change in the distance the vibrating string reaches. Essentially you
                                          are compressing the vibrating material, which results in energy. This
                                          theory of magnetic strain on magnetic materials cannot be correct for
                                          many reasons. 1) Magnetostriction can be negative or positive in
                                          magnetic materials. 2) Magnetostriction in most nanocrystalline &
                                          amorphous materials is practically zero. It is so small for Metglas
                                          2714AF that it's listed as <<1 ppm. For Hitachi's Finemet it is listed
                                          as 0 (zero).

                                          Having written dozens of computer simulations I just can't see how
                                          magnetic strain could even remotely enter the picture as change of
                                          entropy when there's no change in size, zero Magnetostriction.



                                          > Regarding the paper you posted, the scaling of the specific heat vs
                                          > the entropy change is what matters in this case, not the entropy
                                          > alone. Just because the entropy changes by only 0.72 J/Kg*K (which
                                          > may not even be the case, due to misunderstanding, since I am
                                          > assuming neither one of us has paid the $40 to read the full paper),
                                          > does not mean the specific heat can not change by more than this. It
                                          > is actually a fact that Cp will change SIGNIFICANTLY with respect to
                                          > its baseline value for finemet, at the temps used in the paper. This
                                          > is because the specific heat of a magnetic mat'l changes
                                          > exponentially as you approach the Curie temp (the slope rises almost
                                          > vertically as you increase temp toward Tc, and drops even steeper as
                                          > you continue increasing temp away from Tc), which is related to why
                                          > the MCE is greatest at the Curie temp. Take a look at the graph on
                                          > pg 8 of the following writeup:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/mphil/MP4-1.pdf
                                          >
                                          > As the temp of the core increases from the Curie temp to some value
                                          > above, the Cp drops off an extreme amount.
                                          >
                                          > The abstract of the paper you sent me doesnt prove anything. Do you
                                          > have any substantial evidence of your theory? All I can seem to find
                                          > is info pointing to the significant decrease of Cp in proportion to
                                          > the temp increase by the MCE, thereby removing any mysticism behind
                                          > the effect.

                                          First off you make error in assuming such magnetic materials are in
                                          Curie temperature, which is not true. Of course MCE is max around Tc,
                                          which is what I have been saying since the theory predicts that
                                          because domains decrease in size as temperature increases. I've seen
                                          many MCE graphs of different Finemet materials and they all have
                                          appreciable MCE far below Curie temperature.

                                          It is true that Cp does not have to be linear, but to suggest that Cp
                                          drops by magnitudes from simply magnetizing such a core to 1 T sounds
                                          like science fiction. I have two Metglas cores. A human could be
                                          trained to detect small Cp changes, but not the average person, but
                                          don't you think an average human would be able to detect Cp change
                                          from 450 to nearly zero just by touch? At such low Cp the metal
                                          temperature would almost instantly increase from room temperature to
                                          body temperature from touch. Metal is cold to the touch and remains
                                          cold for an appreciable time while the metal heats up.



                                          > And yes, from EVERYTHING I have read so far the Cp drops with MCE.

                                          No, I firmly believe the NASA employee was telling the truth when he
                                          stated the heat capacity increased in the material he studied.



                                          Also you stated that I was incorrect in that it requires the same
                                          energy to magnetize a core to the same field strength if the
                                          permeability doubles. It is important that people do not hold such an
                                          incorrect idea about magnetic materials as this could easily hinder
                                          and misguide such research.

                                          Therefore it is important that people here know that in private email
                                          you acknowledged your error. Here is a quote on your original *claim* -->

                                          --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "richar18" <richar18@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > This reply is only geared towards the comment regarding the energy it
                                          > takes to magnetize with respect to permeability. I will respond to
                                          > the excess MCE energy later:
                                          >
                                          > It is a misnomer that it takes half the energy to GENERATE the same
                                          > magnetic field within a mat'l of twice the permeability. Lets first
                                          > use a coil/core as an example. The greater the permeability of the
                                          > core, the higher the inductance of the system. The higher the
                                          > inductance, the more voltage is required to GENERATE the same
                                          > magnetic field, albeit with proportionally less current. The energy
                                          > consumed by the coil is the same regardless of the core permeability.
                                          >
                                          > Another way to look at it is to identify the force it takes to detach
                                          > a magnet from a piece of magnetic mat'l. The energy inside the
                                          > magnetic mat'l due to the magnetizing field is equal to the energy it
                                          > will take to seperate the magnet from the mat'l over a distance until
                                          > the force of attraction equals zero. This energy rises with
                                          > permeability, because the force vs distance increases in proportion
                                          > to the permeability.
                                          >
                                          > I would like to stress that if permeability increases, it takes the
                                          > SAME amount of energy to GENERATE the same field within a mat'l of
                                          > the same dimensions.


                                          Regards,
                                          Paul Lowrance
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