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Re: help needed for MEG tuning

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  • ccool_j
    ... the real ... Bearden told ... but the ... beyond the ... secondaries was ... the key ... the core ... errant ... it s so ... Thank you for your insight on
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 25, 2006
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      > I intend on getting back to it, but after I have a better idea what
      the real
      > issues are with the construct... and I know for a fact, because
      Bearden told
      > us in his email, that it's not the stength of the permanet magnet,
      but the
      > core's ability to completely contain the magnet's field that was the
      > important realationship... by having the magnet field not project
      beyond the
      > core the chances of interference by the core's field in the
      secondaries was
      > reduced... and assisted the construct to a COP greater that one...
      the key
      > is to get the event horizon. to borrow a term, in the two sides of
      the core
      > as open as possible to the flow of "energy"... any interference from
      errant
      > magnetic fields distorts the opening trying to be created in the event
      > horizon created by the pulses through the core that the secondries are
      > supposed to tap...
      >
      > Sorry if this is meaningless to you, but I've read so many emails from
      > engineers arguing useless warmed over basic electronic shit, when
      it's so
      > obvious they can't see the big picture.... I just sigh...
      >
      > Brent Selleck
      >

      Thank you for your insight on the matter.

      As you said, one of the important factor is to get the magnetic field
      from the magnet all contained in the core. Which is why (as far as I
      know) Metglas core should be better. Because of the huge magnetic
      permeability of these kind of core. As a matter of fact, once the
      magnet was in the core, I was unable to remove it from there (without
      damaging the core)

      Still, Having read the book, and a few other things, I still think
      that some information is missing/misunderstood. As for myself, if I
      knew everything (about the meg ;) I would not be asking for some hints.

      I have been told that the magic would be happening when the core start
      to saturate. Someone else also pointed me out that my magnet could be
      too powerful. I seriously doubt that. The magnet has an area of
      967.74mm(square) with a field density (Beta) of 1.3 tesla. The core
      saturate at a field density of about 1.4 -1.5 tesla (core complete
      saturation at 1.54 tesla) also, the area of the core is
      1102.5mm(square).

      so, when you have no inputs, the core flux is about 1.3Tesla right in
      front of the magnet, but elsewhere, it is more:
      (1.3 * (967.74 / 1102.5) ) / 2 = 0.57055 Tesla

      *** note, the whole thing is divided by two because the flux separate
      between the thow "branches" of the core ***

      Anyway, to prove this "partial saturation" thesis, I'll need some
      better electronics, becaus mine is burning when the back emf from the
      input coils create voltage over 100Volts... (wich is about 30 volts in)

      I'll try to get something that works at 500 volts and I'll tell you
      how it goes. With that kind of electronics, I'll be able to reach the
      optimal +70 Volts that Bearden was talking about.

      Ccool
    • Brent Selleck
      You point out one the more interesting aspects to all of this... the ability to measure what s really going on... I sell robotic lawn mowers that use a
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 26, 2006
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        You point out one the more interesting aspects to all of this... the ability
        to measure what's really going on... I sell robotic lawn mowers that use a
        energized wire to creat a magnetic field for the electronics of the mower to
        respond to... when I went out to get a magnetometer to measure the fields
        the wires are producing I found such equipment difficult to come by... the
        probes imprecise... the strength of the background field of the earth a
        mitigating factor

        The instruments are better now, but measuring a magnetic field, it's
        orientation, it's strength and so forth is still pretty imprecise... a true
        measure of the field in the core would require an internal probe... right
        now we (you, I and all the others trying to reproduce this effect) are
        actually guessing... once we enter the realm of guessing we are into the
        "black arts"... strangely I feel a kinship with Edison when I consider the
        challenges here... Bearden's team has an irreplaced pool of empirical
        knowledge we collectively must accumulate...
        I believe we are on the road...

        Brent



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "ccool_j" <ccool_j@...>
        To: <MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2006 7:09 PM
        Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: help needed for MEG tuning


        >
        >> I intend on getting back to it, but after I have a better idea what
        > the real
        >> issues are with the construct... and I know for a fact, because
        > Bearden told
        >> us in his email, that it's not the stength of the permanet magnet,
        > but the
        >> core's ability to completely contain the magnet's field that was the
        >> important realationship... by having the magnet field not project
        > beyond the
        >> core the chances of interference by the core's field in the
        > secondaries was
        >> reduced... and assisted the construct to a COP greater that one...
        > the key
        >> is to get the event horizon. to borrow a term, in the two sides of
        > the core
        >> as open as possible to the flow of "energy"... any interference from
        > errant
        >> magnetic fields distorts the opening trying to be created in the event
        >> horizon created by the pulses through the core that the secondries are
        >> supposed to tap...
        >>
        >> Sorry if this is meaningless to you, but I've read so many emails from
        >> engineers arguing useless warmed over basic electronic shit, when
        > it's so
        >> obvious they can't see the big picture.... I just sigh...
        >>
        >> Brent Selleck
        >>
        >
        > Thank you for your insight on the matter.
        >
        > As you said, one of the important factor is to get the magnetic field
        > from the magnet all contained in the core. Which is why (as far as I
        > know) Metglas core should be better. Because of the huge magnetic
        > permeability of these kind of core. As a matter of fact, once the
        > magnet was in the core, I was unable to remove it from there (without
        > damaging the core)
        >
        > Still, Having read the book, and a few other things, I still think
        > that some information is missing/misunderstood. As for myself, if I
        > knew everything (about the meg ;) I would not be asking for some hints.
        >
        > I have been told that the magic would be happening when the core start
        > to saturate. Someone else also pointed me out that my magnet could be
        > too powerful. I seriously doubt that. The magnet has an area of
        > 967.74mm(square) with a field density (Beta) of 1.3 tesla. The core
        > saturate at a field density of about 1.4 -1.5 tesla (core complete
        > saturation at 1.54 tesla) also, the area of the core is
        > 1102.5mm(square).
        >
        > so, when you have no inputs, the core flux is about 1.3Tesla right in
        > front of the magnet, but elsewhere, it is more:
        > (1.3 * (967.74 / 1102.5) ) / 2 = 0.57055 Tesla
        >
        > *** note, the whole thing is divided by two because the flux separate
        > between the thow "branches" of the core ***
        >
        > Anyway, to prove this "partial saturation" thesis, I'll need some
        > better electronics, becaus mine is burning when the back emf from the
        > input coils create voltage over 100Volts... (wich is about 30 volts in)
        >
        > I'll try to get something that works at 500 volts and I'll tell you
        > how it goes. With that kind of electronics, I'll be able to reach the
        > optimal +70 Volts that Bearden was talking about.
        >
        > Ccool
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Main page:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders
        >
        >
        > To post a message to this group, send email to
        > MEG_Builders@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To contact the moderator of this group, send email to
        > MEG_Builders-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
        > MEG_Builders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • ey930
        ... As the core goes into saturation, the field will be less contained in it, so if good things happen when saturation occurs, it refutes the idea that high
        Message 3 of 13 , Apr 29, 2006
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          --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "ccool_j" <ccool_j@...> wrote:
          >...
          > As you said, one of the important factor is to get the magnetic field
          > from the magnet all contained in the core. Which is why (as far as I
          > know) Metglas core should be better. Because of the huge magnetic
          > permeability of these kind of core...
          > I have been told that the magic would be happening when the core start
          > to saturate...
          > Anyway, to prove this "partial saturation" thesis, I'll need some
          > better electronics, becaus mine is burning when the back emf from the
          > input coils create voltage over 100Volts... (wich is about 30 volts in)
          >
          > I'll try to get something that works at 500 volts and I'll tell you
          > how it goes. With that kind of electronics, I'll be able to reach the
          > optimal +70 Volts that Bearden was talking about.
          >
          > Ccool
          >
          As the core goes into saturation, the field will be less contained in
          it, so if good things happen when saturation occurs, it refutes the
          idea that high permiability and low field fringing is needed. Also,
          note that there are several formulations of metglas materials.
          "Distributed gap" is another way of saying reduced permiability.

          You can get the saturation you want without higher voltages, just
          reduce the frequency. The magnetic field depends on the curent not the
          voltage, so increasing the time and leaving the voltage constant
          increases the current thru the inductor. If the EMF on trun off
          (flyback) is too high, it is because of lack of load on the secondary
          which should be tightly coupled to the core (atleast if it is to have
          low fringing fields)
        • Norm Fletcher
          In looking at your output waveforms, it appears that your MEG is still a Biased transformer . Note the skewed output waveform. Try changing the input
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 3, 2006
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            In looking at your output waveforms, it appears that your MEG is still a "Biased
            transformer". Note the skewed output waveform. Try changing the input frequency/
            voltage so that the output is a perfect sinewave. (believe me, that's the trick!) Only then is
            the output a result of only switching the flux of your magnet. Right now, the primary is
            producing external flux and that flux is intercepting the secondaries. The MEG has become
            a transformer (like the rest of us) with a COP<1

            > Hi, it's me again,
            >
            > I have some updates and some graphics. Theses graphics show one of my
            > biggest challenge into understanding and making work the MEG.
            >
            > This one:
            > http://cf.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ccool_j/
            detail?.dir=cdf7re2&.dnm=7824re2.jpg&.src=ph
            >
            > is a graph of the voltage at the entry of my Coils. The graph is
            > "inverted" because when the tension is zero, it means that there is
            > some current going in. If you refer to JL Nadin's design, I am
            > reading the tension between the Fets and the input coils. As you can
            > see in this picture, there is a lot of resonnating freqencies in
            > there. On the graph, I have chosen a frequency that minimises the
            > effects. Well at least the "first big peak" of the high frequency in
            > there. I was wondering if any of you observed phenomenon like these
            > on their MEG or mine just has too many parasites
            > (capacitorS/inductors/resistors)
            >
            > By the way, the reason why the tension goes on the minus side is
            > because I added a protecting diode to bloc the current and protec my
            > Fets. But even without this protective diode I still have the
            > resonnating effect.
            >
            > Also, on this graph:
            > http://cf.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ccool_j/
            detail?.dir=cdf7re2&.dnm=5edfre2.jpg&.src=ph
            >
            > You can see both of my output (tension divided by 6 with a 66kohm
            > total resistor)
            >
            > I have been trying to figure out what is causing that "bump" on the
            > sinus wave. If you look carefully, you can see it is only on the
            > "upper" side of the graphic. If I push up the frequency, I can
            > diminish the bump-effect, but my COP is going down very fast... That's
            > why I was wondering if anyonw had this effect or could explain (or
            > give a good hint)
            >
            > This graph is kind of giving me an idea,
            > http://cf.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ccool_j/
            detail?.dir=cdf7re2&.dnm=d250re2.jpg&.src=ph
            >
            > It is a graph showing the entry (1) with the output (1). As you can
            > see, there is a phase between the output and input, which is leading
            > me to think that the bump and the high frencies mentionned before are
            > linked somehow...
            >
            > I know this mail is getting long, that's why I won't talk right now
            > about the other aspect of COP based on average DC current vs RMS
            > current. (curious peaple can look into the other pictures in this album)
            >
            > Thank you for reading and commenting. I really like to read you
            > comments. I've read a lot of previous message now, it is very
            > instructing.
            >
            > Ccool
            >
          • Wayne Robey
            On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 05:56:48 -0000 Norm Fletcher wrote ... I have 2 comments, for which I hope to see a reply: Since the core is
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 5, 2006
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              On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 05:56:48 -0000
              "Norm Fletcher" <fletchmo47@...> wrote
              > In looking at your output waveforms, it appears that your MEG is still a
              > "Biased transformer". Note the skewed output waveform. Try changing the
              > input frequency/voltage so that the output is a perfect sinewave.
              > (believe me, that's the trick!) Only then is the output a result of only
              > switching the flux of your magnet. Right now, the primary is
              > producing external flux and that flux is intercepting the secondaries. The
              > MEG has become a transformer (like the rest of us) with a COP<1

              I have 2 comments, for which I hope to see a reply:
              Since the core is not continuously saturated, the primary will always couple highly to the secondary on it's leg. From previous posts indicating that keeping the field created by the primary in the core is critical, it would follow that this coupling would be large. As the thickness to width (c/b) of the secondary increases, the coupling of the secondary to the core decreases. At some point the coupling to the primary could be loose enough to clearly observe the self resonance of this core. You can see this clearly in old TV fly-back transformers. Could this secondary resonance be what you are tuning for?


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            • Norm Fletcher
              ... secondary on it s leg. You can see this clearly in old TV fly-back transformers. Could this secondary resonance be what you are tuning for? OK Let me see
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 18, 2006
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                --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Robey" <robeyw@...> wrote:
                >
                > Since the core is not continuously saturated, the primary will always couple highly to the
                secondary on it's leg.

                You can see this clearly in old TV fly-back transformers. Could this secondary resonance
                be what you are tuning for?

                OK
                Let me see if I can make clear what I've been trying to point out. You make an excellent
                point in the first statement "Since the core is not continuously saturated, the primary will
                always couple highly to the secondary on it's leg".
                It's just that we don't want ANY coupling. Before you think I just don't understand
                transformers I'd like to point out that a perfectly successful MEG is NOT a transformer. It is
                a dual closed flux pathway with 2 flux switches.
                Consider a MEG core with output coils and magnet as we see on the patent. Now, instead
                of input coils, we cut an air gap in the core and put in that gap a "magic" material that
                would act as a switch for the flux. The 'magic' stuff would react to a low power electronic
                input by radically changing it's permeability from very permeable to perhaps the
                permeability of air. It would do this without introducing flux into the core. The only flux in
                the core would be the magnet's.
                The primary coils described in the MEG patent, IF wound properly, IF excited with a
                correctly shaped waveform, IF firing at exactly the right frequency, will, in theory, give us
                an over-unity condition. The problem arises in the delicate balance of necessary "IF"
                conditions that must be met for a successful experiment. What I'm suggesting is that we
                knock out some of these "IFs" by dropping the input coils as they are described in the
                patent and work on some kind of flux switch for the core instead. This could be a new,
                specially designed coil, or an exotic array of metals or something else. What Dr. Bearden
                has said all along is that we need to stop thinking along the lines of traditional
                transformer building. Anyway, that's what I've been working on.

                Norm
              • Brent Selleck
                Very well said.... and I await your results eagerly... ... From: Norm Fletcher To: Sent: Tuesday,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 19, 2006
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                  Very well said.... and I await your results eagerly...


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Norm Fletcher" <fletchmo47@...>
                  To: <MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2006 7:48 PM
                  Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: help needed for MEG tuning


                  > --- In MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com, "Wayne Robey" <robeyw@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Since the core is not continuously saturated, the primary will always
                  >> couple highly to the
                  > secondary on it's leg.
                  >
                  > You can see this clearly in old TV fly-back transformers. Could this
                  > secondary resonance
                  > be what you are tuning for?
                  >
                  > OK
                  > Let me see if I can make clear what I've been trying to point out. You
                  > make an excellent
                  > point in the first statement "Since the core is not continuously
                  > saturated, the primary will
                  > always couple highly to the secondary on it's leg".
                  > It's just that we don't want ANY coupling. Before you think I just don't
                  > understand
                  > transformers I'd like to point out that a perfectly successful MEG is NOT
                  > a transformer. It is
                  > a dual closed flux pathway with 2 flux switches.
                  > Consider a MEG core with output coils and magnet as we see on the
                  > patent. Now, instead
                  > of input coils, we cut an air gap in the core and put in that gap a
                  > "magic" material that
                  > would act as a switch for the flux. The 'magic' stuff would react to a low
                  > power electronic
                  > input by radically changing it's permeability from very permeable to
                  > perhaps the
                  > permeability of air. It would do this without introducing flux into the
                  > core. The only flux in
                  > the core would be the magnet's.
                  > The primary coils described in the MEG patent, IF wound properly, IF
                  > excited with a
                  > correctly shaped waveform, IF firing at exactly the right frequency, will,
                  > in theory, give us
                  > an over-unity condition. The problem arises in the delicate balance of
                  > necessary "IF"
                  > conditions that must be met for a successful experiment. What I'm
                  > suggesting is that we
                  > knock out some of these "IFs" by dropping the input coils as they are
                  > described in the
                  > patent and work on some kind of flux switch for the core instead. This
                  > could be a new,
                  > specially designed coil, or an exotic array of metals or something else.
                  > What Dr. Bearden
                  > has said all along is that we need to stop thinking along the lines of
                  > traditional
                  > transformer building. Anyway, that's what I've been working on.
                  >
                  > Norm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Main page:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders
                  >
                  >
                  > To post a message to this group, send email to
                  > MEG_Builders@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To contact the moderator of this group, send email to
                  > MEG_Builders-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
                  > MEG_Builders-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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