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Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and ordering of prececession phase

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  • Jürgen v Ooijen
    Koen, Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG. According to him it s the key off it all. He is at least convinced that he measures things going
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 23, 2002
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      Koen,
       
      Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG.
      According to him it's the key off it all.
      He is at least convinced that he measures things going in reverse.
      Like, electrons atracting eachother and protons attracting each other, while electrons and proton push eachother away.
      He also seems to measure reversed magnetic effect, left hand rule becomes right hand and sofort.
      If we want to take Bearden and the MEG serious we can not ignore these "facts".
      We have to define and explain them.
      Not believing in them might be the true but it's just not an option in this group when we want to copy what Bearden presents to us.
       
      Regards,
      Jürgen
      Jürgen,
       
      I don´t believe in time reversing at all.
      If a phase conjugate mirror really time reversed a signal,
      then a sender would receive the reflection at the same
      time it sends the signal.
       
      The scientist who can proof this wins the Nobel price.
       
      I suppose time-reversed signals do not exist, and in this way
      one cannot understand a phase conjugate mirror.
      Such a mirror only reverses the signal phase, not the direction
      of time of the signal.
       
      Regards,
      Koen
       
      Cyril, Koen,
       
      How would all this hold under time reversed circumstances?
      Would the exponential decay also be reversed? 
      And off course how could we get in to that time reversed situation?
       
      Jürgen
    • Cyril SMITH
      Jurgen ... From: Jürgen v Ooijen To: MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:46 AM Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 24, 2002
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        Jurgen
          
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:46 AM
        Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and ordering of prececession phase

        Koen,
         
        Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG.
        According to him it's the key off it all.
        Bearden weaves a complicated story using all his favourite characters, a story so complex that only he understands it.  If you look at his MEG writings in chronological order you will see that he introduces new concepts as he goes along.  His original MEG document was not specific about time reversal, nor the use of the Aharanov-Bohm effect.  Why do we have to believe his latest ramblings?  What we must believe is that the MEG actually works (there are plenty of sceptics who believe that it is a scam or just measured wrong).  Then not give up until we ourselves make one that works.  Then we can put our own interpretation as to why it works.  I have my own views which I have posted in the past, repeated below.
        He is at least convinced that he measures things going in reverse.
        Like, electrons atracting eachother and protons attracting each other, while electrons and proton push eachother away.
        He also seems to measure reversed magnetic effect, left hand rule becomes right hand and sofort.
        He might state these as examples of "time reversal" but I have not seen a direct reference to these playing a part in the MEG, and personally I think these interprations of time reversal are wrong.  You can't reverse time.  You can make a system which behaves in a different manner to usual, but that is not time running backwards.  The references you posted on phase conjugate mirrors do not reveal an insight into real time reversal   Making things seem to run backwards is magical when you don't understand what is going on, but is really quite straight forward (no pun intended).
        If we want to take Bearden and the MEG serious we can not ignore these "facts".
        We have to define and explain them.
        Not believing in them might be the true but it's just not an option in this group when we want to copy what Bearden presents to us.
         
        I have been an electronics engineer and physicist since leaving school in 1950.  I spent my whole working career in electromagnetics.  I am still learning things about magnetic circuits, not Beardenese but simple things which have been overlooked by our forefathers.  I think the secret to the MEG is:-
        (a) Use two identical resonant LCR circuits (that is the two secondary windings and the two core halves).  They must be identical, including their load resistors.
        (b) Arrange that the the AC flux change from peak positive to peak negative flows partially outside the core (connecting one drive coil to an AC short circuit at the correct time in the AC cycle will do this) and through a magnet (this requires the drive coil to have the right geometry, the diverted AC flux has a long path around the outside of the shorted coil).
        (c) The atomic dipoles in the magnet are forced (by the flux change) to give up energy during this half cycle and some of this energy goes into the load R's.
        (d) Remove the short from the drive coil, the diverted AC flux now jumps back into the core.  This happens quickly.  The identical fluxes in the two core halves don't change, so there is no induced voltage to couple to the secondary tuned circuits.  The sudden flux change through the magnet is opposite to the previous change, so the atomic dipoles regain some energy, but because there is no coupling to the resonant circuits they can't regain energy from there, Nature supplies the resetting energy.
        (e) The resonant circuits will continue with their oscillation, on the next half cycle the flux goes from peak negative to peak positive.  Arrange that the this opposite polarity AC flux change flows partially outside the core and through the magnet in a direction that the magnet again gives up energy to the load (connecting the other drive coil to an AC short circuit will do this).
        (f) Remove the short from the drive coil as in (d).
        That is now a complete cycle.
        Using transistors as shorting switches requires them to draw current, so you need a DC supply, then your circuit looks very much like a push-pull square-wave driver.  This low power drive gets the resonant circuits going, but it is the alternate switching of the magnet into the flux paths which supplies the large pumping power from the magnet.
         
        Regards
        Cyril 
      • davidj95650
        Hi Cyril, ... prececession phase ... [snipped - see message 1017] ... school in 1950. I spent my whole working career in electromagnetics. I am still learning
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 24, 2002
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          Hi Cyril,

          --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Cyril SMITH" <cyrilsmith@c...> wrote:
          > Jurgen
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Jürgen v Ooijen
          > To: MEG_builders@y...
          > Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:46 AM
          > Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and ordering of
          prececession phase
          >
          >
          > Koen,
          >
          > Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG.
          > According to him it's the key off it all.

          [snipped - see message 1017]

          >
          > I have been an electronics engineer and physicist since leaving
          school in 1950. I spent my whole working career in electromagnetics.
          I am still learning things about magnetic circuits, not Beardenese but
          simple things which have been overlooked by our forefathers. I think
          the secret to the MEG is:-
          > (a) Use two identical resonant LCR circuits (that is the two
          secondary windings and the two core halves). They must be identical,
          including their load resistors.
          > (b) Arrange that the the AC flux change from peak positive to peak
          negative flows partially outside the core (connecting one drive coil
          to an AC short circuit at the correct time in the AC cycle will do
          this) and through a magnet (this requires the drive coil to have the
          right geometry, the diverted AC flux has a long path around the
          outside of the shorted coil).
          > (c) The atomic dipoles in the magnet are forced (by the flux change)
          to give up energy during this half cycle and some of this energy goes
          into the load R's.
          > (d) Remove the short from the drive coil, the diverted AC flux now
          jumps back into the core. This happens quickly. The identical fluxes
          in the two core halves don't change, so there is no induced voltage to
          couple to the secondary tuned circuits. The sudden flux change
          through the magnet is opposite to the previous change, so the atomic
          dipoles regain some energy, but because there is no coupling to the
          resonant circuits they can't regain energy from there, Nature supplies
          the resetting energy.
          > (e) The resonant circuits will continue with their oscillation, on
          the next half cycle the flux goes from peak negative to peak positive.
          Arrange that the this opposite polarity AC flux change flows partially
          outside the core and through the magnet in a direction that the magnet
          again gives up energy to the load (connecting the other drive coil to
          an AC short circuit will do this).
          > (f) Remove the short from the drive coil as in (d).
          > That is now a complete cycle.
          > Using transistors as shorting switches requires them to draw
          current, so you need a DC supply, then your circuit looks very much
          like a push-pull square-wave driver. This low power drive gets the
          resonant circuits going, but it is the alternate switching of the
          magnet into the flux paths which supplies the large pumping power from
          the magnet.
          >
          > Regards
          > Cyril

          I tried a configuration very similar to your approach, where one
          MOSFET charged the drive coil, and another then switched on to
          maintain the current (and flux) in that coil. All that I found
          was that I could greatly reduce the active drive time, because
          the holding action allowed time for the coil current/core flux to
          charge the capacitive reactance of the output coils. There was no
          significant increase in power through-put.
          Are you saying that the opposite drive coil should be held so that
          flux can not build on the opposite limb while charging a drive coil ?
          BTW, the conductance of NIB magnets is so high, it's difficult to
          conceive of any flux change in the PM due to eddy currents at the 40
          kHz operating frequency.
          Please continue this discussion.
          Thanks,
          David J.
        • Jürgen v Ooijen
          Cyril, Jurgen Koen, Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG. According to him it s the key off it all. Bearden weaves a complicated story using
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 25, 2002
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            Cyril,
            Jurgen
              
             
            Koen,
             
            Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG.
            According to him it's the key off it all.
            Bearden weaves a complicated story using all his favourite characters, a story so complex that only he understands it.  If you look at his MEG writings in chronological order you will see that he introduces new concepts as he goes along.  His original MEG document was not specific about time reversal, nor the use of the Aharanov-Bohm effect.  Why do we have to believe his latest ramblings?  What we must believe is that the MEG actually works (there are plenty of sceptics who believe that it is a scam or just measured wrong).  Then not give up until we ourselves make one that works.  Then we can put our own interpretation as to why it works.  I have my own views which I have posted in the past, repeated below.
            He is at least convinced that he measures things going in reverse.
            Like, electrons atracting eachother and protons attracting each other, while electrons and proton push eachother away.
            He also seems to measure reversed magnetic effect, left hand rule becomes right hand and sofort.
            He might state these as examples of "time reversal" but I have not seen a direct reference to these playing a part in the MEG, and personally I think these interprations of time reversal are wrong.  You can't reverse time.  You can make a system which behaves in a different manner to usual, but that is not time running backwards.  The references you posted on phase conjugate mirrors do not reveal an insight into real time reversal   Making things seem to run backwards is magical when you don't understand what is going on, but is really quite straight forward (no pun intended).
             
            Time as you describe it is just a percteption of us human beings. This perception cannot be reversed unless the processes in our own body are running backward in  (wich is possible under your definition off time reversal). I believe that Bearden just like you means with "time reversal" (or Negentropy) that things are running backwards in our perception. So I believe that you and Bearden use the same definition. Having said this we are still left with him "measuring" those "time reversal"effects in the MEG. Which brings me back to my earlier questions What does this mean for exitation into oscilation using lower frequencies than spin or prececion frequencies?
             
            If we want to take Bearden and the MEG serious we can not ignore these "facts".
            We have to define and explain them.
            Not believing in them might be the true but it's just not an option in this group when we want to copy what Bearden presents to us.
             
            I have been an electronics engineer and physicist since leaving school in 1950.  I spent my whole working career in electromagnetics.  I am still learning things about magnetic circuits, not Beardenese but simple things which have been overlooked by our forefathers.
             
            It would be great if you wrote an article on all those effects, describing and maybe explaining them in clear terms even understandable for Mechanical engineers.
            You would at least make me very happy if not the entire MEG-group.
             
              I think the secret to the MEG is:-
            (a) Use two identical resonant LCR circuits (that is the two secondary windings and the two core halves).  They must be identical, including their load resistors.
            (b) Arrange that the the AC flux change from peak positive to peak negative flows partially outside the core (connecting one drive coil to an AC short circuit at the correct time in the AC cycle will do this) and through a magnet (this requires the drive coil to have the right geometry, the diverted AC flux has a long path around the outside of the shorted coil).
            (c) The atomic dipoles in the magnet are forced (by the flux change) to give up energy during this half cycle and some of this energy goes into the load R's.
            (d) Remove the short from the drive coil, the diverted AC flux now jumps back into the core.  This happens quickly.  The identical fluxes in the two core halves don't change, so there is no induced voltage to couple to the secondary tuned circuits.  The sudden flux change through the magnet is opposite to the previous change, so the atomic dipoles regain some energy, but because there is no coupling to the resonant circuits they can't regain energy from there, Nature supplies the resetting energy.
            (e) The resonant circuits will continue with their oscillation, on the next half cycle the flux goes from peak negative to peak positive.  Arrange that the this opposite polarity AC flux change flows partially outside the core and through the magnet in a direction that the magnet again gives up energy to the load (connecting the other drive coil to an AC short circuit will do this).
            (f) Remove the short from the drive coil as in (d).
            That is now a complete cycle.
            Using transistors as shorting switches requires them to draw current, so you need a DC supply, then your circuit looks very much like a push-pull square-wave driver.  This low power drive gets the resonant circuits going, but it is the alternate switching of the magnet into the flux paths which supplies the large pumping power from the magnet.
             
            Sounds good. But maybe I didn't quite understand it in full. Would you measure "Beardenese time reversal effects" in the MEG during this cycle? and if so, where?
             
            Regards
            Cyril 
             
            Regards
            Jürgen
          • Cyril SMITH
            Hi DavidJ, ... From: davidj95650 To: MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:31 AM Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: spin resonance and ordering
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 25, 2002
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              Hi DavidJ,
                
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 7:31 AM
              Subject: [MEG_builders] Re: spin resonance and ordering of prececession phase

              Hi Cyril,

              --- In MEG_builders@y..., "Cyril SMITH" <cyrilsmith@c...> wrote:
              > Jurgen
              >  
              >   ----- Original Message -----
              >   From: Jürgen v Ooijen
              >   To: MEG_builders@y...
              >   Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 12:46 AM
              >   Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and ordering of
              prececession phase
              >
              >
              >   Koen,
              >   
              >   Bearden is very specific about time reversal in the MEG.
              >   According to him it's the key off it all.

              [snipped - see message 1017]

              >
              > I have been an electronics engineer and physicist since leaving
              school in 1950.  I spent my whole working career in electromagnetics. 
              I am still learning things about magnetic circuits, not Beardenese but
              simple things which have been overlooked by our forefathers.  I think
              the secret to the MEG is:-
              > (a) Use two identical resonant LCR circuits (that is the two
              secondary windings and the two core halves).  They must be identical,
              including their load resistors.
              > (b) Arrange that the the AC flux change from peak positive to peak
              negative flows partially outside the core (connecting one drive coil
              to an AC short circuit at the correct time in the AC cycle will do
              this) and through a magnet (this requires the drive coil to have the
              right geometry, the diverted AC flux has a long path around the
              outside of the shorted coil).
              > (c) The atomic dipoles in the magnet are forced (by the flux change)
              to give up energy during this half cycle and some of this energy goes
              into the load R's.
              > (d) Remove the short from the drive coil, the diverted AC flux now
              jumps back into the core.  This happens quickly.  The identical fluxes
              in the two core halves don't change, so there is no induced voltage to
              couple to the secondary tuned circuits.  The sudden flux change
              through the magnet is opposite to the previous change, so the atomic
              dipoles regain some energy, but because there is no coupling to the
              resonant circuits they can't regain energy from there, Nature supplies
              the resetting energy.
              > (e) The resonant circuits will continue with their oscillation, on
              the next half cycle the flux goes from peak negative to peak positive. 
              Arrange that the this opposite polarity AC flux change flows partially
              outside the core and through the magnet in a direction that the magnet
              again gives up energy to the load (connecting the other drive coil to
              an AC short circuit will do this).
              > (f) Remove the short from the drive coil as in (d).
              > That is now a complete cycle.
              > Using transistors as shorting switches requires them to draw
              current, so you need a DC supply, then your circuit looks very much
              like a push-pull square-wave driver.  This low power drive gets the
              resonant circuits going, but it is the alternate switching of the
              magnet into the flux paths which supplies the large pumping power from
              the magnet.
              >
              > Regards
              > Cyril

                I tried a configuration very similar to your approach, where one
              MOSFET charged the drive coil, and another then switched on to
              maintain the current (and flux) in that coil.  All that I found
              was that I could greatly reduce the active drive time, because
              the holding action allowed time for the coil current/core flux to
              charge the capacitive reactance of the output coils.  There was no
              significant increase in power through-put.
                Are you saying that the opposite drive coil should be held so that
              flux can not build on the opposite limb while charging a drive coil ?
              I am not saying that, although that might be something to try.
                BTW, the conductance of NIB magnets is so high, it's difficult to
              conceive of any flux change in the PM due to eddy currents at the 40
              kHz operating frequency.
              That is a good point and could throw my ideas into the waste paper bin.
                Please continue this discussion.
               
              I go off on a five week holiday this weekend so my contributions will be nill over that period.  I will pick up the thread when I get back.
               
              Cyril
               
            • Cyril SMITH
              ... From: Jürgen v Ooijen To: MEG_builders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and ordering of
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 25, 2002
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                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 9:48 AM
                Subject: Re: [MEG_builders] spin resonance and ordering of prececession phase

                Cyril,
                snip... 
                Time as you describe it is just a percteption of us human beings. This perception cannot be reversed unless the processes in our own body are running backward in  (wich is possible under your definition off time reversal). I believe that Bearden just like you means with "time reversal" (or Negentropy) that things are running backwards in our perception. So I believe that you and Bearden use the same definition. Having said this we are still left with him "measuring" those "time reversal"effects in the MEG. Which brings me back to my earlier questions What does this mean for exitation into oscilation using lower frequencies than spin or prececion frequencies?
                Bearden and I don't use the same definition.  I don't believe in time reversal, so I can't answer your question.
                If we want to take Bearden and the MEG serious we can not ignore these "facts".
                We have to define and explain them.
                Not believing in them might be the true but it's just not an option in this group when we want to copy what Bearden presents to us.
                 
                I have been an electronics engineer and physicist since leaving school in 1950.  I spent my whole working career in electromagnetics.  I am still learning things about magnetic circuits, not Beardenese but simple things which have been overlooked by our forefathers.
                 
                It would be great if you wrote an article on all those effects, describing and maybe explaining them in clear terms even understandable for Mechanical engineers.
                You would at least make me very happy if not the entire MEG-group.
                I have a paper half written on how to analyse circuits in the magnetic domain.  It is a bit heavy going if you are not into solving differential equations.  I intend to rewrite it so that the heavy stuff is in appendices making the main text readable even for mechanical engineers :-)
                   I think the secret to the MEG is:-
                (a) Use two identical resonant LCR circuits (that is the two secondary windings and the two core halves).  They must be identical, including their load resistors.
                (b) Arrange that the the AC flux change from peak positive to peak negative flows partially outside the core (connecting one drive coil to an AC short circuit at the correct time in the AC cycle will do this) and through a magnet (this requires the drive coil to have the right geometry, the diverted AC flux has a long path around the outside of the shorted coil).
                (c) The atomic dipoles in the magnet are forced (by the flux change) to give up energy during this half cycle and some of this energy goes into the load R's.
                (d) Remove the short from the drive coil, the diverted AC flux now jumps back into the core.  This happens quickly.  The identical fluxes in the two core halves don't change, so there is no induced voltage to couple to the secondary tuned circuits.  The sudden flux change through the magnet is opposite to the previous change, so the atomic dipoles regain some energy, but because there is no coupling to the resonant circuits they can't regain energy from there, Nature supplies the resetting energy.
                (e) The resonant circuits will continue with their oscillation, on the next half cycle the flux goes from peak negative to peak positive.  Arrange that the this opposite polarity AC flux change flows partially outside the core and through the magnet in a direction that the magnet again gives up energy to the load (connecting the other drive coil to an AC short circuit will do this).
                (f) Remove the short from the drive coil as in (d).
                That is now a complete cycle.
                Using transistors as shorting switches requires them to draw current, so you need a DC supply, then your circuit looks very much like a push-pull square-wave driver.  This low power drive gets the resonant circuits going, but it is the alternate switching of the magnet into the flux paths which supplies the large pumping power from the magnet.
                 
                Sounds good. But maybe I didn't quite understand it in full. Would you measure "Beardenese time reversal effects" in the MEG during this cycle? and if so, where?
                 
                No you wouldn't, I don't believe in time reversal as you perceive it.
                 
                Regards
                Cyril 
                 
              • Jürgen v Ooijen
                Cyril Cyril, snip... Time as you describe it is just a percteption of us human beings. This perception cannot be reversed unless the processes in our own body
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 26, 2002
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                  Cyril
                   
                  Cyril,
                  snip... 
                  Time as you describe it is just a percteption of us human beings. This perception cannot be reversed unless the processes in our own body are running backward in  (wich is possible under your definition off time reversal). I believe that Bearden just like you means with "time reversal" (or Negentropy) that things are running backwards in our perception. So I believe that you and Bearden use the same definition. Having said this we are still left with him "measuring" those "time reversal"effects in the MEG. Which brings me back to my earlier questions What does this mean for exitation into oscilation using lower frequencies than spin or prececion frequencies?
                  Bearden and I don't use the same definition.  I don't believe in time reversal, so I can't answer your question.
                   
                  In that case it would help my understanding greatly if you want to eleborate on next remark which you made earlier: "Making things seem to run backwards is magical when you don't understand what is going on, but is really quite straight forward".
                   
                  Regards
                  Jürgen
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