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regarding post-mortem emails

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  • Marta Layton
    Hey guys, There has been quite a lot of activity here. I hope no one is feeling completely snowed under, or even just a little overwhelmed like I do at the
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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      Hey guys,

      There has been quite a lot of activity here. I hope no one is feeling
      completely snowed under, or even just a little overwhelmed like I do at
      the moment. I'm going to try to answer as many as I can, of course.
      There may be a few I don't answer because I don't see how I could add
      to what I've already said in another email, and if that email happens
      to be yours, please don't take it as me not having read your email. I
      have read all the posts that have been made as of 1:30 Eastern time,
      and I will read new posts as they come in.

      I also wanted to thank everyone for their well-thought out opinions.
      You've already helped me realise that one "pet idea" of mine (#6) just
      wouldn't work practically. And me reconsidering ideas isn't a bad
      thing. I'm alwyas ready to be convinced that my approach isn't the best
      one.

      But, my point. In the last few emails I've found myswelf getting a bit
      snippy. Either I haven't replied in as much detail as I would have
      liked, or I've dismissed the arguments too easily, or I had to fight
      just a little too hard to keep the tone of my email calm. I also tend
      to go with my own gut feeling rather than thinking how Ainae might want
      things done, or asking her. So far I think I'm representing her wishes
      for the awards, but the point is I just haven't been thinking that way.

      So I'm going to take a few hours away from my computer and do some of
      the RL stuff I need to get done anyway. Contrary to appearances, I do
      have actual offline pressures too! I will do my best too answer more
      emails tonight in a level-headed manner. If I do get a bit flustered
      please bear with me. It's almost certainly not directed at you
      personally.

      Thanks in advance for all of your patience.

      Cheers,
      Marta
    • Kathy
      Hi Marta, You were getting snippy and flustered?? If so, then even in that state you are nicer than I am at my best! ;) Yes, go away and forget about us for a
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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        Hi Marta,

        You were getting snippy and flustered?? If so, then even in that
        state you are nicer than I am at my best! ;)

        Yes, go away and forget about us for a while...but when you get back,
        I have two questions for you:

        Someone (and I apologize that I've forgotten who) said that they
        received a flame review. Is that allowed?

        You mentioned Ainae, and I've been wondering about her too.
        Specifically, I know that she's been involved in this type of awards
        in other fandoms, and I just wonder how they handle problems like too
        many stories there? Since they've had more experience, seems like it
        would be useful to hear about what's worked and what hasn't...

        Kathy (Inkling)

        --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey guys,
        >
        > There has been quite a lot of activity here. I hope no one is
        feeling
        > completely snowed under, or even just a little overwhelmed like I
        do at
        > the moment. I'm going to try to answer as many as I can, of course.
        > There may be a few I don't answer because I don't see how I could
        add
        > to what I've already said in another email, and if that email
        happens
        > to be yours, please don't take it as me not having read your email.
        I
        > have read all the posts that have been made as of 1:30 Eastern
        time,
        > and I will read new posts as they come in.
        >
        > I also wanted to thank everyone for their well-thought out
        opinions.
        > You've already helped me realise that one "pet idea" of mine (#6)
        just
        > wouldn't work practically. And me reconsidering ideas isn't a bad
        > thing. I'm alwyas ready to be convinced that my approach isn't the
        best
        > one.
        >
        > But, my point. In the last few emails I've found myswelf getting a
        bit
        > snippy. Either I haven't replied in as much detail as I would have
        > liked, or I've dismissed the arguments too easily, or I had to
        fight
        > just a little too hard to keep the tone of my email calm. I also
        tend
        > to go with my own gut feeling rather than thinking how Ainae might
        want
        > things done, or asking her. So far I think I'm representing her
        wishes
        > for the awards, but the point is I just haven't been thinking that
        way.
        >
        > So I'm going to take a few hours away from my computer and do some
        of
        > the RL stuff I need to get done anyway. Contrary to appearances, I
        do
        > have actual offline pressures too! I will do my best too answer
        more
        > emails tonight in a level-headed manner. If I do get a bit
        flustered
        > please bear with me. It's almost certainly not directed at you
        > personally.
        >
        > Thanks in advance for all of your patience.
        >
        > Cheers,
        > Marta
        >
      • dwimmer_laik
        ... I must ve missed the e-mail that said the author had been flamed, but if that actually happened (and I don t remember anything flamey showing up, and I
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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          --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Marta,
          >
          > You were getting snippy and flustered?? If so, then even in that
          > state you are nicer than I am at my best! ;)
          >
          > Yes, go away and forget about us for a while...but when you get back,
          > I have two questions for you:
          >
          > Someone (and I apologize that I've forgotten who) said that they
          > received a flame review. Is that allowed?

          I must've missed the e-mail that said the author had been flamed, but
          if that actually happened (and I don't remember anything flamey
          showing up, and I read an embarrasing number of reviews), let's get
          proof positive--direct us to the review in question, since it's
          already public. I just don't want to go into a hypothetical discussion
          on this topic. The scoring system is set up so as to heavily
          discourage comments on pieces you personally don't think merit
          comment, or that you think only merit negative comments or detailed
          constructive criticism. I'm not sure what else one could do
          officially--I'm assuming if it's evident that negative comments are
          counterproductive, it's obvious that flaming is just right out.


          > You mentioned Ainae, and I've been wondering about her too.
          > Specifically, I know that she's been involved in this type of awards
          > in other fandoms, and I just wonder how they handle problems like too
          > many stories there?

          I can answer a little about that, since Ainae's probably at work
          still. The MEFAs are modelled on awards run at a Star Trek group she's
          been a part of for many years. Because their site is the main clearing
          house for new fics, they have a built-in pool: anything posted during
          the past year is eligible for the awards. So effectively, every piece
          you write and post is a self-nomination, be it ever so humble.

          We don't have a central fic clearing house that makes our pool for us,
          so the model in that sense doesn't fit ours very neatly. While we
          could limit the pool to fics published within a particular year, à la
          Mithrils and the Star Trek awards, I think the idea of a stories per
          nominator limit PLUS the open field of fics published at any time will
          actually help reduce nominations in a given year: so long as
          nominators know that they could nominate a fic in the next year,
          there's less pressure to nominate as many fics as possible for fear
          that they'll never get a chance to compete if you don't nominate it
          immediately.

          Combine that with, as Isabeau and others have noted, the natural fall
          off in fic production, now that the movie wave has subsided somewhat,
          and I think, assuming these awards continue for several years, that
          this year will look like an anomaly.

          Anyhow, Ainae can correct anything I've misstated when she gets a
          chance to look at her e-mail, but that's how she's explained things to
          me when we've talked about the inspiration for this kind of awards
          format.

          Dwim
        • Kathy
          ... Wish I could remember who it was--Naresha, was it you?--but I believe she said she received a one-point flame review.
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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            > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik"
            > <dwimmer_laik@y...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
            > >
            > > <snip>
            > > Someone (and I apologize that I've forgotten who) said that they
            > > received a flame review. Is that allowed?
            >
            > I must've missed the e-mail that said the author had been flamed,
            > but
            > if that actually happened (and I don't remember anything flamey
            > showing up, and I read an embarrasing number of reviews), let's get
            > proof positive--direct us to the review in question, since it's
            > already public. I just don't want to go into a hypothetical
            > discussion
            > on this topic. The scoring system is set up so as to heavily
            > discourage comments on pieces you personally don't think merit
            > comment, or that you think only merit negative comments or detailed
            > constructive criticism. I'm not sure what else one could do
            > officially--I'm assuming if it's evident that negative comments are
            > counterproductive, it's obvious that flaming is just right out.
            >

            Wish I could remember who it was--Naresha, was it you?--but I believe
            she said she received a one-point flame review.
          • sulriel
            ... feeling completely snowed under, or even just a little overwhelmed like I do at ... personally. Thanks in advance for all of your patience. ...
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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              --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey guys,
              >
              > There has been quite a lot of activity here. I hope no one is
              feeling > completely snowed under, or even just a little overwhelmed
              like I do
              at > >>>>

              > emails tonight in a level-headed manner. If I do get a bit flustered
              > please bear with me. It's almost certainly not directed at you
              personally.> > Thanks in advance for all of your patience.
              > > Cheers,> Marta>

              {hugs}

              after all we've been through, don't get burned out on the post
              mortem!!

              I don't think every mail has to be answered, a lot of them are
              saying 'agree' or 'disagree', or seem to be presenting thoughts to the
              group in general. A lot of good points have been raised.

              Is this topic something that will be voted on or will an excutive
              decision be made?
            • sulriel
              ... wrote: Someone (and I apologize that I ve forgotten who) said that they received a flame review. Is that allowed? ...
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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                --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...> wrote:
                >> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "dwimmer_laik"
                > > <dwimmer_laik@y...> wrote:
                > >> > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" <inkling-tcbs@s...>
                wrote:> > >> > > <snip>> > > Someone (and I apologize that I've
                forgotten who) said that they > > > received a flame review. Is that
                allowed?> >

                > > Wish I could remember who it was--Naresha, was it you?--but I
                believe > she said she received a one-point flame review.>


                I read (at least skimmed) *all* the reviews as they were finalized up
                until the date that the tentative reviews became final. - then ...
                Thundera and Elliska ((?)(*blush ... my brain has thankfully blocked
                some of those busier weeks)) read all the ones that were posted at
                the close of voting season.

                If I'm remembering correctly - there was *one* review that looked
                like it had been placed as a "note to myself" by the reader as a
                reminder that they'd read that fic and weren't going to leave a
                review for points. There were quite a few draft reviews along those
                lines, my guess is that one was meant to be draft and was accidently
                set the tentative. I changed it back to draft as soon as I was told
                about it. - I don't remember whose it was, but I thought the author
                or other readers wouldn't have seen it.

                As such - if I remembering correctly - there is no rule about leaving
                critical reviews, except the hopefully self-policing question/thought
                that leaving a flame or critical review still ups the points for that
                fiction.

                If there is a flame review still on file, if someone will point it
                out, I *may* still be able to delete it ... I don't know. I don't
                think we could if it would change the points ... Anthony will have
                to answer that one -

                Sulriel
              • Marta Layton
                ... Oh, good! I was hoping my shortness wasn t evident to others, but I was afraid it might be. If you answer enough emails, one after the other, eventually
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  On 2 Nov 2005, at 14:47, Kathy wrote:

                  > Hi Marta,
                  >
                  > You were getting snippy and flustered?? If so, then even in that
                  > state you are nicer than I am at my best! ;)
                  >

                  Oh, good! I was hoping my shortness wasn't evident to others, but I was
                  afraid it might be. If you answer enough emails, one after the other,
                  eventually you feel worn a bit thin.

                  > Yes, go away and forget about us for a while... but when you get back,
                  > I have two questions for you:
                  >
                  > Someone (and I apologize that I've forgotten who) said that they
                  > received a flame review.  Is that allowed?
                  >

                  Technically there aren't any restrictions on the contents of review,
                  except for restrictions on quotes and stuff. But it makes no sense to
                  post negative comments, at least if that's the only thing you say. I
                  included some constructive criticism in a few of my reviews, but that
                  was always between praises. flame would give points to a story the
                  reviewer apparently couldn't find anything to compliment.

                  As for how to prevent it, I don't know how we'd do that except for
                  having someone preview each review before it's released to the general
                  public. But that would require a lot of volunteers, and I'm not sure
                  how we'd be objective about that. Once it's visible to everyone we
                  could delete it, but I guess that would only penalise the author
                  further.

                  Do you have any suggestions?

                  > You mentioned Ainae, and I've been wondering about her too.
                  > Specifically, I know that she's been involved in this type of awards
                  > in other fandoms, and I just wonder how they handle problems like too
                  > many stories there?  Since they've had more experience, seems like it
                  > would be useful to hear about what's worked and what hasn't...
                  >

                  I'll let Ainae answer this in more depth, but I think her experience is
                  in Star Trek fanfic. There the nomination base is all the stories
                  posted to a certain archive, so I don't think there's really that
                  concern for them. But I'm not involved with those awards. I think Dwim
                  gave a better run-down, and hopefully Ainae will weigh in herself.

                  Marta
                • Marta Layton
                  ... I m feeling much better, now. The occasional break does wonders, really. ... Yes, I think I m feeling better about judging what needs to be answered, and
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 2, 2005
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                    On 2 Nov 2005, at 19:06, sulriel wrote:

                    > --- In MEFAwards@yahoogroups.com, Marta Layton <melayton@g...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hey guys,
                    > >
                    > > There has been quite a lot of activity here. I hope no one is
                    > feeling > completely snowed under, or even just a little overwhelmed
                    > like I do
                    > at > >>>>
                    >
                    > > emails tonight in a level-headed manner. If I do get a bit flustered
                    > > please bear with me. It's almost certainly not directed at you
                    > personally.> > Thanks in advance for all of your patience.
                    > > > Cheers,> Marta>
                    >
                    > {hugs}
                    >
                    > after all we've been through, don't get burned out on the post
                    > mortem!! 
                    >

                    I'm feeling much better, now. The occasional break does wonders, really.

                    > I don't think every mail has to be answered, a lot of them are
                    > saying 'agree' or 'disagree', or seem to be presenting thoughts to the
                    > group in general.

                    Yes, I think I'm feeling better about judging what needs to be
                    answered, and what I can wait on.

                    > A lot of good points have been raised.  
                    >
                    > Is this topic something that will be voted on or will an excutive
                    > decision be made? 
                    >

                    I think on this one most people are in favor of a cap per nominator,
                    and I certainly agree with that. Similarly, most people seem to be
                    against an overall limit on the number of nominations, so I don't mind
                    making an executive decision here.

                    I will set up a poll to discuss whether we should have one simple limit
                    or a limit for stories and a separate for drabbles/poems. I think tht's
                    something where there's enough difference of opinions that a poll makes
                    sense.

                    Marta
                  • Naresha
                    ... computer and do some of the RL stuff I need to get done anyway. Contrary to appearances, I do ... OMG! Marta you have a life outside the computer?! :-P
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 4, 2005
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                      > So I'm going to take a few hours away from my >
                      computer and do some of the RL stuff I need to >
                      get done anyway. Contrary to appearances, I do
                      > have actual offline pressures too!


                      OMG! Marta you have a life outside the
                      computer?! :-P I know how you feel though - I'm
                      still 5-600 emails behind because of RL! But
                      this topic certainly has garnered a lot of good
                      solid conversation about it!

                      Resha

                      ~To forgive calls upon our love, to forget calls upon our strength~

                      AIM: Naresha21 MSN: candyman_gypsy@... Yahoo: fruitcake5m1
                      Personal LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/nareshaninya/
                      Writing LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/writingsofresha/

                      My Website! Slash Me Happy
                      http://www.websamba.com/SlashMeHappy

                      http://quiz.ravenblack.net/blood.pl?biter=Resha



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                    • Marta Layton
                      Hi Resha, ... *snerk* Hard to believe, isn t it? ... Oh yes! I ve thoroughly enjoyed it. Marta ***** Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 6, 2005
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                        Hi Resha,

                        On 4 Nov 2005, at 10:03, Naresha wrote:

                        > > So I'm going to take a few hours away from my >
                        > computer and do some of the RL stuff I need to >
                        > get done anyway. Contrary to appearances, I do
                        > > have actual offline pressures too!
                        >
                        >
                        > OMG!  Marta you have a life outside the
                        > computer?!  :-P 

                        *snerk* Hard to believe, isn't it?

                        > I know how you feel though - I'm
                        > still 5-600 emails behind because of RL!  But
                        > this topic certainly has garnered a lot of good
                        > solid conversation about it!
                        >

                        Oh yes! I've thoroughly enjoyed it.

                        Marta


                        *****
                        "Our greatest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our greatest fear is
                        that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness
                        that most frightens us. [...] As we let our own light shine, we
                        unconsciously give other people permission to do the same."

                        (Nelson Mandela)
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