Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Still confused on Salvation

Expand Messages
  • Dave @¿@¬
    As I understand it at this time. Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      As I understand it at this time.

      Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.

      That sound about right?

      In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
      "Am I going to heaven or not?"

      Dave

      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dave,
      >
      > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
      >
      > Dave W.
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Howdy Dave!
      > >
      > > Remember... I'm new at this
      > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
      > >
      > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
      > > "my salvation"
      > >
      > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
      > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
      > >
      > > Dave
      > >
      > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
      > > >
      > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
      > > >
      > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
      > > >
      > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
      > > >
      > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
      > > >
      > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
      > > >
      > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
      > > >
      > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
      > > >
      > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
      > > >
      > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • Dave @¿@¬
      This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity. In the west: Religion is a court of law. The crime: SIN. I am the defendant. Christ
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.

        In the west:
        Religion is a court of law.
        The crime: SIN.
        I am the defendant.
        Christ is my attorney.

        Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.

        Salvation = "Not guilty!"
        Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.

        In the east:
        Religion is a hospital.
        The illness: SIN
        I am the patient.
        Christ is my physician.

        Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
        Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
        HOWEVER
        Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.

        Dave N.

        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
        >
        > As I understand it at this time.
        >
        > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
        >
        > That sound about right?
        >
        > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
        > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
        >
        > Dave
        >
        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dave,
        > >
        > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
        > >
        > > Dave W.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Howdy Dave!
        > > >
        > > > Remember... I'm new at this
        > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
        > > >
        > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
        > > > "my salvation"
        > > >
        > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
        > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
        > > >
        > > > Dave
        > > >
        > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
        > > > >
        > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
        > > > >
        > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
        > > > >
        > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
        > > > >
        > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
        > > > >
        > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
        > > > >
        > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
        > > > >
        > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
        > > > >
        > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
        > > > >
        > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • Dave W.
        Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a preoccupation with getting into
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a "preoccupation" with getting into heaven, perhaps. And the East does not?

          Dave


          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.
          >
          > In the west:
          > Religion is a court of law.
          > The crime: SIN.
          > I am the defendant.
          > Christ is my attorney.
          >
          > Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.
          >
          > Salvation = "Not guilty!"
          > Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.
          >
          > In the east:
          > Religion is a hospital.
          > The illness: SIN
          > I am the patient.
          > Christ is my physician.
          >
          > Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
          > Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
          > HOWEVER
          > Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.
          >
          > Dave N.
          >
          > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
          > >
          > > As I understand it at this time.
          > >
          > > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
          > >
          > > That sound about right?
          > >
          > > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
          > > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
          > >
          > > Dave
          > >
          > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dave,
          > > >
          > > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
          > > >
          > > > Dave W.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Howdy Dave!
          > > > >
          > > > > Remember... I'm new at this
          > > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
          > > > >
          > > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
          > > > > "my salvation"
          > > > >
          > > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
          > > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
          > > > >
          > > > > Dave
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
          > > > > >
          > > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Dave @¿@¬
          Howdy Dave! Since I am new to Orthodoxy somebody else should probably answer that. As I see it as a newcomer: Sticking with the illustration... In the west,
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Howdy Dave!

            Since I am new to Orthodoxy somebody else should probably answer that.

            As I see it as a newcomer:

            Sticking with the illustration...

            In the west, people are anxious about their upcomming court appearance.

            In the east, people are anxious about "doing their therapy" in the quest to eventually "be ye perfect."

            (Please correct me if I am wrong!)

            Dave N.

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a "preoccupation" with getting into heaven, perhaps. And the East does not?
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
            > >
            > > This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.
            > >
            > > In the west:
            > > Religion is a court of law.
            > > The crime: SIN.
            > > I am the defendant.
            > > Christ is my attorney.
            > >
            > > Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.
            > >
            > > Salvation = "Not guilty!"
            > > Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.
            > >
            > > In the east:
            > > Religion is a hospital.
            > > The illness: SIN
            > > I am the patient.
            > > Christ is my physician.
            > >
            > > Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
            > > Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
            > > HOWEVER
            > > Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.
            > >
            > > Dave N.
            > >
            > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > As I understand it at this time.
            > > >
            > > > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
            > > >
            > > > That sound about right?
            > > >
            > > > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
            > > > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
            > > >
            > > > Dave
            > > >
            > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Dave,
            > > > >
            > > > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
            > > > >
            > > > > Dave W.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Howdy Dave!
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Remember... I'm new at this
            > > > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
            > > > > >
            > > > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
            > > > > > "my salvation"
            > > > > >
            > > > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
            > > > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Dave
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Dave W.
            Dave N., I m not trying to put you on the spot. It s just you re the one who s given me the clearest reply yet, and I thank you for that. If therapy is the
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              Dave N.,

              I'm not trying to put you on the spot. It's just you're the one who's given me the clearest reply yet, and I thank you for that.

              If "therapy" is the focus in the East, then is it just a foregone conclusion that you will go to heaven, and that the process of theosis is our "job" while here on earth, which will take on a clearer and deeper sense, once in heaven?

              Dave W.


              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
              >
              > Howdy Dave!
              >
              > Since I am new to Orthodoxy somebody else should probably answer that.
              >
              > As I see it as a newcomer:
              >
              > Sticking with the illustration...
              >
              > In the west, people are anxious about their upcomming court appearance.
              >
              > In the east, people are anxious about "doing their therapy" in the quest to eventually "be ye perfect."
              >
              > (Please correct me if I am wrong!)
              >
              > Dave N.
              >
              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a "preoccupation" with getting into heaven, perhaps. And the East does not?
              > >
              > > Dave
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.
              > > >
              > > > In the west:
              > > > Religion is a court of law.
              > > > The crime: SIN.
              > > > I am the defendant.
              > > > Christ is my attorney.
              > > >
              > > > Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.
              > > >
              > > > Salvation = "Not guilty!"
              > > > Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.
              > > >
              > > > In the east:
              > > > Religion is a hospital.
              > > > The illness: SIN
              > > > I am the patient.
              > > > Christ is my physician.
              > > >
              > > > Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
              > > > Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
              > > > HOWEVER
              > > > Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.
              > > >
              > > > Dave N.
              > > >
              > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > As I understand it at this time.
              > > > >
              > > > > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
              > > > >
              > > > > That sound about right?
              > > > >
              > > > > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
              > > > > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
              > > > >
              > > > > Dave
              > > > >
              > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Dave,
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Dave W.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Howdy Dave!
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Remember... I'm new at this
              > > > > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
              > > > > > > "my salvation"
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
              > > > > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Dave
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
              > > > > > > >
              > > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Dave @¿@¬
              As long as you stick with your therapy -- yes. If you don t, you will have a relapse and become fatally ill again. Dave
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                As long as you stick with your therapy -- yes.
                If you don't, you will have a relapse and become fatally ill again.

                Dave

                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dave N.,
                >
                > I'm not trying to put you on the spot. It's just you're the one who's given me the clearest reply yet, and I thank you for that.
                >
                > If "therapy" is the focus in the East, then is it just a foregone conclusion that you will go to heaven, and that the process of theosis is our "job" while here on earth, which will take on a clearer and deeper sense, once in heaven?
                >
                > Dave W.
                >
                >
                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Howdy Dave!
                > >
                > > Since I am new to Orthodoxy somebody else should probably answer that.
                > >
                > > As I see it as a newcomer:
                > >
                > > Sticking with the illustration...
                > >
                > > In the west, people are anxious about their upcomming court appearance.
                > >
                > > In the east, people are anxious about "doing their therapy" in the quest to eventually "be ye perfect."
                > >
                > > (Please correct me if I am wrong!)
                > >
                > > Dave N.
                > >
                > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a "preoccupation" with getting into heaven, perhaps. And the East does not?
                > > >
                > > > Dave
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.
                > > > >
                > > > > In the west:
                > > > > Religion is a court of law.
                > > > > The crime: SIN.
                > > > > I am the defendant.
                > > > > Christ is my attorney.
                > > > >
                > > > > Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.
                > > > >
                > > > > Salvation = "Not guilty!"
                > > > > Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.
                > > > >
                > > > > In the east:
                > > > > Religion is a hospital.
                > > > > The illness: SIN
                > > > > I am the patient.
                > > > > Christ is my physician.
                > > > >
                > > > > Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
                > > > > Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
                > > > > HOWEVER
                > > > > Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.
                > > > >
                > > > > Dave N.
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > As I understand it at this time.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > That sound about right?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
                > > > > > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Dave
                > > > > >
                > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Dave,
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Dave W.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Howdy Dave!
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Remember... I'm new at this
                > > > > > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
                > > > > > > > "my salvation"
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
                > > > > > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > Dave
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
                > > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Dave @¿@¬
                I just LOVE the hospital illustration. You can use it for just about everything!
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  I just LOVE the hospital illustration.
                  You can use it for just about everything!

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > As long as you stick with your therapy -- yes.
                  > If you don't, you will have a relapse and become fatally ill again.
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dave N.,
                  > >
                  > > I'm not trying to put you on the spot. It's just you're the one who's given me the clearest reply yet, and I thank you for that.
                  > >
                  > > If "therapy" is the focus in the East, then is it just a foregone conclusion that you will go to heaven, and that the process of theosis is our "job" while here on earth, which will take on a clearer and deeper sense, once in heaven?
                  > >
                  > > Dave W.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Howdy Dave!
                  > > >
                  > > > Since I am new to Orthodoxy somebody else should probably answer that.
                  > > >
                  > > > As I see it as a newcomer:
                  > > >
                  > > > Sticking with the illustration...
                  > > >
                  > > > In the west, people are anxious about their upcomming court appearance.
                  > > >
                  > > > In the east, people are anxious about "doing their therapy" in the quest to eventually "be ye perfect."
                  > > >
                  > > > (Please correct me if I am wrong!)
                  > > >
                  > > > Dave N.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a "preoccupation" with getting into heaven, perhaps. And the East does not?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Dave
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In the west:
                  > > > > > Religion is a court of law.
                  > > > > > The crime: SIN.
                  > > > > > I am the defendant.
                  > > > > > Christ is my attorney.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Salvation = "Not guilty!"
                  > > > > > Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > In the east:
                  > > > > > Religion is a hospital.
                  > > > > > The illness: SIN
                  > > > > > I am the patient.
                  > > > > > Christ is my physician.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
                  > > > > > Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
                  > > > > > HOWEVER
                  > > > > > Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Dave N.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > As I understand it at this time.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > That sound about right?
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
                  > > > > > > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Dave
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Dave,
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > Dave W.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Howdy Dave!
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Remember... I'm new at this
                  > > > > > > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
                  > > > > > > > > "my salvation"
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
                  > > > > > > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > Dave
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
                  > > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Dave W.
                  If you relapse and become fatally ill again, how to get get back into therapy? Through your confessions to a priest? Dave
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If you relapse and become fatally ill again, how to get get back into therapy? Through your confessions to a priest?

                    Dave

                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > As long as you stick with your therapy -- yes.
                    > If you don't, you will have a relapse and become fatally ill again.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dave N.,
                    > >
                    > > I'm not trying to put you on the spot. It's just you're the one who's given me the clearest reply yet, and I thank you for that.
                    > >
                    > > If "therapy" is the focus in the East, then is it just a foregone conclusion that you will go to heaven, and that the process of theosis is our "job" while here on earth, which will take on a clearer and deeper sense, once in heaven?
                    > >
                    > > Dave W.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Howdy Dave!
                    > > >
                    > > > Since I am new to Orthodoxy somebody else should probably answer that.
                    > > >
                    > > > As I see it as a newcomer:
                    > > >
                    > > > Sticking with the illustration...
                    > > >
                    > > > In the west, people are anxious about their upcomming court appearance.
                    > > >
                    > > > In the east, people are anxious about "doing their therapy" in the quest to eventually "be ye perfect."
                    > > >
                    > > > (Please correct me if I am wrong!)
                    > > >
                    > > > Dave N.
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you Dave. The Perry Mason vs. the Hospital explanation helps a lot. It does seem to me that western Christianity has a "preoccupation" with getting into heaven, perhaps. And the East does not?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Dave
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This is illustrated by the Eastern and western perceptions of Christianity.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In the west:
                    > > > > > Religion is a court of law.
                    > > > > > The crime: SIN.
                    > > > > > I am the defendant.
                    > > > > > Christ is my attorney.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Christ says, this defendant can not be convicted because I have already been convicted of the crime and served the sentence.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Salvation = "Not guilty!"
                    > > > > > Salvation is instantaniously attained as soon as the gavel comes down.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > In the east:
                    > > > > > Religion is a hospital.
                    > > > > > The illness: SIN
                    > > > > > I am the patient.
                    > > > > > Christ is my physician.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Salvation is my healing process. It is not instantanious.
                    > > > > > Once my illness is no longer fatal "I am saved."
                    > > > > > HOWEVER
                    > > > > > Salvation is the healing process that takes me on the course to becoming healthy.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Dave N.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > As I understand it at this time.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Salvation is the PROCESS of perfection of the soul and approaching Unity with God which is started in life and continues after death.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > That sound about right?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > In Lutheranism, salvation is an instantanious state:
                    > > > > > > "Am I going to heaven or not?"
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Dave
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Dave,
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Pardon me being so dense. I am not sure I'm understanding what you mean by that assurance? What is that assurance for an Orthodox? I think I'm missing the forest, for the trees.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > Dave W.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Howdy Dave!
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Remember... I'm new at this
                    > > > > > > > > (hint -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong!)
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > What I, as a Lutheran, would call:
                    > > > > > > > > "my salvation"
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > is what I, as an Orthodox Christian, would call:
                    > > > > > > > > "the ASSURANCE of my salvation."
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > Dave
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Dave W." <dkwiech@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I know this subject has been discussed a lot on here, but I'm not quite finding the reassurance my heart desires.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I've been reading up on Orthodox teachings about Salvation and the many forms/perspectives it takes on. In the short booklet "Am I Saved? Scriptural Thoughts on Salvation", by Fr. Theodore Bobosh, he states:
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > "'But if I still have to work out my salvation, does that mean that I won't know if I am saved until the Judgement Day?' Yes, again."
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Now, I understand the teaching of salvation as something past, present, and future, and that "faith without works is dead", but there's no apparent guarantee that we're saved, until the Last Day. If that is the case, what is the draw for non-Christians to become Christians, if they still have to work it out as a process, and never be sure? The Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. also have a "process" they need to follow in order to merely hope for salvation.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > What am I missing that was so key to the early Christians willing to be persecuted, tortured, eaten by lions, etc. and still remain joyful, if they had no ultimate guarantee.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I see that there are numerous quotes from Scriptures to defend either side of the argument, so I don't want to open a can of worms here.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Ironically, I also see a potential shortcoming with the common evangelical thinking of salvation as a done-deal in that we just accept it as a gift and basta, it's done. Lutherans also acknowledge that faith must show itself in holy living and "works" or outward expression.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > Thing is, Lutherans still fall back on the "well, I'm saved anyway, so I don't need to worry about it in the end" statement. This however begs the question as to the need for repentance, daily forgiveness, etc., if we're ultimately "saved anyway".
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > But Lutherans also acknowledge that ultimately God has the final say and it's not our choice to "announce" that we're saved. And that feeds us back into what I understand to be the Orthodox teaching of hope for final salvation: God is the final determiner, not us.
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > > > I know I'm making some assumptions here and I know I'm generalizing, but the gist is, what is the guarantee, if any, and what drove the early Christians, and what's the selling point to non-Christians?
                    > > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Anastasia Theodoridis
                    You get back into therapy by repentance, confession, regular prayer, spiritual reading, especially Holy Scripture, Holy Communion, fasting, alms...in short,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 7, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      You get back into therapy by repentance, confession, regular prayer, spiritual reading, especially Holy Scripture, Holy Communion, fasting, alms...in short, simply by resuming the living of the Christian life. Instead of the ego-centered, hedonistic life.

                      Anastasia
                      e-mail: anastasiatheo01@...
                      blog: http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.