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About Orthodoxy

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  • Christopher Orr
    Since we have some newer members and more volume lately, I thought I would remind everyone to take a look at the description of this list again. It can be
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 3 9:56 AM
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      Since we have some newer members and more volume lately, I thought I would
      remind everyone to take a look at the description of this list again. It
      can be found here:

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LutheransLookingEast/

      All that boils down to a simple rule: this list is about Orthodoxy, not
      Lutheranism. I am not interested in discussing Lutheranism. I converted
      for a reason. It is only relevant insofar as it is a perspective from which
      a question is asked about Orthodoxy. Defining what Lutheranism 'really'
      teaches is a question for a Lutheran. People calling themselves Lutherans
      teach and believe all sorts of different things on different topics and none
      of it is relevant except insofar as it is the starting point for a question
      about Orthodoxy.

      For instance, I did a Wordle cloud (see
      here<http://www.wordle.net/gallery/wrdl/607383/Solum_Corpus_Christi_-_The_Authority_of_Scripture_in_the_Orthodox_Church>)
      about the paper I presented on "The Authority of Scripture in the Orthodox
      Church, for Lutherans". Lutheran, Lutheranism, Luther, etc. barely showed
      up. The biggest words were Orthodox, Scripture(s), Church, Christ, God,
      Fathers, Holy, Bible and Tradition. The paper was about Orthodoxy. This
      list is first and foremost about Orthodoxy. It isn't ours to judge (or even
      to define) those outside of the Orthodox Church.

      Christopher


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
      Alright, I m going to cease and desist. Lutherans who are looking East are going to ask comparative questions concerning Lutheran and Orthodox doctrine. To
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 3 10:04 AM
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        Alright, I'm going to cease and desist.

        Lutherans who are looking East are going to ask comparative questions concerning Lutheran and Orthodox doctrine. To answer these questions, you are going to have to talk about Lutheran doctrine ---- and you do, frequently. However, much of the time Lutheran doctrine is represented in this forum with a broad stroke and a lot of mal-informed stereotypical assumptions. Much easier to knock down that way.

        I've not intended to wage a war of defense for Lutheran doctrine, but simply to set the record straight(er) so that inquirers get a more accurate answer and fuller perspective on the issue of their inquiry.

        Done.
        Jon

        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

        "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
        the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

        "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
        the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
        everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
        call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

        Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

        The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
        14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

        Office 845.855.3169
        Home 845.855.2616
        E-Mail didache@...
        E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
        Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
        Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Christopher Orr
        No need to cease and desist. It s just that you have on your pastor hat, which is not wrong or bad, it s just that this list isn t about Lutheranism. Noting
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 3 10:34 AM
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          No need to cease and desist. It's just that you have on your pastor hat,
          which is not wrong or bad, it's just that this list isn't about
          Lutheranism.

          Noting that not some but not all Lutherans teach x, it is possible for you
          to then ask a question regarding something related. You could also simply
          note the diversity of opinions within Lutheranism so that it isn't assumed
          to be monolithic. Standing up for the fact that "Lutheranism teaches y" as
          if there is no difference of opinion or practice is getting into territory
          over what is the real Lutheranism. That's not proper ground for the
          Orthodox or this list.

          A positive example of a clarification was when you noted that some/many
          Lutherans teach that the saints pray for us (a surprise to some Lutherans),
          which led to me pulling out of my post all the patristic passages that dealt
          with their clear invocation of the saints, as distinct from merely
          witnessing to the saints intercession on our behalf. This was helpful in
          clarifying the Orthodox position vis a vis the differing Lutheran views on
          these related topics.

          An example of a question you could have asked was this:

          While it is perhaps OK to ask the saints to "pray for us" -- since they do
          > that anyway -- how is PETITIONING them for aid (other than their ongoing
          > prayers) not idolatrous?
          >

          That is a different thing than this:

          "What *may* be idolatrous is that we pray to them. Perhaps it is OK to ask
          > them to "pray for us" -- since they do that anyway. But, the concern is in
          > praying to saints PETITIONING them for aid (other than their ongoing
          > prayers)."
          >

          That is a statement of Lutheran belief and concern, not a question about
          Orthodoxy. It is this difference I am trying to maintain on this list.
          Critiquing or criticizing Lutheranism is something I do not care to do.

          Christopher



          On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <
          didache@...> wrote:

          > Alright, I'm going to cease and desist.
          >
          > Lutherans who are looking East are going to ask comparative questions
          > concerning Lutheran and Orthodox doctrine. To answer these questions, you
          > are going to have to talk about Lutheran doctrine ---- and you do,
          > frequently. However, much of the time Lutheran doctrine is represented in
          > this forum with a broad stroke and a lot of mal-informed stereotypical
          > assumptions. Much easier to knock down that way.
          >
          > I've not intended to wage a war of defense for Lutheran doctrine, but
          > simply to set the record straight(er) so that inquirers get a more accurate
          > answer and fuller perspective on the issue of their inquiry.
          >
          > Done.
          > Jon
          >
          > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
          >
          > "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
          > the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
          >
          > "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
          > the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
          > everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
          > call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
          >
          > Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
          >
          > The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
          > 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
          >
          > Office 845.855.3169
          > Home 845.855.2616
          > E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
          > E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
          > Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
          > Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dave @¿@¬
          As I see it, this board is a good resource for map reading ... Having all started from approximately the same location, I am looking for interpretitations on:
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 3 12:18 PM
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            As I see it, this board is a good resource for "map reading"...

            Having all started from approximately the same location, I am
            looking for interpretitations on:

            "How to get from hither to yon."

            If I thought that "yon" was not where I wanted to go, I wouldn't be
            here.

            Dave

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr
            <xcjorr@...> wrote:
            >
            > No need to cease and desist. It's just that you have on your
            pastor hat,
            > which is not wrong or bad, it's just that this list isn't about
            > Lutheranism.
            >
            > Noting that not some but not all Lutherans teach x, it is possible
            for you
            > to then ask a question regarding something related. You could
            also simply
            > note the diversity of opinions within Lutheranism so that it isn't
            assumed
            > to be monolithic. Standing up for the fact that "Lutheranism
            teaches y" as
            > if there is no difference of opinion or practice is getting into
            territory
            > over what is the real Lutheranism. That's not proper ground for
            the
            > Orthodox or this list.
            >
            > A positive example of a clarification was when you noted that
            some/many
            > Lutherans teach that the saints pray for us (a surprise to some
            Lutherans),
            > which led to me pulling out of my post all the patristic passages
            that dealt
            > with their clear invocation of the saints, as distinct from merely
            > witnessing to the saints intercession on our behalf. This was
            helpful in
            > clarifying the Orthodox position vis a vis the differing Lutheran
            views on
            > these related topics.
            >
            > An example of a question you could have asked was this:
            >
            > While it is perhaps OK to ask the saints to "pray for us" -- since
            they do
            > > that anyway -- how is PETITIONING them for aid (other than
            their ongoing
            > > prayers) not idolatrous?
            > >
            >
            > That is a different thing than this:
            >
            > "What *may* be idolatrous is that we pray to them. Perhaps it is
            OK to ask
            > > them to "pray for us" -- since they do that anyway. But, the
            concern is in
            > > praying to saints PETITIONING them for aid (other than their
            ongoing
            > > prayers)."
            > >
            >
            > That is a statement of Lutheran belief and concern, not a question
            about
            > Orthodoxy. It is this difference I am trying to maintain on this
            list.
            > Critiquing or criticizing Lutheranism is something I do not care
            to do.
            >
            > Christopher
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