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The Orthodox Gospel message

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  • Dave W.
    Perhaps an Orthodox participant could summarize in a few words what exactly is the understanding of the Gospel and the means of salvation, according to the OC.
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 3 8:58 AM
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      Perhaps an Orthodox participant could summarize in a few words what
      exactly is the understanding of the Gospel and the means of salvation,
      according to the OC. Yes, as Lutherans we believe that the debt has
      already been paid by Christ's death and resurrection, and death has
      been defeated, not by anything we have done or could do, and cannot be
      earned in any fashion through our "works".

      I do not get the feeling that the OC teaches otherwise, but it is
      sometimes hard for us to see this clearly, since we tend to use some of
      the same theological terms in different ways than the OC. I also think
      that Lutherans can be quick to judge others and may be misperceiving
      what is being said by non-Lutherans. I know these discussions have been
      ongoing on this forum, but can this be summarized in a clear concise
      manner, so there in less confusion?
    • Christopher Orr
      Concise was condemned at the Palamite Councils of the 14th Century. :) First, debt , paid and earn are not part of the question the Orthodox would even
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 3 9:03 AM
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        Concise was condemned at the Palamite Councils of the 14th Century. :)

        First, 'debt', 'paid' and 'earn' are not part of the question the Orthodox
        would even ask. Why ask that question? Lutheranism only makes sense when
        that particular type of question is asked.

        Christopher



        On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

        > Perhaps an Orthodox participant could summarize in a few words what
        > exactly is the understanding of the Gospel and the means of salvation,
        > according to the OC. Yes, as Lutherans we believe that the debt has
        > already been paid by Christ's death and resurrection, and death has
        > been defeated, not by anything we have done or could do, and cannot be
        > earned in any fashion through our "works".
        >
        > I do not get the feeling that the OC teaches otherwise, but it is
        > sometimes hard for us to see this clearly, since we tend to use some of
        > the same theological terms in different ways than the OC. I also think
        > that Lutherans can be quick to judge others and may be misperceiving
        > what is being said by non-Lutherans. I know these discussions have been
        > ongoing on this forum, but can this be summarized in a clear concise
        > manner, so there in less confusion?
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dave W.
        Unfortunately, that wasn t quite was I was hoping to hear. ... Century. :) ... Orthodox ... sense when ... what ... salvation, ... has ... has ... cannot be
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 3 9:17 AM
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          Unfortunately, that wasn't quite was I was hoping to hear.



          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Christopher Orr
          <xcjorr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Concise was condemned at the Palamite Councils of the 14th
          Century. :)
          >
          > First, 'debt', 'paid' and 'earn' are not part of the question the
          Orthodox
          > would even ask. Why ask that question? Lutheranism only makes
          sense when
          > that particular type of question is asked.
          >
          > Christopher
          >
          >
          >
          > On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 11:58 AM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Perhaps an Orthodox participant could summarize in a few words
          what
          > > exactly is the understanding of the Gospel and the means of
          salvation,
          > > according to the OC. Yes, as Lutherans we believe that the debt
          has
          > > already been paid by Christ's death and resurrection, and death
          has
          > > been defeated, not by anything we have done or could do, and
          cannot be
          > > earned in any fashion through our "works".
          > >
          > > I do not get the feeling that the OC teaches otherwise, but it is
          > > sometimes hard for us to see this clearly, since we tend to use
          some of
          > > the same theological terms in different ways than the OC. I also
          think
          > > that Lutherans can be quick to judge others and may be
          misperceiving
          > > what is being said by non-Lutherans. I know these discussions
          have been
          > > ongoing on this forum, but can this be summarized in a clear
          concise
          > > manner, so there in less confusion?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
          Christopher Orr wrote:
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 3 9:28 AM
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            Christopher Orr wrote:
            <<First, 'debt', 'paid' and 'earn' are not part of the question the Orthodox
            would even ask. Why ask that question? Lutheranism only makes sense when
            that particular type of question is asked.>>

            There are many scriptural ways of talking about the atonement. "Debt, etc." is but *one* of those ways. Guilt is washed away, cleansed. Christ's active and passive obedience. Sacrifice. Etc. These are some examples of other ways of talking about the atonement.

            "Debt" language is not the be-all / end-all of the Lutheran understanding of the Atonement, just as justification (while a very important doctrine) is not the *only* important doctrine. There are many doctrines without which the church would fall: Trinity, incarnation, etc. -- Lutherans *do* confess these, ya know?

            Again, I'm not here to defend Lutheranism. But I certainly hope that when it's doctrines are discussed that they are represented truthfully and fairly. Too often in this forum Lutherans are set up as a straw man that is easily knocked down.

            Jon

            +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

            "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
            the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

            "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
            the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
            everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
            call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

            Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

            The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
            14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

            Office 845.855.3169
            Home 845.855.2616
            E-Mail didache@...
            E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
            Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
            Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Christopher Orr
            You are well representing one way in which some Lutheran pastors seek to mitigate the central role that justification by grace alone through faith alone - and
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 3 9:38 AM
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              You are well representing one way in which some Lutheran pastors seek to
              mitigate the central role that justification by grace alone through faith
              alone - and the terminology and definitions it assumes (e.g., guilt,
              sacrifice and even the term 'atonement' can and often do share a common
              paradigm with 'debt;, 'earn', paid' - plays in Lutheran theology.

              You are more than welcome to ask questions about Orthodox relative to your
              own understand of what real Lutheranism teaches. It isn't my place to judge
              which is 'right', whether that be my own experience as a Lutheran, yours, or
              anyone's. Remember that on this list Lutheranism is broadly defined and is
              not confined to the BofC, LCMS, or a particular wing within a given
              denomination of Lutherans; it also includes the POVs of average Lutheran
              believers.

              Christopher



              On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth <
              didache@...> wrote:

              > Christopher Orr wrote:
              > <<First, 'debt', 'paid' and 'earn' are not part of the question the
              > Orthodox
              > would even ask. Why ask that question? Lutheranism only makes sense when
              > that particular type of question is asked.>>
              >
              > There are many scriptural ways of talking about the atonement. "Debt, etc."
              > is but *one* of those ways. Guilt is washed away, cleansed. Christ's active
              > and passive obedience. Sacrifice. Etc. These are some examples of other ways
              > of talking about the atonement.
              >
              > "Debt" language is not the be-all / end-all of the Lutheran understanding
              > of the Atonement, just as justification (while a very important doctrine) is
              > not the *only* important doctrine. There are many doctrines without which
              > the church would fall: Trinity, incarnation, etc. -- Lutherans *do* confess
              > these, ya know?
              >
              > Again, I'm not here to defend Lutheranism. But I certainly hope that when
              > it's doctrines are discussed that they are represented truthfully and
              > fairly. Too often in this forum Lutherans are set up as a straw man that is
              > easily knocked down.
              >
              > Jon
              >
              > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              >
              > "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
              > the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
              >
              > "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
              > the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
              > everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
              > call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
              >
              > Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
              >
              > The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
              > 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
              >
              > Office 845.855.3169
              > Home 845.855.2616
              > E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
              > E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
              > Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
              > Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dave W.
              Thank you Pastor. I am not a theologian, so I may not be able to express everything the best possible way, thus I appreciate your participation. I am just
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 3 9:47 AM
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                Thank you Pastor. I am not a theologian, so I may not be able to
                express everything the best possible way, thus I appreciate your
                participation. I am just trying to get a clear understanding of what
                the OC professes, since I perceive Lutherans and Orthodox
                misunderstand each other more than they perhaps realize.



                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Rev. Jon M.
                Ellingworth" <didache@...> wrote:
                >
                > Christopher Orr wrote:
                > <<First, 'debt', 'paid' and 'earn' are not part of the question the
                Orthodox
                > would even ask. Why ask that question? Lutheranism only makes sense
                when
                > that particular type of question is asked.>>
                >
                > There are many scriptural ways of talking about the
                atonement. "Debt, etc." is but *one* of those ways. Guilt is washed
                away, cleansed. Christ's active and passive obedience. Sacrifice.
                Etc. These are some examples of other ways of talking about the
                atonement.
                >
                > "Debt" language is not the be-all / end-all of the Lutheran
                understanding of the Atonement, just as justification (while a very
                important doctrine) is not the *only* important doctrine. There are
                many doctrines without which the church would fall: Trinity,
                incarnation, etc. -- Lutherans *do* confess these, ya know?
                >
                > Again, I'm not here to defend Lutheranism. But I certainly hope
                that when it's doctrines are discussed that they are represented
                truthfully and fairly. Too often in this forum Lutherans are set up
                as a straw man that is easily knocked down.
                >
                > Jon
                >
                > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                >
                > "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
                > the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage
                >
                > "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
                > the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
                > everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
                > call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
                >
                > Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
                >
                > The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
                > 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
                >
                > Office 845.855.3169
                > Home 845.855.2616
                > E-Mail didache@...
                > E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
                > Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
                > Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
                Dave W. wrote: Indeed. Jon
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 3 9:51 AM
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                  Dave W. wrote:

                  <<I perceive Lutherans and Orthodox
                  misunderstand each other more than they perhaps realize.>>

                  Indeed.

                  Jon


                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                  "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
                  the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

                  "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
                  the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
                  everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
                  call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

                  Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

                  The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
                  14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

                  Office 845.855.3169
                  Home 845.855.2616
                  E-Mail didache@...
                  E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
                  Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
                  Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • randall hay
                  Dave, here s a wonderful definition of gospel from St John Chrysostom s commentary on Matthew. I posted it a little while back. ... Matthew hath rightly
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 3 5:26 PM
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                    Dave, here's a wonderful definition of "gospel" from St John Chrysostom's commentary on Matthew. I posted it a little while back.

                    ---Meanwhile, I forgot to mention when I gave you the list of reading from the fathers, that as far as commentaries those of the Blessed Theophylact are outstanding in that they are well laid-out, concise, and of course based on previous fathers, particularly St John Chrysostom. Right now only his gospel commentaries have been translated into English. Chrysostom's commentaries (availabe in the old Post-Nicene Fathers set) have been standards since the fourth century, a great treasury and available online. They are actually sermons, fairly lengthy....sometimes take a bit of time to find what he says on a particular verse in the way it's laid out in that edition.


                    "Matthew hath rightly called his work by a name which signifies �gospel�. Yea, for it was the removal of punishment, and remission of sins, and �righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption,� and adoption, and an inheritance of Heaven, and a relationship unto the Son of God, which he came declaring unto all; to enemies, to the perverse, to them that were sitting in darkness. What then could ever be equal to these good tidings? God on earth, man in Heaven; and all became mingled together, angels joined the choirs of men, men had fellowship with the angels, and with the other powers above: and one might see the long war brought to an end, and reconciliation made between God and our nature, the devil brought to shame, demons in flight, death destroyed, Paradise opened, the curse blotted out, sin put out of the way, error driven off, truth returning, the word of godliness everywhere sown, and flourishing in its growth, the polity of those above
                    planted on the earth, those powers in secure intercourse with us, and on earth angels continually haunting, and hope abundant touching things to come."






                    ________________________________
                    From: Dave W. <dkwiech@...>
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:58:55 AM
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] The Orthodox Gospel message


                    Perhaps an Orthodox participant could summarize in a few words what
                    exactly is the understanding of the Gospel and the means of salvation,
                    according to the OC. Yes, as Lutherans we believe that the debt has
                    already been paid by Christ's death and resurrection, and death has
                    been defeated, not by anything we have done or could do, and cannot be
                    earned in any fashion through our "works".

                    I do not get the feeling that the OC teaches otherwise, but it is
                    sometimes hard for us to see this clearly, since we tend to use some of
                    the same theological terms in different ways than the OC. I also think
                    that Lutherans can be quick to judge others and may be misperceiving
                    what is being said by non-Lutherans. I know these discussions have been
                    ongoing on this forum, but can this be summarized in a clear concise
                    manner, so there in less confusion?




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dave W.
                    Randy, Excellent words. Nice and concise. Much appreciated! :)
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 3 6:31 PM
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                      Randy,

                      Excellent words. Nice and concise. Much appreciated! :)


                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave, here's a wonderful definition of "gospel" from St John Chrysostom's commentary on Matthew. I posted it a little while back.
                      >
                      > ---Meanwhile, I forgot to mention when I gave you the list of reading from the fathers, that as far as commentaries those of the Blessed Theophylact are outstanding in that they are well laid-out, concise, and of course based on previous fathers, particularly St John Chrysostom. Right now only his gospel commentaries have been translated into English. Chrysostom's commentaries (availabe in the old Post-Nicene Fathers set) have been standards since the fourth century, a great treasury and available online. They are actually sermons, fairly lengthy....sometimes take a bit of time to find what he says on a particular verse in the way it's laid out in that edition.
                      >
                      >
                      > "Matthew hath rightly called his work by a name which signifies "gospel". Yea, for it was the removal of punishment, and remission of sins, and "righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption," and adoption, and an inheritance of Heaven, and a relationship unto the Son of God, which he came declaring unto all; to enemies, to the perverse, to them that were sitting in darkness. What then could ever be equal to these good tidings? God on earth, man in Heaven; and all became mingled together, angels joined the choirs of men, men had fellowship with the angels, and with the other powers above: and one might see the long war brought to an end, and reconciliation made between God and our nature, the devil brought to shame, demons in flight, death destroyed, Paradise opened, the curse blotted out, sin put out of the way, error driven off, truth returning, the word of godliness everywhere sown, and flourishing in its growth, the polity of those above
                      > planted on the earth, those powers in secure intercourse with us, and on earth angels continually haunting, and hope abundant touching things to come."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Dave W. <dkwiech@...>
                      > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 11:58:55 AM
                      > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] The Orthodox Gospel message
                      >
                      >
                      > Perhaps an Orthodox participant could summarize in a few words what
                      > exactly is the understanding of the Gospel and the means of salvation,
                      > according to the OC. Yes, as Lutherans we believe that the debt has
                      > already been paid by Christ's death and resurrection, and death has
                      > been defeated, not by anything we have done or could do, and cannot be
                      > earned in any fashion through our "works".
                      >
                      > I do not get the feeling that the OC teaches otherwise, but it is
                      > sometimes hard for us to see this clearly, since we tend to use some of
                      > the same theological terms in different ways than the OC. I also think
                      > that Lutherans can be quick to judge others and may be misperceiving
                      > what is being said by non-Lutherans. I know these discussions have been
                      > ongoing on this forum, but can this be summarized in a clear concise
                      > manner, so there in less confusion?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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