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What's wrong with these prayers?

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  • Christopher Orr
    *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, for the sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing fathers and
    Message 1 of 8 , Feb 26, 2007
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      *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, for the
      sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing
      fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother of the
      Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out the mercy
      of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine intercessions
      guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my life
      without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin Theotokos, who
      alone art pure and blessed.

      O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and body,
      forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from all
      opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray for me, a
      sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy of the
      kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of my Lord
      Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.

      *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of victory
      and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos; but as
      thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that can be do
      thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride Unwedded!*

      *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our prayer to thy
      Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*

      *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy protection.
      *

      *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and thy
      protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*

      *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy
      Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*

      *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever blessed and
      all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim
      and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without corruption
      gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Andrew
      I ll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don t mind so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice seems to beautifully
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1, 2007
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        I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don't mind
        so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice
        seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the communion of
        saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee' and 'have
        mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.

        Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations on the
        historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there does
        seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the saints
        pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things like
        'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just doesn't
        seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the 2nd
        century, which makes me question whether it is truly of Apostolic origin.

        One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I became a
        Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home) was I
        saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ in the
        eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me because
        I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like Ignatius,
        Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key issue. But
        sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence for the
        invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.

        Your thoughts?


        Andrew.


        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
        <xcjorr@...> wrote:
        >
        > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
        for the
        > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and God-bearing
        > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother
        of the
        > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out
        the mercy
        > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
        intercessions
        > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my life
        > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
        Theotokos, who
        > alone art pure and blessed.
        >
        > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and body,
        > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from all
        > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray
        for me, a
        > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy
        of the
        > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of my Lord
        > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
        >
        > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of
        victory
        > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos;
        but as
        > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that
        can be do
        > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride Unwedded!*
        >
        > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our
        prayer to thy
        > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
        >
        > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy
        protection.
        > *
        >
        > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and thy
        > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*
        >
        > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the Holy
        > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
        >
        > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
        blessed and
        > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
        Cherubim
        > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without
        corruption
        > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • tantuslabor
        Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!), Let me take on just one of your questions--the all my hope I place in thee one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 1, 2007
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          Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),

          Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I place in
          thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something similar
          to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the hopeless, the
          help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee unto
          thee and the refuge of all Christians.")

          When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of the
          Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John 17: "That they
          may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
          sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the Father
          "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is not
          true God.

          The response to that argument teaches us something important about the
          Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows. In 1
          John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
          life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
          author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is the "only"
          true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me that
          words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their context
          to be understood rightly.

          When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on thee," "who
          alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All my
          hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the hope of
          the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on my own
          abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the God
          who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and our
          trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see true
          wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your word" of
          the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and strength,
          was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory from
          the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
          worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in the
          Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for refuge
          flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God," but
          that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight includes
          the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.

          The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
          reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--even
          the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us with the
          flesh and blood of God's Son.

          I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.

          The unworthy priest,

          Fr. Gregory Hogg

          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
          <drew1095950@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don't mind
          > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice
          > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the communion of
          > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee' and 'have
          > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
          >
          > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations on the
          > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there does
          > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the saints
          > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things like
          > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just doesn't
          > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the 2nd
          > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of Apostolic
          origin.
          >
          > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I became a
          > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home) was I
          > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ in the
          > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me because
          > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like Ignatius,
          > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key issue. But
          > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence for the
          > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
          >
          > Your thoughts?
          >
          >
          > Andrew.
          >
          >
          > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
          > <xcjorr@> wrote:
          > >
          > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
          > for the
          > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
          God-bearing
          > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother
          > of the
          > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out
          > the mercy
          > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
          > intercessions
          > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my
          life
          > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
          > Theotokos, who
          > > alone art pure and blessed.
          > >
          > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and body,
          > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from all
          > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray
          > for me, a
          > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy
          > of the
          > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of
          my Lord
          > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
          > >
          > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of
          > victory
          > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O Theotokos;
          > but as
          > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that
          > can be do
          > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
          Unwedded!*
          > >
          > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our
          > prayer to thy
          > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
          > >
          > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy
          > protection.
          > > *
          > >
          > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and thy
          > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*
          > >
          > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the
          Holy
          > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
          > >
          > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
          > blessed and
          > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
          > Cherubim
          > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without
          > corruption
          > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • Jeremy
          a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just read this morning: The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to pray for
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 3, 2007
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            a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just read
            this morning:
            "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to pray
            for us [. . .]
            "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but it
            should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
            managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray that
            we be given God's grace."
            p. 12

            "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
            petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one might seem
            to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is after
            all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not that
            she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will of God
            that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for all of
            us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of repentance."
            p. 50
            Does that help a little?

            It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
            distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
            grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
            helps a LOT.

            John




            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
            <stoic1348@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
            >
            > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I place in
            > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something similar
            > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the hopeless, the
            > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee unto
            > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
            >
            > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of the
            > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John 17: "That they
            > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
            > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the Father
            > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is not
            > true God.
            >
            > The response to that argument teaches us something important about the
            > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows. In 1
            > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
            > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
            > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is the "only"
            > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me that
            > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their context
            > to be understood rightly.
            >
            > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on thee," "who
            > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All my
            > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the hope of
            > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on my own
            > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the God
            > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and our
            > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see true
            > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your word" of
            > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and strength,
            > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory from
            > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
            > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in the
            > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for refuge
            > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God," but
            > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight includes
            > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
            >
            > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
            > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--even
            > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us with the
            > flesh and blood of God's Son.
            >
            > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
            >
            > The unworthy priest,
            >
            > Fr. Gregory Hogg
            >
            > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
            > drew1095950@ wrote:
            > >
            > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I don't
            mind
            > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the practice
            > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the communion of
            > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee' and
            'have
            > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
            > >
            > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations on the
            > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there does
            > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
            saints
            > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things like
            > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
            doesn't
            > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the 2nd
            > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of Apostolic
            > origin.
            > >
            > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I became a
            > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home) was I
            > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ in
            the
            > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
            because
            > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
            Ignatius,
            > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key issue.
            But
            > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence for the
            > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
            > >
            > > Your thoughts?
            > >
            > >
            > > Andrew.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
            > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God,
            > > for the
            > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
            > God-bearing
            > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good Mother
            > > of the
            > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou pour out
            > > the mercy
            > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
            > > intercessions
            > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time of my
            > life
            > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
            > > Theotokos, who
            > > > alone art pure and blessed.
            > > >
            > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul and
            body,
            > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver me from
            all
            > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin. Pray
            > > for me, a
            > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth worthy
            > > of the
            > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the Mother of
            > my Lord
            > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
            > > >
            > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a feast of
            > > victory
            > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
            Theotokos;
            > > but as
            > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all dangers that
            > > can be do
            > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
            > Unwedded!*
            > > >
            > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present our
            > > prayer to thy
            > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
            > > >
            > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under thy
            > > protection.
            > > > *
            > > >
            > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy help and
            thy
            > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in thee.*
            > > >
            > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection is the
            > Holy
            > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
            > > >
            > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
            > > blessed and
            > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the
            > > Cherubim
            > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who without
            > > corruption
            > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify thee.*
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • michael144000
            Tell us more about energeia and dunamis. ... read ... pray ... it ... that ... might seem ... after ... that ... of God ... all of ... repentance. ... place
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 3, 2007
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              Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.

              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
              <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
              >
              > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
              read
              > this morning:
              > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
              pray
              > for us [. . .]
              > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
              it
              > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
              > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
              that
              > we be given God's grace."
              > p. 12
              >
              > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
              > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
              might seem
              > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
              after
              > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
              that
              > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
              of God
              > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
              all of
              > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
              repentance."
              > p. 50
              > Does that help a little?
              >
              > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
              > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
              > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
              > helps a LOT.
              >
              > John
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
              > <stoic1348@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
              > >
              > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
              place in
              > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
              similar
              > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
              hopeless, the
              > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
              unto
              > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
              > >
              > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
              the
              > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
              17: "That they
              > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
              > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
              Father
              > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
              not
              > > true God.
              > >
              > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
              about the
              > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
              In 1
              > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
              > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
              > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
              the "only"
              > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
              that
              > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
              context
              > > to be understood rightly.
              > >
              > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
              thee," "who
              > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
              my
              > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
              hope of
              > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
              my own
              > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
              God
              > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
              our
              > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
              true
              > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
              word" of
              > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
              strength,
              > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
              from
              > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
              > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
              the
              > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
              refuge
              > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
              but
              > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
              includes
              > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
              > >
              > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
              > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
              even
              > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
              with the
              > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
              > >
              > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
              > >
              > > The unworthy priest,
              > >
              > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
              > >
              > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
              > > drew1095950@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
              don't
              > mind
              > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
              practice
              > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
              communion of
              > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
              and
              > 'have
              > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
              > > >
              > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
              on the
              > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
              does
              > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
              > saints
              > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
              like
              > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
              > doesn't
              > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
              2nd
              > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
              Apostolic
              > > origin.
              > > >
              > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
              became a
              > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
              was I
              > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
              in
              > the
              > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
              > because
              > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
              > Ignatius,
              > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
              issue.
              > But
              > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
              for the
              > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
              > > >
              > > > Your thoughts?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Andrew.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
              > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
              of God,
              > > > for the
              > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
              > > God-bearing
              > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
              Mother
              > > > of the
              > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
              pour out
              > > > the mercy
              > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
              > > > intercessions
              > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
              of my
              > > life
              > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
              > > > Theotokos, who
              > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
              > > > >
              > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
              and
              > body,
              > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
              me from
              > all
              > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
              Pray
              > > > for me, a
              > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
              worthy
              > > > of the
              > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
              Mother of
              > > my Lord
              > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
              > > > >
              > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
              feast of
              > > > victory
              > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
              > Theotokos;
              > > > but as
              > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
              dangers that
              > > > can be do
              > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
              > > Unwedded!*
              > > > >
              > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
              our
              > > > prayer to thy
              > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
              > > > >
              > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
              thy
              > > > protection.
              > > > > *
              > > > >
              > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
              help and
              > thy
              > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
              thee.*
              > > > >
              > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
              is the
              > > Holy
              > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
              > > > >
              > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
              > > > blessed and
              > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
              than the
              > > > Cherubim
              > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
              without
              > > > corruption
              > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
              thee.*
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Jeremy
              Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself. I ll keep
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 4, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
                was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself.
                I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
                Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
                this one?


                John


                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "michael144000"
                <grailpriest@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
                >
                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
                > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
                > >
                > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
                > read
                > > this morning:
                > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
                > pray
                > > for us [. . .]
                > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
                > it
                > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
                > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
                > that
                > > we be given God's grace."
                > > p. 12
                > >
                > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
                > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
                > might seem
                > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
                > after
                > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
                > that
                > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
                > of God
                > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
                > all of
                > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
                > repentance."
                > > p. 50
                > > Does that help a little?
                > >
                > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
                > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
                > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
                > > helps a LOT.
                > >
                > > John
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
                > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
                > > >
                > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
                > place in
                > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
                > similar
                > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
                > hopeless, the
                > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
                > unto
                > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
                > > >
                > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
                > the
                > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
                > 17: "That they
                > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
                > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
                > Father
                > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
                > not
                > > > true God.
                > > >
                > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
                > about the
                > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
                > In 1
                > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
                > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
                > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
                > the "only"
                > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
                > that
                > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
                > context
                > > > to be understood rightly.
                > > >
                > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
                > thee," "who
                > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
                > my
                > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
                > hope of
                > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
                > my own
                > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
                > God
                > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
                > our
                > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
                > true
                > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
                > word" of
                > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
                > strength,
                > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
                > from
                > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
                > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
                > the
                > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
                > refuge
                > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
                > but
                > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
                > includes
                > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
                > > >
                > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
                > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
                > even
                > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
                > with the
                > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
                > > >
                > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
                > > >
                > > > The unworthy priest,
                > > >
                > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                > > >
                > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
                > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
                > don't
                > > mind
                > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
                > practice
                > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
                > communion of
                > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
                > and
                > > 'have
                > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
                > > > >
                > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
                > on the
                > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
                > does
                > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
                > > saints
                > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
                > like
                > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
                > > doesn't
                > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
                > 2nd
                > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
                > Apostolic
                > > > origin.
                > > > >
                > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
                > became a
                > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
                > was I
                > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
                > in
                > > the
                > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
                > > because
                > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
                > > Ignatius,
                > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
                > issue.
                > > But
                > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
                > for the
                > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
                > > > >
                > > > > Your thoughts?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Andrew.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
                > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
                > of God,
                > > > > for the
                > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
                > > > God-bearing
                > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
                > Mother
                > > > > of the
                > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
                > pour out
                > > > > the mercy
                > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
                > > > > intercessions
                > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
                > of my
                > > > life
                > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
                > > > > Theotokos, who
                > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
                > and
                > > body,
                > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
                > me from
                > > all
                > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
                > Pray
                > > > > for me, a
                > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
                > worthy
                > > > > of the
                > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
                > Mother of
                > > > my Lord
                > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
                > feast of
                > > > > victory
                > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
                > > Theotokos;
                > > > > but as
                > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
                > dangers that
                > > > > can be do
                > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
                > > > Unwedded!*
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
                > our
                > > > > prayer to thy
                > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
                > thy
                > > > > protection.
                > > > > > *
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
                > help and
                > > thy
                > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
                > thee.*
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
                > is the
                > > > Holy
                > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
                > > > > >
                > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
                > > > > blessed and
                > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
                > than the
                > > > > Cherubim
                > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
                > without
                > > > > corruption
                > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
                > thee.*
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
              • Christopher Orr
                God s energies are His direct presence, not just his goodwill toward us. God s Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, Who is everywhere present and filleth all
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 4, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  God's energies are His direct presence, not just his 'goodwill' toward us.
                  God's Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, "Who is everywhere present and
                  filleth all things".

                  Christopher


                  On 3/4/07, Jeremy <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
                  > was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself.
                  > I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
                  > Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
                  > this one?
                  >
                  > John
                  >
                  > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "michael144000"
                  >
                  > <grailpriest@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
                  > >
                  > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Jeremy"
                  > > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
                  > > read
                  > > > this morning:
                  > > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
                  > > pray
                  > > > for us [. . .]
                  > > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
                  > > it
                  > > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
                  > > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
                  > > that
                  > > > we be given God's grace."
                  > > > p. 12
                  > > >
                  > > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
                  > > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
                  > > might seem
                  > > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
                  > > after
                  > > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
                  > > that
                  > > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
                  > > of God
                  > > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
                  > > all of
                  > > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
                  > > repentance."
                  > > > p. 50
                  > > > Does that help a little?
                  > > >
                  > > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
                  > > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
                  > > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
                  > > > helps a LOT.
                  > > >
                  > > > John
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "tantuslabor"
                  > > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
                  > > place in
                  > > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
                  > > similar
                  > > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
                  > > hopeless, the
                  > > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
                  > > unto
                  > > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
                  > > the
                  > > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
                  > > 17: "That they
                  > > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
                  > > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
                  > > Father
                  > > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
                  > > not
                  > > > > true God.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
                  > > about the
                  > > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
                  > > In 1
                  > > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
                  > > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
                  > > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
                  > > the "only"
                  > > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
                  > > that
                  > > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
                  > > context
                  > > > > to be understood rightly.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
                  > > thee," "who
                  > > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
                  > > my
                  > > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
                  > > hope of
                  > > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
                  > > my own
                  > > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
                  > > God
                  > > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
                  > > our
                  > > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
                  > > true
                  > > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
                  > > word" of
                  > > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
                  > > strength,
                  > > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
                  > > from
                  > > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
                  > > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
                  > > the
                  > > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
                  > > refuge
                  > > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
                  > > but
                  > > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
                  > > includes
                  > > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
                  > > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
                  > > even
                  > > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
                  > > with the
                  > > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The unworthy priest,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Andrew"
                  > > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
                  > > don't
                  > > > mind
                  > > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
                  > > practice
                  > > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
                  > > communion of
                  > > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
                  > > and
                  > > > 'have
                  > > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
                  > > on the
                  > > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
                  > > does
                  > > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
                  > > > saints
                  > > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
                  > > like
                  > > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
                  > > > doesn't
                  > > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
                  > > 2nd
                  > > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
                  > > Apostolic
                  > > > > origin.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
                  > > became a
                  > > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
                  > > was I
                  > > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
                  > > in
                  > > > the
                  > > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
                  > > > because
                  > > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
                  > > > Ignatius,
                  > > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
                  > > issue.
                  > > > But
                  > > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
                  > > for the
                  > > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Your thoughts?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Andrew.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                  > "Christopher Orr"
                  > > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
                  > > of God,
                  > > > > > for the
                  > > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
                  > > > > God-bearing
                  > > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
                  > > Mother
                  > > > > > of the
                  > > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
                  > > pour out
                  > > > > > the mercy
                  > > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
                  > > > > > intercessions
                  > > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
                  > > of my
                  > > > > life
                  > > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
                  > > > > > Theotokos, who
                  > > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
                  > > and
                  > > > body,
                  > > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
                  > > me from
                  > > > all
                  > > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
                  > > Pray
                  > > > > > for me, a
                  > > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
                  > > worthy
                  > > > > > of the
                  > > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
                  > > Mother of
                  > > > > my Lord
                  > > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
                  > > feast of
                  > > > > > victory
                  > > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
                  > > > Theotokos;
                  > > > > > but as
                  > > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
                  > > dangers that
                  > > > > > can be do
                  > > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
                  > > > > Unwedded!*
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
                  > > our
                  > > > > > prayer to thy
                  > > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
                  > > thy
                  > > > > > protection.
                  > > > > > > *
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
                  > > help and
                  > > > thy
                  > > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
                  > > thee.*
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
                  > > is the
                  > > > > Holy
                  > > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
                  > > > > > blessed and
                  > > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
                  > > than the
                  > > > > > Cherubim
                  > > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
                  > > without
                  > > > > > corruption
                  > > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
                  > > thee.*
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jeremy
                  Right. Thanks, Christopher. Sometimes I forget it really is that simple. John ... toward us. ... myself. ...
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Right.
                    Thanks, Christopher.
                    Sometimes I forget it really is that simple.


                    John


                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
                    <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > God's energies are His direct presence, not just his 'goodwill'
                    toward us.
                    > God's Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, "Who is everywhere present and
                    > filleth all things".
                    >
                    > Christopher
                    >
                    >
                    > On 3/4/07, Jeremy <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
                    > > was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them
                    myself.
                    > > I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
                    > > Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
                    > > this one?
                    > >
                    > > John
                    > >
                    > > --- In
                    LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "michael144000"
                    > >
                    > > <grailpriest@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In
                    LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "Jeremy"
                    > > > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
                    > > > read
                    > > > > this morning:
                    > > > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
                    > > > pray
                    > > > > for us [. . .]
                    > > > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
                    > > > it
                    > > > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
                    > > > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
                    > > > that
                    > > > > we be given God's grace."
                    > > > > p. 12
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a
                    number of
                    > > > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
                    > > > might seem
                    > > > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
                    > > > after
                    > > > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
                    > > > that
                    > > > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
                    > > > of God
                    > > > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
                    > > > all of
                    > > > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
                    > > > repentance."
                    > > > > p. 50
                    > > > > Does that help a little?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
                    > > > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
                    > > > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and
                    dunamis
                    > > > > helps a LOT.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > John
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In
                    LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "tantuslabor"
                    > > > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
                    > > > place in
                    > > > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
                    > > > similar
                    > > > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
                    > > > hopeless, the
                    > > > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
                    > > > unto
                    > > > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
                    > > > 17: "That they
                    > > > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou
                    hast
                    > > > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
                    > > > Father
                    > > > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
                    > > > not
                    > > > > > true God.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
                    > > > about the
                    > > > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
                    > > > In 1
                    > > > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and
                    eternal
                    > > > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the
                    same
                    > > > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
                    > > > the "only"
                    > > > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
                    > > > that
                    > > > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
                    > > > context
                    > > > > > to be understood rightly.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
                    > > > thee," "who
                    > > > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
                    > > > my
                    > > > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
                    > > > hope of
                    > > > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
                    > > > my own
                    > > > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
                    > > > God
                    > > > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
                    > > > our
                    > > > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
                    > > > true
                    > > > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
                    > > > word" of
                    > > > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
                    > > > strength,
                    > > > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
                    > > > from
                    > > > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
                    > > > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
                    > > > the
                    > > > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
                    > > > refuge
                    > > > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
                    > > > but
                    > > > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
                    > > > includes
                    > > > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
                    > > > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
                    > > > even
                    > > > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
                    > > > with the
                    > > > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The unworthy priest,
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- In
                    LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "Andrew"
                    > > > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
                    > > > don't
                    > > > > mind
                    > > > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
                    > > > practice
                    > > > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
                    > > > communion of
                    > > > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
                    > > > and
                    > > > > 'have
                    > > > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
                    > > > on the
                    > > > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
                    > > > does
                    > > > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
                    > > > > saints
                    > > > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
                    > > > like
                    > > > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
                    > > > > doesn't
                    > > > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
                    > > > 2nd
                    > > > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
                    > > > Apostolic
                    > > > > > origin.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
                    > > > became a
                    > > > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
                    > > > was I
                    > > > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
                    > > > in
                    > > > > the
                    > > > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
                    > > > > because
                    > > > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
                    > > > > Ignatius,
                    > > > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
                    > > > issue.
                    > > > > But
                    > > > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
                    > > > for the
                    > > > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Your thoughts?
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Andrew.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > --- In
                    LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > > "Christopher Orr"
                    > > > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
                    > > > of God,
                    > > > > > > for the
                    > > > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
                    > > > > > God-bearing
                    > > > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
                    > > > Mother
                    > > > > > > of the
                    > > > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
                    > > > pour out
                    > > > > > > the mercy
                    > > > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
                    > > > > > > intercessions
                    > > > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
                    > > > of my
                    > > > > > life
                    > > > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
                    > > > > > > Theotokos, who
                    > > > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
                    > > > and
                    > > > > body,
                    > > > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
                    > > > me from
                    > > > > all
                    > > > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
                    > > > Pray
                    > > > > > > for me, a
                    > > > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
                    > > > worthy
                    > > > > > > of the
                    > > > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
                    > > > Mother of
                    > > > > > my Lord
                    > > > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
                    > > > feast of
                    > > > > > > victory
                    > > > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
                    > > > > Theotokos;
                    > > > > > > but as
                    > > > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
                    > > > dangers that
                    > > > > > > can be do
                    > > > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou
                    Bride
                    > > > > > Unwedded!*
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
                    > > > our
                    > > > > > > prayer to thy
                    > > > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
                    > > > thy
                    > > > > > > protection.
                    > > > > > > > *
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
                    > > > help and
                    > > > > thy
                    > > > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
                    > > > thee.*
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
                    > > > is the
                    > > > > > Holy
                    > > > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art
                    ever
                    > > > > > > blessed and
                    > > > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
                    > > > than the
                    > > > > > > Cherubim
                    > > > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
                    > > > without
                    > > > > > > corruption
                    > > > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
                    > > > thee.*
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
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