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Re: Implications of intercessory prayers...

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  • Dave @¿@¬
    For clarification... If a member of the Church Triumphant is going to intervene for you s/he must first be able to hear your (and everybody elses) request,
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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      For clarification...

      If a member of the Church Triumphant is going to intervene for you
      s/he must first be able to hear your (and everybody elses) request,
      right?

      Dave
    • Dave @¿@¬
      Omniscience might even come into play here. Dave
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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        Omniscience might even come into play here.

        Dave
      • Christopher Orr
        Only the omnipresence of God with Whom they are united and reflect. The communication of properties between divine and human in Jesus Christ is the
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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          Only the omnipresence of God with Whom they are united and reflect.

          The communication of properties between divine and human in Jesus Christ is
          the communication of properties between the common divine and human natures
          we share with each other and Jesus.

          Christopher



          On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

          > Howdy!
          >
          > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
          > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
          >
          > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
          > omnipresence of the dead?"
          >
          > Dave
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Harry Reineke
          Who Says That They Can t? ... -- Sent from my mobile device
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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            Who Says That They Can't?

            On 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
            > For clarification...
            >
            > If a member of the Church Triumphant is going to intervene for you
            > s/he must first be able to hear your (and everybody elses) request,
            > right?
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            >

            --
            Sent from my mobile device
          • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the answer is
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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              If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God from time to time may send them on some task.  They are however alive to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life. Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar

               --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

              From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory prayers...
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM






              Howdy!

              I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
              that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.

              "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
              omnipresence of the dead?"

              Dave



















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • randall hay
              I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians worship and into their
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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                I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant physically:

                "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."

                This is truly staggering.


                St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.

                God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.

                Subdeacon Randy




                ________________________________
                From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory prayers...




                If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life. Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar

                --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:

                From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM

                Howdy!

                I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.

                "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                omnipresence of the dead?"

                Dave

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave W.
                At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page 130, where it exhorts the
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                  At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
                  question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
                  130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:

                  "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
                  shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
                  hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
                  body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
                  true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
                  thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
                  dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
                  upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
                  of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
                  me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
                  sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
                  and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
                  hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
                  glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."

                  To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
                  God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
                  frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
                  the fence, as much as the OC draws me.


                  Dave




                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay
                  <stortford@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
                  Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
                  and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
                  physically:
                  >
                  > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
                  to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
                  >
                  > This is truly staggering.
                  >
                  >
                  > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
                  the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
                  know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
                  you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
                  >
                  > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
                  least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
                  sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
                  even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
                  >
                  > Subdeacon Randy
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
                  > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory
                  prayers...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
                  dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
                  answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
                  from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
                  to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
                  Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
                  affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
                  more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
                  their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
                  under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
                  > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                  > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                  > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
                  >
                  > Howdy!
                  >
                  > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                  > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
                  >
                  > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                  > omnipresence of the dead?"
                  >
                  > Dave
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Rosemarie Lieffring
                  Father Gregory, former Lutheran pastor now Orthodox priest and maybe even a participate here did a series addressing this prayer. The links are:
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                    Father Gregory, former Lutheran pastor now Orthodox priest and maybe even a
                    participate here did a series addressing this prayer. The links are:

                    http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/08/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion.html
                    http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion.html
                    http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion_08.html
                    http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion_15.html

                    Maybe you will find these helpful.-----R

                    On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

                    > At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
                    > question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
                    > 130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:
                    >
                    > "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
                    > shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
                    > hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
                    > body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
                    > true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
                    > thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
                    > dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
                    > upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
                    > of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
                    > me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
                    > sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
                    > and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
                    > hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
                    > glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."
                    >
                    > To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
                    > God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
                    > frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
                    > the fence, as much as the OC draws me.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                    > randall hay
                    >
                    > <stortford@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
                    > Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
                    > and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
                    > physically:
                    > >
                    > > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
                    > to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
                    > >
                    > > This is truly staggering.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
                    > the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
                    > know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
                    > you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
                    > >
                    > > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
                    > least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
                    > sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
                    > even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
                    > >
                    > > Subdeacon Randy
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
                    >
                    > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                    > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory
                    > prayers...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
                    > dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
                    > answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
                    > from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
                    > to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
                    > Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
                    > affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
                    > more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
                    > their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
                    > under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
                    > >
                    > > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
                    > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                    > > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                    > > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
                    > >
                    > > Howdy!
                    > >
                    > > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                    > > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
                    > >
                    > > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                    > > omnipresence of the dead?"
                    > >
                    > > Dave
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
                    I apologize for not removing the [SPAM] designation on previous posts. I just now realized it was there. I will try to find a way to stop that. New notebook
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                      I apologize for not removing the [SPAM] designation on previous posts. I just now realized it was there. I will try to find a way to stop that. New notebook computer with a new OS, still learning its quirks.

                      Jon

                      +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                      "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
                      the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

                      "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
                      the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
                      everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
                      call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

                      Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

                      The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
                      14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

                      Office 845.855.3169
                      Home 845.855.2616
                      E-Mail didache@...
                      E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
                      Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
                      Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • randall hay
                      We now have two Daves and two Randys involved in the discussion, it seems. This could get confusing. I might mention that Orthodoxy has no dogma related to
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                        We now have two Daves and two Randys involved in the discussion, it seems. This could get confusing.

                        I might mention that Orthodoxy has no dogma related to anything except Christ and the Trinity....nothing about Mary apart from Him. (This is unlike Catholicism, with its dogma of the immaculate conception). It is because of her relation to Christ and His virgin birth that she was addressed by the ecumenical councils and given the title "Theotokos." In icons she is normally holding Christ and gesturing toward Him.

                        THat prayer can be very effective is an understatement: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power," James 5:16. The prayer of the saints and faithful that God hears is always for our salvation...hence can accomplish "miraculous" things...even like those mentioned the prayer you brought up. As Christopher pointed out so nicely, it's always God working through the saints....

                        We should remember too that Scripture speaks of people saving others, with prayer being implicit. Paul says that a believing wife can save her husband (I Pet. 3:1); Timothy saves others as well as himself (I Tim. 4:16). Paul says he has become all things to all men so that he might save some (I Cor. 9:23).

                        I'd also like to point out 2 Pet 1:14-5, "....The putting off of my body will be soon....I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things."
                        Suggestive of personal involvement, wouldn't you say? I mean, how are you going to help people remember things "at any time" when you're dead? Not by a predictable earthly means, obviously.
                        If all he'd meant was he wanted people to remember what he was writing he'd have done like Paul and just said "remember to do thus-and-such." He wouldn't have said this about making sure they can remember "THESE" things, whatever they are, at any time after he is dead.

                        ---As for good Orthodox patristic reading, there is so much to recommend, since it stretches from the earliest writings to the present.

                        As for stuff that can be online as well as hard copy, here are a few personal favorites of mine. I recommend reading the fathers rather than about the fathers:

                        * St Ignatius of Antioch, if you haven't read him, is short and incredibly deep.
                        * Irenaeus, Against the Heretics, book 4 or 5
                        * Athanasius, On the Incarnation, or Life of Anthony if you want a hagiography
                        * Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures. This is the earliest catechism....they weren't written down much then since Christianity was a capital offense. (Note there is no reference to the Pope in the earliest extant catechism.)
                        *St John Cassian's Conferences. Interviews with leading desert monatics from the 4th (?) century
                        * St John of Damascus, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. 8th century (still no mention of pope)
                        * St Gregory of Nazianzus wrote wonderful orations on various topics...short and incredibly deep.
                        * Basil the Great: On the Holy Spirit
                        * Ambrose: On the Mysteries. Short, very deep.

                        All the above are availble in the old ANF/PNF set.

                        For newer stuff, I've recently enjoyed books written by Archimandrite Sophrony....any books by or about Elder Paisios, or Elder Porphyrios....probably there are online snippets from the above.

                        There is a whole bunch from the intervening centuries, of course, and these are just some of my personal favorites.....

                        In Christ,

                        Subdeacon Randy






                        ________________________________
                        From: Dave W. <dkwiech@...>
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:19:07 PM
                        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Implications of intercessory prayers...


                        At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
                        question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
                        130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:

                        "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
                        shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
                        hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
                        body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
                        true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
                        thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
                        dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
                        upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
                        of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
                        me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
                        sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
                        and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
                        hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
                        glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."

                        To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
                        God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
                        frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
                        the fence, as much as the OC draws me.

                        Dave

                        --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, randall hay
                        <stortford@. ..> wrote:
                        >
                        > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
                        Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
                        and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
                        physically:
                        >
                        > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
                        to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
                        >
                        > This is truly staggering.
                        >
                        >
                        > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
                        the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
                        know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
                        you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
                        >
                        > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
                        least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
                        sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
                        even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
                        >
                        > Subdeacon Randy
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@ ...>
                        > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory
                        prayers...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
                        dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
                        answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
                        from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
                        to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
                        Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
                        affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
                        more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
                        their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
                        under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
                        >
                        > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet . net> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet . net>
                        > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                        > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                        > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
                        >
                        > Howdy!
                        >
                        > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                        > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
                        >
                        > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                        > omnipresence of the dead?"
                        >
                        > Dave
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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