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Implications of intercessory prayers...

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  • Dave @¿@¬
    Howdy! I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response. Does requesting the
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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      Howdy!

      I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
      that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.

      "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
      omnipresence of the dead?"

      Dave
    • Dave @¿@¬
      For clarification... If a member of the Church Triumphant is going to intervene for you s/he must first be able to hear your (and everybody elses) request,
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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        For clarification...

        If a member of the Church Triumphant is going to intervene for you
        s/he must first be able to hear your (and everybody elses) request,
        right?

        Dave
      • Dave @¿@¬
        Omniscience might even come into play here. Dave
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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          Omniscience might even come into play here.

          Dave
        • Christopher Orr
          Only the omnipresence of God with Whom they are united and reflect. The communication of properties between divine and human in Jesus Christ is the
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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            Only the omnipresence of God with Whom they are united and reflect.

            The communication of properties between divine and human in Jesus Christ is
            the communication of properties between the common divine and human natures
            we share with each other and Jesus.

            Christopher



            On Sun, Feb 15, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

            > Howdy!
            >
            > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
            > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
            >
            > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
            > omnipresence of the dead?"
            >
            > Dave
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Harry Reineke
            Who Says That They Can t? ... -- Sent from my mobile device
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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              Who Says That They Can't?

              On 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
              > For clarification...
              >
              > If a member of the Church Triumphant is going to intervene for you
              > s/he must first be able to hear your (and everybody elses) request,
              > right?
              >
              > Dave
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Sent from my mobile device
            • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                  If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the answer is
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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                If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God from time to time may send them on some task.  They are however alive to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life. Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar

                 --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

                From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM






                Howdy!

                I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.

                "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                omnipresence of the dead?"

                Dave



















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • randall hay
                I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians worship and into their
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 15, 2009
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                  I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant physically:

                  "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."

                  This is truly staggering.


                  St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.

                  God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.

                  Subdeacon Randy




                  ________________________________
                  From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory prayers...




                  If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life. Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar

                  --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:

                  From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                  To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM

                  Howdy!

                  I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                  that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.

                  "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                  omnipresence of the dead?"

                  Dave

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dave W.
                  At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page 130, where it exhorts the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                    At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
                    question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
                    130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:

                    "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
                    shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
                    hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
                    body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
                    true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
                    thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
                    dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
                    upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
                    of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
                    me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
                    sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
                    and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
                    hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
                    glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."

                    To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
                    God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
                    frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
                    the fence, as much as the OC draws me.


                    Dave




                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay
                    <stortford@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
                    Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
                    and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
                    physically:
                    >
                    > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
                    to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
                    >
                    > This is truly staggering.
                    >
                    >
                    > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
                    the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
                    know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
                    you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
                    >
                    > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
                    least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
                    sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
                    even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
                    >
                    > Subdeacon Randy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
                    > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory
                    prayers...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
                    dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
                    answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
                    from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
                    to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
                    Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
                    affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
                    more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
                    their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
                    under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
                    >
                    > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
                    > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                    > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
                    >
                    > Howdy!
                    >
                    > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                    > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
                    >
                    > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                    > omnipresence of the dead?"
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Rosemarie Lieffring
                    Father Gregory, former Lutheran pastor now Orthodox priest and maybe even a participate here did a series addressing this prayer. The links are:
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                      Father Gregory, former Lutheran pastor now Orthodox priest and maybe even a
                      participate here did a series addressing this prayer. The links are:

                      http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/08/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion.html
                      http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion.html
                      http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion_08.html
                      http://frgregory.blogspot.com/2008/09/prayer-to-theotokos-ii-post-communion_15.html

                      Maybe you will find these helpful.-----R

                      On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Dave W. <dkwiech@...> wrote:

                      > At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
                      > question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
                      > 130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:
                      >
                      > "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
                      > shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
                      > hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
                      > body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
                      > true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
                      > thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
                      > dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
                      > upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
                      > of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
                      > me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
                      > sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
                      > and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
                      > hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
                      > glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."
                      >
                      > To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
                      > God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
                      > frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
                      > the fence, as much as the OC draws me.
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > randall hay
                      >
                      > <stortford@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
                      > Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
                      > and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
                      > physically:
                      > >
                      > > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
                      > to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
                      > >
                      > > This is truly staggering.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
                      > the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
                      > know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
                      > you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
                      > >
                      > > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
                      > least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
                      > sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
                      > even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
                      > >
                      > > Subdeacon Randy
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
                      >
                      > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                      > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Implications of intercessory
                      > prayers...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
                      > dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
                      > answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
                      > from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
                      > to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
                      > Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
                      > affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
                      > more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
                      > their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
                      > under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
                      > >
                      > > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet. net>
                      > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                      > > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                      > > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
                      > >
                      > > Howdy!
                      > >
                      > > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                      > > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
                      > >
                      > > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                      > > omnipresence of the dead?"
                      > >
                      > > Dave
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
                      I apologize for not removing the [SPAM] designation on previous posts. I just now realized it was there. I will try to find a way to stop that. New notebook
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                        I apologize for not removing the [SPAM] designation on previous posts. I just now realized it was there. I will try to find a way to stop that. New notebook computer with a new OS, still learning its quirks.

                        Jon

                        +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                        "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not
                        the Church for his mother." - St. Cyprian of Carthage

                        "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also
                        the Word of all,and the Holy Spirit is one and the same
                        everywhere. And there is only one Virgin Mother;I love to
                        call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria

                        Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth

                        The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
                        14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564

                        Office 845.855.3169
                        Home 845.855.2616
                        E-Mail didache@...
                        E-Mail pawlinglutheran@...
                        Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
                        Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • randall hay
                        We now have two Daves and two Randys involved in the discussion, it seems. This could get confusing. I might mention that Orthodoxy has no dogma related to
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 28, 2009
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                          We now have two Daves and two Randys involved in the discussion, it seems. This could get confusing.

                          I might mention that Orthodoxy has no dogma related to anything except Christ and the Trinity....nothing about Mary apart from Him. (This is unlike Catholicism, with its dogma of the immaculate conception). It is because of her relation to Christ and His virgin birth that she was addressed by the ecumenical councils and given the title "Theotokos." In icons she is normally holding Christ and gesturing toward Him.

                          THat prayer can be very effective is an understatement: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power," James 5:16. The prayer of the saints and faithful that God hears is always for our salvation...hence can accomplish "miraculous" things...even like those mentioned the prayer you brought up. As Christopher pointed out so nicely, it's always God working through the saints....

                          We should remember too that Scripture speaks of people saving others, with prayer being implicit. Paul says that a believing wife can save her husband (I Pet. 3:1); Timothy saves others as well as himself (I Tim. 4:16). Paul says he has become all things to all men so that he might save some (I Cor. 9:23).

                          I'd also like to point out 2 Pet 1:14-5, "....The putting off of my body will be soon....I will see to it that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things."
                          Suggestive of personal involvement, wouldn't you say? I mean, how are you going to help people remember things "at any time" when you're dead? Not by a predictable earthly means, obviously.
                          If all he'd meant was he wanted people to remember what he was writing he'd have done like Paul and just said "remember to do thus-and-such." He wouldn't have said this about making sure they can remember "THESE" things, whatever they are, at any time after he is dead.

                          ---As for good Orthodox patristic reading, there is so much to recommend, since it stretches from the earliest writings to the present.

                          As for stuff that can be online as well as hard copy, here are a few personal favorites of mine. I recommend reading the fathers rather than about the fathers:

                          * St Ignatius of Antioch, if you haven't read him, is short and incredibly deep.
                          * Irenaeus, Against the Heretics, book 4 or 5
                          * Athanasius, On the Incarnation, or Life of Anthony if you want a hagiography
                          * Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures. This is the earliest catechism....they weren't written down much then since Christianity was a capital offense. (Note there is no reference to the Pope in the earliest extant catechism.)
                          *St John Cassian's Conferences. Interviews with leading desert monatics from the 4th (?) century
                          * St John of Damascus, Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. 8th century (still no mention of pope)
                          * St Gregory of Nazianzus wrote wonderful orations on various topics...short and incredibly deep.
                          * Basil the Great: On the Holy Spirit
                          * Ambrose: On the Mysteries. Short, very deep.

                          All the above are availble in the old ANF/PNF set.

                          For newer stuff, I've recently enjoyed books written by Archimandrite Sophrony....any books by or about Elder Paisios, or Elder Porphyrios....probably there are online snippets from the above.

                          There is a whole bunch from the intervening centuries, of course, and these are just some of my personal favorites.....

                          In Christ,

                          Subdeacon Randy






                          ________________________________
                          From: Dave W. <dkwiech@...>
                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 1:19:07 PM
                          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Implications of intercessory prayers...


                          At the risk of sounding impolite, I wish to ask a very Lutheran
                          question about a prayer found in the Antiochian Service Book, page
                          130, where it exhorts the Virgin Mary:

                          "O all-holy Lady Theotokos, light of my darkened soul, my hope, my
                          shelter, my refuge, my consolation and my joy; I thank thee that thou
                          hast permitted me, unworthy though I be, to partake of the immaculate
                          body and precious blood of thy Son. O thou who didst bring forth the
                          true Light, give the light of understanding to the eyes of my heart; O
                          thou who didst bear the Fountain of Immortality, quicken me who am
                          dead in sin. O compassionate Mother of the merciful God, have mercy
                          upon me and grant me humility and contrition of heart, and humbleness
                          of mind, and deliverance from bondage to evil thoughts. And permit
                          me, unto my last breath, to receive, without condemnation, the
                          sanctification of these Holy Mysteries, unto the healing of both body
                          and soul. Grant me tears of repentance and of confession, that I may
                          hymn thee and glorify thee all the days of my life. For blessed and
                          glorified art thou unto all the ages. Amen."

                          To Protestant ears, this sounds idolatrous, given that only the Triune
                          God can provide what its asking for. What am I missing here? To be
                          frank, it is this sort of intercessory prayer that is keeping me on
                          the fence, as much as the OC draws me.

                          Dave

                          --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, randall hay
                          <stortford@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > I might add that this sort of thing is exemplified in the NT. In
                          Col 2:5 Paul comments that he is able to see the Colossians' worship
                          and into their spiritual lives, even though he is quite distant
                          physically:
                          >
                          > "Though I am absent in body, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing
                          to see your good order and firmness of your faith in Christ."
                          >
                          > This is truly staggering.
                          >
                          >
                          > St John comments on the supra-human knowledge God can give through
                          the Holy Spirit: "You have been anointed by the Holy One, and you
                          know all" (Greek oidate pantes), I John 2:20; "His anointed teaches
                          you about everything" (Greek, peri panton), 2:27.
                          >
                          > God does not give everyone these gifts, of course. But if we are at
                          least capable of such knowledge through the Holy Spirit while still
                          sinners on earth, our knowledge once we fall asleep in Christ will be
                          even much greater....beyond what we can understand now.
                          >
                          > Subdeacon Randy
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@ ...>
                          > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                          > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:41:52 PM
                          > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory
                          prayers...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > If by this you mean requesting the intercessions of those Christians
                          dead in the body but whose souls are alive in the hand of God, the
                          answer is certainly: NO, they have no gift of ubiquity save as God
                          from time to time may send them on some task. They are however alive
                          to the Holy Spirit Who is everywhere present and the Giver of Life.
                          Presumeably the Divine and Holy Spirit conveys to them our continued
                          affection for them and the sense of our prayers. They in their now
                          more advanced spiritual condition continue more knowledgeably with
                          their unceasing praise and intercession which they lift up to God from
                          under the heavenly altar. Br Finbar
                          >
                          > --- On Sun, 2/15/09, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet . net> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@frontiernet . net>
                          > Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Implications of intercessory prayers...
                          > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                          > Date: Sunday, February 15, 2009, 3:44 PM
                          >
                          > Howdy!
                          >
                          > I just ran across a very thought provolking question and I thought
                          > that I would post it here in hope of an Orthodox response.
                          >
                          > "Does requesting the intercessory prayer of the dead imply the
                          > omnipresence of the dead?"
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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