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RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville

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  • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
    Thank you very much. Your thoughts were very helpful. It is always good to see things from another s eyes. I am not as terribly bothered by toll houses now
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 13, 2008
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      Thank you very much. Your thoughts were very helpful. It is always good to see things from another's eyes. I am not as terribly bothered by toll houses now that I know they should be understood as a spiritual, figurative metaphor. I am glad that you shared the context in which Fr. Seraphim was writing - I can begin to understand where he was coming from in laying a heavy emphasis on the topic.

      Christopher, I don't know anything about the left and right within Orthodoxy. I did note that one of the main opponents is the former Archbishop Lazar of the OCA. But I also found a deacon who pretty fairly explains both sides and remains ambivalent as to his own thoughts, found here: http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2000/deathtoll.htm I have not yet come across or read anything written from ROCOR. I will look forward to reading the pages from Fr. Seraphim Rose.

      Pray for me.
      Love in Christ,
      phos

      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      From: stortford@...
      Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:16:40 -0800
      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville




















      The "tollhouses" are a pretty minor part of Orthodoxy. Extremely rarely mentioned in the fathers. Fr Seraphim Rose brought it up in a big way, because in the 60's and 70's he was seeing all this stuff in the popular media about near-death experiences suggesting everyone goes to heaven, no matter how debauched your life and what you believe, which fit in with the general prevailing popular notions of relativism and seeing all religions as basically the same. He pointed out that, to the contrary, we are all really truly judged when we die, our lives are examined, and whether they were pleasing to God or the devil.



      As for the "aerial tollhouses" themselves (as the Jordanville Prayer Book has it), they seem to lend themselves to a figurative understanding, not something to be taken in a literal physical spacial sense.



      Yes, the angels play a role in executing God's justice, as Scripture informs us; but they only do what He commands (for the angels) or allows (the demons). The demons always accuse us, the angels, the "ministering spirits" come to our aid.



      This is why there isn't much in the fathers about the tollhouses; it's simply an elaboration on how the judgement of God takes place. I think it's good to know that the demons will indeed be accusing us....but we don't need to be concerned with wooden shacks and gates. Our souls aren't material in that way....and God is in control of it all. He doesn't allow any devils to sneak us off when He's not looking.



      I used to have a problem with the tollhouses, but once I began to see that the concept is more a figurative elaboration on what our minds can't really grasp, it didn't bother me.



      Hope this helps---



      R.



      ________________________________

      From: "phos_hilarion@..." <phos_hilarion@...>

      To: LLE <lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com>

      Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:12:49 PM

      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville



      Greetings all.



      I've prayed the Canon to the Guardian Angel - found on Myribiblios. net, if I remember rightly. Now that I have the Jordanville, I notice that it is mostly the same. However the last prayer is different in the Jordanville. What concerns me is this quote from the Jordanville: "when I shall pass through the aerial tollhouses". I know that aerial tollhouses are considered controversial in the Orthodox church. Some think it is within the tradition of the church while others say that it is gnostic and has no evidence or support in the Bible. So having already prayed a canon to the guardian angel where any hint of passing through toll houses was never present, I was surprised to find it in the Jordanville. If this topic is controversial, why is it in a common prayerbook?



      Please, any insight you can give in this matter would be helpful. I have already done some reading on the topic via Orthowiki and I'm inclined to disbelieve toll houses. What then about this prayer? Don't pray it? And I don't like the implications of that. Picking and choosing what one likes best is too much like current Lutheranism. I am fully aware that I may not be understanding this topic in it's correct light as, in the past, I have not perfectly understood every Orthodox thought on first examination.



      I am at a loss. Please enlighten me.



      Love in Christ,

      your little phos



      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

      Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.

      http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ acq_speed_ 122008



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    • Rebecca Wilson
      Dear Randall,   I usually just read the postings but I wanted to express my appreciation for your non-hysterical explanation/understanding of the
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 13, 2008
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        Dear Randall,
         
        I usually just read the postings but I wanted to express my appreciation for your non-hysterical explanation/understanding of the "tollhouses" which is such an obscure and, I think, esoteric idea of the end of our lives.  With the discovery and popularity of the writings of Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose (many of those writings were in answer to specific questions


        --- On Sat, 12/13/08, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:

        From: randall hay <stortford@...>
        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 12:16 AM






        The "tollhouses" are a pretty minor part of Orthodoxy. Extremely rarely mentioned in the fathers. Fr Seraphim Rose brought it up in a big way, because in the 60's and 70's he was seeing all this stuff in the popular media about near-death experiences suggesting everyone goes to heaven, no matter how debauched your life and what you believe, which fit in with the general prevailing popular notions of relativism and seeing all religions as basically the same. He pointed out that, to the contrary, we are all really truly judged when we die, our lives are examined, and whether they were pleasing to God or the devil.

        As for the "aerial tollhouses" themselves (as the Jordanville Prayer Book has it), they seem to lend themselves to a figurative understanding, not something to be taken in a literal physical spacial sense.

        Yes, the angels play a role in executing God's justice, as Scripture informs us; but they only do what He commands (for the angels) or allows (the demons). The demons always accuse us, the angels, the "ministering spirits" come to our aid.

        This is why there isn't much in the fathers about the tollhouses; it's simply an elaboration on how the judgement of God takes place. I think it's good to know that the demons will indeed be accusing us....but we don't need to be concerned with wooden shacks and gates. Our souls aren't material in that way....and God is in control of it all. He doesn't allow any devils to sneak us off when He's not looking.

        I used to have a problem with the tollhouses, but once I began to see that the concept is more a figurative elaboration on what our minds can't really grasp, it didn't bother me.

        Hope this helps---

        R.

        ____________ _________ _________ __
        From: "phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com" <phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com>
        To: LLE <lutheranslookingeas t@yahoogroups. com>
        Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:12:49 PM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville

        Greetings all.

        I've prayed the Canon to the Guardian Angel - found on Myribiblios. net, if I remember rightly. Now that I have the Jordanville, I notice that it is mostly the same. However the last prayer is different in the Jordanville. What concerns me is this quote from the Jordanville: "when I shall pass through the aerial tollhouses". I know that aerial tollhouses are considered controversial in the Orthodox church. Some think it is within the tradition of the church while others say that it is gnostic and has no evidence or support in the Bible. So having already prayed a canon to the guardian angel where any hint of passing through toll houses was never present, I was surprised to find it in the Jordanville. If this topic is controversial, why is it in a common prayerbook?

        Please, any insight you can give in this matter would be helpful. I have already done some reading on the topic via Orthowiki and I'm inclined to disbelieve toll houses. What then about this prayer? Don't pray it? And I don't like the implications of that. Picking and choosing what one likes best is too much like current Lutheranism. I am fully aware that I may not be understanding this topic in it's correct light as, in the past, I have not perfectly understood every Orthodox thought on first examination.

        I am at a loss. Please enlighten me.

        Love in Christ,
        your little phos

        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
        http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ acq_speed_ 122008

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • randall hay
        Rebecca, glad I could help! Incidentally, I came across an interesting bit in St. John Chrysostom about the role of angels in judgement. Commenting on the
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 13, 2008
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          Rebecca, glad I could help!

          Incidentally, I came across an interesting bit in St. John Chrysostom about the role of angels in judgement. Commenting on the parable of the sower in Matthew, he says:

          "Mark [Jesus's] unspeakable love to man and His leaning to bounty, and His disinclination to punishment; in that, when He sows, He sows in His own person, but when He punishes, it is by others, that is, by the angels." (PNF p. 293)

          In Christ,

          R.








          ________________________________
          From: Rebecca Wilson <emmy88heaven@...>
          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 8:08:45 PM
          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville


          Dear Randall,

          I usually just read the postings but I wanted to express my appreciation for your non-hysterical explanation/ understanding of the "tollhouses" which is such an obscure and, I think, esoteric idea of the end of our lives. With the discovery and popularity of the writings of Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose (many of those writings were in answer to specific questions

          --- On Sat, 12/13/08, randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net> wrote:

          From: randall hay <stortford@sbcglobal .net>
          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville
          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
          Date: Saturday, December 13, 2008, 12:16 AM

          The "tollhouses" are a pretty minor part of Orthodoxy. Extremely rarely mentioned in the fathers. Fr Seraphim Rose brought it up in a big way, because in the 60's and 70's he was seeing all this stuff in the popular media about near-death experiences suggesting everyone goes to heaven, no matter how debauched your life and what you believe, which fit in with the general prevailing popular notions of relativism and seeing all religions as basically the same. He pointed out that, to the contrary, we are all really truly judged when we die, our lives are examined, and whether they were pleasing to God or the devil.

          As for the "aerial tollhouses" themselves (as the Jordanville Prayer Book has it), they seem to lend themselves to a figurative understanding, not something to be taken in a literal physical spacial sense.

          Yes, the angels play a role in executing God's justice, as Scripture informs us; but they only do what He commands (for the angels) or allows (the demons). The demons always accuse us, the angels, the "ministering spirits" come to our aid.

          This is why there isn't much in the fathers about the tollhouses; it's simply an elaboration on how the judgement of God takes place. I think it's good to know that the demons will indeed be accusing us....but we don't need to be concerned with wooden shacks and gates. Our souls aren't material in that way....and God is in control of it all. He doesn't allow any devils to sneak us off when He's not looking.

          I used to have a problem with the tollhouses, but once I began to see that the concept is more a figurative elaboration on what our minds can't really grasp, it didn't bother me.

          Hope this helps---

          R.

          ____________ _________ _________ __
          From: "phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com" <phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com>
          To: LLE <lutheranslookingea s t@yahoogroups. com>
          Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:12:49 PM
          Subject: [LutheransLookingEa st] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville

          Greetings all.

          I've prayed the Canon to the Guardian Angel - found on Myribiblios. net, if I remember rightly. Now that I have the Jordanville, I notice that it is mostly the same. However the last prayer is different in the Jordanville. What concerns me is this quote from the Jordanville: "when I shall pass through the aerial tollhouses". I know that aerial tollhouses are considered controversial in the Orthodox church. Some think it is within the tradition of the church while others say that it is gnostic and has no evidence or support in the Bible. So having already prayed a canon to the guardian angel where any hint of passing through toll houses was never present, I was surprised to find it in the Jordanville. If this topic is controversial, why is it in a common prayerbook?

          Please, any insight you can give in this matter would be helpful. I have already done some reading on the topic via Orthowiki and I'm inclined to disbelieve toll houses. What then about this prayer? Don't pray it? And I don't like the implications of that. Picking and choosing what one likes best is too much like current Lutheranism. I am fully aware that I may not be understanding this topic in it's correct light as, in the past, I have not perfectly understood every Orthodox thought on first examination.

          I am at a loss. Please enlighten me.

          Love in Christ,
          your little phos

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.
          http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ acq_speed_ 122008

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • randall hay
          Glad my comments were helpful! I came across an interesting bit by St John Chrysostom on the role of angels, that I included in response to Rebecca.... In
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 13, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Glad my comments were helpful!

            I came across an interesting bit by St John Chrysostom on the role of angels, that I included in response to Rebecca....

            In Christ,

            R.





            ________________________________
            From: "phos_hilarion@..." <phos_hilarion@...>
            To: LLE <lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:23:04 AM
            Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville


            Thank you very much. Your thoughts were very helpful. It is always good to see things from another's eyes. I am not as terribly bothered by toll houses now that I know they should be understood as a spiritual, figurative metaphor. I am glad that you shared the context in which Fr. Seraphim was writing - I can begin to understand where he was coming from in laying a heavy emphasis on the topic.

            Christopher, I don't know anything about the left and right within Orthodoxy. I did note that one of the main opponents is the former Archbishop Lazar of the OCA. But I also found a deacon who pretty fairly explains both sides and remains ambivalent as to his own thoughts, found here: http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/evangelist/2000/deathtoll.htm I have not yet come across or read anything written from ROCOR. I will look forward to reading the pages from Fr. Seraphim Rose.

            Pray for me.
            Love in Christ,
            phos

            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            From: stortford@...
            Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 21:16:40 -0800
            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville




















            The "tollhouses" are a pretty minor part of Orthodoxy. Extremely rarely mentioned in the fathers. Fr Seraphim Rose brought it up in a big way, because in the 60's and 70's he was seeing all this stuff in the popular media about near-death experiences suggesting everyone goes to heaven, no matter how debauched your life and what you believe, which fit in with the general prevailing popular notions of relativism and seeing all religions as basically the same. He pointed out that, to the contrary, we are all really truly judged when we die, our lives are examined, and whether they were pleasing to God or the devil.



            As for the "aerial tollhouses" themselves (as the Jordanville Prayer Book has it), they seem to lend themselves to a figurative understanding, not something to be taken in a literal physical spacial sense.



            Yes, the angels play a role in executing God's justice, as Scripture informs us; but they only do what He commands (for the angels) or allows (the demons). The demons always accuse us, the angels, the "ministering spirits" come to our aid.



            This is why there isn't much in the fathers about the tollhouses; it's simply an elaboration on how the judgement of God takes place. I think it's good to know that the demons will indeed be accusing us....but we don't need to be concerned with wooden shacks and gates. Our souls aren't material in that way....and God is in control of it all. He doesn't allow any devils to sneak us off when He's not looking.



            I used to have a problem with the tollhouses, but once I began to see that the concept is more a figurative elaboration on what our minds can't really grasp, it didn't bother me.



            Hope this helps---



            R.



            ________________________________

            From: "phos_hilarion@..." <phos_hilarion@...>

            To: LLE <lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com>

            Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 6:12:49 PM

            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Aerial Tollhouse in the Jordanville



            Greetings all.



            I've prayed the Canon to the Guardian Angel - found on Myribiblios. net, if I remember rightly. Now that I have the Jordanville, I notice that it is mostly the same. However the last prayer is different in the Jordanville. What concerns me is this quote from the Jordanville: "when I shall pass through the aerial tollhouses". I know that aerial tollhouses are considered controversial in the Orthodox church. Some think it is within the tradition of the church while others say that it is gnostic and has no evidence or support in the Bible. So having already prayed a canon to the guardian angel where any hint of passing through toll houses was never present, I was surprised to find it in the Jordanville. If this topic is controversial, why is it in a common prayerbook?



            Please, any insight you can give in this matter would be helpful. I have already done some reading on the topic via Orthowiki and I'm inclined to disbelieve toll houses. What then about this prayer? Don't pray it? And I don't like the implications of that. Picking and choosing what one likes best is too much like current Lutheranism. I am fully aware that I may not be understanding this topic in it's correct light as, in the past, I have not perfectly understood every Orthodox thought on first examination.



            I am at a loss. Please enlighten me.



            Love in Christ,

            your little phos



            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

            Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills.

            http://windowslive. com/Explore/ hotmail?ocid= TXT_TAGLM_ WL_hotmail_ acq_speed_ 122008



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















            _________________________________________________________________
            Suspicious message? There�s an alert for that.
            http://windowslive.com/Explore/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad2_122008

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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