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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] "We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet"

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  • Anastasia Theodoridis
    Thanks,Christopher, for posting all this wealth of info. I hope I get time to read it, somewhere along the way. How about presenting short snippets of
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 26, 2007
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      Thanks,Christopher, for posting all this wealth of info. I hope I get time to read it, somewhere along the way. How about presenting short snippets of things we can all sink our teeth into?

      love in Christ,
      Anastasia

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Christopher Orr
      Sorry, I just wanted to give some things to act as jumping off points for questions people might have. I also wanted to start the list off with true content.
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 26, 2007
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        Sorry, I just wanted to give some things to act as jumping off points for
        questions people might have. I also wanted to start the list off with true
        content.

        I wrote, or collated, these documents specifically to answer (or put into
        words) questions I had regarding Orthodoxy - either before or after I was
        received into the Church. I will try to summarize some questions out of
        them. I'd love to hear what questions others might take out of them that
        might be of interest to those coming from a Lutheran paradigm.

        "We make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet" is an
        answer to patristic citations that seem to support the contention that sola
        Scriptura was the norm for the Fathers. A quick look at the post I made
        regarding how these same Fathers spoke about the authority of Tradition in
        addition to or alongside of Scripture should disavow one of this misreading
        of the Fathers, but... the essence of my point regarding the Fathers' way
        of pointing to "scripture alone" is very different than its Protestant
        namesake. The Fathers usually read the Scriptures in typological and
        allegorical ways. So, St. Cyril of Jerusalem can say that we must base our
        faith and practice on the Scriptures alone, and then teach all sorts of
        things that a Protestant would never find in the Scriptures. The example I
        refer to is his explication, in the same text that he talks about the proper
        role of Scripture, of the rites of initiation into the Church, which require
        anointings, excorcisms and chrismation - and which are not 'in the Bible' if
        one reads it literally.

        My challenge is: how can we begin to see all that the Fathers saw in
        Scripture? If we are going to use a given Father's methodology of finding
        the whole faith in the Bible, then we must find where in the Bible they
        found practices that we often miss (invocation of the saints, chrismation,
        ordination, anointing of the sick, veneration of icons and relics, etc.).
        You can't appeal to an authority and their 'rule', and then disavow what
        they found consistent with that rule.

        Christopher


        On 2/26/07, Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
        >
        > Thanks,Christopher, for posting all this wealth of info. I hope I get
        > time to read it, somewhere along the way. How about presenting short
        > snippets of things we can all sink our teeth into?
        >
        > love in Christ,
        > Anastasia
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • herrdave2_prime
        Yes, that s true. We thus have canons harmonized with Paul s admonishing to avoid those who cause divisions.
        Message 3 of 5 , Apr 17 6:56 PM
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          Yes, that's true. We thus have canons harmonized with Paul's admonishing to avoid those who cause divisions.

          >The Fathers usually read the Scriptures in typological and
          > allegorical ways. So, St. Cyril of Jerusalem can say that we must base our
          > faith and practice on the Scriptures alone, and then teach all sorts of
          > things that a Protestant would never find in the Scriptures. The example I
          > refer to is his explication, in the same text that he talks about the proper
          > role of Scripture, of the rites of initiation into the Church, which require
          > anointings, excorcisms and chrismation - and which are not 'in the Bible' if
          > one reads it literally.
          >
          > My challenge is: how can we begin to see all that the Fathers saw in
          >consistent with that rule.


          >
        • krolechka
          Christ is risen! ... I d say, same way as the Fathers started. I m sure, they did not see the same things in the Scripture that other Fathers saw before them.
          Message 4 of 5 , Apr 18 6:49 AM
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            Christ is risen!

            --- "Christopher Orr" <xcjorr@...> wrote:
            > My challenge is: how can we begin to see all that the Fathers saw in
            > Scripture?

            I'd say, same way as the Fathers started. I'm sure, they did not see
            the same things in the Scripture that other Fathers saw before them.
            But they read on just TRYING to see those things, and then they read
            the previous Fathers thoughts and accepted them. Little by little,
            after years or decades they started to see more and more. I think,
            that's how it was. Two things are involved to see more of divine
            wisdom: cleansing the soul from the passions (cleanness of the heart
            is required) and keeping reading (practice required).

            I think, the Fathers' way is not complicated to undestand. While it
            takes God's grace and time to achieve anything, the journey is all
            planned, we just have to look at how Fathers did it, and then we go
            and try not to divert from it.
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