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RE: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"

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  • Brian Fink
    Shhhhh..... you weren t supposed to see that. We re trying to keep that all under wraps. The impact that it would have on the Lutherans would be... well...
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 19, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Shhhhh..... you weren't supposed to see that. We're trying to keep that all under wraps. The impact that it would have on the Lutherans would be... well... too much for you all to handle... :-P

      Chrysostom

      Randy Asburry <r.asburry@...> wrote:
      Perhaps one of our Orthodox friends might try to weigh in on that discussion
      with the following excerpt (following my signature line) from Fr. Thomas
      Hopko's little books on "The Orthodox Faith" (online source:
      http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2
      <http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=20> &ID=20 )? It sure seems, at
      least to this Lutheran, to overflow with both Gospel and atonement talk. The
      challenge, of course, is in getting Lutherans to realize that, yes, other
      Christians can and do properly hold to the Atonement.after all, that would
      require some intellectual integrity and honesty! ;-)

      + + + + +
      Rev. Randy Asburry
      Hope Lutheran Church
      St. Louis, MO
      <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

      "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
      conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
      Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

      From Fr. Hopko:

      Jesus, the Reconciler of Man with God

      The second aspect of Christ's one, indivisible act of salvation of man and
      his world is the accomplishment of man's reconciliation with God the Father
      through the forgiveness of sins. This is the redemption and atonement
      strictly speaking, the release from sins, and the punishment due to sins;
      the being made "at one" with God.

      While we were yet helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
      Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man -- though perhaps for a good
      man one will dare even to die. But God shows His love for us in that while
      we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Since therefore we are now made
      righteous by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of
      God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of
      His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His
      life. Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
      through whom we have now received our reconciliation (Rom 5:6-11).

      Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed
      away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ
      reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that
      is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their
      trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation
      (2 Cor 5:17-19).

      The forgiveness of sins is one of the signs of the coming of the Christ, the
      Messiah, as foretold in the Old Testament:

      ... they shall all know me, from the least to the greatest, says the Lord;
      for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
      (Jer 31:34).

      Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, the Lamb
      that is slain that through Him all sins might be forgiven. He is also the
      great high priest, who offers the perfect sacrifice by which man is purged
      from his sins and cleansed from his iniquities. Jesus offers, as high
      priest, the perfect sacrifice of His own very life, His own body, as the
      Lamb of God, upon the tree of the cross.

      For to this you have been called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving
      you an example that you should follow in His steps. He committed no sin; no
      guile was found on His lips. When He was reviled, He did not revile in
      return; when He suffered, He did not threaten; but He trusted to Him who
      judges justly. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we
      might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been
      healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the
      Pastor and Bishop of your souls (1 Pet 2:22-25).

      The high-priestly offering and sacrifice of the Son of God to His eternal
      Father is described in great detail in the Letter to the Hebrews in the New
      Testament scriptures.

      In the days of His flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with
      loud cries and tears, to Him who was able to save Him from death, and He was
      heard for His godly fear. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience
      through what He suffered, and being made perfect, He became the source of
      eternal salvation to all who obey Him, being designated a high priest by
      God, according to the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:7-10).

      But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come
      ... He entered once for all into the Holy Place [not made by hands, i.e.,
      the Presence of God] taking ... His own blood, thus securing an eternal
      redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats
      and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of
      the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal
      Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from
      dead works to serve the living God. Therefore, He is the mediator of a new
      covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal
      inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the
      transgressions under the first covenant (Heb 9:11-15).

      According to the scriptures, man's sins and the sins of the whole world are
      forgiven and pardoned by the sacrifice of Christ, by the offering of His
      life -- His body and His blood, which is the "blood of God" (Acts 20:28) --
      upon the cross. This is the "redemption," the "ransom," the "expiation," the
      "propitiation" spoken about in the scriptures which had to be made so that
      man could be "at one" with God. Christ "paid the price" which was necessary
      to be paid for the world to be pardoned and cleansed of all iniquities and
      sins (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23).

      In the history of Christian doctrine there has been great debate over the
      question of to whom Christ "pays the price" for the ransom of the world and
      the salvation of mankind. Some have said that the "payment" was made to the
      devil. This is the view that the devil received certain "rights" over man
      and his world because of man's sin. In his rebellion against God, man "sold
      himself to the devil" thus allowing the Evil One to become the "prince of
      this world" (Jn 12:31). Christ comes to pay the debt to the devil and to
      release man from his control by sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

      Others say that Christ's "payment" on behalf of man had to be made to God
      the Father. This is the view which interprets Christ's sacrificial death on
      the cross as the proper punishment that had to be paid to satisfy God's
      wrath over the human race. God was insulted by man's sin. His law was broken
      and His righteousness was offended. Man had to pay the penalty for his sin
      by offering the proper punishment. But no amount of human punishment could
      satisfy God's justice because God's justice is divine. Thus the Son of God
      had to be born into the world and receive the punishment that was rightly to
      be placed on men. He had to die in order for God to receive proper
      satisfaction for man's offenses against Him. Christ substituted Himself on
      our behalf and died for our sins, offering His blood as the satisfying
      sacrifice for the sins of the world. By dying on the cross in place of
      sinful man, Christ pays the full and total payment for man's sins. God's
      wrath is removed. Man's insult is punished. The world is reconciled with its
      Creator.

      Commenting on this question about to whom Christ "pays the price" for man's
      salvation, St. Gregory the Theologian in the fourth century wrote the
      following in his second Easter Oration:

      Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but
      in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To whom was that Blood offered
      that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous
      Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice.

      We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving
      pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him
      who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause?

      If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not
      only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an
      illustrious payment for his tyranny, then it would have been right for him
      to have left us alone altogether!

      But if to God the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we
      were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His
      only-begotten Son delight the Father, who would not receive even Isaac, when
      he was being sacrificed by his father, [Abraham,] but changed the sacrifice
      by putting a ram in the place of the human victim? (See Gen 22).

      Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor
      demanded Him; but on account of the incarnation, and because Humanity must
      be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and
      overcome the tyrant (i.e., the devil) and draw us to Himself by the
      mediation of His Son who also arranged this to the honor of the Father, whom
      it is manifest He obeys in all things.

      In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of "payment"
      and "ransom" is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of
      saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind
      enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He "paid
      the price," not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He
      "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit
      and tyranny. He "paid the price" not to God the Father in the sense that God
      delights in His sufferings and received "satisfaction" from His creatures in
      Him. He "paid the price" rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He "paid
      the price" to create the conditions in and through which man might receive
      the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to
      newness of life (See Rom 5-8; Gal 2-4).

      By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the
      world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil "in his own territory" and on
      "his own terms." The "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). So the Son of God
      became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary
      death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free
      will -- and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity -- He made death
      to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal. This
      is what the Church sings on the feast of the Resurrection, the New Passover
      in Christ, the new Paschal Lamb, who is risen from the dead:

      Christ is risen from the dead!
      Trampling down death by death!
      And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
      (Easter Troparion)

      _____

      From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
      Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:19 PM
      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"

      "The Gospel without the
      Atonement?"<http://cranach.
      <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.ht
      ml> worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.html>is
      a very interesting discussion at Cranach
      <http://cranach. <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/> worldmagblog.com/>about
      whether there can be a Gospel
      without the Atonement. Atonement and satisfaction are central themes in the
      spectrum of doctrines associated with Protestantism, Anslem, scholasticism
      and "The West", in general. A follow-up to this discussion is "Justification
      & the 'new perspective on
      Paul'"<http://cranach.
      <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.ht
      ml> worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.html>.
      Chaz and Pastor Paul McCain give the standard Confessional Lutheran answers
      to the discussion, but do they satisfactorily meet the critiques by NT
      Wright and what some see as an absence of proof for these (Protestant,
      Anselmian, Scholastic) doctrines in the writings of the first 1200-1500
      years of Church history.

      As my one comment said, quoting Fr. Stephen Freeman: Is there a difference
      between Substitution and Satisfaction? To what extent does Orthodoxy - and
      patristic theology, as I, personally, see them as being the same - share in
      a Substitutionary model? Lossky admits that there is forensic language in
      the Orthodox and patristic views of salvation, but in what way(s) is this
      different than the Roman Catholic and Protestant views of the Atonement,
      Satisfaction, etc. How do Orthodox view the terms propitiation and expiation
      in ways different than did Anselm, Protestants, etc.?

      Christopher

      http://orrologion.
      <http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html>
      blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Randy Asburry
      Ah, thank you so much for the admission! ;-) (Admission of what? That you re trying to keep that all under wraps, or that the Atonement is certainly there?
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 20, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Ah, thank you so much for the admission! ;-)



        (Admission of what? That you're "trying to keep that all under wraps," or
        that the Atonement is certainly there? Let the reader beware! ;-)



        + + + + +
        Rev. Randy Asburry
        Hope Lutheran Church
        St. Louis, MO
        <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

        "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
        conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
        Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



        _____

        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
        Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:39 PM
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"



        Shhhhh..... you weren't supposed to see that. We're trying to keep that all
        under wraps. The impact that it would have on the Lutherans would be...
        well... too much for you all to handle... :-P

        Chrysostom

        Randy Asburry <r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net>
        wrote:
        Perhaps one of our Orthodox friends might try to weigh in on that discussion
        with the following excerpt (following my signature line) from Fr. Thomas
        Hopko's little books on "The Orthodox Faith" (online source:
        http://www.oca. <http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2>
        org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2
        <http://www.oca. <http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=20>
        org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=20> &ID=20 )? It sure seems, at
        least to this Lutheran, to overflow with both Gospel and atonement talk. The
        challenge, of course, is in getting Lutherans to realize that, yes, other
        Christians can and do properly hold to the Atonement.after all, that would
        require some intellectual integrity and honesty! ;-)

        + + + + +
        Rev. Randy Asburry
        Hope Lutheran Church
        St. Louis, MO
        <mailto:r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net>
        mailto:r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net

        "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
        conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
        Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

        From Fr. Hopko:

        Jesus, the Reconciler of Man with God

        The second aspect of Christ's one, indivisible act of salvation of man and
        his world is the accomplishment of man's reconciliation with God the Father
        through the forgiveness of sins. This is the redemption and atonement
        strictly speaking, the release from sins, and the punishment due to sins;
        the being made "at one" with God.

        While we were yet helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
        Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man -- though perhaps for a good
        man one will dare even to die. But God shows His love for us in that while
        we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Since therefore we are now made
        righteous by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of
        God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of
        His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His
        life. Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
        through whom we have now received our reconciliation (Rom 5:6-11).

        Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed
        away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ
        reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that
        is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their
        trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation
        (2 Cor 5:17-19).

        The forgiveness of sins is one of the signs of the coming of the Christ, the
        Messiah, as foretold in the Old Testament:

        ... they shall all know me, from the least to the greatest, says the Lord;
        for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
        (Jer 31:34).

        Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, the Lamb
        that is slain that through Him all sins might be forgiven. He is also the
        great high priest, who offers the perfect sacrifice by which man is purged
        from his sins and cleansed from his iniquities. Jesus offers, as high
        priest, the perfect sacrifice of His own very life, His own body, as the
        Lamb of God, upon the tree of the cross.

        For to this you have been called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving
        you an example that you should follow in His steps. He committed no sin; no
        guile was found on His lips. When He was reviled, He did not revile in
        return; when He suffered, He did not threaten; but He trusted to Him who
        judges justly. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we
        might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been
        healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the
        Pastor and Bishop of your souls (1 Pet 2:22-25).

        The high-priestly offering and sacrifice of the Son of God to His eternal
        Father is described in great detail in the Letter to the Hebrews in the New
        Testament scriptures.

        In the days of His flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with
        loud cries and tears, to Him who was able to save Him from death, and He was
        heard for His godly fear. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience
        through what He suffered, and being made perfect, He became the source of
        eternal salvation to all who obey Him, being designated a high priest by
        God, according to the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:7-10).

        But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come
        ... He entered once for all into the Holy Place [not made by hands, i.e.,
        the Presence of God] taking ... His own blood, thus securing an eternal
        redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats
        and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of
        the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal
        Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from
        dead works to serve the living God. Therefore, He is the mediator of a new
        covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal
        inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the
        transgressions under the first covenant (Heb 9:11-15).

        According to the scriptures, man's sins and the sins of the whole world are
        forgiven and pardoned by the sacrifice of Christ, by the offering of His
        life -- His body and His blood, which is the "blood of God" (Acts 20:28) --
        upon the cross. This is the "redemption," the "ransom," the "expiation," the
        "propitiation" spoken about in the scriptures which had to be made so that
        man could be "at one" with God. Christ "paid the price" which was necessary
        to be paid for the world to be pardoned and cleansed of all iniquities and
        sins (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23).

        In the history of Christian doctrine there has been great debate over the
        question of to whom Christ "pays the price" for the ransom of the world and
        the salvation of mankind. Some have said that the "payment" was made to the
        devil. This is the view that the devil received certain "rights" over man
        and his world because of man's sin. In his rebellion against God, man "sold
        himself to the devil" thus allowing the Evil One to become the "prince of
        this world" (Jn 12:31). Christ comes to pay the debt to the devil and to
        release man from his control by sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

        Others say that Christ's "payment" on behalf of man had to be made to God
        the Father. This is the view which interprets Christ's sacrificial death on
        the cross as the proper punishment that had to be paid to satisfy God's
        wrath over the human race. God was insulted by man's sin. His law was broken
        and His righteousness was offended. Man had to pay the penalty for his sin
        by offering the proper punishment. But no amount of human punishment could
        satisfy God's justice because God's justice is divine. Thus the Son of God
        had to be born into the world and receive the punishment that was rightly to
        be placed on men. He had to die in order for God to receive proper
        satisfaction for man's offenses against Him. Christ substituted Himself on
        our behalf and died for our sins, offering His blood as the satisfying
        sacrifice for the sins of the world. By dying on the cross in place of
        sinful man, Christ pays the full and total payment for man's sins. God's
        wrath is removed. Man's insult is punished. The world is reconciled with its
        Creator.

        Commenting on this question about to whom Christ "pays the price" for man's
        salvation, St. Gregory the Theologian in the fourth century wrote the
        following in his second Easter Oration:

        Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but
        in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To whom was that Blood offered
        that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous
        Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice.

        We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving
        pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him
        who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause?

        If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not
        only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an
        illustrious payment for his tyranny, then it would have been right for him
        to have left us alone altogether!

        But if to God the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we
        were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His
        only-begotten Son delight the Father, who would not receive even Isaac, when
        he was being sacrificed by his father, [Abraham,] but changed the sacrifice
        by putting a ram in the place of the human victim? (See Gen 22).

        Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor
        demanded Him; but on account of the incarnation, and because Humanity must
        be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and
        overcome the tyrant (i.e., the devil) and draw us to Himself by the
        mediation of His Son who also arranged this to the honor of the Father, whom
        it is manifest He obeys in all things.

        In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of "payment"
        and "ransom" is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of
        saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind
        enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He "paid
        the price," not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He
        "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit
        and tyranny. He "paid the price" not to God the Father in the sense that God
        delights in His sufferings and received "satisfaction" from His creatures in
        Him. He "paid the price" rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He "paid
        the price" to create the conditions in and through which man might receive
        the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to
        newness of life (See Rom 5-8; Gal 2-4).

        By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the
        world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil "in his own territory" and on
        "his own terms." The "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). So the Son of God
        became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary
        death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free
        will -- and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity -- He made death
        to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal. This
        is what the Church sings on the feast of the Resurrection, the New Passover
        in Christ, the new Paschal Lamb, who is risen from the dead:

        Christ is risen from the dead!
        Trampling down death by death!
        And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
        (Easter Troparion)

        _____

        From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        t@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
        Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:19 PM
        To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
        t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"

        "The Gospel without the
        Atonement?"<http://cranach.
        <http://cranach.
        <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.ht
        > worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.ht
        ml> worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.html>is
        a very interesting discussion at Cranach
        <http://cranach. <http://cranach. <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/>
        worldmagblog.com/> worldmagblog.com/>about
        whether there can be a Gospel
        without the Atonement. Atonement and satisfaction are central themes in the
        spectrum of doctrines associated with Protestantism, Anslem, scholasticism
        and "The West", in general. A follow-up to this discussion is "Justification
        & the 'new perspective on
        Paul'"<http://cranach.
        <http://cranach.
        <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.ht
        > worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.ht
        ml> worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.html>.
        Chaz and Pastor Paul McCain give the standard Confessional Lutheran answers
        to the discussion, but do they satisfactorily meet the critiques by NT
        Wright and what some see as an absence of proof for these (Protestant,
        Anselmian, Scholastic) doctrines in the writings of the first 1200-1500
        years of Church history.

        As my one comment said, quoting Fr. Stephen Freeman: Is there a difference
        between Substitution and Satisfaction? To what extent does Orthodoxy - and
        patristic theology, as I, personally, see them as being the same - share in
        a Substitutionary model? Lossky admits that there is forensic language in
        the Orthodox and patristic views of salvation, but in what way(s) is this
        different than the Roman Catholic and Protestant views of the Atonement,
        Satisfaction, etc. How do Orthodox view the terms propitiation and expiation
        in ways different than did Anselm, Protestants, etc.?

        Christopher

        http://orrologion.
        <http://orrologion.
        <http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html>
        blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html>
        blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html

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      • Randy Asburry
        So, has anyone put that quote from Hopko out on a Lutheran blog to see what the response would be? (I just don t frequent blogs that much, and I m happy to
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 20, 2007
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          So, has anyone put that quote from Hopko out on a Lutheran blog to see what
          the response would be? (I just don't frequent blogs that much, and I'm happy
          to leave that - "blogdom," that is - to others who are so inclined.) I would
          be curious to hear about any responses.



          Randy

          + + + + +
          Rev. Randy Asburry
          Hope Lutheran Church
          St. Louis, MO
          <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

          "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
          conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
          Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



          _____

          From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
          Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:39 PM
          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"



          Shhhhh..... you weren't supposed to see that. We're trying to keep that all
          under wraps. The impact that it would have on the Lutherans would be...
          well... too much for you all to handle... :-P

          Chrysostom

          Randy Asburry <r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net>
          wrote:
          Perhaps one of our Orthodox friends might try to weigh in on that discussion
          with the following excerpt (following my signature line) from Fr. Thomas
          Hopko's little books on "The Orthodox Faith" (online source:
          http://www.oca. <http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2>
          org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2
          <http://www.oca. <http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=20>
          org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=20> &ID=20 )? It sure seems, at
          least to this Lutheran, to overflow with both Gospel and atonement talk. The
          challenge, of course, is in getting Lutherans to realize that, yes, other
          Christians can and do properly hold to the Atonement.after all, that would
          require some intellectual integrity and honesty! ;-)

          + + + + +
          Rev. Randy Asburry
          Hope Lutheran Church
          St. Louis, MO
          <mailto:r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net>
          mailto:r.asburry@sbcglobal <mailto:r.asburry%40sbcglobal.net> .net

          "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
          conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
          Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).

          From Fr. Hopko:

          Jesus, the Reconciler of Man with God

          The second aspect of Christ's one, indivisible act of salvation of man and
          his world is the accomplishment of man's reconciliation with God the Father
          through the forgiveness of sins. This is the redemption and atonement
          strictly speaking, the release from sins, and the punishment due to sins;
          the being made "at one" with God.

          While we were yet helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
          Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man -- though perhaps for a good
          man one will dare even to die. But God shows His love for us in that while
          we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Since therefore we are now made
          righteous by His blood, much more shall we be saved by Him from the wrath of
          God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of
          His Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His
          life. Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
          through whom we have now received our reconciliation (Rom 5:6-11).

          Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed
          away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ
          reconciled us to Himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that
          is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their
          trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation
          (2 Cor 5:17-19).

          The forgiveness of sins is one of the signs of the coming of the Christ, the
          Messiah, as foretold in the Old Testament:

          ... they shall all know me, from the least to the greatest, says the Lord;
          for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
          (Jer 31:34).

          Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, the Lamb
          that is slain that through Him all sins might be forgiven. He is also the
          great high priest, who offers the perfect sacrifice by which man is purged
          from his sins and cleansed from his iniquities. Jesus offers, as high
          priest, the perfect sacrifice of His own very life, His own body, as the
          Lamb of God, upon the tree of the cross.

          For to this you have been called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving
          you an example that you should follow in His steps. He committed no sin; no
          guile was found on His lips. When He was reviled, He did not revile in
          return; when He suffered, He did not threaten; but He trusted to Him who
          judges justly. He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we
          might die to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been
          healed. For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the
          Pastor and Bishop of your souls (1 Pet 2:22-25).

          The high-priestly offering and sacrifice of the Son of God to His eternal
          Father is described in great detail in the Letter to the Hebrews in the New
          Testament scriptures.

          In the days of His flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with
          loud cries and tears, to Him who was able to save Him from death, and He was
          heard for His godly fear. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience
          through what He suffered, and being made perfect, He became the source of
          eternal salvation to all who obey Him, being designated a high priest by
          God, according to the order of Melchizedek (Heb 5:7-10).

          But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come
          ... He entered once for all into the Holy Place [not made by hands, i.e.,
          the Presence of God] taking ... His own blood, thus securing an eternal
          redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats
          and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of
          the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal
          Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from
          dead works to serve the living God. Therefore, He is the mediator of a new
          covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal
          inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the
          transgressions under the first covenant (Heb 9:11-15).

          According to the scriptures, man's sins and the sins of the whole world are
          forgiven and pardoned by the sacrifice of Christ, by the offering of His
          life -- His body and His blood, which is the "blood of God" (Acts 20:28) --
          upon the cross. This is the "redemption," the "ransom," the "expiation," the
          "propitiation" spoken about in the scriptures which had to be made so that
          man could be "at one" with God. Christ "paid the price" which was necessary
          to be paid for the world to be pardoned and cleansed of all iniquities and
          sins (1 Cor 6:20; 7:23).

          In the history of Christian doctrine there has been great debate over the
          question of to whom Christ "pays the price" for the ransom of the world and
          the salvation of mankind. Some have said that the "payment" was made to the
          devil. This is the view that the devil received certain "rights" over man
          and his world because of man's sin. In his rebellion against God, man "sold
          himself to the devil" thus allowing the Evil One to become the "prince of
          this world" (Jn 12:31). Christ comes to pay the debt to the devil and to
          release man from his control by sacrificing Himself upon the cross.

          Others say that Christ's "payment" on behalf of man had to be made to God
          the Father. This is the view which interprets Christ's sacrificial death on
          the cross as the proper punishment that had to be paid to satisfy God's
          wrath over the human race. God was insulted by man's sin. His law was broken
          and His righteousness was offended. Man had to pay the penalty for his sin
          by offering the proper punishment. But no amount of human punishment could
          satisfy God's justice because God's justice is divine. Thus the Son of God
          had to be born into the world and receive the punishment that was rightly to
          be placed on men. He had to die in order for God to receive proper
          satisfaction for man's offenses against Him. Christ substituted Himself on
          our behalf and died for our sins, offering His blood as the satisfying
          sacrifice for the sins of the world. By dying on the cross in place of
          sinful man, Christ pays the full and total payment for man's sins. God's
          wrath is removed. Man's insult is punished. The world is reconciled with its
          Creator.

          Commenting on this question about to whom Christ "pays the price" for man's
          salvation, St. Gregory the Theologian in the fourth century wrote the
          following in his second Easter Oration:

          Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but
          in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To whom was that Blood offered
          that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous
          Blood of our God and High Priest and Sacrifice.

          We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving
          pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him
          who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause?

          If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not
          only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an
          illustrious payment for his tyranny, then it would have been right for him
          to have left us alone altogether!

          But if to God the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we
          were being oppressed. And next, on what principle did the Blood of His
          only-begotten Son delight the Father, who would not receive even Isaac, when
          he was being sacrificed by his father, [Abraham,] but changed the sacrifice
          by putting a ram in the place of the human victim? (See Gen 22).

          Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor
          demanded Him; but on account of the incarnation, and because Humanity must
          be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and
          overcome the tyrant (i.e., the devil) and draw us to Himself by the
          mediation of His Son who also arranged this to the honor of the Father, whom
          it is manifest He obeys in all things.

          In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of "payment"
          and "ransom" is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of
          saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind
          enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He "paid
          the price," not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He
          "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit
          and tyranny. He "paid the price" not to God the Father in the sense that God
          delights in His sufferings and received "satisfaction" from His creatures in
          Him. He "paid the price" rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He "paid
          the price" to create the conditions in and through which man might receive
          the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to
          newness of life (See Rom 5-8; Gal 2-4).

          By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the
          world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil "in his own territory" and on
          "his own terms." The "wages of sin is death" (Rom 6:23). So the Son of God
          became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary
          death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free
          will -- and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity -- He made death
          to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal. This
          is what the Church sings on the feast of the Resurrection, the New Passover
          in Christ, the new Paschal Lamb, who is risen from the dead:

          Christ is risen from the dead!
          Trampling down death by death!
          And upon those in the tombs bestowing life!
          (Easter Troparion)

          _____

          From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
          t@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
          t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
          Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2007 4:19 PM
          To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
          t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"

          "The Gospel without the
          Atonement?"<http://cranach.
          <http://cranach.
          <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.ht
          > worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.ht
          ml> worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/the_gospel_with.html>is
          a very interesting discussion at Cranach
          <http://cranach. <http://cranach. <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/>
          worldmagblog.com/> worldmagblog.com/>about
          whether there can be a Gospel
          without the Atonement. Atonement and satisfaction are central themes in the
          spectrum of doctrines associated with Protestantism, Anslem, scholasticism
          and "The West", in general. A follow-up to this discussion is "Justification
          & the 'new perspective on
          Paul'"<http://cranach.
          <http://cranach.
          <http://cranach.worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.ht
          > worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.ht
          ml> worldmagblog.com/cranach/archives/2007/04/draftn_t_wright.html>.
          Chaz and Pastor Paul McCain give the standard Confessional Lutheran answers
          to the discussion, but do they satisfactorily meet the critiques by NT
          Wright and what some see as an absence of proof for these (Protestant,
          Anselmian, Scholastic) doctrines in the writings of the first 1200-1500
          years of Church history.

          As my one comment said, quoting Fr. Stephen Freeman: Is there a difference
          between Substitution and Satisfaction? To what extent does Orthodoxy - and
          patristic theology, as I, personally, see them as being the same - share in
          a Substitutionary model? Lossky admits that there is forensic language in
          the Orthodox and patristic views of salvation, but in what way(s) is this
          different than the Roman Catholic and Protestant views of the Atonement,
          Satisfaction, etc. How do Orthodox view the terms propitiation and expiation
          in ways different than did Anselm, Protestants, etc.?

          Christopher

          http://orrologion.
          <http://orrologion.
          <http://orrologion.blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html>
          blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html>
          blogspot.com/2007/04/gospel-without-atonement.html

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        • Anastasia Theodoridis
          Dear Everyone, Pls. excuse my temporary absence from the discussion and add my family to your prayers. On Wednesday, my sister, Barbara, had surgery to remove
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 21, 2007
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            Dear Everyone,

            Pls. excuse my temporary absence from the discussion and add my family to your prayers. On Wednesday, my sister, Barbara, had surgery to remove a cancerous tumor from her spinal cord (7 months to the day after another malignant tumor was removed from her brain). And this evening, my father, David, had a small stroke.


            love to all,
            Anastasia
          • Randy Asburry
            Anastasia, You and your family are in my prayers! May our gracious Savior, the Good Shepherd of the sheep, keep you and yours in His tender care and keeping!
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 22, 2007
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              Anastasia,



              You and your family are in my prayers! May our gracious Savior, the Good
              Shepherd of the sheep, keep you and yours in His tender care and keeping!



              Randy

              + + + + +
              Rev. Randy Asburry
              Hope Lutheran Church
              St. Louis, MO
              <mailto:r.asburry@...> mailto:r.asburry@...

              "...we on our part shall not omit doing anything, in so far as God and
              conscience allow, that may serve the cause of Christian unity." (Augsburg
              Confession, Preface, 13; Tappert, 26).



              _____

              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
              Theodoridis
              Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 1:35 AM
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] "The Gospel without the Atonement?"



              Dear Everyone,

              Pls. excuse my temporary absence from the discussion and add my family to
              your prayers. On Wednesday, my sister, Barbara, had surgery to remove a
              cancerous tumor from her spinal cord (7 months to the day after another
              malignant tumor was removed from her brain). And this evening, my father,
              David, had a small stroke.

              love to all,
              Anastasia





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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