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Looking for a good compare/contrast between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy

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  • jfowl100
    I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs. Any suggestions? Thanks.
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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      I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
      and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.

      Any suggestions?

      Thanks.
    • Christopher Orr
      There isn t a single definitive text that does this. There are a number of texts that get at many of the differences and similarities, but were often written
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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        There isn't a single definitive text that does this. There are a number of
        texts that get at many of the differences and similarities, but were often
        written with other purposes in mind (e.g., ecumenical dialogue).

        I have links to a number of different online resources in the sidebar
        ("Orthodoxy for Lutherans) of my blog at:

        orrologion.blogspot.com

        Past Orthodox-Lutheran ecumenical meetings have produced books or agree
        statements. Many/most of these are out of print but may be available to you
        to borrow at a local library - to view, especially through a local seminary
        library.

        Here are some Lutheran-Orthodox agreed statements:

        http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lutortjointtext.html

        Here is some info from the ELCA on their joint statements with the Orthodox:

        http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Ecumenical-and-Inter-Religious-Relations/Bilateral-Conversations/Lutheran-Orthodox.aspx

        Other books would include:

        - Salvation in Christ: A Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue, Robert Tobias
        (Editor), John Meyendorff (Editor)
        - One with God: Salvation as Deification and Justification by Veli-Matti
        Karkkainen
        - Saarinen, *Faith and Holiness: Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue
        1959-1994 *(Göttingen:
        Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1997)
        - Heaven on Earth: A Lutheran-Orthodox Odyssey by Robert
        Tobias<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Robert%20Tobias>

        I haven't read most of the works not linked to on my blog, but they should
        be a fair place for one exploring to begin.

        A couple things to remember though. First, "Lutheran" can mean a lot of
        different things. What a representative of the ELCA or the LWF may say
        about the differences/similarities between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy had
        very little to do with what I as a WELS Lutheran believed. Second, no one,
        no commission, no respected scholar, etc. 'speaks for Orthodoxy'. There are
        kooks in high places in Orthodoxy as there are in any religion or field -
        so, being Dean of St. Vlad's or Jordanville, or Metropolitan of either
        Pergamum or Iasi doesn't necessarily mean you speak 'for Orthodoxy'; they
        basically speak for themselves alone. To paraphrase the renowned, late
        canon law expert (and the bishop who tonsured me Reader), Archbishop Peter
        (L'Huillier): "They are stupid. It is only their opinion. They know
        nothing." Over and against both the centralization of Roman Catholicism and
        the democratization of Protestantism, it is the Orthodox Church as a whole
        that must 'accept' anything 'new' (which is why nothing new is ever really
        accepted; getting the Orthodox to agree on something newer than the Palamite
        Councils n the 14th Century is like herding cats).

        Christopher



        On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:10 PM, jfowl100 <jfowl100@...> wrote:

        > I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
        > and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
        >
        > Any suggestions?
        >
        > Thanks.
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rosemarie Lieffring
        I am not sure this is what you are looking for but I found the correspondance between the Tubingen Lutherans and Patriach Jeremiah II which occurred between
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 21, 2008
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          I am not sure this is what you are looking for but I found the
          correspondance between the Tubingen Lutherans and Patriach Jeremiah II which
          occurred between 1573 and 1581 to be very revealing, especially when one
          considers that these exchanges took place right during the time the Book of
          Concord was published--so the Lutheranism therein had to pretty much
          represent original Lutheranism.

          What helped me in several instances was to read, not in order as written,
          but follow a single point across all the letters and then go to the next
          point and next.

          This correspondence can be found in the book, Augsburg and Constantinople,
          and was translated by Father George Mastrantonis. You can get it from
          Amazon or you can buy an airline ticket on a flight right after mine...I
          have already lost two copies by leaving them in airplanes! I surely hope
          somebody got some good out of them.-----R

          On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:10 PM, jfowl100 <jfowl100@...> wrote:

          > I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
          > and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
          >
          > Any suggestions?
          >
          > Thanks.
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeff Fowler
          Thanks for the list and links. ... From: Christopher Orr To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 9:48:32
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 22, 2008
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            Thanks for the list and links.



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...>
            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 9:48:32 PM
            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Looking for a good compare/contrast between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy


            There isn't a single definitive text that does this. There are a number of
            texts that get at many of the differences and similarities, but were often
            written with other purposes in mind (e.g., ecumenical dialogue).

            I have links to a number of different online resources in the sidebar
            ("Orthodoxy for Lutherans) of my blog at:

            orrologion.blogspot .com

            Past Orthodox-Lutheran ecumenical meetings have produced books or agree
            statements. Many/most of these are out of print but may be available to you
            to borrow at a local library - to view, especially through a local seminary
            library.

            Here are some Lutheran-Orthodox agreed statements:

            http://www.helsinki .fi/~risaarin/ lutortjointtext. html

            Here is some info from the ELCA on their joint statements with the Orthodox:

            http://www.elca org/Who-We- Are/Our-Three- Expressions/ Churchwide- Organization/ Ecumenical- and-Inter- Religious- Relations/ Bilateral- Conversations/ Lutheran- Orthodox. aspx

            Other books would include:

            - Salvation in Christ: A Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue, Robert Tobias
            (Editor), John Meyendorff (Editor)
            - One with God: Salvation as Deification and Justification by Veli-Matti
            Karkkainen
            - Saarinen, *Faith and Holiness: Lutheran-Orthodox Dialogue
            1959-1994 *(Göttingen:
            Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1997)
            - Heaven on Earth: A Lutheran-Orthodox Odyssey by Robert
            Tobias<http://www.amazon com/exec/ obidos/search- handle-url/ ref=ntt_athr_ dp_sr_1?% 5Fencoding= UTF8&search- type=ss&index= books&field- author=Robert% 20Tobias>

            I haven't read most of the works not linked to on my blog, but they should
            be a fair place for one exploring to begin.

            A couple things to remember though. First, "Lutheran" can mean a lot of
            different things. What a representative of the ELCA or the LWF may say
            about the differences/ similarities between Lutheranism and Orthodoxy had
            very little to do with what I as a WELS Lutheran believed.. Second, no one,
            no commission, no respected scholar, etc. 'speaks for Orthodoxy'. There are
            kooks in high places in Orthodoxy as there are in any religion or field -
            so, being Dean of St. Vlad's or Jordanville, or Metropolitan of either
            Pergamum or Iasi doesn't necessarily mean you speak 'for Orthodoxy'; they
            basically speak for themselves alone. To paraphrase the renowned, late
            canon law expert (and the bishop who tonsured me Reader), Archbishop Peter
            (L'Huillier) : "They are stupid. It is only their opinion. They know
            nothing." Over and against both the centralization of Roman Catholicism and
            the democratization of Protestantism, it is the Orthodox Church as a whole
            that must 'accept' anything 'new' (which is why nothing new is ever really
            accepted; getting the Orthodox to agree on something newer than the Palamite
            Councils n the 14th Century is like herding cats).

            Christopher

            On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:10 PM, jfowl100 <jfowl100@yahoo. com> wrote:

            > I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
            > and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
            >
            > Any suggestions?
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jeff Fowler
            Thanks. I will order the book. ... From: Rosemarie Lieffring To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 21,
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 22, 2008
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              Thanks. I will order the book.



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...>
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 10:04:22 PM
              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Looking for a good compare/contrast between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy


              I am not sure this is what you are looking for but I found the
              correspondance between the Tubingen Lutherans and Patriach Jeremiah II which
              occurred between 1573 and 1581 to be very revealing, especially when one
              considers that these exchanges took place right during the time the Book of
              Concord was published--so the Lutheranism therein had to pretty much
              represent original Lutheranism.

              What helped me in several instances was to read, not in order as written,
              but follow a single point across all the letters and then go to the next
              point and next.

              This correspondence can be found in the book, Augsburg and Constantinople,
              and was translated by Father George Mastrantonis. You can get it from
              Amazon or you can buy an airline ticket on a flight right after mine...I
              have already lost two copies by leaving them in airplanes! I surely hope
              somebody got some good out of them.-----R

              On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:10 PM, jfowl100 <jfowl100@yahoo. com> wrote:

              > I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
              > and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
              >
              > Any suggestions?
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Travis (Constantine) Stolz
              I suppose it depends on what you are looking for, which topics, etc.  Quite honestly, though, I have not found the comparativist approach to be all that
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 23, 2008
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                I suppose it depends on what you are looking for, which topics, etc.� Quite honestly, though,�I have not found the comparativist approach to be all that helpful.� You simply have�different mindsets, for want of a better word, between Orthodoxy and Lutheranism.� E.g., in After Nine Hundred Years, Congar writes: "The point is not exactly that [the Orthodox] do not have definitions; the point is rather that they do not need them, do not want them at all" (42).� I don't know, then, how helpful�such a book or article would be.

                Another problem, too, is that Luthererans very often imagine they can read the�Fathers, books on Orthodoxy, etc., and say, �We have this, too!�� I did just that for a long time until honesty compelled me to do otherwise.� Again, the comparativist approach is wanting.

                If you want to read something, read Lossky for the Orthodox "side."� For the Lutheran "side," well, I've been�outside Lutheran circles a bit too long to know what to suggest, although it seems to me one cannot go wrong with either the AC or the LC.� If you've truly been bitten by the bug, then I would recommend those works that focus on, say, ecclesiology and anthropology.

                I hope this helps.

                Travis (Constantine)���������

                _______________________
                Travis (Constantine) Stolz
                travis.stolz@...

                --- On Mon, 9/22/08, jfowl100 <jfowl100@...> wrote:

                From: jfowl100 <jfowl100@...>
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Looking for a good compare/contrast between Lutheranism and Eastern Orthodoxy
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, September 22, 2008, 12:10 AM






                I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
                and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.

                Any suggestions?

                Thanks.


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave @¿@¬
                ... You might just want to get a copy of an Orthodox Catechism and compare it to a Lutheran Catechism. Each has concise statements about specific
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 25, 2008
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                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "jfowl100" <jfowl100@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of comparing
                  > and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
                  >
                  > Any suggestions?
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >

                  You might just want to get a copy of an Orthodox Catechism and compare
                  it to a Lutheran Catechism.

                  Each has concise statements about specific issues/doctrines of the
                  faith.

                  Dave
                • Dave @¿@¬
                  ... ... comparing ... compare ... In my opinion: The reason why it may be so hard to compare and contrast may be because of the way the articles
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 26, 2008
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                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬
                    <dnaess@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "jfowl100"
                    <jfowl100@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I am looking for a book or article that does a good job of
                    comparing
                    > > and contrasting Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
                    > >
                    > > Any suggestions?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks.
                    > >
                    >
                    > You might just want to get a copy of an Orthodox Catechism and
                    compare
                    > it to a Lutheran Catechism.
                    >
                    > Each has concise statements about specific issues/doctrines of the
                    > faith.
                    >
                    > Dave
                    >
                    In my opinion: The reason why it may be so hard to "compare and
                    contrast" may be because of the way the "articles of faith" are
                    stated.

                    Lutherens have the Book of Concord and "that's the way it is."

                    Orthodoxy, on the other hand, says (in my experience) "as long as it
                    does not run contrary to the Bible, Councils and the Holy Fathers,
                    it is acceptable. Orthodoxy has a lot more leeway for different
                    experiences in "personal encounters with God" (The Apophatic Way.)


                    Dave
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