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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Just Joined

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  • Christopher Orr
    Beautifully put. I would add that the Incarnation has already made us one flesh with God. Christ s life was the full absorption of all aspects of our common
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 14, 2007
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      Beautifully put. I would add that the Incarnation has already made us one
      flesh with God. Christ's life was the full absorption of all aspects of our
      common human nature - even to the point of an innocent death. It is this
      union of our one common human nature with the one divine nature of the
      Trinity that has already raised us from the dead and placed us at the right
      hand of the Father along with the head of our race, the New Adam: Christ.

      I put this understanding in the same category with St. Maximus Confessor's
      doctrine - and accepted by an Ecumenical Council as well as Lutheran
      dogmatics - of the one nature for the one human nature. Our individual
      human wills are the result of the Fall and are somehow not fully 'real'.
      Perhaps others can speak in greater depth on St. Maximus' very difficult,
      deep theology.

      Christopher


      On 3/14/07, Laura <lfrizelle@...> wrote:
      >
      > The depth and centrality of communion between God and mankind created in
      > the
      > image and likeness of the Holy Trinity, each person unique, yet completely
      >
      > united in perfect love, and the vision of Christ and his Bride, the Church
      >
      > being united, even becoming one flesh eternally growing closer and closer
      > in
      > complete common unity for eternity in the most Holy Matrimony beyond
      > imagination....it is cosmic.
      >
      > For me as a Lutheran, to now see salvation in terms of restored and every
      > increasing intimate, loving communion with God and my neighbor both, I am
      > just blown away at how far beyond progressive sanctification the fullness
      > of
      > this vision goes!
      >
      > WOW!!
      >
      > Laura
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • herrdave2_prime
      Fr Fenton, How does one from the LCMS brand of Lutheranism deal with the new fuzzier version of truth coverting to Orthodoxy, when it is not the infallible
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 22, 2007
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        Fr Fenton,
        How does one from the LCMS brand of Lutheranism deal with the new fuzzier version of truth coverting to Orthodoxy, when it is not the infallible scriptures that guide all doctrine and practice, but oral tradition that has so many variants, especially today when many Orthodox endorse practice and beliefs not seen prior to the time of Darwin? For example, Seraphim Rose opposes theistic evolution and the monks of Athos have codemned the Ecumenical Patriarch's worship with the heretic Pope of Rome. Many LCMS would agree with these views, however they seem to be frige views in Orthodoxy. I recall that the Orthodox consider scripture as part of tradition and that tradition is the rudder, but if scripture indeed has error, then by definition, tradition has also erred.




        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <jwfenton@...> wrote:
        >
        > Welcome, Sal, to the list! And thanks for the intro.
        >
        >
        >
        > Not all of us journeyed to Athens, or even Constantinople. Some of us
        > journeyed to Antioch <http://www.antiochian.org/> . :-)
        >
        >
        >
        > To answer your question about justifying (nice word choice :-)) this journey
        > with the concepts of Sola Gratia and Sola Fide, let me offer a few brief
        > thoughts and then a question.
        >
        >
        >
        > Brief Comment
        >
        >
        >
        > The word sola gratia generally indicates that one is brought to and
        > maintained in salvation solely by God's grace. The Orthodox liturgy, both in
        > its Byzantine and Western rites, steadfastly prays for the Lord's mercy. And
        > throughout her various liturgical texts, the Orthodox Church teaches that
        > all we are and all we have depends on God's grace and mercy. However, "grace
        > doesn't jump on us and paralyze us so we can do nothing and not respond" (as
        > my Dean is fond of saying). Rather, the Orthodox liturgy firmly professes
        > that the grace of God is freely given-and so is freely received. This
        > reception, however, ought not to be considered in the sense of Arminianism,
        > but rather according to the story of the Annunciation. The holy archangel
        > Gabriel declares, "The Lord [is] with you," not "the Lord will come to you
        > once you meet certain conditions." Yet the Lord's grace is so gracious that
        > it kindly awaits the most pure Virgin to give her fiat mihi. Keeping that
        > story uppermost in mind is, for me, most helpful in maintaining a proper
        > understanding of sola gratia.
        >
        >
        >
        > Question
        >
        >
        >
        > I know what most Lutherans popularly mean by sola fide; namely, that one is
        > saved (i.e., converted, or brought from the state of pagan to Christian) by
        > faith alone and not by any works or deeds. However, I also am aware that
        > some Lutherans view sola fide as applying to the realm of sanctification (as
        > this is distinguished from justification). In other words, that one's
        > remaining in a state of grace depends on faith and not on works. Before
        > offering an answer, then, I guess I need further clarification on which
        > understanding (or perhaps another) you have concerning sola fide.
        >
        >
        >
        > Again, thanks for writing.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Fr John W Fenton
        >
        > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
        >
        > http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>
        >
        > <mailto:jwfenton@...> jwfenton@...
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of salsberna
        > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:46 PM
        > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Just Joined
        >
        >
        >
        > Hey Ya'll,
        > I'm Sal Sberna and I just joined the group. Last August I was
        > confirmed into a wonderful ELCA congregation and thus finalized my
        > departure from the Southern Baptist/Non-denominational churches I
        > have attended all my life. This is not to say I've severed ties
        > with those Christians, though. In fact, my father is the Senior
        > Pastor at a local Baptist Church. Needless to say, I have been
        > introduced into the wonders of the Liturgy, the Sacraments and
        > my "Catholic" heritage. About 5 months ago I felt a call to the
        > Pastoral Vocation and began to rethink my future accordingly (I'm a
        > junior at the University of Houston). Everything was going
        > swimmingly until I began to noice some unsettling things happening
        > in the ELCA. In general, the overall tone of the ELCA seems to be
        > that of many other liberal, Protestant Churches: i.e. a focus on
        > the "social gospel," and perhaps even their future stance on
        > homosexuality. Anyway, I began to be hesitant about serving in a
        > Church that I didn't agree with and was heading in a totally
        > different direction than me. So, I started looking at the Roman
        > Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Needless to say, my
        > parents weren't thrilled when I brought up arguments like the
        > problems with "Sola Scriptura" teaching and the historical
        > significance of both the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Now, I find
        > myself much more in agreement with the OC concerning participation
        > in the Liturgy,Purgatory and the Sacraments. However, having been
        > raised a Protestant all my life I still hold fast to the beliefs of
        > Sola Gratia and Sola Fide. I guess I'm just looking for a group to
        > discuss these questions with. How did ya'll justify the journey to
        > Athens? Thanks.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • tantuslabor
        Dear HerrDave, Christ is risen! I ll chime in here, if I may. In the first place, the infallible scriptures do not guide all doctrine and practice in
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
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          Dear "HerrDave,"

          Christ is risen!

          I'll chime in here, if I may. In the first place, the infallible
          scriptures do not guide all doctrine and practice in Missouri. In the
          second place, the oral tradition (as you put it) is not a second
          source in addition to the Scripture (the RC view) or opposed to it
          (the Protestant view). In the third place, pronouncements by a monk
          here or a group of monks there are worthy of respect, but no one's
          voice is the voice of Orthodoxy unless and until the Church receives
          it as such. In the case of the Council of Florence, for example, only
          Mark of Ephesus, of all the hierarchs, opposed the false union. But
          his voice was received, and theirs were not.

          The infallible God, who speaks infallible words, gives to his holy
          Church an infallibly right understanding of that word. Otherwise the
          word itself were not clear.

          Hope this helps!

          Cordially,

          Fr. Gregory Hogg

          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, herrdave2_prime
          <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Fr Fenton,
          > How does one from the LCMS brand of Lutheranism deal with the new
          fuzzier version of truth coverting to Orthodoxy, when it is not the
          infallible scriptures that guide all doctrine and practice, but oral
          tradition that has so many variants, especially today when many
          Orthodox endorse practice and beliefs not seen prior to the time of
          Darwin? For example, Seraphim Rose opposes theistic evolution and the
          monks of Athos have codemned the Ecumenical Patriarch's worship with
          the heretic Pope of Rome. Many LCMS would agree with these views,
          however they seem to be frige views in Orthodoxy. I recall that the
          Orthodox consider scripture as part of tradition and that tradition is
          the rudder, but if scripture indeed has error, then by definition,
          tradition has also erred.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <jwfenton@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Welcome, Sal, to the list! And thanks for the intro.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Not all of us journeyed to Athens, or even Constantinople. Some of us
          > > journeyed to Antioch <http://www.antiochian.org/> . :-)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > To answer your question about justifying (nice word choice :-))
          this journey
          > > with the concepts of Sola Gratia and Sola Fide, let me offer a few
          brief
          > > thoughts and then a question.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Brief Comment
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The word sola gratia generally indicates that one is brought to and
          > > maintained in salvation solely by God's grace. The Orthodox
          liturgy, both in
          > > its Byzantine and Western rites, steadfastly prays for the Lord's
          mercy. And
          > > throughout her various liturgical texts, the Orthodox Church
          teaches that
          > > all we are and all we have depends on God's grace and mercy.
          However, "grace
          > > doesn't jump on us and paralyze us so we can do nothing and not
          respond" (as
          > > my Dean is fond of saying). Rather, the Orthodox liturgy firmly
          professes
          > > that the grace of God is freely given-and so is freely received. This
          > > reception, however, ought not to be considered in the sense of
          Arminianism,
          > > but rather according to the story of the Annunciation. The holy
          archangel
          > > Gabriel declares, "The Lord [is] with you," not "the Lord will
          come to you
          > > once you meet certain conditions." Yet the Lord's grace is so
          gracious that
          > > it kindly awaits the most pure Virgin to give her fiat mihi.
          Keeping that
          > > story uppermost in mind is, for me, most helpful in maintaining a
          proper
          > > understanding of sola gratia.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Question
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I know what most Lutherans popularly mean by sola fide; namely,
          that one is
          > > saved (i.e., converted, or brought from the state of pagan to
          Christian) by
          > > faith alone and not by any works or deeds. However, I also am
          aware that
          > > some Lutherans view sola fide as applying to the realm of
          sanctification (as
          > > this is distinguished from justification). In other words, that one's
          > > remaining in a state of grace depends on faith and not on works.
          Before
          > > offering an answer, then, I guess I need further clarification on
          which
          > > understanding (or perhaps another) you have concerning sola fide.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Again, thanks for writing.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Fr John W Fenton
          > >
          > > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
          > >
          > > http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>
          > >
          > > <mailto:jwfenton@> jwfenton@
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of salsberna
          > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:46 PM
          > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Just Joined
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hey Ya'll,
          > > I'm Sal Sberna and I just joined the group. Last August I was
          > > confirmed into a wonderful ELCA congregation and thus finalized my
          > > departure from the Southern Baptist/Non-denominational churches I
          > > have attended all my life. This is not to say I've severed ties
          > > with those Christians, though. In fact, my father is the Senior
          > > Pastor at a local Baptist Church. Needless to say, I have been
          > > introduced into the wonders of the Liturgy, the Sacraments and
          > > my "Catholic" heritage. About 5 months ago I felt a call to the
          > > Pastoral Vocation and began to rethink my future accordingly (I'm a
          > > junior at the University of Houston). Everything was going
          > > swimmingly until I began to noice some unsettling things happening
          > > in the ELCA. In general, the overall tone of the ELCA seems to be
          > > that of many other liberal, Protestant Churches: i.e. a focus on
          > > the "social gospel," and perhaps even their future stance on
          > > homosexuality. Anyway, I began to be hesitant about serving in a
          > > Church that I didn't agree with and was heading in a totally
          > > different direction than me. So, I started looking at the Roman
          > > Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Needless to say, my
          > > parents weren't thrilled when I brought up arguments like the
          > > problems with "Sola Scriptura" teaching and the historical
          > > significance of both the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Now, I find
          > > myself much more in agreement with the OC concerning participation
          > > in the Liturgy,Purgatory and the Sacraments. However, having been
          > > raised a Protestant all my life I still hold fast to the beliefs of
          > > Sola Gratia and Sola Fide. I guess I'm just looking for a group to
          > > discuss these questions with. How did ya'll justify the journey to
          > > Athens? Thanks.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • Salvatore Sberna
          I guess I always believed that one could never depart from the grace received at Baptism, regardless of how one lived. While that view doesn t seem very
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
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            I guess I always believed that one could never depart from the grace
            received at Baptism, regardless of how one lived. While that view doesn't
            seem very scriptural, I know alot of good people who lead Christian lives
            and they believe in the "once saved always saved and now I'm being
            sanctified" doctrine. It's a comfort to them.
            I have another question. I agree with the practice of praying to the
            Saints and the Blessed Virgin and I know there is a
            difference between veneration and worship. However, I was listening to the
            Small Paraklesis to the Theotokos and I can't see how that isn't worshipping
            her. I mean, some of the words are taken from a psalm to God and applied to
            Mary. Is that worshiping the Virgin or have we just been venerating God?
            Thanks ya'll. Be patient with me.

            Sal


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Rosemarie Lieffring
            Sal wrote: Interesting that you should say this. I heard a lecture (on tape) by Father
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
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              Sal wrote:

              <<Is that worshiping the Virgin or have we just been venerating God?>>

              Interesting that you should say this. I heard a lecture (on tape) by Father
              Peter Gilquist where he says exactly that!

              The Paraclesis to the Theotokos is hard on ears that have been trained up in
              Protestantism / Lutheranism. It sure can sound like worship. However, in
              the context of the Orthodox faith, it is veneration and the language is
              poetic in form. It really comes down to orientation and understanding. I
              know I raised an eyebrow or two during my first few Paraclesis services.
              Fortunately, I was instructed beforehand and was somewhat prepared. Had it
              hit me cold, it may have been a little harder to handle.-----R


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Christopher Orr
              All the parables of the Lord relating to the Kingdom, the Church, refer to both wheat and tares, good and bad fishes, etc. In the Church there are both. The
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
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                All the parables of the Lord relating to the Kingdom, the Church, refer to
                both wheat and tares, good and bad fishes, etc. In the Church there are
                both. The Church is not just the saved, just the rightly believing, etc.
                Thank God, because I am the chief of sinners, as St. Paul says of himself
                and which we say of ourselves. So, one remains connected to the Church in
                some way once you are Baptized, even if you apostatize you are received back
                into the Church not by Baptism but by Repentance and/or Chrismation.

                In English we have a harder time with prayer to the Virgin because we don't
                have the differences in words that the Greek has. There is latria (worship
                due only to God), then there is doulia (veneration to the saints). However,
                the word used only for the veneration due to the Theotokos is hyperdoulia
                because as the Mother of God, she has a unique relationship with God. If
                Christ is without sin, then he MUST honor His Mother, otherwise he breaks
                one of the Ten Commandments. She is unlike the rest of humanity in this
                way.

                Also, we need to remind ourselves that the word 'pray' is simply a fervent
                synonym for the word 'ask'. In Shakespeare we will often hear someone say,
                "I pray thee, sir...". Hamlet is not therefore worshiping Polonius or
                testifying to his divinity.

                A lot of the language issues also come down to context. For instance, in a
                religious conversation one could say that "God is writing this email"
                because nothing could be done without his will or allowance. But, I,
                Christopher Orr, am writing this email in a very real way, too - God is not
                writing it apart from me, and he is not using me as a robot or as an
                amanuensis with no will, freedom or personality of my own to write for him.
                Same with language relative to the Theotokos, if Christ has to listen to his
                mother in a special way, then when she prays she can 'save' us in a very
                real way. Just as we wouldn't constantly say that God is the one 'doing'
                every action you take in your life, or causing every event in the world, so
                too do we refer to the activity of the Virgin as being her own - though it
                is the power of God that actually effects the blessing.

                I have often thought that if we don't believe the saints can have an effect
                through their prayers, then perhaps we don't truly believe pray can do
                anything at all.

                The last objection to the invocation of the saints is whether they are able
                to hear us when we pray to them. They have not gained power on their own,
                they have gained this power and blessing through their union with God. This
                is similar to the way in which the Apostles could heal and raise the dead -
                they didn't do this of their own power and ability, they did it through the
                power of God. If that is true, how much more true of those saints that have
                sloughed off this mortal coil and behold God 'face to face' in heaven? In
                this context, asking the saints for their sinless prayers to God is no
                different than asking anyone to intercede for us (pray for us) and expecting
                a result. Are your living mother's prayers obscuring the divinity and
                authority of God? No. Neither does asking the living saints in heaven for
                their prayers obscure the divinity and authority of God as if they were
                demigods somehow able to grant our prays of their own accord apart from
                their union with God in heaven.

                Christopher


                On 4/23/07, Salvatore Sberna <salsberna@...> wrote:
                >
                > I guess I always believed that one could never depart from the grace
                > received at Baptism, regardless of how one lived. While that view doesn't
                > seem very scriptural, I know alot of good people who lead Christian lives
                > and they believe in the "once saved always saved and now I'm being
                > sanctified" doctrine. It's a comfort to them.
                > I have another question. I agree with the practice of praying to the
                > Saints and the Blessed Virgin and I know there is a
                > difference between veneration and worship. However, I was listening to the
                > Small Paraklesis to the Theotokos and I can't see how that isn't
                > worshipping
                > her. I mean, some of the words are taken from a psalm to God and applied
                > to
                > Mary. Is that worshiping the Virgin or have we just been venerating God?
                > Thanks ya'll. Be patient with me.
                >
                > Sal
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • herrdave2_prime
                I agree that dogma is an official church pronouncement, however what is officially fuzzy may not be actually tolerated. The fuzzy part can be generally
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
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                  I agree that dogma is an official church pronouncement, however what is officially fuzzy may not be actually tolerated. The fuzzy part can be generally accepted as if it were dogma, offocially taught to newbies and children. For example, in my neck of the woods I wouldn't know of a priest who would dream of teaching 'as it was written' creation account alongside an allegorical account.I can find canonical jurisdiction's web sites to confirm this. It appears the bible is a fact apart from tradition in this case. Simply put Darwin influenced the whole, even though it wasn't dogmatized.
                  Joint worship with the Pope would have been unthought of in the past. NCC and WCC activities have brought this about. How can these changes be placed on the back of the mind for incomming LCMSers?

                  --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor" <stoic1348@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear "HerrDave,"
                  >
                  > Christ is risen!
                  >
                  > I'll chime in here, if I may. In the first place, the infallible
                  > scriptures do not guide all doctrine and practice in Missouri. In the
                  > second place, the oral tradition (as you put it) is not a second
                  > source in addition to the Scripture (the RC view) or opposed to it
                  > (the Protestant view). In the third place, pronouncements by a monk
                  > here or a group of monks there are worthy of respect, but no one's
                  > voice is the voice of Orthodoxy unless and until the Church receives
                  > it as such. In the case of the Council of Florence, for example, only
                  > Mark of Ephesus, of all the hierarchs, opposed the false union. But
                  > his voice was received, and theirs were not.
                  >
                  > The infallible God, who speaks infallible words, gives to his holy
                  > Church an infallibly right understanding of that word. Otherwise the
                  > word itself were not clear.
                  >
                  > Hope this helps!
                  >
                  > Cordially,
                  >
                  > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                  >
                  > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, herrdave2_prime
                  > <no_reply@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Fr Fenton,
                  > > How does one from the LCMS brand of Lutheranism deal with the new
                  > fuzzier version of truth coverting to Orthodoxy, when it is not the
                  > infallible scriptures that guide all doctrine and practice, but oral
                  > tradition that has so many variants, especially today when many
                  > Orthodox endorse practice and beliefs not seen prior to the time of
                  > Darwin? For example, Seraphim Rose opposes theistic evolution and the
                  > monks of Athos have codemned the Ecumenical Patriarch's worship with
                  > the heretic Pope of Rome. Many LCMS would agree with these views,
                  > however they seem to be frige views in Orthodoxy. I recall that the
                  > Orthodox consider scripture as part of tradition and that tradition is
                  > the rudder, but if scripture indeed has error, then by definition,
                  > tradition has also erred.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <jwfenton@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Welcome, Sal, to the list! And thanks for the intro.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Not all of us journeyed to Athens, or even Constantinople. Some of us
                  > > > journeyed to Antioch <http://www.antiochian.org/> . :-)
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To answer your question about justifying (nice word choice :-))
                  > this journey
                  > > > with the concepts of Sola Gratia and Sola Fide, let me offer a few
                  > brief
                  > > > thoughts and then a question.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Brief Comment
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The word sola gratia generally indicates that one is brought to and
                  > > > maintained in salvation solely by God's grace. The Orthodox
                  > liturgy, both in
                  > > > its Byzantine and Western rites, steadfastly prays for the Lord's
                  > mercy. And
                  > > > throughout her various liturgical texts, the Orthodox Church
                  > teaches that
                  > > > all we are and all we have depends on God's grace and mercy.
                  > However, "grace
                  > > > doesn't jump on us and paralyze us so we can do nothing and not
                  > respond" (as
                  > > > my Dean is fond of saying). Rather, the Orthodox liturgy firmly
                  > professes
                  > > > that the grace of God is freely given-and so is freely received. This
                  > > > reception, however, ought not to be considered in the sense of
                  > Arminianism,
                  > > > but rather according to the story of the Annunciation. The holy
                  > archangel
                  > > > Gabriel declares, "The Lord [is] with you," not "the Lord will
                  > come to you
                  > > > once you meet certain conditions." Yet the Lord's grace is so
                  > gracious that
                  > > > it kindly awaits the most pure Virgin to give her fiat mihi.
                  > Keeping that
                  > > > story uppermost in mind is, for me, most helpful in maintaining a
                  > proper
                  > > > understanding of sola gratia.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Question
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I know what most Lutherans popularly mean by sola fide; namely,
                  > that one is
                  > > > saved (i.e., converted, or brought from the state of pagan to
                  > Christian) by
                  > > > faith alone and not by any works or deeds. However, I also am
                  > aware that
                  > > > some Lutherans view sola fide as applying to the realm of
                  > sanctification (as
                  > > > this is distinguished from justification). In other words, that one's
                  > > > remaining in a state of grace depends on faith and not on works.
                  > Before
                  > > > offering an answer, then, I guess I need further clarification on
                  > which
                  > > > understanding (or perhaps another) you have concerning sola fide.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Again, thanks for writing.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Fr John W Fenton
                  > > >
                  > > > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                  > > >
                  > > > http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>
                  > > >
                  > > > <mailto:jwfenton@> jwfenton@
                  > > >
                  > > > _____
                  > > >
                  > > > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of salsberna
                  > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:46 PM
                  > > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Just Joined
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hey Ya'll,
                  > > > I'm Sal Sberna and I just joined the group. Last August I was
                  > > > confirmed into a wonderful ELCA congregation and thus finalized my
                  > > > departure from the Southern Baptist/Non-denominational churches I
                  > > > have attended all my life. This is not to say I've severed ties
                  > > > with those Christians, though. In fact, my father is the Senior
                  > > > Pastor at a local Baptist Church. Needless to say, I have been
                  > > > introduced into the wonders of the Liturgy, the Sacraments and
                  > > > my "Catholic" heritage. About 5 months ago I felt a call to the
                  > > > Pastoral Vocation and began to rethink my future accordingly (I'm a
                  > > > junior at the University of Houston). Everything was going
                  > > > swimmingly until I began to noice some unsettling things happening
                  > > > in the ELCA. In general, the overall tone of the ELCA seems to be
                  > > > that of many other liberal, Protestant Churches: i.e. a focus on
                  > > > the "social gospel," and perhaps even their future stance on
                  > > > homosexuality. Anyway, I began to be hesitant about serving in a
                  > > > Church that I didn't agree with and was heading in a totally
                  > > > different direction than me. So, I started looking at the Roman
                  > > > Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Needless to say, my
                  > > > parents weren't thrilled when I brought up arguments like the
                  > > > problems with "Sola Scriptura" teaching and the historical
                  > > > significance of both the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Now, I find
                  > > > myself much more in agreement with the OC concerning participation
                  > > > in the Liturgy,Purgatory and the Sacraments. However, having been
                  > > > raised a Protestant all my life I still hold fast to the beliefs of
                  > > > Sola Gratia and Sola Fide. I guess I'm just looking for a group to
                  > > > discuss these questions with. How did ya'll justify the journey to
                  > > > Athens? Thanks.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • tantuslabor
                  Dear HerrDave , Perhaps you re aware, perhaps not, that a long line of church fathers understood the creation account in other-than-7-24-hour-day terms, long
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear "HerrDave",

                    Perhaps you're aware, perhaps not, that a long line of church fathers
                    understood the creation account in other-than-7-24-hour-day terms,
                    long before Mr. Darwin was a twinkle in--well, in something. And while
                    I am less than happy with the Ecumenical Patriarch's ecumenical
                    endeavors vis-a-vis Rome, I do have hope that before the Lord's return
                    Peter will "be converted" and "strengthen his brethren."

                    So, have you been considering the Orthodox Church?

                    In Christ,

                    Fr. Gregory

                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, herrdave2_prime
                    <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I agree that dogma is an official church pronouncement, however what
                    is officially fuzzy may not be actually tolerated. The fuzzy part can
                    be generally accepted as if it were dogma, offocially taught to
                    newbies and children. For example, in my neck of the woods I wouldn't
                    know of a priest who would dream of teaching 'as it was written'
                    creation account alongside an allegorical account.I can find canonical
                    jurisdiction's web sites to confirm this. It appears the bible is a
                    fact apart from tradition in this case. Simply put Darwin influenced
                    the whole, even though it wasn't dogmatized.
                    > Joint worship with the Pope would have been unthought of in the
                    past. NCC and WCC activities have brought this about. How can these
                    changes be placed on the back of the mind for incomming LCMSers?
                    >
                    > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
                    <stoic1348@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear "HerrDave,"
                    > >
                    > > Christ is risen!
                    > >
                    > > I'll chime in here, if I may. In the first place, the infallible
                    > > scriptures do not guide all doctrine and practice in Missouri. In the
                    > > second place, the oral tradition (as you put it) is not a second
                    > > source in addition to the Scripture (the RC view) or opposed to it
                    > > (the Protestant view). In the third place, pronouncements by a monk
                    > > here or a group of monks there are worthy of respect, but no one's
                    > > voice is the voice of Orthodoxy unless and until the Church receives
                    > > it as such. In the case of the Council of Florence, for example, only
                    > > Mark of Ephesus, of all the hierarchs, opposed the false union. But
                    > > his voice was received, and theirs were not.
                    > >
                    > > The infallible God, who speaks infallible words, gives to his holy
                    > > Church an infallibly right understanding of that word. Otherwise the
                    > > word itself were not clear.
                    > >
                    > > Hope this helps!
                    > >
                    > > Cordially,
                    > >
                    > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
                    > >
                    > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, herrdave2_prime
                    > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Fr Fenton,
                    > > > How does one from the LCMS brand of Lutheranism deal with the new
                    > > fuzzier version of truth coverting to Orthodoxy, when it is not the
                    > > infallible scriptures that guide all doctrine and practice, but oral
                    > > tradition that has so many variants, especially today when many
                    > > Orthodox endorse practice and beliefs not seen prior to the time of
                    > > Darwin? For example, Seraphim Rose opposes theistic evolution and the
                    > > monks of Athos have codemned the Ecumenical Patriarch's worship with
                    > > the heretic Pope of Rome. Many LCMS would agree with these views,
                    > > however they seem to be frige views in Orthodoxy. I recall that the
                    > > Orthodox consider scripture as part of tradition and that tradition is
                    > > the rudder, but if scripture indeed has error, then by definition,
                    > > tradition has also erred.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <jwfenton@>
                    wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Welcome, Sal, to the list! And thanks for the intro.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Not all of us journeyed to Athens, or even Constantinople.
                    Some of us
                    > > > > journeyed to Antioch <http://www.antiochian.org/> . :-)
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To answer your question about justifying (nice word choice :-))
                    > > this journey
                    > > > > with the concepts of Sola Gratia and Sola Fide, let me offer a few
                    > > brief
                    > > > > thoughts and then a question.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Brief Comment
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The word sola gratia generally indicates that one is brought
                    to and
                    > > > > maintained in salvation solely by God's grace. The Orthodox
                    > > liturgy, both in
                    > > > > its Byzantine and Western rites, steadfastly prays for the Lord's
                    > > mercy. And
                    > > > > throughout her various liturgical texts, the Orthodox Church
                    > > teaches that
                    > > > > all we are and all we have depends on God's grace and mercy.
                    > > However, "grace
                    > > > > doesn't jump on us and paralyze us so we can do nothing and not
                    > > respond" (as
                    > > > > my Dean is fond of saying). Rather, the Orthodox liturgy firmly
                    > > professes
                    > > > > that the grace of God is freely given-and so is freely
                    received. This
                    > > > > reception, however, ought not to be considered in the sense of
                    > > Arminianism,
                    > > > > but rather according to the story of the Annunciation. The holy
                    > > archangel
                    > > > > Gabriel declares, "The Lord [is] with you," not "the Lord will
                    > > come to you
                    > > > > once you meet certain conditions." Yet the Lord's grace is so
                    > > gracious that
                    > > > > it kindly awaits the most pure Virgin to give her fiat mihi.
                    > > Keeping that
                    > > > > story uppermost in mind is, for me, most helpful in maintaining a
                    > > proper
                    > > > > understanding of sola gratia.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Question
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I know what most Lutherans popularly mean by sola fide; namely,
                    > > that one is
                    > > > > saved (i.e., converted, or brought from the state of pagan to
                    > > Christian) by
                    > > > > faith alone and not by any works or deeds. However, I also am
                    > > aware that
                    > > > > some Lutherans view sola fide as applying to the realm of
                    > > sanctification (as
                    > > > > this is distinguished from justification). In other words,
                    that one's
                    > > > > remaining in a state of grace depends on faith and not on works.
                    > > Before
                    > > > > offering an answer, then, I guess I need further clarification on
                    > > which
                    > > > > understanding (or perhaps another) you have concerning sola fide.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Again, thanks for writing.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Fr John W Fenton
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                    > > > >
                    > > > > http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>
                    > > > >
                    > > > > <mailto:jwfenton@> jwfenton@
                    > > > >
                    > > > > _____
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    salsberna
                    > > > > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2007 7:46 PM
                    > > > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Just Joined
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hey Ya'll,
                    > > > > I'm Sal Sberna and I just joined the group. Last August I was
                    > > > > confirmed into a wonderful ELCA congregation and thus
                    finalized my
                    > > > > departure from the Southern Baptist/Non-denominational churches I
                    > > > > have attended all my life. This is not to say I've severed ties
                    > > > > with those Christians, though. In fact, my father is the Senior
                    > > > > Pastor at a local Baptist Church. Needless to say, I have been
                    > > > > introduced into the wonders of the Liturgy, the Sacraments and
                    > > > > my "Catholic" heritage. About 5 months ago I felt a call to the
                    > > > > Pastoral Vocation and began to rethink my future accordingly
                    (I'm a
                    > > > > junior at the University of Houston). Everything was going
                    > > > > swimmingly until I began to noice some unsettling things
                    happening
                    > > > > in the ELCA. In general, the overall tone of the ELCA seems to be
                    > > > > that of many other liberal, Protestant Churches: i.e. a focus on
                    > > > > the "social gospel," and perhaps even their future stance on
                    > > > > homosexuality. Anyway, I began to be hesitant about serving in a
                    > > > > Church that I didn't agree with and was heading in a totally
                    > > > > different direction than me. So, I started looking at the Roman
                    > > > > Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. Needless to say, my
                    > > > > parents weren't thrilled when I brought up arguments like the
                    > > > > problems with "Sola Scriptura" teaching and the historical
                    > > > > significance of both the RCC and the Orthodox Church. Now, I find
                    > > > > myself much more in agreement with the OC concerning
                    participation
                    > > > > in the Liturgy,Purgatory and the Sacraments. However, having been
                    > > > > raised a Protestant all my life I still hold fast to the
                    beliefs of
                    > > > > Sola Gratia and Sola Fide. I guess I'm just looking for a
                    group to
                    > > > > discuss these questions with. How did ya'll justify the
                    journey to
                    > > > > Athens? Thanks.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Christopher Orr
                    ... St. Gregory the Theologian said in his day that to be orthodox at that time [Nicea] was only to be slightly in error - referring to the fact that the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On 4/23/07, herrdave2_prime <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      >
                      > I agree that dogma is an official church pronouncement, however what is
                      > officially fuzzy may not be actually tolerated. The fuzzy part can be
                      > generally accepted as if it were dogma, offocially taught to newbies and
                      > children.
                      >





                      St. Gregory the Theologian said in his day that "to be orthodox at that time
                      [Nicea] was only to be slightly in error" - referring to the fact that the
                      full, equal divinity of the Holy Spirit had not been definitively defined.
                      In fact, even at the 2nd EC, the finished Nicene Creed consciously chose NOT
                      to refer to the Holy Spirit as homoousios (of the same essence) with the
                      Father and the Son to mollify those still regarding the HS to be somehow
                      less than the Son (homoiousios, 'of like/similar essence'). The Church's
                      'mind' accepted and defined the Nicene Creed in a wholly Orthodox way,
                      though, through the work of the continuing work of the Cappadocians.

                      This all means that a certain 'fuzziness' was a part of the faith from the
                      start as the Church has sought to both live out the faith and to protect it
                      from heresy (which is different than uncomprehending error in those that are
                      growing in the faith).

                      For example, in my neck of the woods I wouldn't know of a priest who would
                      > dream of teaching 'as it was written' creation account alongside an
                      > allegorical account.I can find canonical jurisdiction's web sites to
                      > confirm this. It appears the bible is a fact apart from tradition in this
                      > case. Simply put Darwin influenced the whole, even though it wasn't
                      > dogmatized.
                      >








                      There were Fathers that were primarily interpreting Genesis 1 and 2 as
                      spiritual texts, not literal, in the early centuries of the Church. Apart
                      from any proof that the world could have been created in another way, they
                      accepted it as true while also understanding it in spiritual, typological
                      and allegorical ways. As science has raised questions about the origins of
                      life, people have reexamined the issue and come down on various sides. It
                      took the Church centuries to finalize the dogmas surrounding Icons, I would
                      expect a similar or longer time frame for the origins of life. Most people
                      are agnostic on the issue, but you will find people on both sides of the
                      coin making arguments for and against evolution, for and against
                      creationism, as part of the process of understanding the doctrinal issues
                      involved and they interact with history, science, the Bible, the Fathers,
                      etc.

                      Also, it is important to recognize that American Orthodoxy is not the
                      Orthodox Church in full. There are currents of thought far more prevalent
                      here than in the rest of the Church, and vice versa. I would refer you
                      again to the quote from St. Gregory discussing orthodoxy during a time of
                      great change.

                      Joint worship with the Pope would have been unthought of in the past. NCC
                      > and WCC activities have brought this about. How can these changes be placed
                      > on the back of the mind for incomming LCMSers?
                      >





                      There has never been joint worship with the Pope, though there has been
                      joint prayer which a good number of Orthodox hold to be allowable for those
                      that may be in error, in schism, or be their heirs of those that created
                      schism or heresy (rather than being arch-heretics themselves or the causers
                      of schism). More often, though, you will find the different churches
                      praying alongside of each other, watching the other, but not jointly praying
                      or worshiping with them. It is similar to when i attend a non-Orthodox
                      wedding or service. They are worshiping and praying, I am simply observing
                      and watching. In an interfaith event, they may just take turns.

                      Also, the only time official worship happens is when a priest/bishop is
                      vested; it is worth noting that interfaith events such as the Prayer Event
                      at Yankee Stadium after 9/11 had the heads of the OCA and the Greek
                      Archdiocese there UNVESTED and simply offering a prayer on behalf of their
                      own people present that others were more than welcome to share in - just
                      like me at a non-Orthodox wedding: I'm not praying with the Rabbi or
                      minister - he is praying and I am watching him pray.

                      Christopher


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • herrdave2_prime
                      Yes ... b
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yes

                        > So, have you been considering the Orthodox Church?
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        >
                        > Fr. Gregory
                        >
                        b
                      • tantuslabor
                        Dear Herr_Dave, I thought I remembered your name from before, and doing a search on the Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue list I came across a post that said you were
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 23, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Herr_Dave,

                          I thought I remembered your name from before, and doing a search on
                          the Lutheran-Orthodox dialogue list I came across a post that said you
                          were returning to confessional Lutheranism. Has something happened to
                          make you reconsider? If you wish, you can email me offlist at
                          stoic1348 at sbcglobal dot net.

                          In Christ,

                          Fr. Gregory

                          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, herrdave2_prime
                          <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes
                          >
                          > > So, have you been considering the Orthodox Church?
                          > >
                          > > In Christ,
                          > >
                          > > Fr. Gregory
                          > >
                          > b
                          >
                        • Salvatore Sberna
                          Thanks guys, That does clear things up a bit. But I m just wondering if worshiping and venerating...um...*feel *any different. This sounds like a silly
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 24, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks guys,
                            That does clear things up a bit. But I'm just wondering if worshiping and
                            venerating...um...*feel *any different. This sounds like a silly question
                            (probably because it is), but I'd like to hear ya'lls experience. Thanks
                            again.

                            Sal


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Laura Frizelle
                            Hi Sal, As far as feeling goes, I can t say much. I am still on the Lutheran side of the fence and haven t had much opportunity to worship regularly with the
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 24, 2007
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                              Hi Sal,

                              As far as feeling goes, I can't say much. I am still on the
                              Lutheran side of the fence and haven't had much opportunity
                              to worship regularly with the E.O.

                              The saints that are venerated are in Christ. Christ himself
                              must honor his mother, the Theotokos. The Church is the
                              Bride of Christ united--one flesh. Jesus prayed that we
                              might be one as he and the Father are one. He is in us and
                              we are in him. Luther even talked about "mystical union."

                              This is cosmic. Weird even at times to think about. Hard
                              to really understand---like the Holy Trinity. How can it
                              be?

                              When something is completely united, it is hard to see where
                              to draw the line. I think that is why in Orthodox worship
                              the saints are so highly venerated.

                              As Lutherans we say that we believe in the communion of the
                              saints and in some of our liturgies we say "With angels and
                              archangels we laud and magnify your name, ever more praising
                              you and singing---Holy, Holy, Holy...." So we say believe
                              the saints are with us in Christ, but we do not fully
                              embrace this reality.

                              So far in my immature relationship with the saints, when I
                              venerate an icon, I "feel" that I am thanking them for
                              passing the faith on to me and to all of us. I "feel" like
                              I am glad to be with them. I "feel" that they are part of
                              my family in Christ and that it is good to greet them and
                              honor them.

                              As far as asking them to pray for me or "communicating" with
                              them, If the saints really are with us---if they were
                              physically with us, wouldn't you have questions to ask them?
                              If you developed a relationship with St. Paul and trusted
                              and respected him--knowing that he loves you especially now
                              that he is in Christ and Christ is definitely in him,
                              wouldn't you ask him to pray for you---Like you would a
                              godly friend or relative?

                              Other icons, festal icons, --when I venerate them I "feel"
                              like I am acknowledging their heavenly truth and thanking
                              God for all that he does for us in his kingdom.

                              One of the first services my husband and I attended at the
                              local Antiochian Orthodox Church was the Paraklesis. We
                              left that service with our heads swimming. We were promptly
                              loaded up with books. The most helpful for me personally
                              were:

                              "Mary: Untrodden Portal of God" and a booklet by Fr.
                              Alexander Schmemmann called "The Presence of Mary"

                              These books were helpful intellectually, but I know that
                              ultimately time (in worship and in communion with God and
                              his saints) is what will help me to love and "feel" right
                              and truly grow into a deeper "relationship" with our faith
                              ancestors in Christ.

                              I am looking forward to hearing from the Orthodox members of
                              the group about how they personally experience the
                              difference between worship and veneration.

                              Good Question Sal!

                              Peace be with you all!
                              Laura
                            • Christopher Orr
                              On a practical level, I was raised only to pray to one person (well, three, you get my drift): God. So, I do have to remember to whom/Whom I am praying. That
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 24, 2007
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                                On a practical level, I was raised only to pray to one person (well, three,
                                you get my drift): God. So, I do have to remember to whom/Whom I am
                                praying. That being said, the saints are united to God - not symbolically
                                or metaphorically, but really - so they are one, in some sense. The
                                Theotokos is able to 'save' us in the same way that a believing husband or
                                wife can 'save' his/her spouse - by the power of their intercession to God
                                accessing His power.

                                There is a greater awareness not just of the likeness and sharedness of
                                Christ to us, but also about his radical difference from us. He is fully
                                human (body, soul, mind, will, etc.), but He is also the True God Who is
                                coming again to judge the world. The saints do not judge us and never
                                will. So, they are somehow 'more' understanding toward us because they are
                                'just' humans, and they were saved, too - Christ was in no need of salvation
                                for His Person as were the Theotokos and the saints. So, praying to Christ
                                is not of the 'buddy' sort, but radically understands our need for mercy now
                                and at the 'fearful Judgement' where we will be judged by Christ, compared
                                to Him in Whose image and likeness we were created. The saints are fellow
                                creatures, fellow sinners that have overcome our fallenness.

                                Christopher



                                On 4/24/07, Salvatore Sberna <salsberna@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks guys,
                                > That does clear things up a bit. But I'm just wondering if worshiping and
                                > venerating...um...*feel *any different. This sounds like a silly question
                                > (probably because it is), but I'd like to hear ya'lls experience. Thanks
                                > again.
                                >
                                > Sal
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Anastasia Theodoridis
                                Laura has summed up well how it feels to me, too. Toward the saints I feel gratitude, love, and filial allegiance. They are my fathers and mothers in
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 24, 2007
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                                  Laura has summed up well how it "feels" to me, too. Toward the saints I feel gratitude, love, and filial allegiance. They are my fathers and mothers in Christ, my mentors and coaches and pastors and exemplars.

                                  But they are not my Maker, my Redeemer, my Judge, my God.

                                  In my experience, Orthodoxy keeps all this in proper perspective. Attendance at her services will allow a person to see this very clearly. Even the Paraclesis and the Akathist are Christ-centered, once you analyze the actual language. Mary is always venerated in her role *relative to Christ*, and never for herself alone. She is called the Table upon which the Divine Banquet is spread, or the Light-bearing cloud, the plant bringing forth the most precious Fruit, the Ladder by which Christ entered into the world, etc.

                                  Anastasia
                                • herrdave2_prime
                                  always everywhere and by all, that s Orthodoxy
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 24, 2007
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                                    always everywhere and by all, that's Orthodoxy
                                  • Brian Fink
                                    Dear Salvatore, Its not a silly question and yes they do feel different for me at least. When venerating the icon of a saint or singing the Paraclesis, I am
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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                                      Dear Salvatore,

                                      Its not a silly question and yes they do "feel" different for me at least. When venerating the icon of a saint or singing the Paraclesis, I am always aware that I am giving them honor and praise because of what God has done through them. They are never acting independant of God's grace. But when singing or praying to God, there is a whole different level there. I am worshipping the Trinune God.

                                      Chrysostom

                                      Salvatore Sberna <salsberna@...> wrote:
                                      Thanks guys,
                                      That does clear things up a bit. But I'm just wondering if worshiping and
                                      venerating...um...*feel *any different. This sounds like a silly question
                                      (probably because it is), but I'd like to hear ya'lls experience. Thanks
                                      again.

                                      Sal

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Christopher Orr
                                      ... Attendance at her services will allow a person to see this very clearly. Even the Paraclesis and the Akathist are Christ-centered, once you analyze the
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 25, 2007
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                                        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Anastasia Theodoridis
                                        <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:

                                        > But they are not my Maker, my Redeemer, my Judge, my God.
                                        >
                                        > In my experience, Orthodoxy keeps all this in proper perspective.
                                        Attendance at her services will allow a person to see this very
                                        clearly. Even the Paraclesis and the Akathist are Christ-centered,
                                        once you analyze the actual language. Mary is always venerated in her
                                        role *relative to Christ*, and never for herself alone. She is called
                                        the Table upon which the Divine Banquet is spread, or the
                                        Light-bearing cloud, the plant bringing forth the most precious Fruit,
                                        the Ladder by which Christ entered into the world, etc.
                                        >
                                        > Anastasia
                                        >


                                        Here is a translation of the Little Paraklesis (Supplicatory Canon) to
                                        the Theotokos:

                                        http://www.anastasis.org.uk/lit-parak.htm

                                        There is also a huge differentiation in Orthodoxy between the
                                        Uncreated and the created. The primary difference between us and God
                                        is not that He is perfect, sinless, omnipotent, omniscient, etc. it is
                                        that He is without beginning and Uncreated.

                                        Christopher
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