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Wisdom?

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  • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
    What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs? from Orthodoxwiki: Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá wisdom ) is a heresy which has
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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      What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?

      from Orthodoxwiki:
      Sophianism (from Greek ����� "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology, nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.

      Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of Orthodoxy?

      I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept and understood in a different way?

      Love in Christ,
      phos

      _________________________________________________________________
      Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
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    • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
      Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the Word
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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        Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the Word of God who incarnated as the man Jesus Christ. On another list there was a discussion of what sort of images should be used to depict Holy Wisdom. I would argue that, despite any existing precedents, any image of Holy Wisdom should be identifiably the image of Jesus Christ. I have at home an image of Holy Wisdom as a young male creating the world. It falls short of including the monograms for Jesus Christ but is otherwise impressive [by the hand of Robert Lenz, previously marketed through Bridge Building Images and maybe not currently available elsewhere either]. Peter

        phos_hilarion@... wrote:

        What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?

        from Orthodoxwiki:
        Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology, nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.

        Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of Orthodoxy?

        I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept and understood in a different way?

        Love in Christ,
        phos

        _________________________________________________________________
        Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
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      • randall hay
        Peter put it very nicely here. The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus (used quite commonly) refers to Christ as Wisdom of the Most High personified. OT references
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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          Peter put it very nicely here. The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus (used quite commonly) refers to Christ as "Wisdom of the Most High personified." OT references to wisdom in this sense are taken this way....

          The sophiological heresy is a fairly recent one that arose in Russian circles...I've heard it still exists (apparently there's a Protestant professor at nearby Butler's Christian Theological Seminary who's a great proponent) but I've never met a sophiogist in person.

          The Hagia Sophia icon predates the heresy by many centuries, and is symbolic...my Russian one has Christ featured prominently---

          Subdeacon Randy


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>
          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 3:58:58 PM
          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?


          Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the Word of God who incarnated as the man Jesus Christ. On another list there was a discussion of what sort of images should be used to depict Holy Wisdom. I would argue that, despite any existing precedents, any image of Holy Wisdom should be identifiably the image of Jesus Christ. I have at home an image of Holy Wisdom as a young male creating the world. It falls short of including the monograms for Jesus Christ but is otherwise impressive [by the hand of Robert Lenz, previously marketed through Bridge Building Images and maybe not currently available elsewhere either]. Peter

          phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com wrote:

          What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?

          from Orthodoxwiki:
          Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology, nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.

          Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of Orthodoxy?

          I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept and understood in a different way?

          Love in Christ,
          phos

          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
          http://im.live com/Messenger/ IM/Join/Default. aspx?souce= EML_WL_ GoodCause

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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        • Christopher Orr
          Christ is Wisdom (Sophia) in the same way that he is the Ancient of Days, the Angel of the Lord in the OT, the fire of the burning bush, etc. The entire OT is
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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            Christ is Wisdom (Sophia) in the same way that he is the Ancient of Days,
            the Angel of the Lord in the OT, the fire of the burning bush, etc. The
            entire OT is about Christ.

            It should also be noted that a theologoumena such as Mary as Sophia, or the
            like, may be allowed in the Church for a time. That does not make it
            Orthodox, however. The teaching must be accepted by the Church, and that
            means conciliarly, episcopally, by the laity and monastics, as well as
            broadly by a consensus of the local churches. The Church is as patient
            with the errors of her member as Christ the Judge is with we sinners. There
            are also teachings that may be 'correct' given the context, but not
            objectively correct (e.g., the 3 leaf clover is not an objectively true
            image of the Holy Trinity, but St. Patrick used it appropriately to those
            beginning to learn of the True God).

            Chirstopher


            On 6/2/08, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:
            >
            > Peter put it very nicely here. The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus (used
            > quite commonly) refers to Christ as "Wisdom of the Most High personified."
            > OT references to wisdom in this sense are taken this way....
            >
            > The sophiological heresy is a fairly recent one that arose in Russian
            > circles...I've heard it still exists (apparently there's a Protestant
            > professor at nearby Butler's Christian Theological Seminary who's a great
            > proponent) but I've never met a sophiogist in person.
            >
            > The Hagia Sophia icon predates the heresy by many centuries, and is
            > symbolic...my Russian one has Christ featured prominently---
            >
            > Subdeacon Randy
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...<donpedrogordo%40yahoo.com>
            > >
            > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 3:58:58 PM
            > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?
            >
            > Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom
            > of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the
            > Word of God who incarnated as the man Jesus Christ. On another list there
            > was a discussion of what sort of images should be used to depict Holy
            > Wisdom. I would argue that, despite any existing precedents, any image of
            > Holy Wisdom should be identifiably the image of Jesus Christ. I have at home
            > an image of Holy Wisdom as a young male creating the world. It falls short
            > of including the monograms for Jesus Christ but is otherwise impressive [by
            > the hand of Robert Lenz, previously marketed through Bridge Building Images
            > and maybe not currently available elsewhere either]. Peter
            >
            > phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com wrote:
            >
            > What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?
            >
            > from Orthodoxwiki:
            > Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned
            > by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology,
            > nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius
            > Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary
            > feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian
            > Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir
            > Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit
            > and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.
            >
            > Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of
            > Orthodoxy?
            >
            > I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept
            > and understood in a different way?
            >
            > Love in Christ,
            > phos
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            > Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from
            > Microsoft.
            > http://im.live com/Messenger/ IM/Join/Default. aspx?souce= EML_WL_
            > GoodCause
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > ------------ --------- --------- ------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Christopher Orr
            917 848 7787 Mobile
            xcjorr@...


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
            As a Lutheran converted to Orthodoxy who has immersed himself in reading the liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church for nearly thirty years, any suggestion of
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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              As a Lutheran converted to Orthodoxy who has immersed himself in reading the liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church for nearly thirty years, any suggestion of Mary as the Sophia / Wisdom of God would get my immediate attention as an aberration. I accept that I might some day come upon such a reference. It's justification would require the perspective of its circumstance...for example Mary might be the Book of the Wisdom of God: she is the binding but Christ is the content.

              My Lutheran training and the best of Orthodoxy have this essential perspective in common that it is always about Jesus Christ. Mary is nothing if not in conjunction with Jesus Christ.

              Christopher has it right on the mark: the entire OT is about Christ. If we do not have this perspective, we will in time simply become a new variety of non messianic Jews. The typological/prophetic understanding of the OT found in the Fathers, yes, in the Apostolic letters, yes, even more, on the lips of Jesus Christ Himself as portrayed in the sacred Gospels is essential for Christianity [whether we are speaking of Orthodox Eastern Christianity or Orthodox Lutheranism]

              Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
              Christ is Wisdom (Sophia) in the same way that he is the Ancient of Days, the Angel of the Lord in the OT, the fire of the burning bush, etc. The entire OT is about Christ.

              It should also be noted that a theologoumena such as Mary as Sophia, or the like, may be allowed in the Church for a time. That does not make it Orthodox, however.



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            • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
              Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus on Myriobiblos. I
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus on Myriobiblos. I found an Akathist to our Sweetest Lord Jesus Christ and also a Canon to our Lord Jesus Christ - are either of these the one to which you refer? Forgive me, I'm not very familiar with your liturgy.

                Christopher and Peter, thanks for your answers also. They were very helpful to me.
                Love in Christ,
                phos

                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                From: stortford@...
                Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:09:41 -0700
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?




















                Peter put it very nicely here. The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus (used quite commonly) refers to Christ as "Wisdom of the Most High personified." OT references to wisdom in this sense are taken this way....



                The sophiological heresy is a fairly recent one that arose in Russian circles...I've heard it still exists (apparently there's a Protestant professor at nearby Butler's Christian Theological Seminary who's a great proponent) but I've never met a sophiogist in person.



                The Hagia Sophia icon predates the heresy by many centuries, and is symbolic...my Russian one has Christ featured prominently---



                Subdeacon Randy



                ----- Original Message ----

                From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...>

                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com

                Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 3:58:58 PM

                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?



                Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the Word of God who incarnated as the man Jesus Christ. On another list there was a discussion of what sort of images should be used to depict Holy Wisdom. I would argue that, despite any existing precedents, any image of Holy Wisdom should be identifiably the image of Jesus Christ. I have at home an image of Holy Wisdom as a young male creating the world. It falls short of including the monograms for Jesus Christ but is otherwise impressive [by the hand of Robert Lenz, previously marketed through Bridge Building Images and maybe not currently available elsewhere either]. Peter



                phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com wrote:



                What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?



                from Orthodoxwiki:

                Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology, nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.



                Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of Orthodoxy?



                I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept and understood in a different way?



                Love in Christ,

                phos



                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

                Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.

                http://im.live com/Messenger/ IM/Join/Default. aspx?souce= EML_WL_ GoodCause



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              • Christopher Orr
                Here is a link to the text of the Canon to our Sweetest Lord Jesus, which is the version from the Jordanville Prayer Book (I am pretty sure, since the owner of
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                  Here is a link to the text of the Canon to our Sweetest Lord Jesus, which is
                  the version from the Jordanville Prayer Book (I am pretty sure, since the
                  owner of this site is a ROCOR priest):

                  http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/icxc_canon.htm

                  Christopher


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Christopher Orr
                  Here is a link to a wide variety of Canons, Akathists and Services for various saints, for those interested:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                    Here is a link to a wide variety of Canons, Akathists and Services for
                    various saints, for those interested:

                    http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/akathists.htm

                    Christopher


                    On 6/3/08, Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Here is a link to the text of the Canon to our Sweetest Lord Jesus, which
                    > is the version from the Jordanville Prayer Book (I am pretty sure, since the
                    > owner of this site is a ROCOR priest):
                    >
                    > http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/icxc_canon.htm
                    >
                    > Christopher
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                    Let me add tangentally that this canon is one of the three canons which in Russian use are advised for communicant to read as part of the preparation for
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                      Let me add tangentally that this canon is one of the three canons which in Russian use are advised for communicant to read as part of the preparation for communion along with the canon to the Mother of God, the canon to the Guardian Angel and the other prayers for before communion. There are also prayers after communion. These are spiritually nourishing. Peter

                      Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote: Here is a link to the text of the Canon to our Sweetest Lord Jesus, which is
                      the version from the Jordanville Prayer Book (I am pretty sure, since the
                      owner of this site is a ROCOR priest):

                      http://pages.prodigy.net/frjohnwhiteford/icxc_canon.htm

                      Christopher

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • randall hay
                      Phos, I checked, and actually it s in neither! Sorry about that. It s found in the seventh ode in the canon to the guardian angel, which, as Peter mentioned,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                        Phos, I checked, and actually it's in neither! Sorry about that. It's found in the seventh ode in the canon to the guardian angel, which, as Peter mentioned, is part of the weekly prayers of preparation for Eucharist:

                        Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit:

                        My whole soul is disgraced by the evil thoughts and deeds I have brought upon me, but make haste, O my guide, and grant me healing with good thoughts, that I may be inclined always to the right way.

                        Both now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen

                        To Jesus: O Wisdom of the High Personified, for the sake of the Theotokos, fill with wisdom and divine strength all that faithfully cry: O God of our fathers, blessed art Thou.


                        In Christ,
                        R.

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: "phos_hilarion@..." <phos_hilarion@...>
                        To: lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:39:26 AM
                        Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?



                        Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus on Myriobiblos. I found an Akathist to our Sweetest Lord Jesus Christ and also a Canon to our Lord Jesus Christ - are either of these the one to which you refer? Forgive me, I'm not very familiar with your liturgy.

                        Christopher and Peter, thanks for your answers also. They were very helpful to me.
                        Love in Christ,
                        phos

                        To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                        From: stortford@sbcglobal .net
                        Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:09:41 -0700
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Wisdom?

                        Peter put it very nicely here. The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus (used quite commonly) refers to Christ as "Wisdom of the Most High personified. " OT references to wisdom in this sense are taken this way....

                        The sophiological heresy is a fairly recent one that arose in Russian circles...I' ve heard it still exists (apparently there's a Protestant professor at nearby Butler's Christian Theological Seminary who's a great proponent) but I've never met a sophiogist in person.

                        The Hagia Sophia icon predates the heresy by many centuries, and is symbolic...my Russian one has Christ featured prominently- --

                        Subdeacon Randy

                        ----- Original Message ----

                        From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@ yahoo.com>

                        To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com

                        Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 3:58:58 PM

                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Wisdom?

                        Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the Word of God who incarnated as the man Jesus Christ. On another list there was a discussion of what sort of images should be used to depict Holy Wisdom. I would argue that, despite any existing precedents, any image of Holy Wisdom should be identifiably the image of Jesus Christ. I have at home an image of Holy Wisdom as a young male creating the world. It falls short of including the monograms for Jesus Christ but is otherwise impressive [by the hand of Robert Lenz, previously marketed through Bridge Building Images and maybe not currently available elsewhere either]. Peter

                        phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com wrote:

                        What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?

                        from Orthodoxwiki:

                        Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology, nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.

                        Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of Orthodoxy?

                        I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept and understood in a different way?

                        Love in Christ,

                        phos

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

                        Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.

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                      • randall hay
                        ... R. ... From: phos_hilarion@hotmail.com To: lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:39:26 AM
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                          ----By the way, I'll attach a copy of the canons for Communion. The ones to Christ, the Theotokos and Guardian Angel are interwoven (there is a particular way to do three canons together), followed by the canon for Holy Communion and then more pre-Communion prayers....these are the most recent version from the Jordanville Prayer Book (except a few of the ones toward the end are a different translation)---
                          R.


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: "phos_hilarion@..." <phos_hilarion@...>
                          To: lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:39:26 AM
                          Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?



                          Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus on Myriobiblos. I found an Akathist to our Sweetest Lord Jesus Christ and also a Canon to our Lord Jesus Christ - are either of these the one to which you refer? Forgive me, I'm not very familiar with your liturgy.

                          Christopher and Peter, thanks for your answers also. They were very helpful to me.
                          Love in Christ,
                          phos

                          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                          From: stortford@sbcglobal .net
                          Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:09:41 -0700
                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Wisdom?

                          Peter put it very nicely here. The Canon to Our Sweetest Jesus (used quite commonly) refers to Christ as "Wisdom of the Most High personified. " OT references to wisdom in this sense are taken this way....

                          The sophiological heresy is a fairly recent one that arose in Russian circles...I' ve heard it still exists (apparently there's a Protestant professor at nearby Butler's Christian Theological Seminary who's a great proponent) but I've never met a sophiogist in person.

                          The Hagia Sophia icon predates the heresy by many centuries, and is symbolic...my Russian one has Christ featured prominently- --

                          Subdeacon Randy

                          ----- Original Message ----

                          From: BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@ yahoo.com>

                          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com

                          Sent: Monday, June 2, 2008 3:58:58 PM

                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Wisdom?

                          Though the Greek word SOPHIA has the grammatical feminine gender the Wisdom of God is (without gender or perhaps one should say includes all gender) the Word of God who incarnated as the man Jesus Christ. On another list there was a discussion of what sort of images should be used to depict Holy Wisdom. I would argue that, despite any existing precedents, any image of Holy Wisdom should be identifiably the image of Jesus Christ. I have at home an image of Holy Wisdom as a young male creating the world. It falls short of including the monograms for Jesus Christ but is otherwise impressive [by the hand of Robert Lenz, previously marketed through Bridge Building Images and maybe not currently available elsewhere either]. Peter

                          phos_hilarion@ hotmail.com wrote:

                          What is the proper Orthodox view of Wisdom/Sophia in the Book of Proverbs?

                          from Orthodoxwiki:

                          Sophianism (from Greek Óïöéá "wisdom") is a heresy which has been condemned by the Russian Orthodox Church. Sophianism has roots in Wisdom Theology, nineteenth and twentieth century Russian Theology, preeminently Sergius Bulgakov through the influence of Vladimir Solovyov, and contemporary feminism. Russian Orthodox Priest Georges Florovsky and Orthodox theologian Vladimir Lossky opposed the interjection of the deity Sophia. Vladimir Lossky stated that it was a misguided uniting together of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary into a single deity or hypostasis of God.

                          Was it only the Russian Orthodox Church that condemned it or all of Orthodoxy?

                          I've come across icons of Sophia - are they also condemned or are they kept and understood in a different way?

                          Love in Christ,

                          phos

                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

                          Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.

                          http://im.live. com/Messenger/ IM/Join/Default. aspx?souce= EML_WL_ GoodCause

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James Royal Prickett, Ph.D.
                          Since Yahoo will not allow attachments , here is a link to all of this communion preparation information: http://www.pomog.org/communion.shtml Having initially
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Since Yahoo will not allow attachments , here is a link to all of
                            this communion preparation information:

                            http://www.pomog.org/communion.shtml

                            Having initially discovered this online, and subsequently purchasing
                            the Jordanville Prayer Book, it has brought me to a most blessed
                            appreciation for and experience of communicating. For me this has
                            been a lifelong progression from my early participation in the old
                            Lutheran general confession, to a brief review of a few prayers right
                            before receiving, to some more serious thought about the gravity of
                            receiving Christ that necessitates much prayer, fasting, confession
                            and diligent preparation. Makes sense - we have an opportunity to
                            receive the King!

                            It was obvious that these Russian rules are a lot more strict than
                            what is practiced in the Greek Church to which I belong. But I did
                            find out from some of the older Greeks that they, to used to follow
                            the stricter ways years ago. Fortunately, there seems to be a slow
                            but discernible movement back toward the fuller practices, all of
                            which ostensibly bestow innumerable blessings on the participant.

                            JiMi

                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, randall hay
                            <stortford@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > ----By the way, I'll attach a copy of the canons for Communion. The
                            ones to Christ, the Theotokos and Guardian Angel are interwoven
                            (there is a particular way to do three canons together), followed by
                            the canon for Holy Communion and then more pre-Communion
                            prayers....these are the most recent version from the Jordanville
                            Prayer Book (except a few of the ones toward the end are a different
                            translation)---
                            > R.
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message ----
                            > From: "phos_hilarion@..." <phos_hilarion@...>
                            > To: lutheranslookingeast@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:39:26 AM
                            > Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Wisdom?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates
                            the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest
                            Jesus on Myriobiblos. I found an Akathist to our Sweetest Lord Jesus
                            Christ and also a Canon to our Lord Jesus Christ - are either of
                            these the one to which you refer? Forgive me, I'm not very familiar
                            with your liturgy.
                            >
                            > Christopher and Peter, thanks for your answers also. They were very
                            helpful to me.
                            > Love in Christ,
                            > phos
                            >
                          • randall hay
                            These rules are particularly strict....more so than any I have ever used. They are good practices, but are not generally mandatory. In fact, after having been
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              These rules are particularly strict....more so than any I have ever used. They are good practices, but are not generally mandatory.

                              In fact, after having been Orthodox ten years and visited a variety of archdioceses and monastery, I have never ever seen the cross brought to people who have communed after the service.

                              The traditional Russian and Serbian practices, in my experience, tend to be more strict than others...I belong to the Bulgarian diocese (under the Bulgarian patriarch) and these things are encouraged but not mandatory, except of course fasting prior to Communion. Confession must be "recent," but that's all.

                              On the other hand there's nothing more heartbreaking than Orthodox who disregard Eucharistic piety entirely....come in late, confess every two years, talk in the Communion line, leave early, etc.

                              The traditional practices of piety should certainly be encouraged, to bring people's spiritual lives forward...preparation can hardly be over-valued. On the other hand I think there's a reason they are not generally mandatory...

                              R.




                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...>
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:15:04 AM
                              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Wisdom?


                              Since Yahoo will not allow attachments , here is a link to all of
                              this communion preparation information:

                              http://www.pomog org/communion. shtml

                              Having initially discovered this online, and subsequently purchasing
                              the Jordanville Prayer Book, it has brought me to a most blessed
                              appreciation for and experience of communicating. For me this has
                              been a lifelong progression from my early participation in the old
                              Lutheran general confession, to a brief review of a few prayers right
                              before receiving, to some more serious thought about the gravity of
                              receiving Christ that necessitates much prayer, fasting, confession
                              and diligent preparation. Makes sense - we have an opportunity to
                              receive the King!

                              It was obvious that these Russian rules are a lot more strict than
                              what is practiced in the Greek Church to which I belong. But I did
                              find out from some of the older Greeks that they, to used to follow
                              the stricter ways years ago. Fortunately, there seems to be a slow
                              but discernible movement back toward the fuller practices, all of
                              which ostensibly bestow innumerable blessings on the participant.

                              JiMi

                              --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, randall hay
                              <stortford@. ..> wrote:
                              >
                              > ----By the way, I'll attach a copy of the canons for Communion. The
                              ones to Christ, the Theotokos and Guardian Angel are interwoven
                              (there is a particular way to do three canons together), followed by
                              the canon for Holy Communion and then more pre-Communion
                              prayers....these are the most recent version from the Jordanville
                              Prayer Book (except a few of the ones toward the end are a different
                              translation) ---
                              > R.
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: "phos_hilarion@ ..." <phos_hilarion@ ...>
                              > To: lutheranslookingeas t@yahoogroups. com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:39:26 AM
                              > Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Wisdom?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates
                              the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest
                              Jesus on Myriobiblos. I found an Akathist to our Sweetest Lord Jesus
                              Christ and also a Canon to our Lord Jesus Christ - are either of
                              these the one to which you refer? Forgive me, I'm not very familiar
                              with your liturgy.
                              >
                              > Christopher and Peter, thanks for your answers also. They were very
                              helpful to me.
                              > Love in Christ,
                              > phos
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Christopher Orr
                              What s mandatory is what your priest tells you to do, which should be more than nothing and include at least some prayers and fasting for at least the morning
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                What's mandatory is what your priest tells you to do, which should be more
                                than nothing and include at least some prayers and fasting for at least the
                                morning prior to communing - unless there is a health concern that keeps one
                                from fasting (sickness is already fasting; fasting is voluntary 'sickness'
                                and suffering).

                                I fast from bedtime the night before communing and say just the prayers
                                before communion themselves, not the canons. That has been my rule since
                                2001. When I was attending just one OCA parish (rather than splitting
                                between GOA and OCA) I would also only commune if I had attended a
                                preparatory service the evening before, whether Vespers or Vigil, or in the
                                Greek tradition at least Orthros immediately before Liturgy.

                                Christopher


                                On 6/4/08, randall hay <stortford@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > These rules are particularly strict....more so than any I have ever
                                > used. They are good practices, but are not generally mandatory.
                                >
                                > In fact, after having been Orthodox ten years and visited a variety of
                                > archdioceses and monastery, I have never ever seen the cross brought to
                                > people who have communed after the service.
                                >
                                > The traditional Russian and Serbian practices, in my experience, tend to be
                                > more strict than others...I belong to the Bulgarian diocese (under the
                                > Bulgarian patriarch) and these things are encouraged but not mandatory,
                                > except of course fasting prior to Communion. Confession must be "recent,"
                                > but that's all.
                                >
                                > On the other hand there's nothing more heartbreaking than Orthodox who
                                > disregard Eucharistic piety entirely....come in late, confess every two
                                > years, talk in the Communion line, leave early, etc.
                                >
                                > The traditional practices of piety should certainly be encouraged, to bring
                                > people's spiritual lives forward...preparation can hardly be over-valued. On
                                > the other hand I think there's a reason they are not generally mandatory...
                                >
                                > R.
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...<jimi%40k3nrocks.com>
                                > >
                                > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 7:15:04 AM
                                > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Wisdom?
                                >
                                > Since Yahoo will not allow attachments , here is a link to all of
                                > this communion preparation information:
                                >
                                > http://www.pomog org/communion. shtml
                                >
                                > Having initially discovered this online, and subsequently purchasing
                                > the Jordanville Prayer Book, it has brought me to a most blessed
                                > appreciation for and experience of communicating. For me this has
                                > been a lifelong progression from my early participation in the old
                                > Lutheran general confession, to a brief review of a few prayers right
                                > before receiving, to some more serious thought about the gravity of
                                > receiving Christ that necessitates much prayer, fasting, confession
                                > and diligent preparation. Makes sense - we have an opportunity to
                                > receive the King!
                                >
                                > It was obvious that these Russian rules are a lot more strict than
                                > what is practiced in the Greek Church to which I belong. But I did
                                > find out from some of the older Greeks that they, to used to follow
                                > the stricter ways years ago. Fortunately, there seems to be a slow
                                > but discernible movement back toward the fuller practices, all of
                                > which ostensibly bestow innumerable blessings on the participant.
                                >
                                > JiMi
                                >
                                > --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, randall hay
                                > <stortford@. ..> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > ----By the way, I'll attach a copy of the canons for Communion. The
                                > ones to Christ, the Theotokos and Guardian Angel are interwoven
                                > (there is a particular way to do three canons together), followed by
                                > the canon for Holy Communion and then more pre-Communion
                                > prayers....these are the most recent version from the Jordanville
                                > Prayer Book (except a few of the ones toward the end are a different
                                > translation) ---
                                > > R.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message ----
                                > > From: "phos_hilarion@ ..." <phos_hilarion@ ...>
                                > > To: lutheranslookingeas t@yahoogroups. com
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, June 3, 2008 11:39:26 AM
                                > > Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Wisdom?
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thank you Subdeacon Randy for pointing out that the icon predates
                                > the heresy. I tried to find the words to The Canon to Our Sweetest
                                > Jesus on Myriobiblos. I found an Akathist to our Sweetest Lord Jesus
                                > Christ and also a Canon to our Lord Jesus Christ - are either of
                                > these the one to which you refer? Forgive me, I'm not very familiar
                                > with your liturgy.
                                > >
                                > > Christopher and Peter, thanks for your answers also. They were very
                                > helpful to me.
                                > > Love in Christ,
                                > > phos
                                > >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                                >
                                >



                                --
                                Christopher Orr
                                917 848 7787 Mobile
                                xcjorr@...


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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