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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons

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  • Christopher Orr
    I find both Lutheran and Orthodox sermons to be lacking due to their not discussing the Koran enough. My local imam s sermons are far, far superior. I have
    Message 1 of 15 , May 29 10:26 AM
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      I find both Lutheran and Orthodox sermons to be lacking due to their not
      discussing the Koran enough. My local imam's sermons are far, far superior.

      I have found that Lutheran sermons are far more crafted moving from point to
      point to prove a point, to logically, rationally reach a position. I have
      rarely seen an Orthodox priest read from a prepared text. I have seen
      priests refer to notes, points or quotations, but rarely a text. I have
      heard priests say that they read and study during the week, note the
      liturgical hymns of the Church for the day, feast, season, etc., perhaps
      read commentary in the Fathers (ancient or modern) and then they pray, pick
      up the cross and open their mouths.

      It should be noted that a sermon is not 'required' at a Divine Liturgy and I
      have never heard one at a Liturgy at a monastery apart from when many laity
      may be visiting or members of the Sunday 'parish' community. The focus of
      the Liturgy is meeting Christ Himself in the Eucharist, not in having one of
      His servants tell us about him. One doesn't invite a friend to describe you
      to your date.

      The difference between Orthodox and Lutheran can be seen in its
      architecture. The pulpit is normally minimal in a traditional Orthodox
      temple whereas the altar and baladachine, and the windows into heaven
      (iconostasis) predominate in an Orthodox church.

      Christopher


      On 5/29/08, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > How do you think Orthodox and Lutheran sermons differ? I've heard the
      > critique that Lutheran sermons are better (but then again, that was from a
      > Lutheran) especially because Lutheran sermons focus on law and gospel.
      >
      > Love in Christ,
      > phos
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
      > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_GreaterGood
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      Christopher Orr
      917 848 7787 Mobile
      xcjorr@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
      I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day. At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much like a patristic reading. I took
      Message 2 of 15 , May 29 11:19 AM
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        I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.

        At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the intended put-down. Peter




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rosemarie Lieffring
        My priest does as Christopher s experience offers. He reads some, prays, makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said he speaks to the
        Message 3 of 15 , May 29 1:32 PM
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          My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads some, prays,
          makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said he speaks
          to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for
          word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit to guide him
          and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.

          I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran and the
          Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That hasn't been
          my experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of
          first terrorizing consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel
          just isn't there. I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken
          diagnostic.

          When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that Word and
          Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the focus of
          the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher pointed
          out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in importance
          (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable to the
          listener.

          Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could anyone
          recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R


          On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
          >
          > I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.
          >
          > At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much
          > like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the intended
          > put-down. Peter
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rosemarie Lieffring
          I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home from work tonight and there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall when I first
          Message 4 of 15 , May 29 7:18 PM
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            I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home from work tonight and
            there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall when I
            first started attending the Orthodox Church. Orthodox sermons are always
            talking about Love. Love within the Trinity, Love of God for us, our love
            for neighbor. The priest asks a leading question and the answer is Love.
            Always encouragement about this communion of Love. The Lutheran sermons I
            was familiar with didn't discuss Love so much.

            In fact I was listening to a AFR podcast of Father Thomas Hopko's while
            driving and it wasn't but a few minutes after this thought came to me when
            and sure enough...he started talking about love!

            On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
            rose.lieffring@...> wrote:

            > My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads some, prays,
            > makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said he speaks
            > to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for
            > word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit to guide him
            > and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.
            >
            > I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran and the
            > Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That been my
            > experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of first terrorizing
            > consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel just isn't there.
            > I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken diagnostic.
            >
            > When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that Word and
            > Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the focus of
            > the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher pointed
            > out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in importance
            > (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable to the
            > listener.
            >
            > Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could anyone
            > recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R
            >
            >
            > On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.
            >>
            >> At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much
            >> like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the intended
            >> put-down. Peter
            >>
            >>
            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dave @¿@¬
            Howdy! In my VERY LIMITED experience, Orthodox sermons are much shorter! My priest usually gives a short sermon on either a text of the day or a saint of the
            Message 5 of 15 , May 30 6:53 AM
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              Howdy!

              In my VERY LIMITED experience,
              Orthodox sermons are much shorter!

              My priest usually gives a short sermon on either
              a text of the day or a saint of the day.
            • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
              Thanks everyone! Among Lutherans it s common to find written sermons posted online but I hadn t had luck in finding many Orthodox sermons. If they don t write
              Message 6 of 15 , May 30 8:45 AM
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                Thanks everyone!
                Among Lutherans it's common to find written sermons posted online but I hadn't had luck in finding many Orthodox sermons. If they don't write out their manuscripts that explains why. I suppose I should be looking for podcasts instead. I have listened to Fr. Hopko via podcast before and enjoyed it.

                Rosemarie, you're right on when you say that Lutheran sermons don't discuss Love so much. Orthodox sermons are always talking about Love - I also observe that the *Orthodox* are always talking about Love, it's in the way you live and breathe it seems. It's what I find most attractive about Orthodoxy.

                Peter, that sounds like the best compliment one could get! :)

                Christopher, "My local imam's sermons are far, far superior." - Are you sure you ended up in the right building? ;) What is a baladachine? Interesting & apt point about what the architecture stresses as being the most important.

                Love in Christ,
                your little phos

                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                From: rose.lieffring@...
                Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:18:13 -0400
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons




















                I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home from work tonight and

                there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall when I

                first started attending the Orthodox Church. Orthodox sermons are always

                talking about Love. Love within the Trinity, Love of God for us, our love

                for neighbor. The priest asks a leading question and the answer is Love.

                Always encouragement about this communion of Love. The Lutheran sermons I

                was familiar with didn't discuss Love so much.



                In fact I was listening to a AFR podcast of Father Thomas Hopko's while

                driving and it wasn't but a few minutes after this thought came to me when

                and sure enough...he started talking about love!



                On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Rosemarie Lieffring <

                rose.lieffring@...> wrote:



                > My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads some, prays,

                > makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said he speaks

                > to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for

                > word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit to guide him

                > and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.

                >

                > I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran and the

                > Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That been my

                > experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of first terrorizing

                > consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel just isn't there.

                > I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken diagnostic.

                >

                > When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that Word and

                > Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the focus of

                > the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher pointed

                > out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in importance

                > (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable to the

                > listener.

                >

                > Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could anyone

                > recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R

                >

                >

                > On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:

                >>

                >> I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.

                >>

                >> At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much

                >> like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the intended

                >> put-down. Peter

                >>

                >>

                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >>

                >>

                >>

                >

                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























                _________________________________________________________________
                E-mail for the greater good. Join the i�m Initiative from Microsoft.
                http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Northland Words
                As a still-Lutheran east-looker, I am struck by the accuracy of this observation. And by how sad that fact is. We standing-firm conservative Lutherans
                Message 7 of 15 , May 30 10:36 AM
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                  As a still-Lutheran "east-looker," I am struck by the accuracy of this
                  observation. And by how sad that fact is.



                  We "standing-firm" conservative Lutherans tend to be far more concerned with
                  defining the ways in which we are differentiated from everyone else than we
                  are with proclaiming the love of our living Savior. Our Lutheran suspicion
                  of the Holy Spirit, infected by legal niggling about 500-year-old arguments
                  (we call this confessional Lutheranism), often causes us to lecture about
                  carefully developed rational syllogisms (often called catechesis), rather
                  than describing the actual omnipotence of Love. (We believe in love, as a
                  doctrinal statement-we're just leery of it when it actually happens. Just
                  as we believe that the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity-as long as He
                  doesn't actually do anything.)



                  And since a great many of our flocks have been catechized into the apathy
                  which is the hallmark of our precisely-defined creed, we tend to care very
                  little, one way or another, about what goes on in the pulpits, as long as
                  what is said there doesn't particularly invade the non-religious areas of
                  our lives (which tend to be very large). And we are not very often
                  disappointed in this hope. Our pastors, freed from the encumbrance of alert
                  congregations, often seem to us lay people to be more concerned with
                  pleasing each other, or with pleasing their seminary professors (and passing
                  the Wilkens diagnostic?), than they are with feeding us sheep. Not that we
                  Lutherans, in our non-somnambulant moments, want ear-tickling pleasantries
                  from our pulpits-but that our souls thirst for God, for the living God-where
                  can we go and meet with our God?



                  Yes, by all means-even the paltry academic lectures which often pass for
                  Lutheran sermons can't dissipate that powerful love of the living Christ in
                  the eucharist! Praise Him!



                  There are very great exceptions to this observation, praise God. (Perhaps
                  they didn't do well in seminary?)



                  Daved



                  _____

                  From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Rosemarie
                  Lieffring
                  Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:18 PM
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons



                  I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home from work tonight and
                  there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall when I
                  first started attending the Orthodox Church. Orthodox sermons are always
                  talking about Love. Love within the Trinity, Love of God for us, our love
                  for neighbor. The priest asks a leading question and the answer is Love.
                  Always encouragement about this communion of Love. The Lutheran sermons I
                  was familiar with didn't discuss Love so much.

                  In fact I was listening to a AFR podcast of Father Thomas Hopko's while
                  driving and it wasn't but a few minutes after this thought came to me when
                  and sure enough...he started talking about love!

                  On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
                  rose.lieffring@ <mailto:rose.lieffring%40gmail.com> gmail.com> wrote:

                  > My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads some, prays,
                  > makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said he speaks
                  > to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for
                  > word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit to guide
                  him
                  > and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.
                  >
                  > I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran and the
                  > Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That been my
                  > experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of first
                  terrorizing
                  > consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel just isn't there.
                  > I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken diagnostic.
                  >
                  > When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that Word and
                  > Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the focus of
                  > the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher pointed
                  > out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in importance
                  > (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable to the
                  > listener.
                  >
                  > Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could anyone
                  > recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R
                  >
                  >
                  > On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@
                  <mailto:donpedrogordo%40yahoo.com> yahoo.com> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.
                  >>
                  >> At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much
                  >> like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the intended
                  >> put-down. Peter
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Christopher Orr
                  Baldaccino: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02217c.htm (RC source) Well, the traditional style of a mosque is actually the traditional style of an Eastern
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 30 10:53 AM
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                    Baldaccino: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02217c.htm (RC source)

                    Well, the traditional style of a mosque is actually the traditional style of
                    an Eastern Christian church taken over by the Muslims (e.g., Hagia Sophia in
                    Istanbul).

                    Christopher


                    On 5/30/08, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks everyone!
                    > Among Lutherans it's common to find written sermons posted online but I
                    > hadn't had luck in finding many Orthodox sermons. If they don't write out
                    > their manuscripts that explains why. I suppose I should be looking for
                    > podcasts instead. I have listened to Fr. Hopko via podcast before and
                    > enjoyed it.
                    >
                    > Rosemarie, you're right on when you say that Lutheran sermons don't discuss
                    > Love so much. Orthodox sermons are always talking about Love - I also
                    > observe that the *Orthodox* are always talking about Love, it's in the way
                    > you live and breathe it seems. It's what I find most attractive about
                    > Orthodoxy.
                    >
                    > Peter, that sounds like the best compliment one could get! :)
                    >
                    > Christopher, "My local imam's sermons are far, far superior." - Are you
                    > sure you ended up in the right building? ;) What is a baladachine?
                    > Interesting & apt point about what the architecture stresses as being the
                    > most important.
                    >
                    > Love in Christ,
                    > your little phos
                    >
                    > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: rose.lieffring@...
                    > Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:18:13 -0400
                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home from work
                    > tonight and
                    >
                    > there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall when I
                    >
                    > first started attending the Orthodox Church. Orthodox sermons are always
                    >
                    > talking about Love. Love within the Trinity, Love of God for us, our love
                    >
                    > for neighbor. The priest asks a leading question and the answer is Love.
                    >
                    > Always encouragement about this communion of Love. The Lutheran sermons I
                    >
                    > was familiar with didn't discuss Love so much.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In fact I was listening to a AFR podcast of Father Thomas Hopko's while
                    >
                    > driving and it wasn't but a few minutes after this thought came to me when
                    >
                    > and sure enough...he started talking about love!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
                    >
                    > rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads some, prays,
                    >
                    > > makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said he
                    > speaks
                    >
                    > > to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for
                    >
                    > > word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit to guide
                    > him
                    >
                    > > and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran and the
                    >
                    > > Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That been my
                    >
                    > > experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of first
                    > terrorizing
                    >
                    > > consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel just isn't there.
                    >
                    > > I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken diagnostic.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that Word and
                    >
                    > > Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the focus
                    > of
                    >
                    > > the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher pointed
                    >
                    > > out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in
                    > importance
                    >
                    > > (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable to the
                    >
                    > > listener.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could anyone
                    >
                    > > recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >> I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >> At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was too much
                    >
                    > >> like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the intended
                    >
                    > >> put-down. Peter
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >>
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
                    > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_GreaterGood
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Christopher Orr
                    917 848 7787 Mobile
                    xcjorr@...


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Christopher Orr
                    *There are very great exceptions to this observation, praise God. (Perhaps they didn t do well in seminary?)* I just wanted to underline this point of David s
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 30 11:06 AM
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                      *There are very great exceptions to this observation, praise God. (Perhaps
                      they didn't do well in seminary?)*

                      I just wanted to underline this point of David's and also note that it
                      applies to Orthodoxy. What we are talking about here are generalities,
                      various 'groups' and individuals will not fit these descriptions.

                      While the 'quality' of a particular sermon may vary, the general format,
                      content, style, degree of importance, etc. point to how the church views
                      itself and the place of the sermon and sacraments overall. While these
                      tendencies are not proof or sources, they can be significant signposts as to
                      what is going on. A prime example is the development of less traditionally
                      liturgical forms of worship and the use of modern art and architecture in
                      Western Christian churches over the past 100 years - a similar signpost
                      would be the development of wetsern ecclesiastical art during and since the
                      Renaissance. Something has been changing. The follow up question is
                      whether that change is or has been valid or not as compared with the way the
                      Church 'developed' in various ways in the Ante- and Post-Nicene periods.

                      Christopher


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Northland Words
                      Yes-an essential observation. Thank you. These generalities are only generalities. They may be useful, as I think you suggest, if we regard them more as
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 30 11:29 AM
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                        Yes-an essential observation. Thank you.



                        These generalities are only generalities. They may be useful, as I think
                        you suggest, if we regard them more as "signposts" or "symptoms" than as
                        anything absolute and definite. A temperature of 102 doesn't mean very much
                        in itself, but as one among many symptoms, it may point us to diagnose a
                        problem. (What do these symptoms, if accurate, suggest about our Lutheran
                        relationship with the God of Love?)



                        More to the point (and inherent, I think, in Christopher's observation), a
                        diagnosis accurately considering these symptoms can point us to possible
                        treatments. Of course, in the end, the signposts always point to the same
                        Lord. The treatments are never the cure: we know Who the cure is! And we
                        know where to receive Him!



                        Thanks,

                        Daved



                        _____

                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
                        Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:07 PM
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons



                        *There are very great exceptions to this observation, praise God. (Perhaps
                        they didn't do well in seminary?)*

                        I just wanted to underline this point of David's and also note that it
                        applies to Orthodoxy. What we are talking about here are generalities,
                        various 'groups' and individuals will not fit these descriptions.

                        While the 'quality' of a particular sermon may vary, the general format,
                        content, style, degree of importance, etc. point to how the church views
                        itself and the place of the sermon and sacraments overall. While these
                        tendencies are not proof or sources, they can be significant signposts as to
                        what is going on. A prime example is the development of less traditionally
                        liturgical forms of worship and the use of modern art and architecture in
                        Western Christian churches over the past 100 years - a similar signpost
                        would be the development of wetsern ecclesiastical art during and since the
                        Renaissance. Something has been changing. The follow up question is
                        whether that change is or has been valid or not as compared with the way the
                        Church 'developed' in various ways in the Ante- and Post-Nicene periods.

                        Christopher

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Christopher Orr
                        Well, for me Orthodoxy has pointed to faith in the God Who is Love rather than the God I formulated in my head. Heart vs. Head, but in a way quite different
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 30 11:50 AM
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                          Well, for me Orthodoxy has pointed to faith in the God Who is Love rather
                          than the God I formulated in my head. Heart vs. Head, but in a way quite
                          different than how that dialetic works out in Western Christianity (e.g.,
                          Confessional vs. Pietist Lutherans; Methodist vs. Anglo-Catholic Anglicans,
                          etc.).

                          Using the sickness analogy, I would also note that anger is a normal (in our
                          fallen state) aspect of the grieving process. However, it is only one of
                          many steps and must be passed beyond. It is easy for converts to any faith
                          (or lack thereof) to boil their hearts in the anger they are feeling and can
                          do more damage in the end than if they simply stayed put in their original
                          confession.

                          Christopher


                          On 5/30/08, Northland Words <NorthlandWords@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yes-an essential observation. Thank you.
                          >
                          > These generalities are only generalities. They may be useful, as I think
                          > you suggest, if we regard them more as "signposts" or "symptoms" than as
                          > anything absolute and definite. A temperature of 102 doesn't mean very much
                          > in itself, but as one among many symptoms, it may point us to diagnose a
                          > problem. (What do these symptoms, if accurate, suggest about our Lutheran
                          > relationship with the God of Love?)
                          >
                          > More to the point (and inherent, I think, in Christopher's observation), a
                          > diagnosis accurately considering these symptoms can point us to possible
                          > treatments. Of course, in the end, the signposts always point to the same
                          > Lord. The treatments are never the cure: we know Who the cure is! And we
                          > know where to receive Him!
                          >
                          > Thanks,
                          >
                          > Daved
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>]
                          > On Behalf Of Christopher Orr
                          > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:07 PM
                          > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons
                          >
                          > *There are very great exceptions to this observation, praise God. (Perhaps
                          > they didn't do well in seminary?)*
                          >
                          > I just wanted to underline this point of David's and also note that it
                          > applies to Orthodoxy. What we are talking about here are generalities,
                          > various 'groups' and individuals will not fit these descriptions.
                          >
                          > While the 'quality' of a particular sermon may vary, the general format,
                          > content, style, degree of importance, etc. point to how the church views
                          > itself and the place of the sermon and sacraments overall. While these
                          > tendencies are not proof or sources, they can be significant signposts as
                          > to
                          > what is going on. A prime example is the development of less traditionally
                          > liturgical forms of worship and the use of modern art and architecture in
                          > Western Christian churches over the past 100 years - a similar signpost
                          > would be the development of wetsern ecclesiastical art during and since the
                          > Renaissance. Something has been changing. The follow up question is
                          > whether that change is or has been valid or not as compared with the way
                          > the
                          > Church 'developed' in various ways in the Ante- and Post-Nicene periods.
                          >
                          > Christopher
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          Christopher Orr
                          917 848 7787 Mobile
                          xcjorr@...


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
                          Using the sickness analogy, I would also note that anger is a normal (in our fallen state) aspect of the grieving process. However, it is only one of many
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 30 1:41 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            "Using the sickness analogy, I would also note that anger is a normal (in our

                            fallen state) aspect of the grieving process. However, it is only one of

                            many steps and must be passed beyond. It is easy for converts to any faith

                            (or lack thereof) to boil their hearts in the anger they are feeling and can

                            do more damage in the end than if they simply stayed put in their original

                            confession."

                            Those are very wise words, especially for our poor Lutheran ears.
                            Continue in your prayers for us.
                            Love in Christ,
                            phos

                            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                            From: xcjorr@...
                            Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 14:50:08 -0400
                            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons




















                            Well, for me Orthodoxy has pointed to faith in the God Who is Love rather

                            than the God I formulated in my head. Heart vs. Head, but in a way quite

                            different than how that dialetic works out in Western Christianity (e.g.,

                            Confessional vs. Pietist Lutherans; Methodist vs. Anglo-Catholic Anglicans,

                            etc.).



                            Using the sickness analogy, I would also note that anger is a normal (in our

                            fallen state) aspect of the grieving process. However, it is only one of

                            many steps and must be passed beyond. It is easy for converts to any faith

                            (or lack thereof) to boil their hearts in the anger they are feeling and can

                            do more damage in the end than if they simply stayed put in their original

                            confession.



                            Christopher



                            On 5/30/08, Northland Words <NorthlandWords@...> wrote:

                            >

                            > Yes-an essential observation. Thank you.

                            >

                            > These generalities are only generalities. They may be useful, as I think

                            > you suggest, if we regard them more as "signposts" or "symptoms" than as

                            > anything absolute and definite. A temperature of 102 doesn't mean very much

                            > in itself, but as one among many symptoms, it may point us to diagnose a

                            > problem. (What do these symptoms, if accurate, suggest about our Lutheran

                            > relationship with the God of Love?)

                            >

                            > More to the point (and inherent, I think, in Christopher's observation), a

                            > diagnosis accurately considering these symptoms can point us to possible

                            > treatments. Of course, in the end, the signposts always point to the same

                            > Lord. The treatments are never the cure: we know Who the cure is! And we

                            > know where to receive Him!

                            >

                            > Thanks,

                            >

                            > Daved

                            >

                            > _____

                            >

                            > From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>

                            > [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>]

                            > On Behalf Of Christopher Orr

                            > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 1:07 PM

                            > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>

                            > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons

                            >

                            > *There are very great exceptions to this observation, praise God. (Perhaps

                            > they didn't do well in seminary?)*

                            >

                            > I just wanted to underline this point of David's and also note that it

                            > applies to Orthodoxy. What we are talking about here are generalities,

                            > various 'groups' and individuals will not fit these descriptions.

                            >

                            > While the 'quality' of a particular sermon may vary, the general format,

                            > content, style, degree of importance, etc. point to how the church views

                            > itself and the place of the sermon and sacraments overall. While these

                            > tendencies are not proof or sources, they can be significant signposts as

                            > to

                            > what is going on. A prime example is the development of less traditionally

                            > liturgical forms of worship and the use of modern art and architecture in

                            > Western Christian churches over the past 100 years - a similar signpost

                            > would be the development of wetsern ecclesiastical art during and since the

                            > Renaissance. Something has been changing. The follow up question is

                            > whether that change is or has been valid or not as compared with the way

                            > the

                            > Church 'developed' in various ways in the Ante- and Post-Nicene periods.

                            >

                            > Christopher

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            >

                            >

                            >



                            --

                            Christopher Orr

                            917 848 7787 Mobile

                            xcjorr@...



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
























                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
                            http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • James Royal Prickett, Ph.D.
                            Here is a link to the written homilies of Fr. David Moser (ROCOR) of Boise, Idaho: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/ jr ... but I hadn t had luck in
                            Message 13 of 15 , May 31 12:09 AM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Here is a link to the written homilies of Fr. David Moser (ROCOR) of
                              Boise, Idaho:

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/

                              jr

                              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, <phos_hilarion@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks everyone!
                              > Among Lutherans it's common to find written sermons posted online
                              but I hadn't had luck in finding many Orthodox sermons. If they don't
                              write out their manuscripts that explains why. I suppose I should be
                              looking for podcasts instead. I have listened to Fr. Hopko via
                              podcast before and enjoyed it.
                              >
                              > Rosemarie, you're right on when you say that Lutheran sermons don't
                              discuss Love so much. Orthodox sermons are always talking about Love -
                              I also observe that the *Orthodox* are always talking about Love,
                              it's in the way you live and breathe it seems. It's what I find most
                              attractive about Orthodoxy.
                              >
                              > Peter, that sounds like the best compliment one could get! :)
                              >
                              > Christopher, "My local imam's sermons are far, far superior." - Are
                              you sure you ended up in the right building? ;) What is a
                              baladachine? Interesting & apt point about what the architecture
                              stresses as being the most important.
                              >
                              > Love in Christ,
                              > your little phos
                              >
                              > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: rose.lieffring@...
                              > Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:18:13 -0400
                              > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home
                              from work tonight and
                              >
                              > there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall
                              when I
                              >
                              > first started attending the Orthodox Church. Orthodox sermons are
                              always
                              >
                              > talking about Love. Love within the Trinity, Love of God for us,
                              our love
                              >
                              > for neighbor. The priest asks a leading question and the answer is
                              Love.
                              >
                              > Always encouragement about this communion of Love. The Lutheran
                              sermons I
                              >
                              > was familiar with didn't discuss Love so much.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > In fact I was listening to a AFR podcast of Father Thomas Hopko's
                              while
                              >
                              > driving and it wasn't but a few minutes after this thought came to
                              me when
                              >
                              > and sure enough...he started talking about love!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
                              >
                              > rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads
                              some, prays,
                              >
                              > > makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said
                              he speaks
                              >
                              > > to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for
                              >
                              > > word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit
                              to guide him
                              >
                              > > and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran
                              and the
                              >
                              > > Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That
                              been my
                              >
                              > > experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of first
                              terrorizing
                              >
                              > > consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel just
                              isn't there.
                              >
                              > > I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken diagnostic.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that
                              Word and
                              >
                              > > Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the
                              focus of
                              >
                              > > the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher
                              pointed
                              >
                              > > out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in
                              importance
                              >
                              > > (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable
                              to the
                              >
                              > > listener.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could
                              anyone
                              >
                              > > recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >> I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >> At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was
                              too much
                              >
                              > >> like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the
                              intended
                              >
                              > >> put-down. Peter
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >>
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _________________________________________________________________
                              > E-mail for the greater good. Join the i'm Initiative from Microsoft.
                              > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_
                              GreaterGood
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • orthogrammy
                              http://www.dynamispublications.org/ DYNAMIS! A publication of St. George Orthodox Christian Cathedral Wichita, KS St. John 9:1-38 (6/1) CHRIST IS RISEN!
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jun 1, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                http://www.dynamispublications.org/

                                DYNAMIS!
                                A publication of St. George Orthodox Christian Cathedral
                                Wichita, KS

                                St. John 9:1-38 (6/1) CHRIST IS RISEN! Gospel, Sunday of the
                                Blindman: 6th of Pascha



                                Open and Closed Minds: St. John 9:1-38, especially vs. 24: "Give God
                                the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner." Trying to hold a
                                heart to heart conversation with someone who has all of life's
                                mysteries `answered,' considers every question `settled,' and brushes
                                away new insights with determined conclusions is both disappointing
                                and enervating. By contrast, talking when others will freely examine
                                life's basic questions, share from the heart, and look forward to
                                learning from every conversation, energizes, lifts, and builds up the
                                soul.

                                In this present passage, the Pharisees' reactions to the healing of
                                the man born blind exemplify classic, stubborn resistance to open
                                dialog. Rather than welcome the man's healing as a sign of God's
                                presence, they grew more adamant in opposition and argumentative
                                concerning the Lord Jesus (vs. 22). The man who was healed, by
                                contrast, exemplifies a heart and mind open to dialog and appreciative
                                of God's mysterious workings in the world. Notice six ways the
                                Pharisees defended against new truth even as the healed man embraced
                                truth and Truth Himself.

                                1) In accusing the Lord of violating the Sabbath (vs. 16), some of the
                                Pharisees closed themselves off from the joy of the healing, though
                                others of them could not accept their reasonings (Jn. 9:16). The one
                                who was healed said, "He is a prophet" (vs. 17). Both in experience
                                and by conclusion, he testified to God. "O taste and see that the
                                Lord is good" (Ps. 33:8).

                                2) The Pharisees sought to explain away what had happened by
                                questioning a healing visible for all to see and by impugning the
                                honesty of the witnesses: "Is this your son,who you say was born
                                blind? How then does he now see?" (vs. 19). Here alone, three
                                different attacks are made, but plain truth and simple replies force
                                them to abandon their earlier approach

                                3) "The Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed...he would be
                                put out of the synagogue" (vs. 22), exposes the hidden motives behind
                                their persistent interrogation associated with the healing - the
                                threat of social banishment. The man's parents rightly referred them
                                to the man himself. The newly sighted man spoke for himself and God -
                                and quite capably.

                                4) "Labeling" is a tried and true method of intimidation to silence
                                the truth. Notice that Jesus is called a "sinner" but no
                                substantiating evidence is offered. In addition, they take the role
                                of `impeccable' authority. Note the emphatic "we" (vs. 24),
                                grammatically underscored in the original. The Jews retreated into
                                "specialist" knowledge in order to assert a "truth" with no basis in
                                fact - a familiar ploy: "Science has shown...," "All the evidence
                                proves...," "Those who have looked into the matter know...." On the
                                other hand, the blind man brushes aside all these tactics and plainly
                                states the facts. "...though I was blind, now I see" (vs. 25).

                                5) When it became clear that all the Pharisees tactics were failing,
                                the Lord's opponents resorted to discrediting the witness himself.
                                "You are His disciple, but we are Moses' disciples" (vs. 28). They
                                also appeal to "higher" authorities and attempt to "expose" the facts
                                of the case as worthless. They even attribute prejudice to the man
                                who had been healed! The man's reply is a classic example of one who
                                is growing in strength as he is attacked for his faith. He easily
                                reaches the conclusion they reject: "If this man were not from God, He
                                could do nothing" (vs. 33). They in turn continue to impugn the
                                healed man's worth as a person (vs. 34).

                                6) Finally, the Jews take the "ultimate" resort of the implacably
                                self-assured: they thrust the man away from them rather than face his
                                truth (vs. 34). When the man was thus rejected the Lord came to him
                                and revealed Himself as God. Of course, the man worshiped Him (vs. 38).

                                Illumine our hearts, O Master Who loveth mankind, with the pure light
                                of divine knowledge, and open the eyes of our minds to the
                                understanding of Thy Gospel teachings.

                                Return to the June Calendar

                                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "James Royal Prickett,
                                Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Here is a link to the written homilies of Fr. David Moser (ROCOR) of
                                > Boise, Idaho:
                                >
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/propoved/
                                >
                                > jr
                                >
                                > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, <phos_hilarion@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thanks everyone!
                                > > Among Lutherans it's common to find written sermons posted online
                                > but I hadn't had luck in finding many Orthodox sermons. If they don't
                                > write out their manuscripts that explains why. I suppose I should be
                                > looking for podcasts instead. I have listened to Fr. Hopko via
                                > podcast before and enjoyed it.
                                > >
                                > > Rosemarie, you're right on when you say that Lutheran sermons don't
                                > discuss Love so much. Orthodox sermons are always talking about Love -
                                > I also observe that the *Orthodox* are always talking about Love,
                                > it's in the way you live and breathe it seems. It's what I find most
                                > attractive about Orthodoxy.
                                > >
                                > > Peter, that sounds like the best compliment one could get! :)
                                > >
                                > > Christopher, "My local imam's sermons are far, far superior." - Are
                                > you sure you ended up in the right building? ;) What is a
                                > baladachine? Interesting & apt point about what the architecture
                                > stresses as being the most important.
                                > >
                                > > Love in Christ,
                                > > your little phos
                                > >
                                > > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                > > From: rose.lieffring@
                                > > Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 22:18:13 -0400
                                > > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodox Sermons
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > I was thinking on this a bit more during my drive home
                                > from work tonight and
                                > >
                                > > there was one very obvious difference in the sermons that I recall
                                > when I
                                > >
                                > > first started attending the Orthodox Church. Orthodox sermons are
                                > always
                                > >
                                > > talking about Love. Love within the Trinity, Love of God for us,
                                > our love
                                > >
                                > > for neighbor. The priest asks a leading question and the answer is
                                > Love.
                                > >
                                > > Always encouragement about this communion of Love. The Lutheran
                                > sermons I
                                > >
                                > > was familiar with didn't discuss Love so much.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > In fact I was listening to a AFR podcast of Father Thomas Hopko's
                                > while
                                > >
                                > > driving and it wasn't but a few minutes after this thought came to
                                > me when
                                > >
                                > > and sure enough...he started talking about love!
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Rosemarie Lieffring <
                                > >
                                > > rose.lieffring@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > My priest does as Christopher's experience offers. He reads
                                > some, prays,
                                > >
                                > > > makes some notes. I asked him about prepared sermons and he said
                                > he speaks
                                > >
                                > > > to the people who are there so he isn't really tied to a word for
                                > >
                                > > > word prepared text. Quite honestly, he expects the Holy Spirit
                                > to guide him
                                > >
                                > > > and from my vantage point, he is not left unaided.
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > > I think the sermons are different. Lutheran sermons are Lutheran
                                > and the
                                > >
                                > > > Law and Gospel are intentionally and precisely separated. That
                                > been my
                                > >
                                > > > experience in Orthodox sermons. The focus on a formula of first
                                > terrorizing
                                > >
                                > > > consciences with Law and then soothing them with Gospel just
                                > isn't there.
                                > >
                                > > > I suspect my priest's sermon would fail the Wilken diagnostic.
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > > When I took my Lutheran Lay Ministry studies I was taught that
                                > Word and
                                > >
                                > > > Sacrament are equal means of grace but in the Orthodox Church the
                                > focus of
                                > >
                                > > > the Divine Liturgy is on Christ in the Eucharist as Christopher
                                > pointed
                                > >
                                > > > out. So...there is a difference then in theology/formula and in
                                > importance
                                > >
                                > > > (priority) of the sermon which is I would expect to be detectable
                                > to the
                                > >
                                > > > listener.
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > > Don't some of the Orthodox priests have sermon podcasts? Could
                                > anyone
                                > >
                                > > > recommend some representative ones to phos?-----R
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > > On 5/29/08, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim <donpedrogordo@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >> I vote for sermons that apply the gospel of the day.
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >> At school someone dissed me for giving a short sermon that was
                                > too much
                                > >
                                > > >> like a patristic reading. I took it as a compliment despite the
                                > intended
                                > >
                                > > >> put-down. Peter
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >>
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
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