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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box

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  • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
    Do try thinking in a different pattern. Rather than defining what is of the essence and what is peripheral [a scholastic approach], Orthodoxy embraces the
    Message 1 of 11 , May 10, 2008
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      Do try thinking in a different pattern. Rather than defining what is of the essence and what is peripheral [a scholastic approach], Orthodoxy embraces the experience as a spiritual whole. The boundaries between beneficial and necessary are blurred. It depends on who you are and where you are in your spiritual growth.
      Lutheran theologians acknowledge along with Orthodoxy that only the man who really prays is capable of true theology: We speak not in well spun tales but what we have ourselves seen and heard.
      These things are organically connected and living. Like the old question of what is the cat? The cat on the dissecting table is but a dead cat. The cat in your lap...well that is quite different! Our task is not so much to talk about God as to talk to Him...and listen. In Jesus we encounter the living God, both a fearful and joyous meeting. Peter

      Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
      The big problem that I am running into is that people
      can not comprehend my differentiation between:
      BENEFICIAL and NECESSARY!



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    • Travis (Constantine) Stolz
      Good morning, Dave.   Christ is risen!   Perhaps it isn t the case that people cannot comprehend your differentiation, but rather that they find it
      Message 2 of 11 , May 14, 2008
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        Good morning, Dave.
         
        Christ is risen!
         
        Perhaps it isn't the case that people cannot comprehend your differentiation, but rather that they find it unnecessary. And only a decade to develop an Orthodox mindset? Good heavens! Why the rush?

        Yours in Christ,
        Travis (Constantine)

        _______________________
        Travis (Constantine) Stolz
        travis.stolz@...

        --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

        From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 6:18 PM






        The big problem that I am running into is that people
        can not comprehend my differentiation between:
        BENEFICIAL
        and
        NECESSARY!

        i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
        do it!"

        I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
        an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

        Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
        a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->

        --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
        <donpedrogordo@ ...> wrote:
        >
        > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
        >
        > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
        > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
        line.
        >
        >
      • Travis (Constantine) Stolz
        Christ is risen! The determination of what one truly needs is not self-chosen, however. There are far too many I s in what you have written. The toughest
        Message 3 of 11 , May 14, 2008
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          Christ is risen!

          The determination of what one truly "needs" is not self-chosen, however. There are far too many "I"s in what you have written. The toughest lesson I have had to learn since becoming Orthodox--even tougher than obedience, frankly--is that of humility. It's not up to me to determine what I need or what I don't need. Christ nowhere says, "Pick and choose from the toolbox. A hammer is a spade is a level is a screwdriver--all is one and one is all."

          If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything else. If the only reason one is singing or praying to the Theotokos is out of "duty" or because of the words on a page, then I think (drat--there's that dreaded "I" again!) one has missed the point of the Liturgy.

          Yours in Christ,
          Travis (Constantine)

          _______________________
          Travis (Constantine) Stolz
          travis.stolz@...

          --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

          From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 2:50 AM






          Howdy!

          I made a post to an Orthodox forum under this title and
          many people don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

          Maybe some of you folks do...

          Here is the post:

          ==========
          We are all building "the house of God" and we draw our tools from
          one big common toolbox called "Orthodoxy."

          Each person uses every tool necessary in order to attain their own
          personal salvation.

          The person wiring the house (for electricity) will use a different
          set of tools than the person who is installing the plumbing. The
          plumber will use a different set of tools than the roofer.

          While we each may use a different set of tools, we are all doing the
          same work -- building a house.

          As a protestant convert, I may not need the "tool" of the
          intercession of the Theotokos as much as a cradle.

          HOWEVER

          As a choir member, I am duty-bound to sing her praises during the
          Divine Liturgy. If I don't I will be doing a great dis-servce to the
          person standing across the aisle for whom prayers to the Theotokos
          are an essential element of their personal faith. If I did
          otherwise, I would be denying a fellow worker access to a tool which
          is necessary for them to finish their work.
          ==========

          Anybody here appreciate what I am trying to say?
        • krolechka
          Indeed He is risen, Constantine! Greetings, everyone! ... Holy ... else. It s true, but it s not a mistake. Being/becoming a Christian is a process of our
          Message 4 of 11 , May 15, 2008
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            Indeed He is risen, Constantine!
            Greetings, everyone!

            I just would like to add to this:

            > If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most
            Holy
            > Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything
            else.

            It's true, but it's not a mistake. Being/becoming a Christian is a
            process of our whole life. It just takes time for everything - to
            realize one's own weakness, to realize thus the need for the saints'
            help, and then to start loving them. Takes different time for
            everyone. If someone doesn't feel he needs Theotokos' help - it
            simply means he's not reached that point yet. But there's nothing
            dangerous or wrong with being at that point of the path, as long as
            the person stays on the path and keeps moving to Christ at any speed,
            at least the slightest one.

            I guess, it's my opinion. :)
            Asking for your prayers,
            Alexander

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Travis \(Constantine\)
            Stolz" <travis.stolz@...> wrote:
            >
            > Christ is risen!
            >
            > The determination of what one truly "needs" is not self-chosen,
            however. There are far too many "I"s in what you have written. The
            toughest lesson I have had to learn since becoming Orthodox--even
            tougher than obedience, frankly--is that of humility. It's not up to me
            to determine what I need or what I don't need. Christ nowhere says,
            "Pick and choose from the toolbox. A hammer is a spade is a level is a
            screwdriver--all is one and one is all."
            >
            > If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most
            Holy Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything
            else. If the only reason one is singing or praying to the Theotokos is
            out of "duty" or because of the words on a page, then I think
            (drat--there's that dreaded "I" again!) one has missed the point of the
            Liturgy.
            >
            > Yours in Christ,
            > Travis (Constantine)
            >
            > _______________________
            > Travis (Constantine) Stolz
            > travis.stolz@...
            >
            > --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ dnaess@... wrote:
            >
            > From: Dave @¿@¬ dnaess@...
            > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
            > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 2:50 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Howdy!
            >
            > I made a post to an Orthodox forum under this title and
            > many people don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
            >
            > Maybe some of you folks do...
            >
            > Here is the post:
            >
            > ==========
            > We are all building "the house of God" and we draw our tools from
            > one big common toolbox called "Orthodoxy."
            >
            > Each person uses every tool necessary in order to attain their own
            > personal salvation.
            >
            > The person wiring the house (for electricity) will use a different
            > set of tools than the person who is installing the plumbing. The
            > plumber will use a different set of tools than the roofer.
            >
            > While we each may use a different set of tools, we are all doing the
            > same work -- building a house.
            >
            > As a protestant convert, I may not need the "tool" of the
            > intercession of the Theotokos as much as a cradle.
            >
            > HOWEVER
            >
            > As a choir member, I am duty-bound to sing her praises during the
            > Divine Liturgy. If I don't I will be doing a great dis-servce to the
            > person standing across the aisle for whom prayers to the Theotokos
            > are an essential element of their personal faith. If I did
            > otherwise, I would be denying a fellow worker access to a tool which
            > is necessary for them to finish their work.
            > ==========
            >
            > Anybody here appreciate what I am trying to say?



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