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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box

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  • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
    I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone. James Royal Prickett, Ph.D. wrote: Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts
    Message 1 of 11 , May 9, 2008
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      I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.

      "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
      Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this line.



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    • Dave @¿@¬
      The big problem that I am running into is that people can not comprehend my differentiation between: BENEFICIAL and NECESSARY! i.e.; If something is
      Message 2 of 11 , May 9, 2008
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        The big problem that I am running into is that people
        can not comprehend my differentiation between:
        BENEFICIAL
        and
        NECESSARY!

        i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
        do it!"

        I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
        an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

        Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
        a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->


        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
        <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
        >
        > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
        >
        > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
        > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
        line.
        >
        >
      • Anastasia Theodoridis
        If it s beneficial for you, I should think you d better consider it *necessary for you*, yes? It s necessary to make use of all things that benefit our souls.
        Message 3 of 11 , May 9, 2008
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          If it's beneficial for you, I should think you'd better consider it *necessary for you*, yes? It's necessary to make use of all things that benefit our souls.


          Anastasia
          e-mail: anastasiatheo01@...
          blog: http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Dave @¿@¬
          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:18 PM
          Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box


          The big problem that I am running into is that people
          can not comprehend my differentiation between:
          BENEFICIAL
          and
          NECESSARY!

          i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
          do it!"

          I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
          an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

          Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
          a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->

          --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
          <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
          >
          > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
          >
          > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
          > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
          line.
          >
          >






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        • Christopher Orr
          The older I get in church years the more I realize the spiritual dangers of simply living and being. I worry less about what might be necessary and grasp at
          Message 4 of 11 , May 9, 2008
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            The older I get in 'church years' the more I realize the spiritual dangers
            of simply living and being. I worry less about what might be necessary and
            grasp at anything beneficial that will help keep me afloat.

            I guess this also gets at the minimalist vs. maximalist issue. In
            Orthodoxy, it isn't the Words of Institution or even the Words of
            Institution and the epiklesis that is necessary for a 'valid' communion -
            the entire Divine Liturgy with a whole host of other 'musts' (a validly
            ordained priest/bishop, a layman, an antimens, etc.) are necessary to
            commune of Christ's Body and Blood.

            Christopher


            On 5/9/08, Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...> wrote:
            >
            > If it's beneficial for you, I should think you'd better consider it
            > *necessary for you*, yes? It's necessary to make use of all things that
            > benefit our souls.
            >
            > Anastasia
            > e-mail: anastasiatheo01@... <anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net>
            > blog: http://anastasias-corner.blogspot.com
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Dave @¿@¬
            > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:18 PM
            > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
            >
            > The big problem that I am running into is that people
            > can not comprehend my differentiation between:
            > BENEFICIAL
            > and
            > NECESSARY!
            >
            > i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
            > do it!"
            >
            > I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
            > an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)
            >
            > Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
            > a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->
            >
            > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
            > <donpedrogordo@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
            > >
            > > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
            > > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
            > line.
            > >
            > >
            >
            > ----------------------------------------------------------
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG.
            > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.10/1421 - Release Date: 5/7/2008
            > 5:23 PM
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Royal Prickett, Ph.D.
            Perhaps what is necessary is not the tools so much as the job they accomplish. For an example, praying without ceasing is necessary. Praying the Hours might
            Message 5 of 11 , May 9, 2008
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              Perhaps what is necessary is not the tools so much as the job they
              accomplish. For an example, praying without ceasing is necessary.
              Praying the Hours might be one of the tools that help me come closer
              to that goal. But someone could employ other tools like the Jesus
              Prayer, continually singing the hymns of the Church, or praying the
              Psalms.

              jrp

              --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > The big problem that I am running into is that people
              > can not comprehend my differentiation between:
              > BENEFICIAL
              > and
              > NECESSARY!
              >
              > i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
              > do it!"
              >
              > I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
              > an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)
              >
              > Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
              > a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->
              >
              >
              > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
              > <donpedrogordo@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
              > >
              > > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@> wrote:
              > > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
              > line.
              > >
              > >
              >
            • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
              Do try thinking in a different pattern. Rather than defining what is of the essence and what is peripheral [a scholastic approach], Orthodoxy embraces the
              Message 6 of 11 , May 10, 2008
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                Do try thinking in a different pattern. Rather than defining what is of the essence and what is peripheral [a scholastic approach], Orthodoxy embraces the experience as a spiritual whole. The boundaries between beneficial and necessary are blurred. It depends on who you are and where you are in your spiritual growth.
                Lutheran theologians acknowledge along with Orthodoxy that only the man who really prays is capable of true theology: We speak not in well spun tales but what we have ourselves seen and heard.
                These things are organically connected and living. Like the old question of what is the cat? The cat on the dissecting table is but a dead cat. The cat in your lap...well that is quite different! Our task is not so much to talk about God as to talk to Him...and listen. In Jesus we encounter the living God, both a fearful and joyous meeting. Peter

                Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:
                The big problem that I am running into is that people
                can not comprehend my differentiation between:
                BENEFICIAL and NECESSARY!



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              • Travis (Constantine) Stolz
                Good morning, Dave.   Christ is risen!   Perhaps it isn t the case that people cannot comprehend your differentiation, but rather that they find it
                Message 7 of 11 , May 14, 2008
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                  Good morning, Dave.
                   
                  Christ is risen!
                   
                  Perhaps it isn't the case that people cannot comprehend your differentiation, but rather that they find it unnecessary. And only a decade to develop an Orthodox mindset? Good heavens! Why the rush?

                  Yours in Christ,
                  Travis (Constantine)

                  _______________________
                  Travis (Constantine) Stolz
                  travis.stolz@...

                  --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

                  From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 6:18 PM






                  The big problem that I am running into is that people
                  can not comprehend my differentiation between:
                  BENEFICIAL
                  and
                  NECESSARY!

                  i.e.; "If something is beneficial for me, everybody should
                  do it!"

                  I have attempted to illustrate by using "Praying The Hours" as
                  an example. (Not necessary for everybody.)

                  Maybe I should just hang out here and at my own church for about
                  a decade until I have developed "an Orthodox mindset." ;->

                  --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                  <donpedrogordo@ ...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I agree with Dave and JiMi. Me, too! You are not alone.
                  >
                  > "James Royal Prickett, Ph.D." <jimi@...> wrote:
                  > Why, yes I can appreciate your thoughts along this
                  line.
                  >
                  >
                • Travis (Constantine) Stolz
                  Christ is risen! The determination of what one truly needs is not self-chosen, however. There are far too many I s in what you have written. The toughest
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 14, 2008
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                    Christ is risen!

                    The determination of what one truly "needs" is not self-chosen, however. There are far too many "I"s in what you have written. The toughest lesson I have had to learn since becoming Orthodox--even tougher than obedience, frankly--is that of humility. It's not up to me to determine what I need or what I don't need. Christ nowhere says, "Pick and choose from the toolbox. A hammer is a spade is a level is a screwdriver--all is one and one is all."

                    If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything else. If the only reason one is singing or praying to the Theotokos is out of "duty" or because of the words on a page, then I think (drat--there's that dreaded "I" again!) one has missed the point of the Liturgy.

                    Yours in Christ,
                    Travis (Constantine)

                    _______________________
                    Travis (Constantine) Stolz
                    travis.stolz@...

                    --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...> wrote:

                    From: Dave @¿@¬ <dnaess@...>
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 2:50 AM






                    Howdy!

                    I made a post to an Orthodox forum under this title and
                    many people don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

                    Maybe some of you folks do...

                    Here is the post:

                    ==========
                    We are all building "the house of God" and we draw our tools from
                    one big common toolbox called "Orthodoxy."

                    Each person uses every tool necessary in order to attain their own
                    personal salvation.

                    The person wiring the house (for electricity) will use a different
                    set of tools than the person who is installing the plumbing. The
                    plumber will use a different set of tools than the roofer.

                    While we each may use a different set of tools, we are all doing the
                    same work -- building a house.

                    As a protestant convert, I may not need the "tool" of the
                    intercession of the Theotokos as much as a cradle.

                    HOWEVER

                    As a choir member, I am duty-bound to sing her praises during the
                    Divine Liturgy. If I don't I will be doing a great dis-servce to the
                    person standing across the aisle for whom prayers to the Theotokos
                    are an essential element of their personal faith. If I did
                    otherwise, I would be denying a fellow worker access to a tool which
                    is necessary for them to finish their work.
                    ==========

                    Anybody here appreciate what I am trying to say?
                  • krolechka
                    Indeed He is risen, Constantine! Greetings, everyone! ... Holy ... else. It s true, but it s not a mistake. Being/becoming a Christian is a process of our
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 15, 2008
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                      Indeed He is risen, Constantine!
                      Greetings, everyone!

                      I just would like to add to this:

                      > If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most
                      Holy
                      > Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything
                      else.

                      It's true, but it's not a mistake. Being/becoming a Christian is a
                      process of our whole life. It just takes time for everything - to
                      realize one's own weakness, to realize thus the need for the saints'
                      help, and then to start loving them. Takes different time for
                      everyone. If someone doesn't feel he needs Theotokos' help - it
                      simply means he's not reached that point yet. But there's nothing
                      dangerous or wrong with being at that point of the path, as long as
                      the person stays on the path and keeps moving to Christ at any speed,
                      at least the slightest one.

                      I guess, it's my opinion. :)
                      Asking for your prayers,
                      Alexander

                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Travis \(Constantine\)
                      Stolz" <travis.stolz@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Christ is risen!
                      >
                      > The determination of what one truly "needs" is not self-chosen,
                      however. There are far too many "I"s in what you have written. The
                      toughest lesson I have had to learn since becoming Orthodox--even
                      tougher than obedience, frankly--is that of humility. It's not up to me
                      to determine what I need or what I don't need. Christ nowhere says,
                      "Pick and choose from the toolbox. A hammer is a spade is a level is a
                      screwdriver--all is one and one is all."
                      >
                      > If one believes that one doesn't need the intercession of the Most
                      Holy Theotokos, that says more about the individual rather than anything
                      else. If the only reason one is singing or praying to the Theotokos is
                      out of "duty" or because of the words on a page, then I think
                      (drat--there's that dreaded "I" again!) one has missed the point of the
                      Liturgy.
                      >
                      > Yours in Christ,
                      > Travis (Constantine)
                      >
                      > _______________________
                      > Travis (Constantine) Stolz
                      > travis.stolz@...
                      >
                      > --- On Fri, 5/9/08, Dave @¿@¬ dnaess@... wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Dave @¿@¬ dnaess@...
                      > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Orthodoxy - the communal tool box
                      > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, May 9, 2008, 2:50 AM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Howdy!
                      >
                      > I made a post to an Orthodox forum under this title and
                      > many people don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
                      >
                      > Maybe some of you folks do...
                      >
                      > Here is the post:
                      >
                      > ==========
                      > We are all building "the house of God" and we draw our tools from
                      > one big common toolbox called "Orthodoxy."
                      >
                      > Each person uses every tool necessary in order to attain their own
                      > personal salvation.
                      >
                      > The person wiring the house (for electricity) will use a different
                      > set of tools than the person who is installing the plumbing. The
                      > plumber will use a different set of tools than the roofer.
                      >
                      > While we each may use a different set of tools, we are all doing the
                      > same work -- building a house.
                      >
                      > As a protestant convert, I may not need the "tool" of the
                      > intercession of the Theotokos as much as a cradle.
                      >
                      > HOWEVER
                      >
                      > As a choir member, I am duty-bound to sing her praises during the
                      > Divine Liturgy. If I don't I will be doing a great dis-servce to the
                      > person standing across the aisle for whom prayers to the Theotokos
                      > are an essential element of their personal faith. If I did
                      > otherwise, I would be denying a fellow worker access to a tool which
                      > is necessary for them to finish their work.
                      > ==========
                      >
                      > Anybody here appreciate what I am trying to say?



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