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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Lutherans and Orthodox in Heaven?

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  • Travis (Constantine) Stolz
    Again briefly (breakfast on a day off for everyone, you know), look at the following (both in ANF 3): Against Praxeas, ch. 2; Prescription against Heretics,
    Message 1 of 53 , Jan 21, 2008
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      Again briefly (breakfast on a day off for everyone, you know), look at the following (both in ANF 3): Against Praxeas, ch. 2; Prescription against Heretics, ch. 13.

      That's a start.

      Yours,
      Travis (Constantine)

      Christopher Orr <xcjorr@...> wrote:
      *Put briefly (for now), this is where the regula fidei is important and why
      it became important very early on. E.g., for Tertullian (to cite but one
      example), if a proposed scripture opposed the regula, then one must go with
      the regula and not scripture.*

      Can you provide a citation and/or quotation for this position of Tertullian?

      Christopher

      On 1/20/08, Travis (Constantine) Stolz <travis.stolz@...> wrote:
      >
      > Jon,
      >
      > Thanks for your note. Your reply reminds me, at least in part, of an
      > episode of Frasier where Niles takes over Frasier's show. The first thing
      > Niles says is: "I should warn you: Frasier is a Freudian while I am a
      > Jungian. There will be no blaming mother today!" On the one hand, I am
      > tempted to say (as an Orthodox Christian), "There will be no sola scriptura
      > today!" But on the other hand, I don't agree that "the Lutheran principle"
      > of which you speak holds that Holy Scripture is "the sole source and norm of
      > Lutheran doctrine." The Lutheran Symbols (I'm thinking of the FC especially)
      > speak of Holy Scripture as the sole norm but I am unaware of any place in
      > the Symbols where Holy Scripture is spoken of as the *sole source* of
      > doctrine. At any rate, speaking of Holy Scripture as the *sole source* of
      > doctrine is to open a Pandora's box of all sorts of trouble.
      >
      > Your question--whether the Church inspired God or vice versa--presents a
      > false alternative. Holy Scripture is God's Word, of course. The question is
      > how one determines this, how one chooses between, say, the Gospel of St.
      > Matthew and that of the Egyptians. Put briefly (for now), this is where the
      > regula fidei is important and why it became important very early on. E.g.,
      > for Tertullian (to cite but one example), if a proposed scripture opposed
      > the regula, then one must go with the regula and not scripture. This is one
      > way--indeed, an extremely important way--the Church claimed what is truly
      > Holy Scripture. This is also how one reads Holy Scripture, namely, according
      > to the regula.
      >
      > In other words, the Church could (she in fact did) exist without Holy
      > Scripture. But Holy Scripture could not exist without the Church. To place
      > "man's word" and "the church's word" in apposition as you seem to do
      > suggests an ecclesiology that is foreign to Orthodox Christians. Because the
      > Church is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim 3), then one can rest
      > assured that Holy Scripture is God's Word since it is the Church's Word.
      >
      > It's getting late and we're off to bed soon. There's more to say but be
      > well and I look forward to getting back to this tomorrow.
      >
      > Yours,
      > Travis (Constantine)
      >
      > "Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth" <didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>>
      > wrote:
      > Travis (Constantine),
      >
      > First, I invite you to call me Jon if it is in accord with your piety.
      >
      > Second, I hold tradition very highly, though not equal with Holy
      > Scripture. Yes, I understand that Scripture was "handed over" (tradition) by
      > men (the Church) throughout many centuries; however, did men (the Church)
      > inspire God, or did God inspire men (the Church)? What I mean is, though the
      > Church of God existed prior to the "book" of God and indeed is responsible
      > for "creating" the book of God, the book, nevertheless, is "God's Word", not
      > "man's word" or "the church's word".
      >
      > You know that the Lutheran principle is that the Holy Scripture is norma
      > normans, the sole source and norm of Lutheran doctrine. But I am not the
      > typical Lutheran and allow that tradition is a close second -- indeed,
      > tradition is norming, so long as it is in agreement with and serves
      > Scripture.
      >
      > There are so many doctrines within Orthodoxy (Roman Catholicism too) (e.g.,
      > the role of Mary, prayers to Saints, relics, etc.) that are seemingly
      > derived moreso, if not solely, from tradition rather than Scripture. These
      > are major stumbling blocks for me.
      >
      > Believe me, I argue vehemently amongst Lutherans (and others) that the
      > Scriptures can be rightly interpreted only within the Church through which
      > they were given --- but I think that it is you (Orthodoxy) who have put the
      > cart before the horse as per my explanation above in the first paragraph.
      >
      > Your critique about individual faithful Lutherans and / or congregations
      > hits home. I do lament that my so-called church body is clearly heterodox in
      > practice if not in confession. The question however is where can the
      > faithful go? I am looking, and have been for a while now. Sadly, I do not
      > see the organized body of my own confession anywhere. Right now, I am
      > consigned to believe that this is partly what our Lord meant in Matthew
      > 10:34-39 and other similar passages.
      >
      > Right now, the only thing about Orthodoxy that is attractive to me is
      > uniformity in liturgical practice. The little flock entrusted to me prays
      > the liturgy fairly well and they even seem to like it. I'm actually thankful
      > for that. Why is it that tares are acceptable in the parish, but not in the
      > synod?
      >
      > When I first went to the seminary, only 10+ years ago, I firmly believed
      > in a visible Church on earth that could be recognized by it's marks..., and
      > I believed that to be the Lutheran Church. Now I'm not at all certain such
      > an entity exists. Without doubt the invisible Church exists, but how could
      > she possibly manifest herself visibly through men of such corruption as us?
      >
      > Gads! I could just keep typing now. I'm somewhere between laughing and
      > crying. I'd quit tomorrow and go teach somewhere if I didn't love Christ and
      > His Body so much.
      >
      > Another glass of strong red wine (Rodney Strong Zinfandel 2005) and I'm
      > off to bed.
      >
      > Pax Christi
      > JME
      >
      > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      >
      > "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his
      > mother."
      > - St. Cyprian of Carthage
      >
      > "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also the Word of all,
      > and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere. And there is only one
      > Virgin Mother;
      > I love to call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
      >
      > Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
      > The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
      > 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
      > Office 845.855.3169
      > Home 845.855.2616
      > E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
      > E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
      > Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
      > Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Travis (Constantine) Stolz
      > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2008 9:54 PM
      > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Lutherans and Orthodox in Heaven?
      >
      > Dear Rev. Ellingworth,
      >
      > Concerning point a, here are some of my thoughts (for what, if anything,
      > they might be worth):
      >
      > You say that you need to be convinced by arguments "normed" by Holy
      > Scripture and only "supported" by Holy Tradition. Speaking for myself, at
      > least (as only one Orthodox Christian), you seem to be putting the cart
      > before the horse. On the one hand, Holy Scripture and Holy Tradition are of
      > one piece and cannot be bifurcated or placed in opposition as you seem to be
      > doing. On the other hand, it is the Church herself and her Tradition that
      > gave us Holy Scripture, so again I seem to be a bit confused as to how you
      > want to argue, much less how I can argue based on the parameters or criteria
      > you have indicated.
      >
      > With that out of the way, then, we believe that the Orthodox Church simply
      > is *the* One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church because of the teaching of
      > Christ, the Holy Apostles, and the Holy Fathers which she has preserved down
      > to this day. Every communion, denomination, sect, etc., says this, of
      > course. The proof of the pudding, however, is in the eating. "To be deep in
      > history," as Newman writes, "is to cease to be Protestant." And, for me,
      > Lutheran as well. This is not a dig against Lutheranism or a swipe at my
      > former colleagues. Rather, it simply reflects my experience at trying again
      > and again to make Luther et al. conform not simply to the Fathers but, quite
      > frankly, the historic witness of the Church herself. One can only (as a
      > Lutheran) read the Holy Fathers and say, "But we have this, too," before one
      > must be honest and realize that this is simply untrue. And even if it is
      > true for one Lutheran somewhere or even one Lutheran parish, it is only an
      > exception--for one is in fellowship (i.e., eucharistic) with other
      > Lutherans who do not care in the least for the Church and her Tradition,
      > etc.
      >
      > Also, ecclesiology and Christology are two sides of the same coin. Just as
      > the Incarnation made God concrete and tangible, so, too, is the Church
      > herself. The Church is the concrete and tangible place of salvation, the
      > place where concrete and tangible sacraments are effected by a concrete and
      > tangible priesthood (who are incumbents of the priesthood through concrete
      > and tangible means as well). This is something (again, my own experience) at
      > which Lutherans balk, at least when push comes to shove. For Orthodox
      > Christians, however, it's the default setting.
      >
      > I don't know if this answers anything or is the least bit helpful, but
      > these are some thoughts on a Saturday night...
      >
      > Yours,
      > Travis (Constantine)
      >
      > "Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth" <didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>>
      > wrote:
      > Considering the various responses the subject line has generated, this is
      > what I glean:
      > a) Orthodox believe that they are the one true visible Church on earth.
      > b) Because God alone will judge on the Last Day, no one, Orthodox or
      > otherwise, can know with certainty that they are/will be saved.
      >
      > Concerning "a", this has only been dogmatically stated. I need to be
      > convinced of this by sound argument normed by Scripture and only supported
      > by tradition.
      >
      > Concerning "b", I agree, of course, that the final judgment is the final
      > word on our salvation. Since that has not occurred, then we cannot know what
      > that judgment will be. However, another way of looking at this is that the
      > final judgment has been executed in Jesus' death and resurrection. Those
      > baptized believers in Christ are, even now, judged innocent in Christ. All
      > that is necessary to be saved is to "remain in Christ", i.e. "Remain in me
      > and I will remain in you, and you will bear much fruit." Remaining in Christ
      > is little more than remaining in repentance, receiving absolution, being
      > sustained in Christ's gifts through Word and Sacrament, and bearing His
      > fruit of love (mercy, forgiveness, charity, sacrifice, etc.); this is
      > essentially what it means to be a Christian. Falling out of this, though
      > possible, is surely difficult for those who love the Lord and believe His
      > Word. For those who remain in Christ, I cannot imagine that one would not be
      > comforted and secure
      > "knowing" that Christ has promised never to leave or forsake you and that
      > if and when you stumble and sin that, in repentance, He is ready and anxious
      > to forgive and restore. As a related aside, Job, who certainly had every
      > reason to despair, confessed "I *know* that my Redeemer lives.... [...] And
      > after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God."
      > This certainly sounds to me like Job was confident of his salvation, and at
      > the worst imaginable moment of his life.
      >
      > I thank you all for your answers.
      > JME
      >
      > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
      >
      > "He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his
      > mother."
      > - St. Cyprian of Carthage
      >
      > "O wondrous mystery! One is the Father of all, one also the Word of all,
      > and the Holy Spirit is one and the same everywhere. And there is only one
      > Virgin Mother;
      > I love to call her the Church." - St. Clement of Alexandria
      >
      > Rev. Jon M. Ellingworth
      > The Lutheran Church of Christ the King
      > 14 Pine Drive Pawling, NY 12564
      > Office 845.855.3169
      > Home 845.855.2616
      > E-Mail didache@... <didache%40earthlink.net>
      > E-Mail pawlinglutheran@... <pawlinglutheran%40verizon.net>
      > Web http://www.pawlinglutheran.org
      > Blog http://www.lesteverymanbeblind.blogspot.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > _______________________
      > Travis (Constantine) Stolz
      > travis.stolz@... <travis.stolz%40yahoo.com>
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > _______________________
      > Travis (Constantine) Stolz
      > travis.stolz@... <travis.stolz%40yahoo.com>
      >
      > ---------------------------------
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      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >

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      _______________________
      Travis (Constantine) Stolz
      travis.stolz@...


      ---------------------------------
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    • Brian Fink
      You mean Pastor isnt their first name after all? Brian ... From: tharman32 To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
      Message 53 of 53 , Jan 23, 2008
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        You mean Pastor isnt their first name after all?

        Brian


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:21:54 PM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Lutherans and Orthodox in Heaven?

        --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, "Rev. Jon M.
        Ellingworth" <didache@... > wrote:
        >
        Pastor (sorry, the Marine in me prevents me from using your first
        name :) )Recent Activity
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