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Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Lutherans and Orthodox in Heaven?

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  • Christopher Orr
    A paraphrased story of one of the great 4th Century Desert Fathers of Egypt: Considered to be a very holy and venerable man himself, many drew near to Abba
    Message 1 of 53 , Jan 17, 2008
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      A paraphrased story of one of the great 4th Century Desert Fathers of Egypt:

      Considered to be a very holy and venerable man himself, many drew near to
      Abba Sisoes while he was on his death bed. In his last moments, he saw
      choirs of angels and archangels, not to mention prophets, Apostles and
      saints. Wondering what was going on, those gathered around him asked, "With
      whom are you speaking, Abba?"

      "With the angels," he replied, and indicated that he was seeking to do
      penance before he left this life for the next. Knowing his holiness, one
      friend said to him, "You have no need for penance, Father." Abba Sisoes
      replied, "I have not yet begun to repent."

      Even great Orthodox saints are not 'sure' of their salvation and must still
      face the "dread judgement seat of Christ", as we pray in various Litanies.
      We don't know if the non-Orthodox will be saved because we (I) don't know if
      we (I) will be saved.

      My personal salvation is not how I determine whether God is good and loving
      or not. So, while I may have questions concerning my own salvation, we are
      fully assured of the patience, love and longsuffering of God - that we have
      no question concerning as is emminently clear in the Prayers Before
      Communion.

      Christopher

      On 1/17/08, Travis (Constantine) Stolz <travis.stolz@...> wrote:
      >
      > Are you familiar with Fr. Seraphim Rose's book, The Soul After Death?
      > That would be helpful to skim.
      >
      > In a nutshell, Fr. Gregory's agnostic view is correct: One simply cannot
      > say what the status is of the heterodox, Lutheran or otherwise. In other
      > words, we don't know. I hasten to add, however, that this does not mean that
      > the Orthodox are simply consigning Lutherans to Hell--God judges, we do not.
      > We just don't know. I think you will find that Orthodox don't often speak in
      > static or absolute terms, such as whether someone is in or out. On the one
      > hand, again, God is the Judge. On the other hand, the process of salvation
      > is dynamic, after all. I am even now being saved but I will not be saved
      > until the next life, and even then I wonder if there is more to come, more
      > growth, etc.
      >
      > Still, I do think there is something to what the Orthodox woman says
      > (although I do disagree with her apparent predilection for absolute
      > certainty). I know plenty of non-Orthodox who love Christ and try their best
      > to live decent Christian lives. Are they Orthodox, are they part of the One
      > Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church? No. But God is a merciful Father and
      > loves mankind. I cannot judge but I do trust Him to fill in the blanks.
      >
      > This is not to make light of error or treat the heterodox as if they were
      > Orthodox. I have found, however, that I just don't think about these kinds
      > of things having become Orthodox. As a Lutheran I did--who is in, who is
      > out, what about unbaptized babies, etc. Not that Orthodox are unconcerned,
      > but there is a different paradigm.
      >
      > I hope this helps...
      >
      > Yours,
      > Travis (Constantine)
      >
      > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> wrote:
      >
      > I've run across two thoughts which seem to me as being very different and
      > I was hoping some of you may clarify this for me. One is from Fr. Hogg. I
      > don't have his email and in the interest of fairness if any of you do,
      > please feel free to pass my email along to him along with the topic of this
      > discussion. I would be interested in his thoughts as well. But, as I do not
      > have his email right now, I'm asking LLE.
      >
      > Fr. Gregory Hogg said...I genuinely have no idea about any particular
      > Lutheran and where or what he or she is. To use the passive you're so fond
      > of, "It has not been given me to judge an individual; but it has been given
      > me to judge bodies or institutions." (Note: I've also never said Lutherans
      > may be within the church. I said that I simply don't know. And that's what I
      > mean.)His comment can be found here -
      > http://weedon.blogspot.com/2008/01/worth-blog-entry-of-its-own.html#comments
      >
      > Compare and contrast with another Orthodox woman (with whom I've only
      > spoken with twice) who called me her Sister and was absolutely sure that we
      > would meet in Heaven, her being Orthodox and myself Lutheran - which I take
      > to mean that in her thought Lutherans were within the Church. Are these both
      > genuine Orthodox beliefs, is one wrong, or do they perhaps mesh in a way I'm
      > not seeing?
      >
      > Love in Christ.
      > __________________________________________________________
      > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
      >
      > http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > _______________________
      > Travis (Constantine) Stolz
      > travis.stolz@... <travis.stolz%40yahoo.com>
      >
      > ---------------------------------
      > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
      > now.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


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    • Brian Fink
      You mean Pastor isnt their first name after all? Brian ... From: tharman32 To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January
      Message 53 of 53 , Jan 23, 2008
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        You mean Pastor isnt their first name after all?

        Brian


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2008 7:21:54 PM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Lutherans and Orthodox in Heaven?

        --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, "Rev. Jon M.
        Ellingworth" <didache@... > wrote:
        >
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