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Re: What's wrong with these prayers?

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  • michael144000
    Tell us more about energeia and dunamis. ... read ... pray ... it ... that ... might seem ... after ... that ... of God ... all of ... repentance. ... place
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 3 2:06 PM
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      Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.

      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
      <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
      >
      > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
      read
      > this morning:
      > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
      pray
      > for us [. . .]
      > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
      it
      > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
      > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
      that
      > we be given God's grace."
      > p. 12
      >
      > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
      > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
      might seem
      > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
      after
      > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
      that
      > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
      of God
      > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
      all of
      > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
      repentance."
      > p. 50
      > Does that help a little?
      >
      > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
      > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
      > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
      > helps a LOT.
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
      > <stoic1348@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
      > >
      > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
      place in
      > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
      similar
      > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
      hopeless, the
      > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
      unto
      > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
      > >
      > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
      the
      > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
      17: "That they
      > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
      > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
      Father
      > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
      not
      > > true God.
      > >
      > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
      about the
      > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
      In 1
      > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
      > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
      > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
      the "only"
      > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
      that
      > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
      context
      > > to be understood rightly.
      > >
      > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
      thee," "who
      > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
      my
      > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
      hope of
      > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
      my own
      > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
      God
      > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
      our
      > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
      true
      > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
      word" of
      > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
      strength,
      > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
      from
      > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
      > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
      the
      > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
      refuge
      > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
      but
      > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
      includes
      > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
      > >
      > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
      > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
      even
      > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
      with the
      > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
      > >
      > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
      > >
      > > The unworthy priest,
      > >
      > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
      > >
      > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
      > > drew1095950@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
      don't
      > mind
      > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
      practice
      > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
      communion of
      > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
      and
      > 'have
      > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
      > > >
      > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
      on the
      > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
      does
      > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
      > saints
      > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
      like
      > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
      > doesn't
      > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
      2nd
      > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
      Apostolic
      > > origin.
      > > >
      > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
      became a
      > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
      was I
      > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
      in
      > the
      > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
      > because
      > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
      > Ignatius,
      > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
      issue.
      > But
      > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
      for the
      > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
      > > >
      > > > Your thoughts?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Andrew.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
      > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
      of God,
      > > > for the
      > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
      > > God-bearing
      > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
      Mother
      > > > of the
      > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
      pour out
      > > > the mercy
      > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
      > > > intercessions
      > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
      of my
      > > life
      > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
      > > > Theotokos, who
      > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
      > > > >
      > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
      and
      > body,
      > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
      me from
      > all
      > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
      Pray
      > > > for me, a
      > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
      worthy
      > > > of the
      > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
      Mother of
      > > my Lord
      > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
      > > > >
      > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
      feast of
      > > > victory
      > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
      > Theotokos;
      > > > but as
      > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
      dangers that
      > > > can be do
      > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
      > > Unwedded!*
      > > > >
      > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
      our
      > > > prayer to thy
      > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
      > > > >
      > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
      thy
      > > > protection.
      > > > > *
      > > > >
      > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
      help and
      > thy
      > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
      thee.*
      > > > >
      > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
      is the
      > > Holy
      > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
      > > > >
      > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
      > > > blessed and
      > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
      than the
      > > > Cherubim
      > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
      without
      > > > corruption
      > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
      thee.*
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Jeremy
      Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself. I ll keep
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 4 6:15 AM
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        Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
        was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself.
        I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
        Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
        this one?


        John


        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "michael144000"
        <grailpriest@...> wrote:
        >
        > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
        >
        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Jeremy"
        > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
        > >
        > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
        > read
        > > this morning:
        > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
        > pray
        > > for us [. . .]
        > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
        > it
        > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
        > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
        > that
        > > we be given God's grace."
        > > p. 12
        > >
        > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
        > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
        > might seem
        > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
        > after
        > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
        > that
        > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
        > of God
        > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
        > all of
        > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
        > repentance."
        > > p. 50
        > > Does that help a little?
        > >
        > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
        > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
        > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
        > > helps a LOT.
        > >
        > > John
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "tantuslabor"
        > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
        > > >
        > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
        > place in
        > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
        > similar
        > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
        > hopeless, the
        > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
        > unto
        > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
        > > >
        > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
        > the
        > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
        > 17: "That they
        > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
        > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
        > Father
        > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
        > not
        > > > true God.
        > > >
        > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
        > about the
        > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
        > In 1
        > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
        > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
        > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
        > the "only"
        > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
        > that
        > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
        > context
        > > > to be understood rightly.
        > > >
        > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
        > thee," "who
        > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
        > my
        > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
        > hope of
        > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
        > my own
        > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
        > God
        > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
        > our
        > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
        > true
        > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
        > word" of
        > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
        > strength,
        > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
        > from
        > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
        > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
        > the
        > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
        > refuge
        > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
        > but
        > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
        > includes
        > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
        > > >
        > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
        > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
        > even
        > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
        > with the
        > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
        > > >
        > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
        > > >
        > > > The unworthy priest,
        > > >
        > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
        > > >
        > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew"
        > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
        > don't
        > > mind
        > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
        > practice
        > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
        > communion of
        > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
        > and
        > > 'have
        > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
        > > > >
        > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
        > on the
        > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
        > does
        > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
        > > saints
        > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
        > like
        > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
        > > doesn't
        > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
        > 2nd
        > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
        > Apostolic
        > > > origin.
        > > > >
        > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
        > became a
        > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
        > was I
        > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
        > in
        > > the
        > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
        > > because
        > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
        > > Ignatius,
        > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
        > issue.
        > > But
        > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
        > for the
        > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
        > > > >
        > > > > Your thoughts?
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Andrew.
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
        > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
        > of God,
        > > > > for the
        > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
        > > > God-bearing
        > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
        > Mother
        > > > > of the
        > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
        > pour out
        > > > > the mercy
        > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
        > > > > intercessions
        > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
        > of my
        > > > life
        > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
        > > > > Theotokos, who
        > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
        > and
        > > body,
        > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
        > me from
        > > all
        > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
        > Pray
        > > > > for me, a
        > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
        > worthy
        > > > > of the
        > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
        > Mother of
        > > > my Lord
        > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
        > feast of
        > > > > victory
        > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
        > > Theotokos;
        > > > > but as
        > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
        > dangers that
        > > > > can be do
        > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
        > > > Unwedded!*
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
        > our
        > > > > prayer to thy
        > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
        > thy
        > > > > protection.
        > > > > > *
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
        > help and
        > > thy
        > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
        > thee.*
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
        > is the
        > > > Holy
        > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
        > > > > >
        > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
        > > > > blessed and
        > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
        > than the
        > > > > Cherubim
        > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
        > without
        > > > > corruption
        > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
        > thee.*
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
      • Christopher Orr
        God s energies are His direct presence, not just his goodwill toward us. God s Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, Who is everywhere present and filleth all
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 4 10:18 AM
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          God's energies are His direct presence, not just his 'goodwill' toward us.
          God's Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, "Who is everywhere present and
          filleth all things".

          Christopher


          On 3/4/07, Jeremy <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
          >
          > Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
          > was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them myself.
          > I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
          > Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
          > this one?
          >
          > John
          >
          > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "michael144000"
          >
          > <grailpriest@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
          > >
          > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Jeremy"
          > > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
          > > read
          > > > this morning:
          > > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
          > > pray
          > > > for us [. . .]
          > > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
          > > it
          > > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
          > > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
          > > that
          > > > we be given God's grace."
          > > > p. 12
          > > >
          > > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a number of
          > > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
          > > might seem
          > > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
          > > after
          > > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
          > > that
          > > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
          > > of God
          > > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
          > > all of
          > > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
          > > repentance."
          > > > p. 50
          > > > Does that help a little?
          > > >
          > > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
          > > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
          > > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and dunamis
          > > > helps a LOT.
          > > >
          > > > John
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "tantuslabor"
          > > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
          > > > >
          > > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
          > > place in
          > > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
          > > similar
          > > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
          > > hopeless, the
          > > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
          > > unto
          > > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
          > > > >
          > > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
          > > the
          > > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
          > > 17: "That they
          > > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast
          > > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
          > > Father
          > > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
          > > not
          > > > > true God.
          > > > >
          > > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
          > > about the
          > > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
          > > In 1
          > > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and eternal
          > > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the same
          > > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
          > > the "only"
          > > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
          > > that
          > > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
          > > context
          > > > > to be understood rightly.
          > > > >
          > > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
          > > thee," "who
          > > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
          > > my
          > > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
          > > hope of
          > > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
          > > my own
          > > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
          > > God
          > > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
          > > our
          > > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
          > > true
          > > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
          > > word" of
          > > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
          > > strength,
          > > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
          > > from
          > > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
          > > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
          > > the
          > > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
          > > refuge
          > > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
          > > but
          > > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
          > > includes
          > > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
          > > > >
          > > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
          > > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
          > > even
          > > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
          > > with the
          > > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
          > > > >
          > > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
          > > > >
          > > > > The unworthy priest,
          > > > >
          > > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
          > > > >
          > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Andrew"
          > > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
          > > don't
          > > > mind
          > > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
          > > practice
          > > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
          > > communion of
          > > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
          > > and
          > > > 'have
          > > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
          > > on the
          > > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
          > > does
          > > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
          > > > saints
          > > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
          > > like
          > > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
          > > > doesn't
          > > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
          > > 2nd
          > > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
          > > Apostolic
          > > > > origin.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
          > > became a
          > > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
          > > was I
          > > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
          > > in
          > > > the
          > > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
          > > > because
          > > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
          > > > Ignatius,
          > > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
          > > issue.
          > > > But
          > > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
          > > for the
          > > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Your thoughts?
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Andrew.
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Christopher Orr"
          > > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
          > > of God,
          > > > > > for the
          > > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
          > > > > God-bearing
          > > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
          > > Mother
          > > > > > of the
          > > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
          > > pour out
          > > > > > the mercy
          > > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
          > > > > > intercessions
          > > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
          > > of my
          > > > > life
          > > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
          > > > > > Theotokos, who
          > > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
          > > and
          > > > body,
          > > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
          > > me from
          > > > all
          > > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
          > > Pray
          > > > > > for me, a
          > > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
          > > worthy
          > > > > > of the
          > > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
          > > Mother of
          > > > > my Lord
          > > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
          > > feast of
          > > > > > victory
          > > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
          > > > Theotokos;
          > > > > > but as
          > > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
          > > dangers that
          > > > > > can be do
          > > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou Bride
          > > > > Unwedded!*
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
          > > our
          > > > > > prayer to thy
          > > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
          > > thy
          > > > > > protection.
          > > > > > > *
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
          > > help and
          > > > thy
          > > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
          > > thee.*
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
          > > is the
          > > > > Holy
          > > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art ever
          > > > > > blessed and
          > > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
          > > than the
          > > > > > Cherubim
          > > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
          > > without
          > > > > > corruption
          > > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
          > > thee.*
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeremy
          Right. Thanks, Christopher. Sometimes I forget it really is that simple. John ... toward us. ... myself. ...
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 5 3:37 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Right.
            Thanks, Christopher.
            Sometimes I forget it really is that simple.


            John


            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
            <xcjorr@...> wrote:
            >
            > God's energies are His direct presence, not just his 'goodwill'
            toward us.
            > God's Energy is the Holy Spirit Himself, "Who is everywhere present and
            > filleth all things".
            >
            > Christopher
            >
            >
            > On 3/4/07, Jeremy <AdonaiUplifts@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Upon beginning a response to try and explain energeia and dunamis, I
            > > was humbled by my realization of my remedial understanding of them
            myself.
            > > I'll keep working on the response, but it might take several days.
            > > Perhaps someone who is a little more seasoned would like to help me on
            > > this one?
            > >
            > > John
            > >
            > > --- In
            LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "michael144000"
            > >
            > > <grailpriest@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Tell us more about energeia and dunamis.
            > > >
            > > > --- In
            LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "Jeremy"
            > > > <AdonaiUplifts@> wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > a couple more insights from First Fruits of Prayer, which I just
            > > > read
            > > > > this morning:
            > > > > "The first canticle closes with petitions that ask the saints to
            > > > pray
            > > > > for us [. . .]
            > > > > "This petition asks St. Mary to give us "the light of grace," but
            > > > it
            > > > > should not be understood as saying that St. Mary is in charge of
            > > > > managing God's grace. It is a shorthand way of asking her to pray
            > > > that
            > > > > we be given God's grace."
            > > > > p. 12
            > > > >
            > > > > "As Canticle Tree comes to an end, [. . .] we encounter a
            number of
            > > > > petitions to saints that they will pray for us. But this one
            > > > might seem
            > > > > to go too far; can St. Mary of Egypt [not the Theotokos], who is
            > > > after
            > > > > all human just like us, "keep us safe"? No, the implication is not
            > > > that
            > > > > she has superpowers, but that her will is so united with the will
            > > > of God
            > > > > that her prayers will be effective. This union is the goal for
            > > > all of
            > > > > us, and like her, it will come to us through the path of
            > > > repentance."
            > > > > p. 50
            > > > > Does that help a little?
            > > > >
            > > > > It definitely takes some getting used to. But after a while, the
            > > > > distinctions become very clear in heart and mind. Getting a better
            > > > > grasp of the Orthodox understanding of grace as energia and
            dunamis
            > > > > helps a LOT.
            > > > >
            > > > > John
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > --- In
            LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "tantuslabor"
            > > > > <stoic1348@> wrote:
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Dear Andrew (what a wonderful name!),
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Let me take on just one of your questions--the "all my hope I
            > > > place in
            > > > > > thee" one. (At the end of Little Compline, we pray something
            > > > similar
            > > > > > to it to the Theotokos: "who *alone* art the hope of the
            > > > hopeless, the
            > > > > > help of those who do battle; the ready help of those who flee
            > > > unto
            > > > > > thee and the refuge of all Christians.")
            > > > > >
            > > > > > When I was a teenager, I was profoundly struck by an argument of
            > > > the
            > > > > > Jehovah's Witnesses. Christ says to the Father, in John
            > > > 17: "That they
            > > > > > may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou
            hast
            > > > > > sent." Their argument went as follows: Christ himself calls the
            > > > Father
            > > > > > "the only true God;" Christ is not the Father; hence, Christ is
            > > > not
            > > > > > true God.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The response to that argument teaches us something important
            > > > about the
            > > > > > Church's use of "alone," "only," and "all." It goes as follows.
            > > > In 1
            > > > > > John 5, St. John says of Christ, "He is the true God, and
            eternal
            > > > > > life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols." Here the
            same
            > > > > > author who recorded Jesus' statement that the Father is
            > > > the "only"
            > > > > > true God, says of Christ that he is the true God. That taught me
            > > > that
            > > > > > words like "only," "alone," and "all" have to be seen in their
            > > > context
            > > > > > to be understood rightly.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > When we say, to the Theotokos, "all my hope I place on
            > > > thee," "who
            > > > > > alone art the hope of the hopeless," etc. we do *not* mean "All
            > > > my
            > > > > > hope I place on thee, and none on God," or "who alone art the
            > > > hope of
            > > > > > the hopeless, not God." We mean, rather, "I place *no* hope on
            > > > my own
            > > > > > abilities, or those of my friends, or princes, but solely in the
            > > > God
            > > > > > who came to earth *through you*." We mean to take our hope and
            > > > our
            > > > > > trust away from our own wisdom and strength, and to learn to see
            > > > true
            > > > > > wisdom and strength in the "Let it be to me according to your
            > > > word" of
            > > > > > the Mother of God. For he whose cross is alone wisdom and
            > > > strength,
            > > > > > was born of her alone. And we do not take away honor and glory
            > > > from
            > > > > > the Holy Trinity, when we ascribe it to the means by which he
            > > > > > worked/works our salvation--always, of course, as a means. So in
            > > > the
            > > > > > Akathist we say of the Theotokos, "*after God* do all of us for
            > > > refuge
            > > > > > flee unto thee"--not, of course, that there is an "after God,"
            > > > but
            > > > > > that we most fully flee for refuge to him, when that flight
            > > > includes
            > > > > > the means by which he accomplishes our salvation.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The Orthodox have a profoundly developed sense of respect and
            > > > > > reverence for the means of grace. We kiss the cross, and icons--
            > > > even
            > > > > > the right hand of sinful priests, because that hand feeds us
            > > > with the
            > > > > > flesh and blood of God's Son.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > I hope this helps a little. Pray for me.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The unworthy priest,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > Fr. Gregory Hogg
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In
            LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "Andrew"
            > > > > > drew1095950@ wrote:
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > I'll be honest, some of these prayers do make me uneasy. I
            > > > don't
            > > > > mind
            > > > > > > so much asking the intercession of the saints, in fact the
            > > > practice
            > > > > > > seems to beautifully enhance our understanding of the
            > > > communion of
            > > > > > > saints, but saying things like 'all my hope I place in thee'
            > > > and
            > > > > 'have
            > > > > > > mercy on me' just rubs me the wrong way.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Christopher, I appreciate your numerous patristic quotations
            > > > on the
            > > > > > > historical pedigree of the practice. But, for my money, there
            > > > does
            > > > > > > seem to be development over time - from acknowledging that the
            > > > > saints
            > > > > > > pray for us, to asking their intercessions, to saying things
            > > > like
            > > > > > > 'from all dangers that can be do thou deliver us'. There just
            > > > > doesn't
            > > > > > > seem to be any cold hard evidence of robust invocation in the
            > > > 2nd
            > > > > > > century, which makes me question whether it is truly of
            > > > Apostolic
            > > > > > origin.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > One of the reasons, in fact, maybe the primary reason, I
            > > > became a
            > > > > > > Lutheran four years ago (I was raised in an Evangelical home)
            > > > was I
            > > > > > > saw remarkably strong evidence for the real presence of Christ
            > > > in
            > > > > the
            > > > > > > eucharist in the ante-Nicene period. This was compelling to me
            > > > > because
            > > > > > > I just can't swallow the pill that says that stalwarts like
            > > > > Ignatius,
            > > > > > > Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr dropped the ball on such a key
            > > > issue.
            > > > > But
            > > > > > > sadly, I don't see this same smack-you-in-the-face evidence
            > > > for the
            > > > > > > invocation of the saints that I see for the real presence.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Your thoughts?
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Andrew.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > --- In
            LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "Christopher Orr"
            > > > > > > <xcjorr@> wrote:
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *Most Holy Theotokos, save us.* *O Lord Jesus Christ, Son
            > > > of God,
            > > > > > > for the
            > > > > > > > sake of the prayers of Thy most pure Mother, of our holy and
            > > > > > God-bearing
            > > > > > > > fathers and all the saints, have mercy on us. Amen.* O good
            > > > Mother
            > > > > > > of the
            > > > > > > > Good King, most pure and blessed Theotokos Mary, do thou
            > > > pour out
            > > > > > > the mercy
            > > > > > > > of thy Son and our God upon my passionate soul, and by thine
            > > > > > > intercessions
            > > > > > > > guide me unto good works, that I may pass the remaining time
            > > > of my
            > > > > > life
            > > > > > > > without blemish, and attain paradise through thee, O Virgin
            > > > > > > Theotokos, who
            > > > > > > > alone art pure and blessed.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > O Angel of Christ, my holy guardian and protector of my soul
            > > > and
            > > > > body,
            > > > > > > > forgive me all wherein I have sinned this day, and deliver
            > > > me from
            > > > > all
            > > > > > > > opposing evil of mine enemy, lest I anger my God by any sin.
            > > > Pray
            > > > > > > for me, a
            > > > > > > > sinful and unworthy servant, that thou mayest show me forth
            > > > worthy
            > > > > > > of the
            > > > > > > > kindness and mercy of the All-holy Trinity, and of the
            > > > Mother of
            > > > > > my Lord
            > > > > > > > Jesus Christ, and of all the saints. Amen.
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *To Thee, the Champion Leader, we thy servants dedicate a
            > > > feast of
            > > > > > > victory
            > > > > > > > and of thanksgiving as ones rescued out of sufferings, O
            > > > > Theotokos;
            > > > > > > but as
            > > > > > > > thou art one with might which is invincible, from all
            > > > dangers that
            > > > > > > can be do
            > > > > > > > thou deliver us, that we may cry to thee: Rejoice, thou
            Bride
            > > > > > Unwedded!*
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *Most glorious, Ever-Virgin, Mother of Christ God, present
            > > > our
            > > > > > > prayer to thy
            > > > > > > > Son and our God, that through thee He may save our souls.*
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *All my hope I place in thee, O Mother of God: keep me under
            > > > thy
            > > > > > > protection.
            > > > > > > > *
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *O Virgin Theotokos, disdain not me a sinner, needing thy
            > > > help and
            > > > > thy
            > > > > > > > protection, and have mercy on me, for my soul hath hoped in
            > > > thee.*
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *My hope is the Father, my refuge is the Son, my protection
            > > > is the
            > > > > > Holy
            > > > > > > > Spirit: O Holy Trinity, glory to Thee.*
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > *Meet it is in truth to bless thee, O Theotokos, who art
            ever
            > > > > > > blessed and
            > > > > > > > all-blameless, and the Mother of our God. More honorable
            > > > than the
            > > > > > > Cherubim
            > > > > > > > and more glorious without compare than the Seraphim, who
            > > > without
            > > > > > > corruption
            > > > > > > > gavest birth to God the Word, verily Theotokos, we magnify
            > > > thee.*
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > > > > >
            > > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
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