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Re: Two Questions

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  • Lisa
    with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being deeply in the Lutheran-don t-draw-attention-to-yourself mind) what do you non-clergy do
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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      with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being
      deeply in the Lutheran-don't-draw-attention-to-yourself mind)

      what do you non-clergy do when in a situation like going out to lunch
      or dinner with co-workers? Pray silently, cross yourself ...? (and I am
      making a distinction between coworkers and other friends you might
      share meals with)

      Lisa
    • Brian Fink
      Dear Dave, Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore. Brian ... From: daved.driscoll To:
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
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        Dear Dave,
        Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

        Brian


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@...>
        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
        Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

        Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
        younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
        fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
        --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
        wrote:
        >
        > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
        > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
        > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
        >
        > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
        servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
        "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
        "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
        of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
        >
        > Anastasia
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anastasia Theodoridis
        Dave, I ve known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means. ... Anastasia [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
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          Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means.

          :-)

          Anastasia



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Northland Words
          Hello Anastasia- Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn t worried, but concurring. Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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            Hello Anastasia-

            Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
            Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
            insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
            undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
            that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
            probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)



            Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

            Daved



            _____

            From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
            Theodoridis
            Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



            Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
            about what he means.

            :-)

            Anastasia

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Northland Words
            Thanks, Brian- My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides.
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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              Thanks, Brian-

              My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
              that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
              it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
              Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).



              I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
              his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
              Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
              brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
              probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

              Thanks,

              Daved



              _____

              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
              Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



              Dear Dave,
              Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

              Brian

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
              acegroup.cc>
              To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
              t@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

              Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
              younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
              fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
              --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
              wrote:
              >
              > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
              > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
              > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
              >
              > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
              servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
              "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
              "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
              of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
              >
              > Anastasia
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Northland Words
              er . . . I obviously meant his [my dad s] Gracious Creator, not His Gracious Creator. I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet another
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                er . . . I obviously meant "his [my dad's] Gracious Creator," not "His
                Gracious Creator." I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet
                another insult from me. Yikes.

                _____

                From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Northland Words
                Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:06 PM
                To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                Thanks, Brian-

                My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).

                I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                Thanks,

                Daved

                _____

                From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                t@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                t@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                Dear Dave,
                Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                Brian

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                acegroup.cc>
                To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                t@yahoogroups. <mailto:t%40yahoogroups.com> com
                Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                wrote:
                >
                > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                >
                > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                >
                > Anastasia
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Anastasia Theodoridis
                Hi, Dave,, Brian wasn t poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn t feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he s a seminarian at Holy
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                  Hi, Dave,,

                  Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                  I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                  Seven children! You are amazing.

                  love,
                  Anastasia
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Northland Words
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                  Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions


                  Hello Anastasia-

                  Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                  Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                  insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                  undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                  that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                  probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                  Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                  Daved

                  _____

                  From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                  Theodoridis
                  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                  Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                  about what he means.

                  :-)

                  Anastasia

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Brian Fink
                  Dear Dave, I m serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Dave,

                    I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.

                    Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                    One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                    Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                    Brian


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                    Hi, Dave,,

                    Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                    I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                    Seven children! You are amazing.

                    love,
                    Anastasia
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Northland Words
                    To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                    Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                    Hello Anastasia-

                    Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                    Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                    insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                    undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                    that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                    probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                    Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                    Daved

                    _____

                    From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                    Theodoridis
                    Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                    To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                    Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                    about what he means.

                    :-)

                    Anastasia

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • James
                    Dear Brian, My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps you
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
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                      Dear Brian,

                      My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended
                      to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps
                      you will graduate in the same class. Antone is one of four persons
                      from my parish that graduated from Evangel University. Antone even
                      lived on the same exact hall of the same dorm I did, only a few years
                      later.

                      May the joy of the Lord be your strength!

                      James in Des Moines

                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink
                      <brfinkster@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Dave,
                      >
                      > I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have
                      fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as
                      good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.
                      >
                      > Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I
                      came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop
                      and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to
                      let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The
                      assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus
                      told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down
                      back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the
                      faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just
                      me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P
                      >
                      > One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you
                      learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns
                      the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to
                      raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a
                      censor.
                      >
                      > Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and
                      on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a
                      LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help
                      desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and
                      I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been
                      counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to
                      go.
                      >
                      > Brian
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Northland Words
                      Hi Brian- The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I ve never seen it discussed, much,
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 14, 2007
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                        Hi Brian-

                        The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and
                        intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I've never seen it discussed,
                        much, in theological terms, however. It would be, I think, a rich mine. We
                        are often amused by the attempts of children to be earnest and solemn. But
                        in one sense, we are all little children. The link you sent, theoniondome,
                        seems to concur: "God laughs at the foolishness of men (Psalm 2:4); I think
                        it is healthy for us to laugh at ourselves."



                        In another sense, of course, we are His Bride or we are a royal priesthood
                        or co-heirs with Christ. And to the extent that those bolder metaphors
                        apply, laughing at our foibles or treating Him with jocular familiarity may
                        be less appropriate. The awareness of our own weakness, however, can hardly
                        be emphasized too strongly.



                        The job world does sound tough. Ten months to go? I hope you can hang on.



                        Daved





                        _____

                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                        Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:26 AM
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                        Dear Dave,

                        I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at
                        times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to
                        be, but still pretty funny.

                        Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in
                        from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the
                        crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind
                        me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at
                        me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross
                        but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a
                        few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe
                        its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                        One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to
                        swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology
                        about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through
                        a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                        Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays
                        and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping
                        that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network
                        management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I
                        miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to
                        school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                        Brian

                        ----- Original Message ----
                        From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@
                        <mailto:anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net> verizon.net>
                        To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                        t@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                        Hi, Dave,,

                        Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't
                        feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross
                        in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family
                        matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly
                        intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                        I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox
                        among those Lutherans!

                        Seven children! You are amazing.

                        love,
                        Anastasia
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Northland Words
                        To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                        Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                        Hello Anastasia-

                        Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                        Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                        insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                        undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                        that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                        probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                        Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                        Daved

                        _____

                        From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                        Theodoridis
                        Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                        To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                        Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                        about what he means.

                        :-)

                        Anastasia

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • tharman32
                        I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some insight on. Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after the
                        Message 11 of 29 , May 11, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                          insight on.

                          Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                          the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                          sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                          (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                          right words...)

                          Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                          the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                          knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                          Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                          Todd
                        • Fr John Fenton
                          Hi Todd, Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking) You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers. 1. The
                          Message 12 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Todd,

                            Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)

                            You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers.

                            1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original guilt which is also rejected by the Church.

                            2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human characteristic.

                            Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading, let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.




                            Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                            Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                            A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

                            frfenton@...
                            www.holyincarnation.org






                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                            To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                            Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                            I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                            insight on.

                            Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                            the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                            sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                            (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                            right words...)

                            Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                            the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                            knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                            Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                            Todd




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                            Todd, For me the Orthodox perspective is positive. It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin, as the person remains at core God s
                            Message 13 of 29 , May 12, 2008
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                              Todd,

                              For me the Orthodox perspective is positive.

                              It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin,
                              as the person remains at core God's good creation and is therefore
                              capable of restoration.

                              Any other view leads to hatred towards God.

                              God is angry with sin but loves the sinner.
                              In Jesus Christ love overcomes anger.
                              We live in this new contract / testamentum with God.

                              Peter




                              tharman32 <tharman32@...> wrote:
                              I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                              insight on.

                              Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                              the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                              sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                              (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                              right words...)

                              Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                              the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                              knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                              Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                              Todd






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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dave @¿@¬
                              Howdy Todd! Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden! The total depravity of man would seem to contradict the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis. How is man to become
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 19, 2008
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                                Howdy Todd!

                                Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!

                                The total depravity of man would seem to contradict
                                the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis.

                                How is man to "become a god" (lower case "g") unless
                                there is still some element within man that would allow
                                God to work this change within him?

                                Dave


                                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Fr John Fenton
                                <frfenton@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Todd,
                                >
                                > Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)
                                >
                                > You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give
                                straight-forward answers.
                                >
                                > 1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly
                                Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often
                                ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly
                                ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox
                                Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original
                                guilt which is also rejected by the Church.
                                >
                                > 2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God
                                theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a
                                dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human
                                characteristic.
                                >
                                > Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced
                                and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading,
                                let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
                                and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                > A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian
                                Archdiocese of North America
                                >
                                > frfenton@...
                                > www.holyincarnation.org
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message ----
                                > From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                                >
                                > I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer
                                some
                                > insight on.
                                >
                                > Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans
                                after
                                > the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of
                                thier
                                > sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                > (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                > right words...)
                                >
                                > Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory?
                                (ie
                                > the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my
                                limited
                                > knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.
                                >
                                > Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                > Todd
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
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