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Re: Two Questions

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  • James
    I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It seems my Priest said
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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      I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
      so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
      seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
      back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
      this.

      Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
      attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?

      James/JiMi

      p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone


      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jimi@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
      receive
      > from thy
      > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
      > >
      >
      >
      > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
      the
      > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
      It
      > was already familiar.
      >
      > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
      situation
      > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
      us,
      > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
      >
    • Christopher Orr
      I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous. I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin in the
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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        I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.

        I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin
        in the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), to
        believing spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too far
        ahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - we
        can't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter to
        Diognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, but
        are always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. I
        tend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain an
        Orthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make a
        point. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preaching
        without words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;
        he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans in
        prayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.

        That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never be
        dissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on the
        street, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not to
        testify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt to
        make unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.

        Christopher


        On 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:
        >
        > I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
        > so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
        > seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
        > back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
        > this.
        >
        > Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
        > attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?
        >
        > James/JiMi
        >
        > p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone
        >
        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "James" <jimi@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "JWF" <frfenton@>
        > > wrote:
        > > >
        > > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
        > receive
        > > from thy
        > > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
        > the
        > > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
        > It
        > > was already familiar.
        > >
        > > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
        > situation
        > > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
        > us,
        > > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
        Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified. On being a witness... People are rarely converted because a
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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          Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified.
          On being a witness...
          People are rarely converted because a stranger presses the Gospel in their face (or makes the sign of the cross in public). The more likely reason people convert is because they have a friend or family member that can be a constant witness to them. Quite fitting that they learn about the relationship Christ has with men through the relationship of the Christian to themselves.
          Thank you for being friends to me.

          Yours in Christ,
          phos








          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.comFrom: xcjorr@...: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:09 -0500Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions





          I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankinin the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), tobelieving spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too farahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - wecan't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter toDiognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, butare always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. Itend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain anOrthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make apoint. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preachingwithout words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans inprayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never bedissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on thestreet, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not totestify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt tomake unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.ChristopherOn 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:>> I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry> so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It> seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile> back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do> this.>> Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw> attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?>> James/JiMi>> p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone>> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "James" <jimi@...>> wrote:> >> > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "JWF" <frfenton@>> > wrote:> > >> > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:> > >> > >> > >> > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to> receive> > from thy> > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.> > >> >> >> > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in> the> > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.> It> > was already familiar.> >> > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the> situation> > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless> us,> > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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        • Lisa
          with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being deeply in the Lutheran-don t-draw-attention-to-yourself mind) what do you non-clergy do
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
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            with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being
            deeply in the Lutheran-don't-draw-attention-to-yourself mind)

            what do you non-clergy do when in a situation like going out to lunch
            or dinner with co-workers? Pray silently, cross yourself ...? (and I am
            making a distinction between coworkers and other friends you might
            share meals with)

            Lisa
          • Brian Fink
            Dear Dave, Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore. Brian ... From: daved.driscoll To:
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
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              Dear Dave,
              Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

              Brian


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@...>
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

              Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
              younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
              fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
              --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
              wrote:
              >
              > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
              > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
              > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
              >
              > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
              servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
              "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
              "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
              of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
              >
              > Anastasia
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Anastasia Theodoridis
              Dave, I ve known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means. ... Anastasia [Non-text portions of this message have been
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
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                Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means.

                :-)

                Anastasia



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Northland Words
                Hello Anastasia- Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn t worried, but concurring. Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                  Hello Anastasia-

                  Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                  Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                  insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                  undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                  that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                  probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)



                  Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                  Daved



                  _____

                  From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                  Theodoridis
                  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                  Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                  about what he means.

                  :-)

                  Anastasia

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Northland Words
                  Thanks, Brian- My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                    Thanks, Brian-

                    My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                    that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                    it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                    Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).



                    I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                    his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                    Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                    brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                    probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                    Thanks,

                    Daved



                    _____

                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                    Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                    Dear Dave,
                    Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                    Brian

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                    acegroup.cc>
                    To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                    t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                    Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                    younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                    fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                    --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                    >
                    > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                    servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                    "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                    "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                    of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                    >
                    > Anastasia
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Northland Words
                    er . . . I obviously meant his [my dad s] Gracious Creator, not His Gracious Creator. I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet another
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                      er . . . I obviously meant "his [my dad's] Gracious Creator," not "His
                      Gracious Creator." I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet
                      another insult from me. Yikes.

                      _____

                      From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Northland Words
                      Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:06 PM
                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                      Thanks, Brian-

                      My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                      that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                      it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                      Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).

                      I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                      his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                      Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                      brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                      probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                      Thanks,

                      Daved

                      _____

                      From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      t@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                      Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      t@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                      Dear Dave,
                      Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                      Brian

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                      acegroup.cc>
                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                      t@yahoogroups. <mailto:t%40yahoogroups.com> com
                      Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                      Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                      younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                      fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                      --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                      > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                      >
                      > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                      servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                      "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                      "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                      of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                      >
                      > Anastasia
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Anastasia Theodoridis
                      Hi, Dave,, Brian wasn t poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn t feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he s a seminarian at Holy
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
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                        Hi, Dave,,

                        Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                        I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                        Seven children! You are amazing.

                        love,
                        Anastasia
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Northland Words
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                        Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions


                        Hello Anastasia-

                        Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                        Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                        insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                        undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                        that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                        probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                        Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                        Daved

                        _____

                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                        Theodoridis
                        Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                        Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                        about what he means.

                        :-)

                        Anastasia

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Brian Fink
                        Dear Dave, I m serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Dave,

                          I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.

                          Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                          One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                          Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                          Brian


                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                          Hi, Dave,,

                          Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                          I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                          Seven children! You are amazing.

                          love,
                          Anastasia
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Northland Words
                          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                          Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                          Hello Anastasia-

                          Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                          Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                          insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                          undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                          that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                          probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                          Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                          Daved

                          _____

                          From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                          [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                          Theodoridis
                          Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                          Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                          about what he means.

                          :-)

                          Anastasia

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James
                          Dear Brian, My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps you
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
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                            Dear Brian,

                            My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended
                            to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps
                            you will graduate in the same class. Antone is one of four persons
                            from my parish that graduated from Evangel University. Antone even
                            lived on the same exact hall of the same dorm I did, only a few years
                            later.

                            May the joy of the Lord be your strength!

                            James in Des Moines

                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink
                            <brfinkster@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Dave,
                            >
                            > I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have
                            fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as
                            good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.
                            >
                            > Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I
                            came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop
                            and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to
                            let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The
                            assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus
                            told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down
                            back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the
                            faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just
                            me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P
                            >
                            > One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you
                            learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns
                            the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to
                            raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a
                            censor.
                            >
                            > Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and
                            on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a
                            LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help
                            desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and
                            I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been
                            counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to
                            go.
                            >
                            > Brian
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Northland Words
                            Hi Brian- The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I ve never seen it discussed, much,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 14, 2007
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                              Hi Brian-

                              The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and
                              intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I've never seen it discussed,
                              much, in theological terms, however. It would be, I think, a rich mine. We
                              are often amused by the attempts of children to be earnest and solemn. But
                              in one sense, we are all little children. The link you sent, theoniondome,
                              seems to concur: "God laughs at the foolishness of men (Psalm 2:4); I think
                              it is healthy for us to laugh at ourselves."



                              In another sense, of course, we are His Bride or we are a royal priesthood
                              or co-heirs with Christ. And to the extent that those bolder metaphors
                              apply, laughing at our foibles or treating Him with jocular familiarity may
                              be less appropriate. The awareness of our own weakness, however, can hardly
                              be emphasized too strongly.



                              The job world does sound tough. Ten months to go? I hope you can hang on.



                              Daved





                              _____

                              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:26 AM
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                              Dear Dave,

                              I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at
                              times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to
                              be, but still pretty funny.

                              Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in
                              from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the
                              crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind
                              me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at
                              me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross
                              but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a
                              few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe
                              its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                              One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to
                              swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology
                              about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through
                              a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                              Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays
                              and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping
                              that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network
                              management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I
                              miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to
                              school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                              Brian

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@
                              <mailto:anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net> verizon.net>
                              To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                              t@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                              Hi, Dave,,

                              Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't
                              feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross
                              in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family
                              matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly
                              intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                              I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox
                              among those Lutherans!

                              Seven children! You are amazing.

                              love,
                              Anastasia
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Northland Words
                              To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                              Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                              Hello Anastasia-

                              Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                              Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                              insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                              undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                              that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                              probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                              Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                              Daved

                              _____

                              From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                              Theodoridis
                              Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                              To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                              Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                              about what he means.

                              :-)

                              Anastasia

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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • tharman32
                              I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some insight on. Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after the
                              Message 14 of 29 , May 11, 2008
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                                I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                insight on.

                                Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                right words...)

                                Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                Todd
                              • Fr John Fenton
                                Hi Todd, Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking) You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers. 1. The
                                Message 15 of 29 , May 12, 2008
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                                  Hi Todd,

                                  Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)

                                  You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers.

                                  1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original guilt which is also rejected by the Church.

                                  2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human characteristic.

                                  Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading, let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.




                                  Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                  Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                  A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

                                  frfenton@...
                                  www.holyincarnation.org






                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                                  I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                  insight on.

                                  Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                  the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                  sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                  (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                  right words...)

                                  Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                  the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                  knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                  Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                  Todd




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                                  Todd, For me the Orthodox perspective is positive. It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin, as the person remains at core God s
                                  Message 16 of 29 , May 12, 2008
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                                    Todd,

                                    For me the Orthodox perspective is positive.

                                    It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin,
                                    as the person remains at core God's good creation and is therefore
                                    capable of restoration.

                                    Any other view leads to hatred towards God.

                                    God is angry with sin but loves the sinner.
                                    In Jesus Christ love overcomes anger.
                                    We live in this new contract / testamentum with God.

                                    Peter




                                    tharman32 <tharman32@...> wrote:
                                    I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                    insight on.

                                    Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                    the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                    sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                    (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                    right words...)

                                    Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                    the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                    knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                    Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                    Todd






                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Dave @¿@¬
                                    Howdy Todd! Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden! The total depravity of man would seem to contradict the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis. How is man to become
                                    Message 17 of 29 , May 19, 2008
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                                      Howdy Todd!

                                      Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!

                                      The total depravity of man would seem to contradict
                                      the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis.

                                      How is man to "become a god" (lower case "g") unless
                                      there is still some element within man that would allow
                                      God to work this change within him?

                                      Dave


                                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Fr John Fenton
                                      <frfenton@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Todd,
                                      >
                                      > Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)
                                      >
                                      > You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give
                                      straight-forward answers.
                                      >
                                      > 1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly
                                      Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often
                                      ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly
                                      ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox
                                      Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original
                                      guilt which is also rejected by the Church.
                                      >
                                      > 2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God
                                      theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a
                                      dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human
                                      characteristic.
                                      >
                                      > Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced
                                      and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading,
                                      let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
                                      and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                      > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                      > A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian
                                      Archdiocese of North America
                                      >
                                      > frfenton@...
                                      > www.holyincarnation.org
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                      > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                      > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                                      >
                                      > I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer
                                      some
                                      > insight on.
                                      >
                                      > Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans
                                      after
                                      > the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of
                                      thier
                                      > sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                      > (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                      > right words...)
                                      >
                                      > Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory?
                                      (ie
                                      > the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my
                                      limited
                                      > knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                      > Todd
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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