Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

Expand Messages
  • Anastasia Theodoridis
    We pray, Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages. Then, before the Amen, we usually pray
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

      Anastasia




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sr72000
      I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 6, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of
        statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all
        uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a type of statuary.

        One explanation for the preference for icons I heard a while back was
        that they are generally more able than statuary to convey the reality
        that we can't see visibly: the kingdom of heaven. Background colors
        are called to be "heavenly;" rooms are turned inside-out, to portray
        our participation in what is depicted; light radiates FROM Christ and
        the saints, as He shines within them, rather than upon them from outside.

        Randy



        --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Orr"
        <xcjorr@...> wrote:
        >
        > There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
        > examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D
        form just
        > seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology.
        The
        > arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often
        touched on
        > whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
        > what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
        > styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
        > human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
        > going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the
        saints,
        > and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed
        and why
        > a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
        > naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have
        happened
        > had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious
        artists
        > to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
        > centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire,
        not in
        > the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
        > always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
        > ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even
        the Christ
        > Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
        > because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
        > veneration.
        >
        > Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as
        Sinai, e.g.
        > the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any
        statues
        > were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially
        since a
        > statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.
        >
        > Christopher
        >
        >
        > On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > phos,
        > >
        > > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
        > > about
        > > the Orthodox and statues:
        > >
        > > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief
        images
        > > are
        > > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a
        long,
        > > pagan
        > > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
        > > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh
        rather
        > > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
        > > against statuary. The Romans <
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
        > > on
        > > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
        > > statuary among the Roman
        > > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
        > > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
        > > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a
        manner that
        > > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism
        allowed
        > > the
        > > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way,
        making it
        > > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
        > >
        > > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is
        truly a
        > > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
        > > can't
        > > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
        > > have
        > > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
        > >
        > > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I
        am a
        > > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my
        Lutheran
        > > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are
        other
        > > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself
        or with
        > > my
        > > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
        > > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..."
        (as does
        > > Christopher)
        > >
        > > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
        > > prayer
        > > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I
        don't
        > > know
        > > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be
        closer to
        > > Luther's prayer before meals.
        > >
        > > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O
        Lord" for
        > > my
        > > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we
        added
        > > "O
        > > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
        > > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
        > >
        > > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
        > > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
        > > (3d)
        > > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
        online
        > > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
        > > > explanations that would help?
        > > >
        > > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at
        mealtime. I
        > > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not
        asking for
        > > the
        > > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
        > > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
        > > (what do
        > > > *you* pray?).
        > > >
        > > > Yours in Christ
        > > > __________________________________________________________
        > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
        > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us
        > > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
        > > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Christopher Orr
        One thing to note is that there are no shadows in icons and the sky is gold - the Kingdom. Christopher ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 7, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          One thing to note is that there are no shadows in icons and the sky is gold
          - the Kingdom.

          Christopher


          On 11/6/07, sr72000 <stortford@...> wrote:
          >
          > I would agree with these explanations of Orthodox use of
          > statuary...and I would point out that crucifixes are not at all
          > uncommon in Orthodox use, which are a type of statuary.
          >
          > One explanation for the preference for icons I heard a while back was
          > that they are generally more able than statuary to convey the reality
          > that we can't see visibly: the kingdom of heaven. Background colors
          > are called to be "heavenly;" rooms are turned inside-out, to portray
          > our participation in what is depicted; light radiates FROM Christ and
          > the saints, as He shines within them, rather than upon them from outside.
          >
          > Randy
          >
          > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Christopher Orr"
          > <xcjorr@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > There are no canons against the use of statuary, and there are isolated
          > > examples here and there of their use in Orthodox history. The 2-D
          > form just
          > > seemed to avail itself better to the 'depths' of Christian theology.
          > The
          > > arguments back and forth during the Iconoclast Controversy often
          > touched on
          > > whether the divine and human natures could be expressed in art, and then
          > > what that meant for religious art. A 2-D form and realistic portature
          > > styles tend to overemphasize the lesser of the 2 natures in Christ: the
          > > human nature. Byzantine iconography attempts to show us what is really
          > > going on behind 'just' the outward, physical forms of Christ and the
          > saints,
          > > and the events in their lives. this is why perspective is reversed
          > and why
          > > a stylized form was adopted - sculpture just seems to 'realistic' and
          > > naturalistic, though it would be interesting to see what would have
          > happened
          > > had Rodin and modern sculpture been an available tool for religious
          > artists
          > > to the mainstream of Christian art in the first millenium (which was
          > > centered in the centers of civilization in the eastern Roman Empire,
          > not in
          > > the city of Rome and the hinterlands of the Western Empire). It should
          > > always be remembered that naturalistic portraiture was a skill that the
          > > ancients had mastered, e.g., the Egyptian funeral portraits, even
          > the Christ
          > > Pantocrator on Sinai. A more 'primitive' style was purposefully adopted
          > > because it better matched the theology underlying sacred art and its
          > > veneration.
          > >
          > > Just like most early icons (except for those in places such as
          > Sinai, e.g.
          > > the famous Christ Pantocrator in encaustic at St. Catherine's), any
          > statues
          > > were likely destroyed during the iconoclast controversy - especially
          > since a
          > > statue is harder to move and hide than a painted board.
          > >
          > > Christopher
          > >
          > >
          > > On 11/6/07, Rosemarie Lieffring <rose.lieffring@...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > phos,
          > > >
          > > > Here are a couple of sentences I grabbed from a wiki article on icons
          > > > about
          > > > the Orthodox and statues:
          > > >
          > > > In the Eastern Orthodox tradition, only flat images or bas relief
          > images
          > > > are
          > > > used. The Greeks < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks>, having a
          > long,
          > > > pagan
          > > > tradition of statuary, found the sensual quality of three dimensional
          > > > representations did more to glorify the human aspect of the flesh
          > rather
          > > > than the divine nature of the spirit and so prohibitions were created
          > > > against statuary. The Romans <
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire>,
          > > > on
          > > > the other hand, did not adopt these prohibitions and so we still have
          > > > statuary among the Roman
          > > > Catholics< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Church>to this
          > > > day. Because the Greeks rejected statuary, the Byzantine style of
          > > > iconography was developed in which figures were stylized in a
          > manner that
          > > > emphasized their holiness rather than their humanity. Symbolism
          > allowed
          > > > the
          > > > icon to present highly complex material in a very simple way,
          > making it
          > > > possible to educate even the illiterate in theology.
          > > >
          > > > I hope someone here can develop this a little more for you. It is
          > truly a
          > > > shame that someone who's spiritual father is actually an iconographer
          > > > can't
          > > > step up to the plate and do more for you on this subject. Someday I'll
          > > > have
          > > > to learn to express better what I have been taught!
          > > >
          > > > Our home suffers from church divorce, my husband is Lutheran and I
          > am a
          > > > convert to Orthodoxy, so when it comes to mealtime prayers, my
          > Lutheran
          > > > husband does some extemporaneous prayer. Sometimes, when there are
          > other
          > > > Lutherans around, he does "Come Lord Jesus." When I am by myself
          > or with
          > > > my
          > > > Orthodox friends we pray "Lord have mercy, Lord have mercy, Lord have
          > > > mercy. O Lord, bless the food and drink of these thy servants..."
          > (as does
          > > > Christopher)
          > > >
          > > > Our bishop however prays something very similar to the Roman Catholic
          > > > prayer
          > > > we used to pray...."Bless us O Lord and these thy gifts..." but I
          > don't
          > > > know
          > > > his exact wording. It isn't 100% the same...actually it might be
          > closer to
          > > > Luther's prayer before meals.
          > > >
          > > > When our family gets together for Christmas we pray "Bless us O
          > Lord" for
          > > > my
          > > > brother's family, "Come Lord Jesus" for my family and last year we
          > added
          > > > "O
          > > > Lord bless" for me! But before that my brother adds in his own
          > > > extemporaneous prayers. It's a regular smorgasbord of prayer! :)
          > > >
          > > > On 11/6/07, phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com> <
          > > > phos_hilarion@... <phos_hilarion%40hotmail.com>> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
          > > > (3d)
          > > > > as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
          > online
          > > > > somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some resources or
          > > > > explanations that would help?
          > > > >
          > > > > Second, I have been wondering what prayers Orthodox say at
          > mealtime. I
          > > > > don't imagine they pray the ol' "Come Lord Jesus". I am not
          > asking for
          > > > the
          > > > > theoretical side (we could pray any one of these number of prayers -
          > > > > althought that would also be appreciated), but for a practical side
          > > > (what do
          > > > > *you* pray?).
          > > > >
          > > > > Yours in Christ
          > > > > __________________________________________________________
          > > > > Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You!
          > > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us<http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
          > > > <http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us><
          > > > http://www.reallivemoms.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us>
          > > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • krolechka
          In our family, we usually do this: Our Father , Glory... and Lord, bless! with a sign of cross (onto ourselves and onto the food). ... (3d) as they are of
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 7, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            In our family, we usually do this: "Our Father", "Glory..." and "Lord,
            bless!" with a sign of cross (onto ourselves and onto the food).

            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, <phos_hilarion@...> wrote:
            >
            > First, a friend asked me why the Orthodox are not as fond of statues
            (3d) as they are of other two dimensional art. I had found an answer
            online somewhere but since lost the link. Maybe you have some
            resources or explanations that would help?
          • Brian Fink
            What about Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub ? ... From: Anastasia Theodoridis To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com Sent:
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

              We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

              Anastasia

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • daved.driscoll
              Yes. I m not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my wayward younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought back to the fold by such
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@...
                > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                >
                > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                >
                > Anastasia
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • JWF
                In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals: Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy bounty, through
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:



                  Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from thy
                  bounty, through Christ our Lord.



                  Apparently Luther used some close variation of this in his Small Catechism.



                  There is also a longer set of prayers, which vary seasonally, from monastic
                  usage.





                  Fr John W Fenton

                  Priest, Holy Incarnation Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church

                  <mailto:frfenton@...> frfenton@...

                  http://HolyIncarnation.org <http://holyincarnation.org/>

                  <mailto:frfenton@...>

                  _____

                  From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                  Theodoridis
                  Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 4:11 PM
                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions



                  We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy servants, for
                  You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the "Amen," we usually
                  pray some extemporaneous things, always including, "Thank You for Your
                  love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings of that day. "Thank you
                  for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.

                  Anastasia

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • James
                  ... from thy ... I ve used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in the little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out. It
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 8, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive
                    from thy
                    > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                    >


                    I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in the
                    little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out. It
                    was already familiar.

                    First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the situation
                    seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless us,
                    O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                  • James
                    I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It seems my Priest said
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
                      so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
                      seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
                      back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
                      this.

                      Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
                      attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?

                      James/JiMi

                      p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone


                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "James" <jimi@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, "JWF" <frfenton@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
                      receive
                      > from thy
                      > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
                      the
                      > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
                      It
                      > was already familiar.
                      >
                      > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
                      situation
                      > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
                      us,
                      > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                      >
                    • Christopher Orr
                      I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous. I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin in the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.

                        I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankin
                        in the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), to
                        believing spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too far
                        ahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - we
                        can't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter to
                        Diognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, but
                        are always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. I
                        tend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain an
                        Orthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make a
                        point. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preaching
                        without words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;
                        he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans in
                        prayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.

                        That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never be
                        dissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on the
                        street, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not to
                        testify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt to
                        make unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.

                        Christopher


                        On 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry
                        > so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It
                        > seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile
                        > back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do
                        > this.
                        >
                        > Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw
                        > attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?
                        >
                        > James/JiMi
                        >
                        > p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone
                        >
                        > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > "James" <jimi@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > "JWF" <frfenton@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to
                        > receive
                        > > from thy
                        > > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in
                        > the
                        > > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.
                        > It
                        > > was already familiar.
                        > >
                        > > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the
                        > situation
                        > > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless
                        > us,
                        > > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • phos_hilarion@hotmail.com
                        Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified. On being a witness... People are rarely converted because a
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thank you, everyone, for sharing what you pray! As the Desert Fathers say, I was greatly edified.
                          On being a witness...
                          People are rarely converted because a stranger presses the Gospel in their face (or makes the sign of the cross in public). The more likely reason people convert is because they have a friend or family member that can be a constant witness to them. Quite fitting that they learn about the relationship Christ has with men through the relationship of the Christian to themselves.
                          Thank you for being friends to me.

                          Yours in Christ,
                          phos








                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.comFrom: xcjorr@...: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 09:35:09 -0500Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions





                          I make the sign of the cross over my food because it is less conspicuous.I have also been struck by a comment made by the late Fr. John Krestiankinin the book of his letters, "May God Give you Wisdom" (St Herman Press), tobelieving spouses of unbelievers. He said, essentially, don't go on too farahead. The same can be true of unbelievers around us in everyday life - wecan't be see as such odd ducks that we are disregarded. The Letter toDiognetus states clearly that we live as other men in various countries, butare always citizens only of heaven. In the world, but not of the world. Itend to prefer to be as 'normal' as the next guy insofar as I can remain anOrthodox Christian, never hiding, but never affecting differences to make apoint. When St. Anthony the Great walked through Alexandria preachingwithout words, he was simply himself, in his regular, poor clothes, walking;he wasn't prostrating, and crossing, and raising his hands as an orans inprayer, etc. He was simply a Christian, walking.That being said, crossing oneself in prayer at any times should never bedissuaded. I often do so walking down the hallway of my office, on thestreet, etc., but as a means to bless myself with the cross and not totestify to others - and many take such actions to be a conscious attempt tomake unbelievers uncomfortable or as a 'witness'.ChristopherOn 11/9/07, James <jimi@...> wrote:>> I was reminded in an offline note that I probably should not worry> so much about what others think and go ahead and cross myself. It> seems my Priest said essentially the same thing in a sermon awhile> back. May the Lord strengthen my resolve and help me remember to do> this.>> Yeah, I probably still have some of that old Lutheran "don't draw> attention to oneself" mentality going, huh?>> James/JiMi>> p.s. - Thanks to Peter for reminding me I'm not in Lake Woebegone>> --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "James" <jimi@...>> wrote:> >> > --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com<LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>,> "JWF" <frfenton@>> > wrote:> > >> > > In the Western Rite, we commonly say this prayer before meals:> > >> > >> > >> > > Bless us, O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to> receive> > from thy> > > bounty, through Christ our Lord.> > >> >> >> > I've used this prayer for several years now, since I spotted it in> the> > little red prayer book that the Antiochian Archdiocese puts out.> It> > was already familiar.> >> > First I say the Lord's Prayer, crossing myself (unless the> situation> > seems that it would appear a spectacle or showy), and then "Bless> us,> > O Lord.." making the sign of the cross over the food.> >>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook � together at last. �Get it now.
                          http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Lisa
                          with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being deeply in the Lutheran-don t-draw-attention-to-yourself mind) what do you non-clergy do
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 9, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            with respect to blessing food/crossing oneself in public (and being
                            deeply in the Lutheran-don't-draw-attention-to-yourself mind)

                            what do you non-clergy do when in a situation like going out to lunch
                            or dinner with co-workers? Pray silently, cross yourself ...? (and I am
                            making a distinction between coworkers and other friends you might
                            share meals with)

                            Lisa
                          • Brian Fink
                            Dear Dave, Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore. Brian ... From: daved.driscoll To:
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Dave,
                              Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                              Brian


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@...>
                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                              Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                              Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                              younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                              fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                              --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message ----
                              > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                              > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                              > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                              >
                              > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                              servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                              "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                              "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                              of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                              >
                              > Anastasia
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Anastasia Theodoridis
                              Dave, I ve known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means. ... Anastasia [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 10, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry about what he means.

                                :-)

                                Anastasia



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Northland Words
                                Hello Anastasia- Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn t worried, but concurring. Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Anastasia-

                                  Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                  Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                  insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                  undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                  that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                  probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)



                                  Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                  Daved



                                  _____

                                  From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                  Theodoridis
                                  Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                  Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                  about what he means.

                                  :-)

                                  Anastasia

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Northland Words
                                  Thanks, Brian- My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides.
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks, Brian-

                                    My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                                    that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                                    it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                                    Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).



                                    I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                                    his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                                    Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                                    brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                                    probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                                    Thanks,

                                    Daved



                                    _____

                                    From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                    Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                                    To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                    Dear Dave,
                                    Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                    Brian

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                                    acegroup.cc>
                                    To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                    t@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                    Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                    Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                    younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                    fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                    --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message ----
                                    > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                    > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                    > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                    >
                                    > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                    servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                    "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                    "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                    of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                    >
                                    > Anastasia
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Northland Words
                                    er . . . I obviously meant his [my dad s] Gracious Creator, not His Gracious Creator. I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet another
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      er . . . I obviously meant "his [my dad's] Gracious Creator," not "His
                                      Gracious Creator." I trust that God, in His beneficence, will forgive yet
                                      another insult from me. Yikes.

                                      _____

                                      From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Northland Words
                                      Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:06 PM
                                      To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                      Thanks, Brian-

                                      My seven children regularly trundle me off to bed, these days, so I lack
                                      that clarity of humor that sleep deprivation so graciously provides. Enjoy
                                      it. I was glad to see your rubba dub dub (which I understand to be an Early
                                      Slovakian phrase meaning rubba dub dub).

                                      I can still see my father trying to pat his head, rub his stomach, and fold
                                      his hands-all the while addressing this jocular thanksgiving to His Gracious
                                      Creator. At the same time, my "this-church-junk-is-a-bunch-of-stuff"
                                      brother laughing and joining my father in thanksgiving. My note was
                                      probably out of place in this solemn forum. Nonetheless: Yeah God!

                                      Thanks,

                                      Daved

                                      _____

                                      From: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      t@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                      Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 6:14 AM
                                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                      Dear Dave,
                                      Im a sleep deprived father of three... I cant do anything seriously anymore.

                                      Brian

                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: daved.driscoll <NorthlandWords@ <mailto:NorthlandWords%40acegroup.cc>
                                      acegroup.cc>
                                      To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      t@yahoogroups. <mailto:t%40yahoogroups.com> com
                                      Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 1:01:18 PM
                                      Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                      Yes. I'm not sure of the intended tone--but, seriously--my "wayward"
                                      younger 16-year-old little brother was very much brought "back to the
                                      fold" by such informalities. It has its place.
                                      --- In LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com, Brian Fink <brfinkster@ ...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > What about "Ruba dub dub, thanks for the grub"?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                      > From: Anastasia Theodoridis anastasiatheo01@ ...
                                      > To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                      > Sent: Tuesday, November 6, 2007 4:11:01 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Two Questions
                                      >
                                      > We pray, "Christ our God, bless the food and the drink of thy
                                      servants, for You alone are holy, unto ages of ages." Then, before the
                                      "Amen," we usually pray some extemporaneous things, always including,
                                      "Thank You for Your love," and then giving thanks for specific blessings
                                      of that day. "Thank you for Kostas' successful surgery," for example.
                                      >
                                      > Anastasia
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Anastasia Theodoridis
                                      Hi, Dave,, Brian wasn t poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn t feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he s a seminarian at Holy
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 11, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi, Dave,,

                                        Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                        I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                                        Seven children! You are amazing.

                                        love,
                                        Anastasia
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Northland Words
                                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions


                                        Hello Anastasia-

                                        Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                        Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                        insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                        undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                        that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                        probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                        Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                        Daved

                                        _____

                                        From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                        Theodoridis
                                        Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                        To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                        Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                        about what he means.

                                        :-)

                                        Anastasia

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Brian Fink
                                        Dear Dave, I m serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Dave,

                                          I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.

                                          Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                                          One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                                          Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                                          Brian


                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@...>
                                          To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                          Hi, Dave,,

                                          Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                          I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox among those Lutherans!

                                          Seven children! You are amazing.

                                          love,
                                          Anastasia
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: Northland Words
                                          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                          Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                          Hello Anastasia-

                                          Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                          Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                          insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                          undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                          that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                          probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                          Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                          Daved

                                          _____

                                          From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                          [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                          Theodoridis
                                          Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                          To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                          Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                          Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                          about what he means.

                                          :-)

                                          Anastasia

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • James
                                          Dear Brian, My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps you
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 13, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dear Brian,

                                            My friend Antone Meyer is currently a student there. He had intended
                                            to start when you did, but ended up needing to delay a year. Perhaps
                                            you will graduate in the same class. Antone is one of four persons
                                            from my parish that graduated from Evangel University. Antone even
                                            lived on the same exact hall of the same dorm I did, only a few years
                                            later.

                                            May the joy of the Lord be your strength!

                                            James in Des Moines

                                            --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Brian Fink
                                            <brfinkster@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Dave,
                                            >
                                            > I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have
                                            fun at times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as
                                            good as it used to be, but still pretty funny.
                                            >
                                            > Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I
                                            came in from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop
                                            and put the crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to
                                            let everyone behind me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The
                                            assistant ecclesiarch looked at me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus
                                            told us to pick up and carry our cross but you CAN put that one down
                                            back there." My spiritual father and quite a few members of the
                                            faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe its just
                                            me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P
                                            >
                                            > One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you
                                            learn to swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns
                                            the theology about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to
                                            raise money through a Greek festival and get the best deal on a
                                            censor.
                                            >
                                            > Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and
                                            on Mondays and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a
                                            LONG day. I'm hoping that the first part-time job, manageing a help
                                            desk for a 4 person network management company will go full-time and
                                            I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I miss classes dearly. I've been
                                            counting down the months until I go back to school, 2 down and 10 to
                                            go.
                                            >
                                            > Brian
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Northland Words
                                            Hi Brian- The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I ve never seen it discussed, much,
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 14, 2007
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Brian-

                                              The psychology of humor is pretty revealing about human motivation and
                                              intention-about our fears and weaknesses. I've never seen it discussed,
                                              much, in theological terms, however. It would be, I think, a rich mine. We
                                              are often amused by the attempts of children to be earnest and solemn. But
                                              in one sense, we are all little children. The link you sent, theoniondome,
                                              seems to concur: "God laughs at the foolishness of men (Psalm 2:4); I think
                                              it is healthy for us to laugh at ourselves."



                                              In another sense, of course, we are His Bride or we are a royal priesthood
                                              or co-heirs with Christ. And to the extent that those bolder metaphors
                                              apply, laughing at our foibles or treating Him with jocular familiarity may
                                              be less appropriate. The awareness of our own weakness, however, can hardly
                                              be emphasized too strongly.



                                              The job world does sound tough. Ten months to go? I hope you can hang on.



                                              Daved





                                              _____

                                              From: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fink
                                              Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:26 AM
                                              To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions



                                              Dear Dave,

                                              I'm serious about my faith and the Orthodox church. But we do have fun at
                                              times too. Read www.theoniondome.com sometime. Its not as good as it used to
                                              be, but still pretty funny.

                                              Once, I was carrying the crucifix for the Great Procession. When I came in
                                              from the right deacons door, there was no room for me to stop and put the
                                              crucifix back in its holder. So I had to keep going to let everyone behind
                                              me by, carrying this 8 ft tall crucifix. The assistant ecclesiarch looked at
                                              me oddly and told me, "I know Jesus told us to pick up and carry our cross
                                              but you CAN put that one down back there." My spiritual father and quite a
                                              few members of the faculty at HCHC are quite humorous about theology. Maybe
                                              its just me, but the Greeks are FAR funnier than the Russians :-P

                                              One joke about the Orthodox seminaries is that at St. Tikhon's, you learn to
                                              swing a censer properly. At St. Vlad's, a seminarian learns the theology
                                              about swinging a censor. At Holy Cross, we learn how to raise money through
                                              a Greek festival and get the best deal on a censor.

                                              Overall things are going well. I'm working two part time jobs and on Mondays
                                              and Tuesdays, I'm up from 6am to 1am which makes for a LONG day. I'm hoping
                                              that the first part-time job, manageing a help desk for a 4 person network
                                              management company will go full-time and I acan quit the 4-midnight job. I
                                              miss classes dearly. I've been counting down the months until I go back to
                                              school, 2 down and 10 to go.

                                              Brian

                                              ----- Original Message ----
                                              From: Anastasia Theodoridis <anastasiatheo01@
                                              <mailto:anastasiatheo01%40verizon.net> verizon.net>
                                              To: LutheransLookingEas <mailto:LutheransLookingEast%40yahoogroups.com>
                                              t@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 1:25:54 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEast] Re: Two Questions

                                              Hi, Dave,,

                                              Brian wasn't poking fun at God, either, but at us, the Orthodox. He doesn't
                                              feel that free and familiar with God. BTW, he's a seminarian at Holy Cross
                                              in Brookline. Well, his studies there have been interrupted by family
                                              matters, so he's not DOING seminary at the moment, but as he certainly
                                              intends to continue, I suppose we could still call him a seminarian.

                                              I also look forward to your notes. It must be so weird to be an Orthodox
                                              among those Lutherans!

                                              Seven children! You are amazing.

                                              love,
                                              Anastasia
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: Northland Words
                                              To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                              Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 8:54 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                              Hello Anastasia-

                                              Thanks for the note and the concern. I wasn't worried, but concurring.
                                              Freedom and familiarity with Him, while insolent, is perhaps no more
                                              insolent than all our other human attempts to honor Him, even when
                                              undertaken with what we feel as earnest solemnity. It is only by His Grace
                                              that He accepts our solemn prayers rather than laughing at them. (But I
                                              probably chose an unfortunate e-mail to chime in.)

                                              Thanks for all your posts-I read them eagerly.

                                              Daved

                                              _____

                                              From: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                              [mailto:LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Anastasia
                                              Theodoridis
                                              Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 7:47 AM
                                              To: LutheransLookingEas t@yahoogroups. com
                                              Subject: Re: [LutheransLookingEa st] Re: Two Questions

                                              Dave, I've known Brian (via the Internet) enough years not to need worry
                                              about what he means.

                                              :-)

                                              Anastasia

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • tharman32
                                              I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some insight on. Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after the
                                              Message 22 of 29 , May 11, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                insight on.

                                                Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                right words...)

                                                Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                Todd
                                              • Fr John Fenton
                                                Hi Todd, Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking) You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers. 1. The
                                                Message 23 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Todd,

                                                  Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)

                                                  You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give straight-forward answers.

                                                  1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original guilt which is also rejected by the Church.

                                                  2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human characteristic.

                                                  Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading, let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.




                                                  Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                                  Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                                  A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

                                                  frfenton@...
                                                  www.holyincarnation.org






                                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                                  From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                                  To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                                  Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions

                                                  I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                  insight on.

                                                  Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                  the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                  sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                  (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                  right words...)

                                                  Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                  the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                  knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                  Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                  Todd




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • BPeter Brandt-Sorheim
                                                  Todd, For me the Orthodox perspective is positive. It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin, as the person remains at core God s
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , May 12, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Todd,

                                                    For me the Orthodox perspective is positive.

                                                    It does not matter how badly a human person is damaged by error / sin,
                                                    as the person remains at core God's good creation and is therefore
                                                    capable of restoration.

                                                    Any other view leads to hatred towards God.

                                                    God is angry with sin but loves the sinner.
                                                    In Jesus Christ love overcomes anger.
                                                    We live in this new contract / testamentum with God.

                                                    Peter




                                                    tharman32 <tharman32@...> wrote:
                                                    I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer some
                                                    insight on.

                                                    Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans after
                                                    the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of thier
                                                    sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                    (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                    right words...)

                                                    Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory? (ie
                                                    the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my limited
                                                    knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.

                                                    Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                    Todd






                                                    ---------------------------------
                                                    Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Dave @¿@¬
                                                    Howdy Todd! Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden! The total depravity of man would seem to contradict the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis. How is man to become
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 19, 2008
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Howdy Todd!

                                                      Er ist wahrhaftig auferstanden!

                                                      The total depravity of man would seem to contradict
                                                      the Orthodox concepts of sin and theosis.

                                                      How is man to "become a god" (lower case "g") unless
                                                      there is still some element within man that would allow
                                                      God to work this change within him?

                                                      Dave


                                                      --- In LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com, Fr John Fenton
                                                      <frfenton@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi Todd,
                                                      >
                                                      > Christ ist auferstanden! (for the German speaking)
                                                      >
                                                      > You asked two straight-forward questions, so permit me to give
                                                      straight-forward answers.
                                                      >
                                                      > 1. The doctrine of the "total depravity of man" is a distinctly
                                                      Calvinist or Arminian (NOT Armenian) teaching, which is often
                                                      ascribed or held by Lutherans and is understandably but incorrectly
                                                      ascribed to St Augustine, is roundly rejected by the Orthodox
                                                      Church. Among other things, it is built upon the notions of original
                                                      guilt which is also rejected by the Church.
                                                      >
                                                      > 2. While the Scriptures speak of God's anger, the "angry God
                                                      theory" is rejected by the Church. Among other things, it suggests a
                                                      dual personality in God and ascribes to Him a sinful human
                                                      characteristic.
                                                      >
                                                      > Certainly, the answers to these questions are more much nuanced
                                                      and therefore will most likely raise other questions. For reading,
                                                      let me suggest "The Orthodox Way" by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware
                                                      and "Byzantine Theology" by Fr John Meyendorff.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Fr John W Fenton, Priest
                                                      > Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church
                                                      > A Western Rite Parish in the Antiochian Orthodox Christian
                                                      Archdiocese of North America
                                                      >
                                                      > frfenton@...
                                                      > www.holyincarnation.org
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                                      > From: tharman32 <tharman32@...>
                                                      > To: LutheransLookingEast@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 4:34:56 PM
                                                      > Subject: [LutheransLookingEast] Two Questions
                                                      >
                                                      > I have a couple of questions I was hoping the group could offer
                                                      some
                                                      > insight on.
                                                      >
                                                      > Does the Orthodox church beleive in the total depravity of humans
                                                      after
                                                      > the Fall? When I read the saints I see they are well aware of
                                                      thier
                                                      > sinfulness and their need for God's grace, but are we "that bad"?
                                                      > (Sorry to phrase it in such a trivial manner, but I can't find the
                                                      > right words...)
                                                      >
                                                      > Also does the Orthodox church believe in the "angry God" theory?
                                                      (ie
                                                      > the "sinners in the hands of an angry God theology"). From my
                                                      limited
                                                      > knowledge I beleive the answer is a loud no. But I am not sure.
                                                      >
                                                      > Thank you for any insight or recommended readings you suggest!
                                                      > Todd
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.